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It's time to unlink max attribute from damage
Lynx7386
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This needs to be done. Dumping your points into magicka or stamina should not result in a direct increase to your weapon and spell damage. This system is the bane of hybrid builds, it's the bane of tanks for overland content, and it's an archaic system that makes absolutely no sense with the modern state of the game.
Fix it via the following:
-Attributes no longer effect actual damage.
-Increase the resource pool gain of attributes, enchants, gear, and sets that increase magicka or stamina.
-Work the lost damage from the above changes into base weapon and spell damage, and into set bonuses.
A player can now put points into attributes, or use attribute focused sets, for the sole purpose of having a larger resource pool to utilize for damage, healing, or utility. Tanks will have slightly more resources and slightly better damage potential when soloing, hybrids will no longer suffer from splitting their attributes between two pools and having drastically less damage than others, and we can finally stop pushing pure stat sets as the only viable means of increasing damage output.
Edited by Lynx7386 on February 3, 2018 4:03PM Fix it via the following:
-Attributes no longer effect actual damage.
-Increase the resource pool gain of attributes, enchants, gear, and sets that increase magicka or stamina.
-Work the lost damage from the above changes into base weapon and spell damage, and into set bonuses.
A player can now put points into attributes, or use attribute focused sets, for the sole purpose of having a larger resource pool to utilize for damage, healing, or utility. Tanks will have slightly more resources and slightly better damage potential when soloing, hybrids will no longer suffer from splitting their attributes between two pools and having drastically less damage than others, and we can finally stop pushing pure stat sets as the only viable means of increasing damage output.
PS4 / NA
M'asad - Khajiit Nightblade - Healer
Pakhet - Khajiit Dragonknight - Tank
Raksha - Khajiit Sorcerer - Stamina DPS
Bastet - Khajiit Templar - Healer
Leonin - Khajiit Warden - Tank
M'asad - Khajiit Nightblade - Healer
Pakhet - Khajiit Dragonknight - Tank
Raksha - Khajiit Sorcerer - Stamina DPS
Bastet - Khajiit Templar - Healer
Leonin - Khajiit Warden - Tank
52
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Solariken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Yep. But they won't because they want their 5 crappy classes to artificially behave like 10 crappy classes.14 -
Goshua✭✭✭✭A little late for such a change I would think. Also not convinced it would be any worse or better than it is.6 -
Ermiq✭✭✭✭✭
✭Agree. That is why I think ESO's building system is very boring and not flexible. Need more damage? Get as much magicka as possible and here you are a quite good DD. The same for stamina builds. Want to make a hybrid build? Are you mad?One of the two of us definitely has gone mad. It only remains to define whether this one is the whole world or just me.
PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!
Sick&tired of being kicked off from your house when you complete a dungeon? ComingBackHome addon is what you need!
Me is russian little bad in english :b3 -
Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭IMHO it should only give you max resources to use skills but it should have no affect on dmg those skill do. This is what weapon & spell dmg are for.
If max stats absolutely "has to" scale with something it could be skill cost. That way "specialized builds" (pure magicka or stamina) would still be worth something (cheaper skills) - while hybrid builds could use both magicka & stamina pool for skills.11 -
Maura_Neysa✭✭✭✭✭This needs to be done. Dumping your points into magicka or stamina should not result in a direct increase to your weapon and spell damage. This system is the bane of hybrid builds, it's the bane of tanks for overland content, and it's an archaic system that makes absolutely no sense with the modern state of the game.
Fix it via the following:
-Attributes no longer effect actual damage.
-Increase the resource pool gain of attributes, enchants, gear, and sets that increase magicka or stamina.
-Work the lost damage from the above changes into base weapon and spell damage, and into set bonuses.
A player can now put points into attributes, or use attribute focused sets, for the sole purpose of having a larger resource pool to utilize for damage, healing, or utility. Tanks will have slightly more resources and slightly better damage potential when soloing, hybrids will no longer suffer from splitting their attributes between two pools and having drastically less damage than others, and we can finally stop pushing pure stat sets as the only viable means of increasing damage output.
Wont hybrids be just as hampered by not having both spell and weapon damage? Yes then is that ONE set, but why try and run a hybrid if you're going to pigeon hole yourself like that?A little late for such a change I would think. Also not convinced it would be any worse or better than it is.
My thoughts too.Agree. That is why I think ESO's building system is very boring and not flexible. Need more damage? Get as much magicka as possible and here you are a quite good DD. The same for stamina builds. Want to make a hybrid build? Are you mad?
I'm getting more out of Juli + lnfabable than Juli + Necro on my Magden, so pure stat stacking isn't everything.Edited by Maura_Neysa on February 3, 2018 3:43PMMaiden Maura - Xbox NA
Warden Ice Tank (By far my favorite) -RIP #NerfmireStormproof, Shehai Shatterer, Mageslayer(solo tanked), Ophidian Overlord, Assistant Alienist, Boethiah's Scythe,Maw of Lorkhaj Conqueror, Divayth Fyr's CoadjutorDragon Knight Healer (Since Homestead)
MajorShehai Shatterer, Mageslayer,Warden 2x Bow DPSStormproof, Shehai Shatterer, Mageslayer, Ophidian Overlord, Assistant Alienist, Boethiah's Scythe, Maw of Lorkhaj Conqueror, Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor, Sunspire Saint,Others
PvP StamDen, Warden Healer, MagDen, Stamplar, StamSorc, DK Failed Attempt, NB Failed Attempt
Playing BiS isn't impressive, playing unique at BiS lvl, THAT's impressive.1 -
Stovahkiin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Agreed. The last hybrid build I worked on was fun, but overall it failed miserably in the dps department compared to my other chars.Beware the battle cattle, but don't *fear* the battle cattle!3 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭1. Dumping everything into mag/stam does not affect weapon and spell damage as OP suggests in his second sentence. That stat fills a separate part of the formula.
2. This will not make hybrids equal to pure builds either. They will still be weaker as the entire system requires choices that affect physical and magicka based damage. There is so much more involved, lets not forget the most obvious, max weapon/spell damage competing with each other. It would give the difference with these damage stats much more meaning. This alone would do little, if anything at all.
3. Having attribute not affecting actual damage would work in favor of hard to kill builds in PvP. Who in their right mind would stack magika when one could simply stack health since max stats would become meaningless. That would be a hoot in Cyrodiil and BGs.
4. The last point OP makes is as incorrect as the previous ones. Players can still stack weapon/spell damage in the world OP envisions so really little to no difference. It would actually make things worse for Hybrids.
There is only one thing that would make hybrids equal. I do not think Zos is interested in a complete redesign of the game. Well, not to the extent I am referring to.6 -
CyrusArya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Why should a diversified build hit as hard as a specialized one? Dead horse. No.7 -
RinaldoGandolphi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭We used to have this....it was called soft caps and hard caps via diminishing returns
That boat has sailed, they won’t go back to it despite pvp being in a much better place back then. Just gotta accept the way it is now, the games skills have been designed around max stat increasing damage. I don’t see them changing that now.Rinaldo Gandolphi-Breton Sorcerer Daggerfall Covenant
Juste Gandolphi Dark Elf Templar Daggerfall Covenant
Richter Gandolphi - Dark Elf Dragonknight Daggerfall Covenant
Mathias Gandolphi - Breton Nightblade Daggerfall Covenant
RinaldoGandolphi - High Elf Sorcerer Aldmeri Dominion
Officer Fire and Ice
Co-GM - MVP
Sorcerer's - The ONLY class in the game that is punished for using its class defining skill (Bolt Escape)
"Here in his shrine, that they have forgotten. Here do we toil, that we might remember. By night we reclaim, what by day was stolen. Far from ourselves, he grows ever near to us. Our eyes once were blinded, now through him do we see. Our hands once were idle, now through them does he speak. And when the world shall listen, and when the world shall see, and when the world remembers, that world will cease to be. - Miraak4 -
Spacemonkey✭✭✭✭✭While the solution is not as straightforward and actually pretty complicated, I 200% agree that things as of now where just stacking max stat basically gives you one of the most viable builds without you having to take care of anything else, is just plain stupid.
Every single new player in the last year that I've helped out had a double take when understanding that their attribute choice when leveling up should be always the exact same stat. Why on earth make us choose every level, when having us choose every 10 levels would be fine (for those few 50/50 or 80/20 builds etc...)
Attributes in ESO, at the moment, are kind of a joke. I would love to see 3 extra attributes (or something of the sort) with weapon efficiency, spell efficiency, resistance being added. And all of them be bigger boosts. (to compensate from 3 attributes to 6). Magicka/Stam would no longer do anything but up your resource pool and regen. Weap eff and Spell eff would up your respective base dmg stats and Resistance would do just that. This would open up to much more meaningful choices when leveling up and at LEAST glass cannons would have to stack in 2 different attributes (dmg and resource) to stay viable.4 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭no.. Hybrids doing as much damage as one trick pony builds shouldn't be a thing.1 -
deepseamk20b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Judging by some of your answers I’m 99% sure some of you have never played an MMO...Hey everyone! Look! It's a signature!1 -
dday3six✭✭✭✭✭
✭Why are some people so hung up on hamfisting hybrids into a game that’s not designed to support them?
Let’s rebuild the game.
Why?
So hybrids can be a thing.
This line of thinking just isn’t reasonable.1 -
Lynx7386✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Why are some people so hung up on hamfisting hybrids into a game that’s not designed to support them?
Let’s rebuild the game.
Why?
So hybrids can be a thing.
This line of thinking just isn’t reasonable.
probably because every elder scrolls game before ESO prioritized hybrid builds above pure builds.PS4 / NA
M'asad - Khajiit Nightblade - Healer
Pakhet - Khajiit Dragonknight - Tank
Raksha - Khajiit Sorcerer - Stamina DPS
Bastet - Khajiit Templar - Healer
Leonin - Khajiit Warden - Tank8 -
Kwik1✭✭✭✭Why are some people so hung up on hamfisting hybrids into a game that’s not designed to support them?
Let’s rebuild the game.
Why?
So hybrids can be a thing.
This line of thinking just isn’t reasonable.
probably because every elder scrolls game before ESO prioritized hybrid builds above pure builds.
From day ONE, ESO has said they are NOT elder scrolls. They have been very clear that this game would be significantly different while trying to keep the lore.
If you want to play Elder Scrolls, play Skyrim. If you want to play ESO, play ESO.3 -
Solariken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Why are some people so hung up on hamfisting hybrids into a game that’s not designed to support them?
Let’s rebuild the game.
Why?
So hybrids can be a thing.
This line of thinking just isn’t reasonable.
probably because every elder scrolls game before ESO prioritized hybrid builds above pure builds.
From day ONE, ESO has said they are NOT elder scrolls. They have been very clear that this game would be significantly different while trying to keep the lore.
If you want to play Elder Scrolls, play Skyrim. If you want to play ESO, play ESO.
Not true, not even close. The early game encouraged hybridization - do you not remember the soft caps?3 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Why should a diversified build hit as hard as a specialized one? Dead horse. No.
What are you talking about? Did you even read the first post of the thread? Specialized builds would still exist (and probably hit harder) based on sets that players wear.
There's no dead horse here. You're ignoring what the OP is talking about and making things up.11 -
dday3six✭✭✭✭✭
✭Why are some people so hung up on hamfisting hybrids into a game that’s not designed to support them?
Let’s rebuild the game.
Why?
So hybrids can be a thing.
This line of thinking just isn’t reasonable.
probably because every elder scrolls game before ESO prioritized hybrid builds above pure builds.
From day ONE, ESO has said they are NOT elder scrolls. They have been very clear that this game would be significantly different while trying to keep the lore.
If you want to play Elder Scrolls, play Skyrim. If you want to play ESO, play ESO.
Not true, not even close. The early game encouraged hybridization - do you not remember the soft caps?
Stamina morphs also weren’t a thing with softcaps, so the hybridization came from if you used sns, dw or bow, but even with softcaps pure builds were still better. The term Elder Staves Online came from the soft cap era because focused Magicka builds were better that trying to run Stamina. The only ‘hybrid’ builds, and I use the term very loosely, were DK who used SnS in PVP to take advantage of dynamic ult gen.
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Princess_Ciri✭✭✭✭✭attributes or stats it doesn't matter, hybrids are never as strong as specialised builds, this is the rule of pretty much any RPG or MMO.GM and raid leader of Hot Girls Play DPS, the cutest guild EU0 -
Solariken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Why are some people so hung up on hamfisting hybrids into a game that’s not designed to support them?
Let’s rebuild the game.
Why?
So hybrids can be a thing.
This line of thinking just isn’t reasonable.
probably because every elder scrolls game before ESO prioritized hybrid builds above pure builds.
From day ONE, ESO has said they are NOT elder scrolls. They have been very clear that this game would be significantly different while trying to keep the lore.
If you want to play Elder Scrolls, play Skyrim. If you want to play ESO, play ESO.
Not true, not even close. The early game encouraged hybridization - do you not remember the soft caps?
Stamina morphs also weren’t a thing with softcaps, so the hybridization came from if you used sns, dw or bow, but even with softcaps pure builds were still better. The term Elder Staves Online came from the soft cap era because focused Magicka builds were better that trying to run Stamina. The only ‘hybrid’ builds, and I use the term very loosely, were DK who used SnS in PVP to take advantage of dynamic ult gen.
You couldn't even run a pure build with those soft caps without wasting stats. Also it was Elder Staves Online because some genius at ZOS decided it was a good idea to put the best damage amping passive in the Resto Staff skill line.2 -
dday3six✭✭✭✭✭
✭Why are some people so hung up on hamfisting hybrids into a game that’s not designed to support them?
Let’s rebuild the game.
Why?
So hybrids can be a thing.
This line of thinking just isn’t reasonable.
probably because every elder scrolls game before ESO prioritized hybrid builds above pure builds.
Games are oft celebrated for changing the mold, trying to be different and not just re-releasing with a new coat of paint. Further ESO is not a single player TES title, and it’s an MMO and thus treated differently. Even if it weren’t, the other TES games still rewarded players more for focusing their builds. You’re confusing the ability to try everything with hybrids actually being prioritized.
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Kwik1✭✭✭✭Why are some people so hung up on hamfisting hybrids into a game that’s not designed to support them?
Let’s rebuild the game.
Why?
So hybrids can be a thing.
This line of thinking just isn’t reasonable.
probably because every elder scrolls game before ESO prioritized hybrid builds above pure builds.
From day ONE, ESO has said they are NOT elder scrolls. They have been very clear that this game would be significantly different while trying to keep the lore.
If you want to play Elder Scrolls, play Skyrim. If you want to play ESO, play ESO.
Not true, not even close. The early game encouraged hybridization - do you not remember the soft caps?
I'm not saying it didn't...I'm saying please don't compare ESO to Elder scrolls games since ZOS has been very clear from the beginning that ESO would be substantially different.
I won't argue that hybrids weren't encouraged or better early on, but IMHO a hybrid should not even come close to the dmg output of a specialized class.0 -
dday3six✭✭✭✭✭
✭Why are some people so hung up on hamfisting hybrids into a game that’s not designed to support them?
Let’s rebuild the game.
Why?
So hybrids can be a thing.
This line of thinking just isn’t reasonable.
probably because every elder scrolls game before ESO prioritized hybrid builds above pure builds.
From day ONE, ESO has said they are NOT elder scrolls. They have been very clear that this game would be significantly different while trying to keep the lore.
If you want to play Elder Scrolls, play Skyrim. If you want to play ESO, play ESO.
Not true, not even close. The early game encouraged hybridization - do you not remember the soft caps?
Stamina morphs also weren’t a thing with softcaps, so the hybridization came from if you used sns, dw or bow, but even with softcaps pure builds were still better. The term Elder Staves Online came from the soft cap era because focused Magicka builds were better that trying to run Stamina. The only ‘hybrid’ builds, and I use the term very loosely, were DK who used SnS in PVP to take advantage of dynamic ult gen.
You couldn't even run a pure build with those soft caps without wasting stats. Also it was Elder Staves Online because some genius at ZOS decided it was a good idea to put the best damage amping passive in the Resto Staff skill line.
Softcaps didn’t force player to use both a Stamina weapon and a Magicka weapon. Most used double Staves, that’s what pure meant when softcaps were a thing.0 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Princess_Ciri wrote: »attributes or stats it doesn't matter, hybrids are never as strong as specialised builds, this is the rule of pretty much any RPG or MMO.
Hybrids still wouldn't be as strong as specialized builds, which would still exist based because players simply specialize their set and glyph choices.0 -
Kwik1✭✭✭✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Princess_Ciri wrote: »attributes or stats it doesn't matter, hybrids are never as strong as specialised builds, this is the rule of pretty much any RPG or MMO.
Hybrids still wouldn't be as strong as specialized builds, which would still exist based because players simply specialize their set and glyph choices.
My issue would be that they would be too close to each other as far as DPS output though. A hybrid in most MMO's is a class that does multiple things ok but doesn't do any single thing well.
I will bet anything that if we started down this path then suddenly every hybrid build would be whining it isn't doing enough dmg to be viable in trials.
A pure spec class should always be 30-40% more dps output in MY opinion more then any hybrid and I highly doubt the player base would accept it. DDO had hybrids of sorts and the glass cannon pure specs could almost double the dps but also died a whole lot quicker if you got swarmed, while the hybrid could survive a lot more while sacrificing damage.
Do you really think the ESO player base would be happy to accept a dmg penalty for a little more survivability? Hybrids would be kicked from groups because people in this game care about DPS output more then anything more then any other MMO I have ever played.
You can kind of make a tank hybrid here and kind of make a healer hybrid and both can be viable for a lot of things, but DPS? I don't see that. People would always want more damage until it equaled the pure class.0
