Kudos to ZOS for the success of changing shards and orbs.

hmsdragonfly · February 2018

Now that the cry of "ZOS killed Templar healers" is over, let's take a moment to appreciate how ZOS brought back class diversity to non-competitive PvE content by making the gap between Templar healers and non-Templar healers much closer.

Before the change of shards and orbs (morrowind patch), non-Templar healers were generally not accepted to even do pledges by the majority of players, if you want to do pledges on a non-Templar healer, you have to grab some friends you know, or you will most likely get kicked from the group by strangers. Their main argument was that non-Templar healers could not provide stamina support to the group and that was true. Could a non-Templar healer do non-competitive PvE content if he was given the chance? He could, but he had to put a lot more efforts than Templar healers. He had to grind master restro just to has a chance to compete against Templar healers who didn't have a master restro. Now the gap is much closer, you still need to put in slightly more time and effort, but you don't need a master restro to compete against a Templar healer who doesn't have a master restro anymore, and people are more likely to accept you that they used to be.

Alcast has released builds for all 3 roles for every class.
https://alcasthq.com/eso-magicka-dragonknight-healer-build-pve/
https://alcasthq.com/eso-nightblade-tank-build-pve/
https://alcasthq.com/eso-magicka-nightblade-healer-build-pve/
https://alcasthq.com/eso-templar-tank-build-pve/
https://alcasthq.com/eso-sorcerer-tank-build-pve/
https://alcasthq.com/eso-magicka-sorcerer-healer-build-pve/

Now that people are starting to accept non-Templar healers and with that, non-DK tanks, the quality of non-competitve PvE content is also going to improve, because it's much more fun to play with different combinations of classes. Example, when it's always a DK tank and a Templar healer, boys it does get bored just from looking at the skills the tank and the healers use alone. Oh yeah the tank is using igneous shield, oh yeah that's spiked armor, oh the healer just did the rune focus + cleasing ritual rotation, oh yeah that's BOL. Now you can see the tank zapping mobs with Boundless Storm and the healer spamming igneous shield in a game, then next game you see the tank sucking mobs with Sap essence and the healer conjuring tree thingies to heal you. I haven't mentioned the playstyle yet. The playstyle of a NB healer is completely different from the playstyle of a Templar healer, so playing with a NB healer feels completely different than playing with a Templar healer. Playing with diverse and different playstyles makes the game much more fun.

And do you know what's the best thing about the diversity of classes? Dungeon Finder's queue time. The main problem why no one queued for tank and healer was that only DK was accepted for tanking and only Templar was accepted for healing, so if you were a sorc or a NB, you had to queue as a DPS, there's no way around it. If you were sick of the queue time, you couldn't just reset your character and made it a healer, no no, there was nothing you could do beside grinding another new character. Given that classes are pretty much equally divided (the number of characters in each class is similar), you can see why there were too few tanks & healers and too many DPS, you had to be a specific class to tank/heal while you could DPS with any of the 4 original classes. Now if you are a NB and you are sick of the queue time, you can just make a healer/tank build and queue as healer/tank, especially big influencers like Alcast are releasing builds for non-Templar healers and non-DK tanks, people are going to start doing it and you will see the queue time's getting shortened as time goes.

Q: "But what's the point of playing a class that is 1% worse than the best class?"
A: 2 things.
1) Does that person enjoy playing the meta class? We are talking about non-competitive PvE content, so enjoyment > effectiveness.
2) The majority of players only have 1 or 2 max level characters, not everyone has the time and effort to grind another character just to try a new role, especially when you don't know if you are going to enjoy that role. So, if you want to try a new role these days, all you need to do is reset your character.
I still suggest everyone to go meta, but if you don't want to, go ahead there's nothing holding you back from doing everything that is not competitive raiding.

Tasear · February 2018

Alcast healer builds are highly questionable.

Edit
On topic, it's been good.

Kwik1 · February 2018

I have been playing a warden healer since Morrowind was released and I have not once been kicked and not once did anyone complain about me not being a Templar.

I do random dailies, n and v pledges, n and v Trials and this also includes non-death and speed runs.

Yes Templars are still better but I do believe it is quite overblown that no one wants non-Templar healers.

I also play a tank and yes I enjoy having a Templar drop shards, but I can sustain my own stamina well enough that I certainly don't depend on it, its more of a QoL thing.

Zer0oo · February 2018

This change killed the uniqueness of the templer class and did just give rise to other problems (tanks do need a bigger stam than mag pool or they get not stam, reduction of synergies,...). Btw templer are still the only class that can give mag dds stam back per synergy.

They just could have given other classes another support skill that would make them on-par with mag templer so you would think about do you want the sustain support of templer or maybe better an offensive support of another class but nerfing things is just easier.

Also templers will always be the best (for endgame) healer as long as they are the only class with a spammable smart burst heal. It makes healing a lot easier and can it can prevent a lot of deaths in trials when they grp is not as stacked or when something goes wrong.

hmsdragonfly · February 2018

Kwik1 wrote: »

I have been playing a warden healer since Morrowind was released and I have not once been kicked and not once did anyone complain about me not being a Templar.

I do random dailies, n and v pledges, n and v Trials and this also includes non-death and speed runs.

Yes Templars are still better but I do believe it is quite overblown that no one wants non-Templar healers.

I also play a tank and yes I enjoy having a Templar drop shards, but I can sustain my own stamina well enough that I certainly don't depend on it, its more of a QoL thing.

Ummm, the change to shards and orbs happened in the morrowind patch so your point is basically my point

Stickbow · February 2018

Great post, IMO. I *like* the change.

I do have a ton of CP>160 toons (9 or 10?), and all are a different playstyle...even the Stam DPS Sorc vs. NB or Magblade vs. Magicka Sorc. I think that's why I keep playing ESO.

My current tank is a DK, healer a templar. I rolled them not long after launch. I have a DPS NB that I tanked with a while, but then the changes you mention happened, and DKs became the tank class, Templars the healbots. I will say I never had anyone I know of drop group because there was a NB tank, but that wasn't really the point of your post.

I'm happy to say I have a 160 magblade that will be a tank soon, now that it's hit vet and I have plenty of DPS toons, and with the new patch and leveling system, I'm going to level a warden as healer.

hmsdragonfly · February 2018

Zer0oo wrote: »

This change killed the uniqueness of the templer class and did just give rise to other problems (tanks do need a bigger stam than mag pool or they get not stam, reduction of synergies,...). Btw templer are still the only class that can give mag dds stam back per synergy.

They just could have given other classes another support skill that would make them on-par with mag templer so you would think about do you want the sustain support of templer or maybe better an offensive support of another class but nerfing things is just easier.

Also templers will always be the best (for endgame) healer as long as they are the only class with a spammable smart burst heal. It makes healing a lot easier and can it can prevent a lot of deaths in trials when they grp is not as stacked or when something goes wrong.

There's no way to make non-Templar healers close to Templar healers in PvE content without giving them an ability to provide stam support. Giving them "an offensive support"? Doesn't work. You always want a sustain support 99% of the time in PvE and there's no way around it. Non-Templar healers need to be able to provide resources to be accepted in PvE content of this game. There's no way around it. No way around it.

What, how is that a nerf, you give other classes an ability to provide stamina to the group, it's a rework. If you think "giving stamina back to the group" should be something unique to Templar, then make taunt exclusive to DK and say taunt is something unique to DK.

Templar healer's uniqueness is that it is easy to play, straight forwards, and extremely efficient. Stamina support as a concept alone is too OP to be something exclusive to Templar. You either remove stamina support all together from the game, or give it to other classes, otherwise Templar will always be the only accepted healer.

Btw, sorc also has spammable smart burst heal, it's twilight matriarch. And i have no problem with Templar being the best healer. Templar being the only healer is a huge problem, but Templar being the best healer is completely fine.

QuebraRegra · February 2018

Zer0oo wrote: »

Btw templer are still the only class that can give mag dds stam back per synergy. .

I think this is false... ENERGY ORBS give back MAG on synergy, and ELEMENTAL DRAIN provides MAG as they attack.

Ermiq · February 2018

I was a DK healer before the Morrowind. Never been kicked from any vet dungeon. I don't even know what were these changes in a Morrowind patch, but thanks ZOS, now I won't be kicked again.

LeagueTroll · February 2018

I think it’s still not enough. What would be good is rebalance night blade and warden skills, so nb healer and warden tank have a place in competitive pve. Nb soul siphon passive gain heal % should be changed to a higher number but only work for aoe heal, so nb will have bigger healing spring number than templar healer but lack burst heal. And warden tree should be nerfed in heal amount, scale to max health, but given a lower cost (Very high auto defence uptime), so warden tank can have more survivability than dk tank but lack utility.

phileunderx2 · February 2018

I wish you could get orbs sooner like level 3 instead of 5 In the undaunted skill line.

exeeter702 · February 2018

LeagueTroll wrote: »

I think it’s still not enough. What would be good is rebalance night blade and warden skills, so nb healer and warden tank have a place in competitive pve. Nb soul siphon passive gain heal % should be changed to a higher number but only work for aoe heal, so nb will have bigger healing spring number than templar healer but lack burst heal. And warden tree should be nerfed in heal amount, scale to max health, but given a lower cost (Very high auto defence uptime), so warden tank can have more survivability than dk tank but lack utility.

This is the main problem... there are too many people that play this game that do not know the finer details when it comes to this subject.

You should understand that NB healers are entirely end game pve viable. Nb HPS is significant and has always been on par with templar. Giving them minor mending last patcglh actually pushed them higher than templars percentage wise. The last thing a nb needs is increased healing throughput.

exeeter702 · February 2018

QuebraRegra wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

Btw templer are still the only class that can give mag dds stam back per synergy. .

I think this is false... ENERGY ORBS give back MAG on synergy, and ELEMENTAL DRAIN provides MAG as they attack.

I believe they were reffering to the secondary resource heal that comes with shards. It heals a small amount of the targets secondary resource which orbs to do not.

However they convientely ignore the fact that sorc and warden healers are the only 2 in game that provide group wide minor intellect. And wardens provide group wide minor endurance which easily matches the paltry secondary resource heal of a templar's illuminous shards.

pod88kk · February 2018

You COULD probably do most dungeons on a dk/sorc healer but it's just that it's so much smoother on a Templar/Warden it's why people prefer them.
Old habits & all that

exeeter702 · February 2018

pod88kk wrote: »

You COULD probably do most dungeons on a dk/sorc healer but it's just that it's so much smoother on a Templar/Warden it's why people prefer them.
Old habits & all that

Nothing smoother about it for dungeons tbh. The only thing rough in the scenario of non templat healers is player ineptitude. Anyone that decides to heal on there respective class will do so handily.

The difficuly curve only comes in when dealing with vet trials.

Zer0oo · February 2018

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

This change killed the uniqueness of the templer class and did just give rise to other problems (tanks do need a bigger stam than mag pool or they get not stam, reduction of synergies,...). Btw templer are still the only class that can give mag dds stam back per synergy.

They just could have given other classes another support skill that would make them on-par with mag templer so you would think about do you want the sustain support of templer or maybe better an offensive support of another class but nerfing things is just easier.

Also templers will always be the best (for endgame) healer as long as they are the only class with a spammable smart burst heal. It makes healing a lot easier and can it can prevent a lot of deaths in trials when they grp is not as stacked or when something goes wrong.

There's no way to make non-Templar healers close to Templar healers in PvE content without giving them an ability to provide stam support. Giving them "an offensive support"? Doesn't work. You always want a sustain support 99% of the time in PvE and there's no way around it. Non-Templar healers need to be able to provide resources to be accepted in PvE content of this game. There's no way around it. No way around it.

What, how is that a nerf, you give other classes an ability to provide stamina to the group, it's a rework. If you think "giving stamina back to the group" should be something unique to Templar, then make taunt exclusive to DK and say taunt is something unique to DK.

Templar healer's uniqueness is that it is easy to play, straight forwards, and extremely efficient. Stamina support as a concept alone is too OP to be something exclusive to Templar. You either remove stamina support all together from the game, or give it to other classes, otherwise Templar will always be the only accepted healer.

Btw, sorc also has spammable smart burst heal, it's twilight matriarch. And i have no problem with Templar being the best healer. Templar being the only healer is a huge problem, but Templar being the best healer is completely fine.

Yes being able to give stam back to the group was op but why did no other class have another interesting support skill for healers?
You could have given a sorc for example a skill that provides multibel group members minor force. Now you would have to decide templer for sustain and sorc for more damage. Or one templer and one sorc healer. You do not need to make taunt exclusive for Dks to make them better tanks they already have shields for the whole group but they decided to make them only useful if you stack in hp(useless for healers) and they have engulfing flame for more damage support. If you would give also the other classes some thing interesting the raid lead would have to make a decision what healer combo would be the best.
Yes nerfing templer was the easy solution but also the one that dumbed down the game by a lot. And created the problems like the lack of synergies in raids.
They merged 4 different synergies into one and want is even worse they completely destroyed the group play function of having different obs in the group to give your group the best sustain and they gave back resources not only to the person that used it. MAKE ORBS GREAT AGAIN

You can not compare the pet heal to breath of life. The pet needs 2 spots, can die(most of the time it will die out of bad luck at times when you need it the most), bugs out and can't be used in some fights (Also the smart heal of pets is not so "smart").

QuebraRegra wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

Btw templer are still the only class that can give mag dds stam back per synergy. .

I think this is false... ENERGY ORBS give back MAG on synergy, and ELEMENTAL DRAIN provides MAG as they attack.

Orbs only give back your max resources and there are some situation where you like to have as mag dd some stam return. It also gave mag tanks harder time (yes they are almost dead but still).

While active, an ally can activate the Holy Shards synergy, restoring 3960 Magicka or Stamina, whichever maximum is higher. They also restore an additional 1980 Magicka or Stamina, whichever maximum is lower.

Osteos · February 2018

It was a good change and you are correct my friend plays a nightblade healer and used to get grief from some people for not being a templar but since Morrowind I haven't seen anyone complain.

exeeter702 · February 2018

Zer0oo wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

This change killed the uniqueness of the templer class and did just give rise to other problems (tanks do need a bigger stam than mag pool or they get not stam, reduction of synergies,...). Btw templer are still the only class that can give mag dds stam back per synergy.

They just could have given other classes another support skill that would make them on-par with mag templer so you would think about do you want the sustain support of templer or maybe better an offensive support of another class but nerfing things is just easier.

Also templers will always be the best (for endgame) healer as long as they are the only class with a spammable smart burst heal. It makes healing a lot easier and can it can prevent a lot of deaths in trials when they grp is not as stacked or when something goes wrong.

There's no way to make non-Templar healers close to Templar healers in PvE content without giving them an ability to provide stam support. Giving them "an offensive support"? Doesn't work. You always want a sustain support 99% of the time in PvE and there's no way around it. Non-Templar healers need to be able to provide resources to be accepted in PvE content of this game. There's no way around it. No way around it.

What, how is that a nerf, you give other classes an ability to provide stamina to the group, it's a rework. If you think "giving stamina back to the group" should be something unique to Templar, then make taunt exclusive to DK and say taunt is something unique to DK.

Templar healer's uniqueness is that it is easy to play, straight forwards, and extremely efficient. Stamina support as a concept alone is too OP to be something exclusive to Templar. You either remove stamina support all together from the game, or give it to other classes, otherwise Templar will always be the only accepted healer.

Btw, sorc also has spammable smart burst heal, it's twilight matriarch. And i have no problem with Templar being the best healer. Templar being the only healer is a huge problem, but Templar being the best healer is completely fine.

Yes being able to give stam back to the group was op but why did no other class have another interesting support skill for healers?
You could have given a sorc for example a skill that provides multibel group members minor force. Now you would have to decide templer for sustain and sorc for more damage. Or one templer and one sorc healer. You do not need to make taunt exclusive for Dks to make them better tanks they already have shields for the whole group but they decided to make them only useful if you stack in hp(useless for healers) and they have engulfing flame for more damage support. If you would give also the other classes some thing interesting the raid lead would have to make a decision what healer combo would be the best.
Yes nerfing templer was the easy solution but also the one that dumbed down the game by a lot. And created the problems like the lack of synergies in raids.
They merged 4 different synergies into one and want is even worse they completely destroyed the group play function of having different obs in the group to give your group the best sustain and they gave back resources not only to the person that used it. MAKE ORBS GREAT AGAIN

You can not compare the pet heal to breath of life. The pet needs 2 spots, can die(most of the time it will die out of bad luck at times when you need it the most), bugs out and can't be used in some fights (Also the smart heal of pets is not so "smart").

QuebraRegra wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

Btw templer are still the only class that can give mag dds stam back per synergy. .

I think this is false... ENERGY ORBS give back MAG on synergy, and ELEMENTAL DRAIN provides MAG as they attack.

Orbs only give back your max resources and there are some situation where you like to have as mag dd some stam return. It also gave mag tanks harder time (yes they are almost dead but still).
While active, an ally can activate the Holy Shards synergy, restoring 3960 Magicka or Stamina, whichever maximum is higher. They also restore an additional 1980 Magicka or Stamina, whichever maximum is lower.

A healer that provides additional raid wide dps has been in the game and is largely ignored. You can spin it any way you like, at the end of the day resource sustain utility was the only determining factor for healers. No vet trial group would even consider anything else, espeically post morrowind. Templar had this monopoly on the tool and it was hardly class defining. Resource utility is a tool for the healer role just as taunting is a tool for the tank role, class identity has nothing to do with it.

Also you GROSSLY underestimate the reliablity of matriarch. It does not die in vet trails. In fact one of alcasts trail friends just primary sorc healed vet HOF. There are plenty of other examples and they are not exceptions to any rule.

Zer0oo · February 2018

exeeter702 wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

This change killed the uniqueness of the templer class and did just give rise to other problems (tanks do need a bigger stam than mag pool or they get not stam, reduction of synergies,...). Btw templer are still the only class that can give mag dds stam back per synergy.

They just could have given other classes another support skill that would make them on-par with mag templer so you would think about do you want the sustain support of templer or maybe better an offensive support of another class but nerfing things is just easier.

Also templers will always be the best (for endgame) healer as long as they are the only class with a spammable smart burst heal. It makes healing a lot easier and can it can prevent a lot of deaths in trials when they grp is not as stacked or when something goes wrong.

There's no way to make non-Templar healers close to Templar healers in PvE content without giving them an ability to provide stam support. Giving them "an offensive support"? Doesn't work. You always want a sustain support 99% of the time in PvE and there's no way around it. Non-Templar healers need to be able to provide resources to be accepted in PvE content of this game. There's no way around it. No way around it.

What, how is that a nerf, you give other classes an ability to provide stamina to the group, it's a rework. If you think "giving stamina back to the group" should be something unique to Templar, then make taunt exclusive to DK and say taunt is something unique to DK.

Templar healer's uniqueness is that it is easy to play, straight forwards, and extremely efficient. Stamina support as a concept alone is too OP to be something exclusive to Templar. You either remove stamina support all together from the game, or give it to other classes, otherwise Templar will always be the only accepted healer.

Btw, sorc also has spammable smart burst heal, it's twilight matriarch. And i have no problem with Templar being the best healer. Templar being the only healer is a huge problem, but Templar being the best healer is completely fine.

Yes being able to give stam back to the group was op but why did no other class have another interesting support skill for healers?
You could have given a sorc for example a skill that provides multibel group members minor force. Now you would have to decide templer for sustain and sorc for more damage. Or one templer and one sorc healer. You do not need to make taunt exclusive for Dks to make them better tanks they already have shields for the whole group but they decided to make them only useful if you stack in hp(useless for healers) and they have engulfing flame for more damage support. If you would give also the other classes some thing interesting the raid lead would have to make a decision what healer combo would be the best.
Yes nerfing templer was the easy solution but also the one that dumbed down the game by a lot. And created the problems like the lack of synergies in raids.
They merged 4 different synergies into one and want is even worse they completely destroyed the group play function of having different obs in the group to give your group the best sustain and they gave back resources not only to the person that used it. MAKE ORBS GREAT AGAIN

You can not compare the pet heal to breath of life. The pet needs 2 spots, can die(most of the time it will die out of bad luck at times when you need it the most), bugs out and can't be used in some fights (Also the smart heal of pets is not so "smart").

QuebraRegra wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

Btw templer are still the only class that can give mag dds stam back per synergy. .

I think this is false... ENERGY ORBS give back MAG on synergy, and ELEMENTAL DRAIN provides MAG as they attack.

Orbs only give back your max resources and there are some situation where you like to have as mag dd some stam return. It also gave mag tanks harder time (yes they are almost dead but still).
While active, an ally can activate the Holy Shards synergy, restoring 3960 Magicka or Stamina, whichever maximum is higher. They also restore an additional 1980 Magicka or Stamina, whichever maximum is lower.

A healer that provides additional raid wide dps has been in the game and is largely ignored. You can spin it any way you like, at the end of the day resource sustain utility was the only determining factor for healers. No vet trial group would even consider anything else, espeically post morrowind. Templar had this monopoly on the tool and it was hardly class defining. Resource utility is a tool for the healer role just as taunting is a tool for the tank role, class identity has nothing to do with it.

Also you GROSSLY underestimate the reliablity of matriarch. It does not die in vet trails. In fact one of alcasts trail friends just primary sorc healed vet HOF. There are plenty of other examples and they are not exceptions to any rule.

I would take any healer that would be able to give all range dds minor force in a trial but there is NO choice between anything interesting that other classes can offer that would you make to trade the healing toolkit that templer have for it.

I know exactly how reliable the pets are since i have done on my sorc all trial including all hm. They die, need 2 slot, bug out and if you die you have to re-summon( they have cast time and they also bug out if you summon to fast) them(also i think the heal target primary the caster) and breath of life is so much better.
That does not mean you can not heal a vet trial on a sorc and you do not even need class skills to heal any vet trial just using the healing staff skills is enough. But if you look at what would be the best healer for your raid group you almost always will go with a templer. (For some very special cases there "nb healers" are would be better but not for any normal raid group)

Radiance · February 2018

I think people rely too heavily on healers for resource sustainability. Use more heavy attacks or reconsider your build or something... One thing I can't quite understand about being a Top DPS is when it comes at the cost of survivability, what good is hitting hard if you're down after being hit... And unless we're talking prime game time Vet Boss battles, a tank that can't survive on their own is not a tank...

My most class oriented Healer is definitely my Templar because a number of their skills are perfect for the role. My warden started off as a healer but I branched off into Magicka Ice tanking and settled there comfortably because it is much easier IMO. Warden does NOT have a reliable burst heal. They have that Angled mushroom spore heal that increases Mag/Stam regen by 10% or w/e which is nice but is limited in range. Their Healing Vines requires targeting the person you want to heal as opposed to Templar's Breath of Life automatically healing the lowest health ally. That can be remedied by using the Resto Staff Shield skill with almost any Class in the Healing Role...

BUT what is the point of being a particular class if you're going to be using nothing but Weapon skills... It just doesn't make any sense... Unless I'm running Vet, I try my best to focus on Class skills sometimes even at the cost of what's considered the most efficient.

You should be constantly Switching Sets and Altering LoadOuts for the situation at hand and for personal enjoyment when you're not pushing end game content.

Tasear · February 2018

Zer0oo wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

This change killed the uniqueness of the templer class and did just give rise to other problems (tanks do need a bigger stam than mag pool or they get not stam, reduction of synergies,...). Btw templer are still the only class that can give mag dds stam back per synergy.

They just could have given other classes another support skill that would make them on-par with mag templer so you would think about do you want the sustain support of templer or maybe better an offensive support of another class but nerfing things is just easier.

Also templers will always be the best (for endgame) healer as long as they are the only class with a spammable smart burst heal. It makes healing a lot easier and can it can prevent a lot of deaths in trials when they grp is not as stacked or when something goes wrong.

There's no way to make non-Templar healers close to Templar healers in PvE content without giving them an ability to provide stam support. Giving them "an offensive support"? Doesn't work. You always want a sustain support 99% of the time in PvE and there's no way around it. Non-Templar healers need to be able to provide resources to be accepted in PvE content of this game. There's no way around it. No way around it.

What, how is that a nerf, you give other classes an ability to provide stamina to the group, it's a rework. If you think "giving stamina back to the group" should be something unique to Templar, then make taunt exclusive to DK and say taunt is something unique to DK.

Templar healer's uniqueness is that it is easy to play, straight forwards, and extremely efficient. Stamina support as a concept alone is too OP to be something exclusive to Templar. You either remove stamina support all together from the game, or give it to other classes, otherwise Templar will always be the only accepted healer.

Btw, sorc also has spammable smart burst heal, it's twilight matriarch. And i have no problem with Templar being the best healer. Templar being the only healer is a huge problem, but Templar being the best healer is completely fine.

Yes being able to give stam back to the group was op but why did no other class have another interesting support skill for healers?
You could have given a sorc for example a skill that provides multibel group members minor force. Now you would have to decide templer for sustain and sorc for more damage. Or one templer and one sorc healer. You do not need to make taunt exclusive for Dks to make them better tanks they already have shields for the whole group but they decided to make them only useful if you stack in hp(useless for healers) and they have engulfing flame for more damage support. If you would give also the other classes some thing interesting the raid lead would have to make a decision what healer combo would be the best.
Yes nerfing templer was the easy solution but also the one that dumbed down the game by a lot. And created the problems like the lack of synergies in raids.
They merged 4 different synergies into one and want is even worse they completely destroyed the group play function of having different obs in the group to give your group the best sustain and they gave back resources not only to the person that used it. MAKE ORBS GREAT AGAIN

You can not compare the pet heal to breath of life. The pet needs 2 spots, can die(most of the time it will die out of bad luck at times when you need it the most), bugs out and can't be used in some fights (Also the smart heal of pets is not so "smart").

QuebraRegra wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

Btw templer are still the only class that can give mag dds stam back per synergy. .

I think this is false... ENERGY ORBS give back MAG on synergy, and ELEMENTAL DRAIN provides MAG as they attack.

Orbs only give back your max resources and there are some situation where you like to have as mag dd some stam return. It also gave mag tanks harder time (yes they are almost dead but still).
While active, an ally can activate the Holy Shards synergy, restoring 3960 Magicka or Stamina, whichever maximum is higher. They also restore an additional 1980 Magicka or Stamina, whichever maximum is lower.

A healer that provides additional raid wide dps has been in the game and is largely ignored. You can spin it any way you like, at the end of the day resource sustain utility was the only determining factor for healers. No vet trial group would even consider anything else, espeically post morrowind. Templar had this monopoly on the tool and it was hardly class defining. Resource utility is a tool for the healer role just as taunting is a tool for the tank role, class identity has nothing to do with it.

Also you GROSSLY underestimate the reliablity of matriarch. It does not die in vet trails. In fact one of alcasts trail friends just primary sorc healed vet HOF. There are plenty of other examples and they are not exceptions to any rule.

I would take any healer that would be able to give all range dds minor force in a trial but there is NO choice between anything interesting that other classes can offer that would you make to trade the healing toolkit that templer have for it.

I know exactly how reliable the pets are since i have done on my sorc all trial including all hm. They die, need 2 slot, bug out and if you die you have to re-summon( they have cast time and they also bug out if you summon to fast) them(also i think the heal target primary the caster) and breath of life is so much better.
That does not mean you can not heal a vet trial on a sorc and you do not even need class skills to heal any vet trial just using the healing staff skills is enough. But if you look at what would be the best healer for your raid group you almost always will go with a templer. (For some very special cases there "nb healers" are would be better but not for any normal raid group)

Nah warden has highest numbers for burst,

Tasear · February 2018

pod88kk wrote: »

You COULD probably do most dungeons on a dk/sorc healer but it's just that it's so much smoother on a Templar/Warden it's why people prefer them.
Old habits & all that

Really now, I am going say best dungeon healer certainly not Templar. They aren't adaptive healer class.

Feanor · February 2018

The change would have been fine if they had not left Templars in the broken state their class is.

hmsdragonfly · February 2018

Zer0oo wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

This change killed the uniqueness of the templer class and did just give rise to other problems (tanks do need a bigger stam than mag pool or they get not stam, reduction of synergies,...). Btw templer are still the only class that can give mag dds stam back per synergy.

They just could have given other classes another support skill that would make them on-par with mag templer so you would think about do you want the sustain support of templer or maybe better an offensive support of another class but nerfing things is just easier.

Also templers will always be the best (for endgame) healer as long as they are the only class with a spammable smart burst heal. It makes healing a lot easier and can it can prevent a lot of deaths in trials when they grp is not as stacked or when something goes wrong.

There's no way to make non-Templar healers close to Templar healers in PvE content without giving them an ability to provide stam support. Giving them "an offensive support"? Doesn't work. You always want a sustain support 99% of the time in PvE and there's no way around it. Non-Templar healers need to be able to provide resources to be accepted in PvE content of this game. There's no way around it. No way around it.

What, how is that a nerf, you give other classes an ability to provide stamina to the group, it's a rework. If you think "giving stamina back to the group" should be something unique to Templar, then make taunt exclusive to DK and say taunt is something unique to DK.

Templar healer's uniqueness is that it is easy to play, straight forwards, and extremely efficient. Stamina support as a concept alone is too OP to be something exclusive to Templar. You either remove stamina support all together from the game, or give it to other classes, otherwise Templar will always be the only accepted healer.

Btw, sorc also has spammable smart burst heal, it's twilight matriarch. And i have no problem with Templar being the best healer. Templar being the only healer is a huge problem, but Templar being the best healer is completely fine.

Yes being able to give stam back to the group was op but why did no other class have another interesting support skill for healers?
You could have given a sorc for example a skill that provides multibel group members minor force. Now you would have to decide templer for sustain and sorc for more damage. Or one templer and one sorc healer. You do not need to make taunt exclusive for Dks to make them better tanks they already have shields for the whole group but they decided to make them only useful if you stack in hp(useless for healers) and they have engulfing flame for more damage support. If you would give also the other classes some thing interesting the raid lead would have to make a decision what healer combo would be the best.
Yes nerfing templer was the easy solution but also the one that dumbed down the game by a lot. And created the problems like the lack of synergies in raids.
They merged 4 different synergies into one and want is even worse they completely destroyed the group play function of having different obs in the group to give your group the best sustain and they gave back resources not only to the person that used it. MAKE ORBS GREAT AGAIN

You can not compare the pet heal to breath of life. The pet needs 2 spots, can die(most of the time it will die out of bad luck at times when you need it the most), bugs out and can't be used in some fights (Also the smart heal of pets is not so "smart").

All other classes already have interesting skills that can be used by healers. Sorc has nice burst heal (pet), ward (minor intellect), helps with the damage with implosion and more slots for utilities with a 3rd bar. DK provides nice group utilities like igneous shield, group weapon/spell power buff and Engulfing Flames. NB deals damage while healing, with sap essence, refreshing parth and healthy offering. The thing is, stam support is what healers have to provide for the tanks, just like how taunt is what tanks have to provide, there's nothing you can add to make non-Templar healers generally acceptable in PvE content without giving them stam support.

"You could have given a sorc for example a skill that provides multibel group members minor force. Now you would have to decide templer for sustain and sorc for more damage"
-> Again. Doesn't work. People still go for stam sustain 99% of the time.

"You do not need to make taunt exclusive for Dks to make them better tanks they already have shields for the whole group but they decided to make them only useful if you stack in hp(useless for healers) and they have engulfing flame for more damage support."
-> You misunderstood what I said. Keeping stam support exclusive to Templar is like making taunt exclusive to DKs. And as you said, DKs don't need taunt to be better tanks, they are already better tanks and with that, Templars don't need stam support to be better healers, they are already better healers.

"If you would give also the other classes some thing interesting the raid lead would have to make a decision what healer combo would be the best."
-> Again, there's nothing you can give other classes to make them generally accepted unless you give them stam support. You have to give them stam support, there's no way around it, there's nothing else you can give them. If stam support is exclusive to Templar, there's no decision to be made, always pick Templar healers.

"Yes nerfing templer was the easy solution but also the one that dumbed down the game by a lot. And created the problems like the lack of synergies in raids."
---> Again, that wasn't a nerf, that was a rework, you give other classes something that shouldn't be exclusive to Templar.
Keeping stam support exclusively to Templar is what dumbed the game down, not the other way around.

"You can not compare the pet heal to breath of life. The pet needs 2 spots, can die(most of the time it will die out of bad luck at times when you need it the most), bugs out and can't be used in some fights (Also the smart heal of pets is not so "smart")."
-> Sorc healer 101, Command Pet + Right Click, and your pet will not die, ever.
It doesn't matter how many slots pet takes, your statement that Templar is the only class with burst heal is still incorrect.

LadyNalcarya · February 2018

LeagueTroll wrote: »

I think it’s still not enough. What would be good is rebalance night blade and warden skills, so nb healer and warden tank have a place in competitive pve. Nb soul siphon passive gain heal % should be changed to a higher number but only work for aoe heal, so nb will have bigger healing spring number than templar healer but lack burst heal. And warden tree should be nerfed in heal amount, scale to max health, but given a lower cost (Very high auto defence uptime), so warden tank can have more survivability than dk tank but lack utility.

Thing is, unlike nbs, templar dds arent very popular now, and pretty much any group would prefer a dk tank. So healing is currently the only good role for magplar. I mean, yes, you can do decent-ish damage with force pulce/Asylum destro, but most of trial groups will prefer a nb or sorc. Class-defining dd build (dual wield melee magicka) is pretty much dead at this point.
Pve magwardens are in even worse spot now... Well, I guess we both know that. Just look at leaderboards and see how many wardens are here... And how many of them are dds.
Sorc and nb are superior dd classes, so it doesnt make any sense to make them the best at healing as well. If they do that and wont boost magplar/magden dps performance, it will just kill 2 classes. Much diversity.
The idea of any class being viable at any role isnt bad. But it just wont work when there's such a huge disparity in dps classes.

LeagueTroll · February 2018

exeeter702 wrote: »

LeagueTroll wrote: »

I think it’s still not enough. What would be good is rebalance night blade and warden skills, so nb healer and warden tank have a place in competitive pve. Nb soul siphon passive gain heal % should be changed to a higher number but only work for aoe heal, so nb will have bigger healing spring number than templar healer but lack burst heal. And warden tree should be nerfed in heal amount, scale to max health, but given a lower cost (Very high auto defence uptime), so warden tank can have more survivability than dk tank but lack utility.

This is the main problem... there are too many people that play this game that do not know the finer details when it comes to this subject.

You should understand that NB healers are entirely end game pve viable. Nb HPS is significant and has always been on par with templar. Giving them minor mending last patcglh actually pushed them higher than templars percentage wise. The last thing a nb needs is increased healing throughput.

Yes it does, the nb need a significant healing output advantage to cover the lack of burst heal, on par is not good enough.

LeagueTroll · February 2018

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

LeagueTroll wrote: »

I think it’s still not enough. What would be good is rebalance night blade and warden skills, so nb healer and warden tank have a place in competitive pve. Nb soul siphon passive gain heal % should be changed to a higher number but only work for aoe heal, so nb will have bigger healing spring number than templar healer but lack burst heal. And warden tree should be nerfed in heal amount, scale to max health, but given a lower cost (Very high auto defence uptime), so warden tank can have more survivability than dk tank but lack utility.

Thing is, unlike nbs, templar dds arent very popular now, and pretty much any group would prefer a dk tank. So healing is currently the only good role for magplar. I mean, yes, you can do decent-ish damage with force pulce/Asylum destro, but most of trial groups will prefer a nb or sorc. Class-defining dd build (dual wield melee magicka) is pretty much dead at this point.
Pve magwardens are in even worse spot now... Well, I guess we both know that. Just look at leaderboards and see how many wardens are here... And how many of them are dds.
Sorc and nb are superior dd classes, so it doesnt make any sense to make them the best at healing as well. If they do that and wont boost magplar/magden dps performance, it will just kill 2 classes. Much diversity.
The idea of any class being viable at any role isnt bad. But it just wont work when there's such a huge disparity in dps classes.

I am not supporting any class any role. I am only supporting for every role, at least 2 good class.

Zer0oo · February 2018

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

This change killed the uniqueness of the templer class and did just give rise to other problems (tanks do need a bigger stam than mag pool or they get not stam, reduction of synergies,...). Btw templer are still the only class that can give mag dds stam back per synergy.

They just could have given other classes another support skill that would make them on-par with mag templer so you would think about do you want the sustain support of templer or maybe better an offensive support of another class but nerfing things is just easier.

Also templers will always be the best (for endgame) healer as long as they are the only class with a spammable smart burst heal. It makes healing a lot easier and can it can prevent a lot of deaths in trials when they grp is not as stacked or when something goes wrong.

There's no way to make non-Templar healers close to Templar healers in PvE content without giving them an ability to provide stam support. Giving them "an offensive support"? Doesn't work. You always want a sustain support 99% of the time in PvE and there's no way around it. Non-Templar healers need to be able to provide resources to be accepted in PvE content of this game. There's no way around it. No way around it.

What, how is that a nerf, you give other classes an ability to provide stamina to the group, it's a rework. If you think "giving stamina back to the group" should be something unique to Templar, then make taunt exclusive to DK and say taunt is something unique to DK.

Templar healer's uniqueness is that it is easy to play, straight forwards, and extremely efficient. Stamina support as a concept alone is too OP to be something exclusive to Templar. You either remove stamina support all together from the game, or give it to other classes, otherwise Templar will always be the only accepted healer.

Btw, sorc also has spammable smart burst heal, it's twilight matriarch. And i have no problem with Templar being the best healer. Templar being the only healer is a huge problem, but Templar being the best healer is completely fine.

Yes being able to give stam back to the group was op but why did no other class have another interesting support skill for healers?
You could have given a sorc for example a skill that provides multibel group members minor force. Now you would have to decide templer for sustain and sorc for more damage. Or one templer and one sorc healer. You do not need to make taunt exclusive for Dks to make them better tanks they already have shields for the whole group but they decided to make them only useful if you stack in hp(useless for healers) and they have engulfing flame for more damage support. If you would give also the other classes some thing interesting the raid lead would have to make a decision what healer combo would be the best.
Yes nerfing templer was the easy solution but also the one that dumbed down the game by a lot. And created the problems like the lack of synergies in raids.
They merged 4 different synergies into one and want is even worse they completely destroyed the group play function of having different obs in the group to give your group the best sustain and they gave back resources not only to the person that used it. MAKE ORBS GREAT AGAIN

You can not compare the pet heal to breath of life. The pet needs 2 spots, can die(most of the time it will die out of bad luck at times when you need it the most), bugs out and can't be used in some fights (Also the smart heal of pets is not so "smart").

All other classes already have interesting skills that can be used by healers. Sorc has nice burst heal (pet), ward (minor intellect), helps with the damage with implosion and more slots for utilities with a 3rd bar. DK provides nice group utilities like igneous shield, group weapon/spell power buff and Engulfing Flames. NB deals damage while healing, with sap essence, refreshing parth and healthy offering. The thing is, stam support is what healers have to provide for the tanks, just like how taunt is what tanks have to provide, there's nothing you can add to make non-Templar healers generally acceptable in PvE content without giving them stam support.

"You could have given a sorc for example a skill that provides multibel group members minor force. Now you would have to decide templer for sustain and sorc for more damage"
-> Again. Doesn't work. People still go for stam sustain 99% of the time.

"You do not need to make taunt exclusive for Dks to make them better tanks they already have shields for the whole group but they decided to make them only useful if you stack in hp(useless for healers) and they have engulfing flame for more damage support."
-> You misunderstood what I said. Keeping stam support exclusive to Templar is like making taunt exclusive to DKs. And as you said, DKs don't need taunt to be better tanks, they are already better tanks and with that, Templars don't need stam support to be better healers, they are already better healers.

"If you would give also the other classes some thing interesting the raid lead would have to make a decision what healer combo would be the best."
-> Again, there's nothing you can give other classes to make them generally accepted unless you give them stam support. You have to give them stam support, there's no way around it, there's nothing else you can give them. If stam support is exclusive to Templar, there's no decision to be made, always pick Templar healers.

"Yes nerfing templer was the easy solution but also the one that dumbed down the game by a lot. And created the problems like the lack of synergies in raids."
---> Again, that wasn't a nerf, that was a rework, you give other classes something that shouldn't be exclusive to Templar.
Keeping stam support exclusively to Templar is what dumbed the game down, not the other way around.

"You can not compare the pet heal to breath of life. The pet needs 2 spots, can die(most of the time it will die out of bad luck at times when you need it the most), bugs out and can't be used in some fights (Also the smart heal of pets is not so "smart")."
-> Sorc healer 101, Command Pet + Right Click, and your pet will not die, ever.
It doesn't matter how many slots pet takes, your statement that Templar is the only class with burst heal is still incorrect.

I give up. It seems utterly pointless to argue with you.
But hey you know everything better so go a head and prove to the world pets do not die or bug out in trial or dungeons.

I am all for making other classes more interesting for support roles like tank or healer but nerfing on class to make other classes relatively to that class better is not a good solution in my opinion. It will just end in all classes being some generic copy of each other with absolutely no class identity.
Maybe they nerf dk tanks next and remove anyway of getting stam back while and till 5 sec after block, remove ing shield and selfhealing to make other class tanks better. Would you also call it a great change to make other tank classes more viable?

Also there is nothing that triggers me more than calling the orb nerf a good thing. The way orbs worked before morrowind was a way better for group play.

Alcast · February 2018

@hmsdragonfly is right, those orbs definitely helped non-templar healers quite a bit & the repentance nerf is also partially responsible I guess.

All classes can do everything, the question is just how good & is it accepted by the playerbase? Every class can do every role in any dungeon or trial, whether be it normal or veteran. Most raidgroups want an optimal setup to achieve the highest score possible with their group.

Mentality is the biggest problem and not always at fault. I mean when you have an unexperienced healer on a templar, he will prolly still perform decent because BoL spam button. Put the same player on a Nightblade or DK Healer and he might perform poorly. People are just afraid if they see people on weird setups that they are not having a lot of experience and boot them before they have a chance to proof themself.

My recommendation is still that players should join a guild as soon as possible. There is guilds on most servers that have a huge memberpool and players are friendly and like to help each other.

I also still do hope that the skill advisor will highly improve the quality of LFG Dungeon Finder Groups/ Players. Maybe now newish players are a little less lost with this very complicated game.

Mureel · February 2018

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

This change killed the uniqueness of the templer class and did just give rise to other problems (tanks do need a bigger stam than mag pool or they get not stam, reduction of synergies,...). Btw templer are still the only class that can give mag dds stam back per synergy.

They just could have given other classes another support skill that would make them on-par with mag templer so you would think about do you want the sustain support of templer or maybe better an offensive support of another class but nerfing things is just easier.

Also templers will always be the best (for endgame) healer as long as they are the only class with a spammable smart burst heal. It makes healing a lot easier and can it can prevent a lot of deaths in trials when they grp is not as stacked or when something goes wrong.

There's no way to make non-Templar healers close to Templar healers in PvE content without giving them an ability to provide stam support. Giving them "an offensive support"? Doesn't work. You always want a sustain support 99% of the time in PvE and there's no way around it. Non-Templar healers need to be able to provide resources to be accepted in PvE content of this game. There's no way around it. No way around it.

What, how is that a nerf, you give other classes an ability to provide stamina to the group, it's a rework. If you think "giving stamina back to the group" should be something unique to Templar, then make taunt exclusive to DK and say taunt is something unique to DK.

Templar healer's uniqueness is that it is easy to play, straight forwards, and extremely efficient. Stamina support as a concept alone is too OP to be something exclusive to Templar. You either remove stamina support all together from the game, or give it to other classes, otherwise Templar will always be the only accepted healer.

Btw, sorc also has spammable smart burst heal, it's twilight matriarch. And i have no problem with Templar being the best healer. Templar being the only healer is a huge problem, but Templar being the best healer is completely fine.

I don't mind it much but HEALER SPOTS are already limited - I don't see why any class SHOULD heal unless 1/3 your skills are made for it.

It often makes me think people picked DPS classes, sucked at DPS, and decided to 'JUST' be a healer. Then they suck at that too.

Sorta off topic because templars can be as bad as anyone:
I go to pugs a LOT on my Mag Sorc and lol. I've never met an exceptionally good healer (as in does anything but spam mutagen and very slim maybe some orbs and if Templar ritual) yet - pugs are pugs but still, how bad do you have to be to refuse to use Ele Drain and Combat Prayer? Prettty fkn bad if you ask me.

I know there are exceptions, but I haven't met them. Most of them act like you're asking to bone their husbands if you say: Do you use ele drain?

josiahva · February 2018

The OP's premise is laughable. People have been healing and tanking on other classes since the game was released without issue. I have NEVER kicked a healer or a tank for not being a specific class. As a tank, I don't rely on shards...why would I when a heavy attack restores just as much? If its there...great, if not...I don't care. The ONLY templar healer skill that is better than other classes if I am tanking is ritual..and that is solely situational for the purify effect, for instance...fighting Velidreth, I like having the purify available to get rid of her poison, I can do without it, but for that fight in particular its better with it. On the other hand...in that particular fight a nightblade healer outperforms a templar healer overall(aside from the purify) because they do more off-DPS and the arena is small. The morrowinf changes had NOTHING to do with less played classes being more acceptable. People play DK tanks and Templar healers not because they are forced to, but because they are the best choices for those roles. I play sorc tanks, and warden tanks, and templar tanks, and nightblade tanks...but DK still does the job best, and so that is the one I play most often. I swap to my sorc tank when I want a tank with more mobility and that is just more fun to play...I swap to my templar tank(or warden tank) when I want a tank that can off-heal well enough not to need a healer for the run, but for a run that needs a dedicated tank...DK is still king...just like templar is still king for a dedicated healer.