Why does the vampire skill line only have two active skills?

ANGEL_BtVS · January 2018

For each of the main classes, there are three skill lines with each line having five active skills plus an ultimate. The werewolf skill line also has five active skills plus an ultimate. Same with the Undaunted skill line (but no ultimate). The fighters guild and mages guild have four active skills plus an ultimate. For vampires, there are only two active skills plus an ultimate. Do you think ZOS will ever expand the vampire skill line? Perhaps as part of a vampire/lycan focused DLC this could happen (along with a re-work of the lycan skill line - I don't have any werewolves so can't comment but I've heard it needs it). Any cool ideas for new vampire skills that could be added? What triggered this question was seeing the Vampire Lord rings at the golden vendor this past weekend - it made me start wondering what it would take to make that set useful.

DoctorESO · January 2018

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Spacemonkey · January 2018

why do armor skill lines only have 1 active skill
way more people use armor and want armor than people use or want vampire.

just sayin...

Runefang · January 2018

Because Vampires are more the passive-aggressive types.

Mic1007 · January 2018

Vampire Ultimate: Lamae's Cry

Call to your blood-kin, summoning two Vampire allies to your aid, and bolstering the damage of your own abilities by 35% for 10 seconds. The allies will deal x damage based on your highest Max Stat and will stay summoned until they die.

Morph: Fiendish Cry - Morph Effect: The Vampire allies are now Blood-Fiends, and their strikes also deal DoT blood damage that heals them. Your own buff is the same as base.

Morph: Lamae's Wrath - Morph Effect: Your nearby allies and Vampire summons also benefit from the 35% damage bonus, which now lasts 20 seconds.

Uriel_Nocturne · January 2018

Just an unfortunate effect of the way the game has evolved.

I wish Vamps had a fully-fleshed out 5-active-Skill tree.

Oh to dream...

TheShadowScout · January 2018

ANGEL_BtVS wrote: »

For each of the main classes, there are three skill lines with each line having five active skills plus an ultimate. The werewolf skill line also has five active skills plus an ultimate. Same with the Undaunted skill line (but no ultimate). The fighters guild and mages guild have four active skills plus an ultimate. For vampires, there are only two active skills plus an ultimate...

...which is still more skills then thieves and dark brothers get!

Also, the only one truly comparable in that lineup is the werewolves, and those are quite limited by being able to -only- use WW skills when gone furry, while vamps can still use every normal skill as well. And that's why the woofers have five skills, and the bloodsuckers have only two.

ANGEL_BtVS wrote: »

Do you think ZOS will ever expand the vampire skill line?

Possibly. But not too likely.

They might add minor stuff, but they are unlikely to want to spend a lot of effort on vampires when they have to get profit in form of DLC sales from it - thuis they will make DLCs aimed at -everyone- instead of just the vampire lovers.

Still, they could always sneak in something... a three-sided mixed PvE/PvP DLC with a Vampires-vs-Werewolfes-vs-Hunters theme... I could see that being interesting for -everyone-, and it would be a nifty place to rework the monsters a bit.

I definitely think the vampires need at least one more skill - "Masquerade", lowering their vampy appereance by one stage (meaning, looking mortal at stage 1, and thus become undetectable as vampires, which would be quite important if there were PvP vampire hunters in the house)
And then... make it a crime to be a monster, cry havoc and let loose the guards of justice, let no vampire or werewolf who lets them see their unnatural nature be safe from stake or silver!

I also really, really want more of the classic clichees.

Vampires that have trouble with running water (reduced wimming speed) and get weaker in sunlight (like the original dracula, not burning to ash, but a lessening of supernatural power)?
Werewolves that are affected by the moons (reduced transformation time in new moon nights, increased time in full moon nights - possibly even no transforming on former but a mandatory transformation on latter)?
Vampires that might frenzy and auto-attack innocents is they get too blood starved when all those blood bags are wandering within reach?
Werewolves that need to hunt some "worthy prey" each full moon (or face an game-month long "unfed" debuff)?
Vampires that can charm innocents to allow feeding without assault, and possibly even make some alchemically preserved blood for emergency snackings? And maybe even a "feed from willing player" option?
Werewolves who have some hint to their nature in humanoid form as well (unibrows, increased hirsuteness, yellow eyes...)?
Vampires who can find company at a special "vampire nest" location (reuse the one from the intruductionary quest, as shared instance?) where they can socialize with other vampires, buy from vampire-only vendors, sip from blood dolls and compare poetry?
Werewolves who can ignore all the normal wolves in the wild, because they would not -dare- attack someone that dangerously powerful smelling?

Stuff like that anyhow...

DoctorESO · January 2018

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idk · January 2018

The vamp line really only needs 2 skills and an ultimate. The line isn't designed nor intended for someone to use and slot only vampire skills.

It will not be expanded as long as vampire keeps its current design. The only reason Sos added more skills to WW is because they can only use WW skills when in WW form. It started with fewer.

Also, a vampire and or WW DLC is extremely unlikely since it's to narrowly focused. We have lots of areas to add to the game before Zos has need to think of adding such things.

geonsocal · January 2018

Official Zos Reply:

kargen27 · January 2018

DoctorESO wrote: »

TheShadowScout wrote: »

ANGEL_BtVS wrote: »

For each of the main classes, there are three skill lines with each line having five active skills plus an ultimate. The werewolf skill line also has five active skills plus an ultimate. Same with the Undaunted skill line (but no ultimate). The fighters guild and mages guild have four active skills plus an ultimate. For vampires, there are only two active skills plus an ultimate...

...which is still more skills then thieves and dark brothers get!

Also, the only one truly comparable in that lineup is the werewolves, and those are quite limited by being able to -only- use WW skills when gone furry, while vamps can still use every normal skill as well. And that's why the woofers have five skills, and the bloodsuckers have only two.

ANGEL_BtVS wrote: »

Do you think ZOS will ever expand the vampire skill line?

Possibly. But not too likely.

They might add minor stuff, but they are unlikely to want to spend a lot of effort on vampires when they have to get profit in form of DLC sales from it - thuis they will make DLCs aimed at -everyone- instead of just the vampire lovers.

Still, they could always sneak in something... a three-sided mixed PvE/PvP DLC with a Vampires-vs-Werewolfes-vs-Hunters theme... I could see that being interesting for -everyone-, and it would be a nifty place to rework the monsters a bit.

I definitely think the vampires need at least one more skill - "Masquerade", lowering their vampy appereance by one stage (meaning, looking mortal at stage 1, and thus become undetectable as vampires, which would be quite important if there were PvP vampire hunters in the house)
And then... make it a crime to be a monster, cry havoc and let loose the guards of justice, let no vampire or werewolf who lets them see their unnatural nature be safe from stake or silver!

I also really, really want more of the classic clichees.
Vampires that have trouble with running water (reduced wimming speed) and get weaker in sunlight (like the original dracula, not burning to ash, but a lessening of supernatural power)?

Werewolves that are affected by the moons (reduced transformation time in new moon nights, increased time in full moon nights - possibly even no transforming on former but a mandatory transformation on latter)?

Vampires that might frenzy and auto-attack innocents is they get too blood starved when all those blood bags are wandering within reach?

Werewolves that need to hunt some "worthy prey" each full moon (or face an game-month long "unfed" debuff)?

Vampires that can charm innocents to allow feeding without assault, and possibly even make some alchemically preserved blood for emergency snackings? And maybe even a "feed from willing player" option?

Werewolves who have some hint to their nature in humanoid form as well (unibrows, increased hirsuteness, yellow eyes...)?

Vampires who can find company at a special "vampire nest" location (reuse the one from the intruductionary quest, as shared instance?) where they can socialize with other vampires, buy from vampire-only vendors, sip from blood dolls and compare poetry?

Werewolves who can ignore all the normal wolves in the wild, because they would not -dare- attack someone that dangerously powerful smelling?

Stuff like that anyhow...

Really interesting ideas! (This and your other threads.) You should be a developer at ZOS and implement these things!

Funny I was thinking by all that is pure and holy do not let these changes happen. Most would be a nightmare for game play. Want to go do some writs better feed first so you don't kill an NPC trying to draft a dagger. Group wants you to join them for a trial? Sorry can't go until the moon is full. Want to go out and collect some drafting material? Well to bad the sun is out. THe ideas may sound good but they would wreck the game. Really wreck the game.

TheShadowScout · January 2018

kargen27 wrote: »

Most would be a nightmare for game play.

Sez you!

kargen27 wrote: »

Want to go do some writs better feed first so you don't kill an NPC trying to draft a dagger.

So? That's the price of becoming a bloodsucking fiend!
But... the vampire sanctuary sould have all the crafting stations, and no issues with feeding on the blood dolls, so...

kargen27 wrote: »

Group wants you to join them for a trial? Sorry can't go until the moon is full.

Read the ideas again. It would make -no difference- except for new moon and full moon. You would still have the normal character during the new moon, you would have normal character and normal werewolf during any other moon, but you would be super-effective at werewolving during the full moon.
The added effect in the full moon time would be well worth the lack of furry powah during the new moon time, i daresay!

Especially since you can join a WW guild and go do that triel as pack! Ayooooah!

kargen27 wrote: »

Want to go out and collect some drafting material? Well to bad the sun is out.

So what? So what if your vampy powers are on their low when you want to go gathering? Not like it would make much of a difference, now would it? Or do you need your mist form for the gathering. Do you -really- need it???

What I like about my ideas is the very fact that they -would- change gameplay for vampires and werewolves!
Make those seem more like "monsters pretending to be human" and less like "just another player with an extra skill line"!

NewBlacksmurf · January 2018

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

Just an unfortunate effect of the way the game has evolved.

I wish Vamps had a fully-fleshed out 5-active-Skill tree.

Oh to dream...

That wouldn’t make sense, it’s an effect not a class. More skills means you can’t use others.

Honestly it should be 100% passives

WuffyCerulei · January 2018

That's cuz vampirism doesn't require you to build a crap ton of ultimate and transform for a limited amount of time in order to access the skills and passives.

kargen27 · January 2018

TheShadowScout wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Most would be a nightmare for game play.

Sez you!

kargen27 wrote: »

Want to go do some writs better feed first so you don't kill an NPC trying to draft a dagger.

So? That's the price of becoming a bloodsucking fiend!
But... the vampire sanctuary sould have all the crafting stations, and no issues with feeding on the blood dolls, so...

kargen27 wrote: »

Group wants you to join them for a trial? Sorry can't go until the moon is full.

Read the ideas again. It would make -no difference- except for new moon and full moon. You would still have the normal character during the new moon, you would have normal character and normal werewolf during any other moon, but you would be super-effective at werewolving during the full moon.
The added effect in the full moon time would be well worth the lack of furry powah during the new moon time, i daresay!

Especially since you can join a WW guild and go do that triel as pack! Ayooooah!

kargen27 wrote: »

Want to go out and collect some drafting material? Well to bad the sun is out.

So what? So what if your vampy powers are on their low when you want to go gathering? Not like it would make much of a difference, now would it? Or do you need your mist form for the gathering. Do you -really- need it???

What I like about my ideas is the very fact that they -would- change gameplay for vampires and werewolves!
Make those seem more like "monsters pretending to be human" and less like "just another player with an extra skill line"!

So they are bad ideas that were not well thought out. Just like people who say hey wouldn't it be great if your character had to sleep. Werewolves ganking in Cyrodiil every full moon... you can''t see how bad an idea this really is? The no difference "except" is exactly what I was talking about. You know there would be a down time for the werewolf and that down time could easily coincide with a group wanting to run trials. And of course they would have to balance out the full moon powers so werewolf groups couldn't dominate leader boards.

Do you know how competitive it can get gathering mats? Do you not realize sometimes those mats are on an island or on the other side of the river? No I don't need mist but I don't need to be swimming with an anchor around my neck either. You said you wanted Vampires weaker in the sun. Many players have enough problems gathering mats in Craglorn last thing they need is to be weaker when visiting the only place you can gather nirn.

The "so what" is simple. It would wreck the game. That isn't taking into account if you buff one skill line based on a clock you are, for balance, going to have to buff the others. Balance is much more important in an MMO than realism or lore.

TheShadowScout · January 2018

kargen27 wrote: »

So they are bad ideas that were not well thought out.

Ah, deja vue. (I wonder if they changes something in the matrix...

)

I have seen the -exact- same kind of arguments before. Back when people were griping about the justice system, and how it would "wreck" crafting when they could no longer pick up any ingredient they saw...

Yes, such changes would make some things more difficult for vampires or werewolves. And some things more easy.

Tradeoffs.

After all, its everyones choice if they go vampy or wolfy.

And it -would- make that choice more -meaningful-

kargen27 wrote: »

Werewolves ganking in Cyrodiil every full moon... you can''t see how bad an idea this really is?

As compared to nightblades ganing all the time? Or those days before changes were made when staff and skirt ruled PvP? and a dozend other instances?
But I totalyl would love it is all cyrodil shook in fear every in-game full moon night when packs of werewolves ruled the lands.

kargen27 wrote: »

And of course they would have to balance out the full moon powers so werewolf groups couldn't dominate leader boards.

Possibly. Or make it tricky in other ways. But the same thing can be saif about certain classes...

I am not saying this is a worked out concept - its just a bunch of ideas. Balancing them should they be implemented is an entirely different barrel of fish.

kargen27 wrote: »

Do you know how competitive it can get gathering mats? Do you not realize sometimes those mats are on an island or on the other side of the river? No I don't need mist but I don't need to be swimming with an anchor around my neck either.

Easy solution - don't let your gathering character become an bloodsucking fiend then!
Mortals should have -some- advantage, dontcha think?
Else everyone would become a vampire... and just imagine how silly that would be (yes, I am somewhat sarcastic here considering how many do)

kargen27 wrote: »

You said you wanted Vampires weaker in the sun. Many players have enough problems gathering mats in Craglorn last thing they need is to be weaker when visiting the only place you can gather nirn.

You do realize I went there nirnroot gathering looooong before the region got nerfed for soloplay? Long before my main "git good"? Long before I could win any of the fights there?
And still got away with more mats then I could carry after a while?

Gather smarter! Sneak harder! Pick your path more thoughtful, and it won't matter if you are a bit weaker in the sun, and stronger in the dark.
Because that IS what vampires ought to be following -every- clichee - weaker in the sun, stronger in the dark. It's... a "creature of the night" thing...

kargen27 wrote: »

The "so what" is simple. It would wreck the game. That isn't taking into account if you buff one skill line based on a clock you are, for balance, going to have to buff the others. Balance is much more important in an MMO than realism or lore.

I remind you again - its everyones choice if they want to go vampire, or stay vampire.
After all, "balance" does not mean everything has to be exactly the same. Only that the final sum is equal.
But some people just want advantages over advantages (remember, this discussion started with the quest for more vampire skills!), and no drawbacks, huh? And then call that balance...

starkerealm · January 2018

ANGEL_BtVS wrote: »

For each of the main classes, there are three skill lines with each line having five active skills plus an ultimate. The werewolf skill line also has five active skills plus an ultimate. Same with the Undaunted skill line (but no ultimate). The fighters guild and mages guild have four active skills plus an ultimate. For vampires, there are only two active skills plus an ultimate. Do you think ZOS will ever expand the vampire skill line? Perhaps as part of a vampire/lycan focused DLC this could happen (along with a re-work of the lycan skill line - I don't have any werewolves so can't comment but I've heard it needs it). Any cool ideas for new vampire skills that could be added? What triggered this question was seeing the Vampire Lord rings at the golden vendor this past weekend - it made me start wondering what it would take to make that set useful.

Originally, Vampires and Werewolves both had 2 active skills and an ultimate. The werewolves got additional skills years ago because they couldn't splash in non-ww skills onto their bar, and as a result, were under performing. Vampires didn't need additional skills.

Now, that said, vampires would benefit from some additional skills, but I'm not expecting we'll ever see more any time soon.

Yolokin_Swagonborn · January 2018

geonsocal wrote: »

Official Zos Reply:

More like. "We would love to add more content to the game but we do so at a glacial pace and have to find a way to lock any new skills or benefits behind a paywall now so you will have to wait till some unspecified DLC or chapter in the future for that."

Solohope · January 2018

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

geonsocal wrote: »

Official Zos Reply:

More like. "We would love to add more content to the game but we do so at a glacial pace and have to find a way to lock any new skills or benefits behind a paywall now so you will have to wait till some unspecified DLC or chapter in the future for that."

you need chill my man

kargen27 · January 2018

TheShadowScout wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

So they are bad ideas that were not well thought out.

Ah, deja vue. (I wonder if they changes something in the matrix... )

I have seen the -exact- same kind of arguments before. Back when people were griping about the justice system, and how it would "wreck" crafting when they could no longer pick up any ingredient they saw...

Yes, such changes would make some things more difficult for vampires or werewolves. And some things more easy.

Tradeoffs.

After all, its everyones choice if they go vampy or wolfy.

And it -would- make that choice more -meaningful-

kargen27 wrote: »

Werewolves ganking in Cyrodiil every full moon... you can''t see how bad an idea this really is?

As compared to nightblades ganing all the time? Or those days before changes were made when staff and skirt ruled PvP? and a dozend other instances?
But I totalyl would love it is all cyrodil shook in fear every in-game full moon night when packs of werewolves ruled the lands.

kargen27 wrote: »

And of course they would have to balance out the full moon powers so werewolf groups couldn't dominate leader boards.

Possibly. Or make it tricky in other ways. But the same thing can be saif about certain classes...

I am not saying this is a worked out concept - its just a bunch of ideas. Balancing them should they be implemented is an entirely different barrel of fish.

kargen27 wrote: »

Do you know how competitive it can get gathering mats? Do you not realize sometimes those mats are on an island or on the other side of the river? No I don't need mist but I don't need to be swimming with an anchor around my neck either.

Easy solution - don't let your gathering character become an bloodsucking fiend then!
Mortals should have -some- advantage, dontcha think?
Else everyone would become a vampire... and just imagine how silly that would be (yes, I am somewhat sarcastic here considering how many do)

kargen27 wrote: »

You said you wanted Vampires weaker in the sun. Many players have enough problems gathering mats in Craglorn last thing they need is to be weaker when visiting the only place you can gather nirn.

You do realize I went there nirnroot gathering looooong before the region got nerfed for soloplay? Long before my main "git good"? Long before I could win any of the fights there?
And still got away with more mats then I could carry after a while?

Gather smarter! Sneak harder! Pick your path more thoughtful, and it won't matter if you are a bit weaker in the sun, and stronger in the dark.
Because that IS what vampires ought to be following -every- clichee - weaker in the sun, stronger in the dark. It's... a "creature of the night" thing...

kargen27 wrote: »

The "so what" is simple. It would wreck the game. That isn't taking into account if you buff one skill line based on a clock you are, for balance, going to have to buff the others. Balance is much more important in an MMO than realism or lore.

I remind you again - its everyones choice if they want to go vampire, or stay vampire.
After all, "balance" does not mean everything has to be exactly the same. Only that the final sum is equal.
But some people just want advantages over advantages (remember, this discussion started with the quest for more vampire skills!), and no drawbacks, huh? And then call that balance...

I remember why it started and others adequately explained the reason only two skills. Good passives and access to other skill lines. And yeah it is a choice, a choice that would be abused for the new found power in the case of werewolves. And pointing out other perceived problems with the game to support the idea leans towards recognizing some of these ideas would cause problems.

Inarre · January 2018

Because it's hard to explain super powers earned from a disease. It's simpler to just have these weird side effects that persist while you're sick.

TheDoomsdayMonster · January 2018

ANGEL_BtVS wrote: »

For each of the main classes, there are three skill lines with each line having five active skills plus an ultimate. The werewolf skill line also has five active skills plus an ultimate. Same with the Undaunted skill line (but no ultimate). The fighters guild and mages guild have four active skills plus an ultimate. For vampires, there are only two active skills plus an ultimate. Do you think ZOS will ever expand the vampire skill line? Perhaps as part of a vampire/lycan focused DLC this could happen (along with a re-work of the lycan skill line - I don't have any werewolves so can't comment but I've heard it needs it). Any cool ideas for new vampire skills that could be added? What triggered this question was seeing the Vampire Lord rings at the golden vendor this past weekend - it made me start wondering what it would take to make that set useful.

My pet build in my sig makes good use of the Vampire Lord gear set:

Devouring Swarm and Invigorating Drain can Proc the Combat Physician Damage Shield allowing one to simultaneously do damage, heal, and shield oneself...

The Defensive benefits provided by the Mighty Chudan Monster Set stacks with the Defensive benefits provided by Elusive Mist...

And, of course, Vampire Lord makes the Vamp DPS abilities hit harder and makes the abilities cheaper to cast as well...

Vampire Lord gear even lowers the Ultimate Cost of Devouring Swarm (it only costs me 140 Ult on my Vampire Lord build)...

See?

Each aspect of my build has synergy with my Vampiric abilities...

All it takes is a little creativity and out of the box thinking and you can make it work wonders for you...

Yolokin_Swagonborn · January 2018

Solohope wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

geonsocal wrote: »

Official Zos Reply:

More like. "We would love to add more content to the game but we do so at a glacial pace and have to find a way to lock any new skills or benefits behind a paywall now so you will have to wait till some unspecified DLC or chapter in the future for that."

you need chill my man

Look at any other MMO developer, (GW2 Arena net) for example. Look at the features they had day one. Look at their stance on cheating. The behavior, quality, almost everything else it night and day. It's only that we are in a TES addicted bubble that we accept this sort of treatment from ZOS.

Uriel_Nocturne · January 2018

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

Just an unfortunate effect of the way the game has evolved.

I wish Vamps had a fully-fleshed out 5-active-Skill tree.

Oh to dream...

That wouldn’t make sense, it’s an effect not a class. More skills means you can’t use others.

Honestly it should be 100% passives

That doesn't mean I can't dream. lol

Ghettokid · January 2018

Why does the Orc skill line have zero active skills?

crashen17b14_ESO · January 2018

Yeah! Vampires should be able to shoot bolts of blood that heal them, wrap themselves in darkness to turn invisible, erect blood shields that give them armor and deflect attacks, be able to jump through the shadows to attack, and lash out with claws to stun from stealth or execute enemies and heal themselves! And the colors should all be black and red!

What? I just described Strife, cloak, mirage, ambush, veiled strike and killers blade? Huh. Who needs vampire skills when you can be a vampire nightblade?

xaraan · January 2018

Because it's not a class, so it doesn't get the class skill line build of three trees. You don't transform into something, so it doesn't get the full bar treatment like WW. It's mostly about the passive abilities that are always active, since you are always a vampire. Might be slightly closer to thinking of it like DB or TG lines, where it is about passive abilities with a couple bonus active skills.

Waffennacht · January 2018

Runefang wrote: »

Because Vampires are more the passive-aggressive types.

Best answer for Vampire question ever

starkerealm · January 2018

Ghettokid wrote: »

Why does the Orc skill line have zero active skills?

Because you're just not Orky enough, Ghettokid.

timborggrenlarsenb16_ESO · January 2018

The vamp skill line is a joke

starkerealm · January 2018

timborggrenlarsenb16_ESO wrote: »

The vamp skill line is a joke

Yeah, but it's got a fantastic punchline.