Mag DK

ShadeSeph · January 2018

Im sure there are threads about this... but why is Mag DK constantly being nerfed into the ground? Ive been a MagDK player since launch on xbox and we've been nerfed since 1.3. We became the bottom teir class in 1.7 and dont see any hope in the future.

VaranisArano · January 2018

I think the actual question is "Why is MagDK DPS bring nerfed into the ground?"

I've mained a MagDK tank since the game became buy-to-play and my MagDK tank is still rolling along just fine. I've had to adapt to changes, sure, but there's been nothing that derailed my tank builds or even caused serious consternation. No one makes threads about how MagDK tanks are doomed with the next patch.

I suspect the answer is that ZOS likes MagDKs just fine, as long as they stay tanks.

ShadeSeph · January 2018

I dont play a tank on my MagDK. Idk why ZoS has a problem with a MagDK DPS!

SirDopey · January 2018

It's called balancing. When I main'd a templar I was so angry when we got consecutive nerfs (BoL becoming LOS, Rune change and jeezus beam nerf all at once). The truth is I knew we were over performing, that's why I liked playing my character so much. So I did the logical thing and got on here and raged.

Did those changes kill the class? Not at all.

Of all the classes I'm hesitant about making the first move on in PVP is DK's, as its the class I struggle against the most. The damage and healing DKs get from Powerlash is just stupid. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe there is a another skill that provides the same amount of damage + healing from one cast that can be spammed.

The instant proc crystal shards is dodegable as is the spectral arrow from assassin's will so I think the very popular argument that because it's a proc it shouldn't be dodgeable is just clutching at straws

VaranisArano · January 2018

To elaborate on my statement that I think ZOS likes MagDKs to stay tanks, part of what we have to consider with MagDKs is that they are the most efficient tanking class. All classes can tank and Wardens are recently proving themselves to be great tanks. But DKs in general and particularly the magicka-based class skills of a MagDK are really well suited for tanking. I don't think its a stretch to say that DK tanks dominate end-game tanking.

Why DKs dominate end-game tanking or if they do or if they should is somewhat inconsequential here. I suspect its a combination of them being more efficient at the task and thus more desirable to competitive groups.

So when ZOS looks at balancing the MagDK, they can't only look at how MagDK stacks up against other magicka DPS. I mean, its pretty clear that if they were measuring MagDK DPS versus MagSorc DPS versus MagBlade DPS and so on, that it would be clear that MagDK DPS is not in the best place. Far from it. But ZOS also has to look at MagDKs in PVP - okay, touchy subject there, moving on. ZOS definitely has to look at how MagDK TANKS measure up and that's a pretty clear win for the MagDK.

When ZOS looks at MagDK DPS, they have to consider how buffing a MagDK DPS will impact MagDK tanks. The last thing ZOS wants is for MagDK tanks to be absolutely dominating the end-game tanking scene, so they tread lightly with the buffs. Yeah, that does mean that MagDK DPS takes a back seat in some ways.

I guess what I'm saying is that its not as simple as ZOS comparing MagDK DPS to other magicka DPS and always nerfing the MagDK. ZOS also has to balance the MagDK DPS with the MagDK tank, and keeping those two roles in line without buffing the MagDK tank into greater dominance than it already enjoys is tricky.

SirDopey · January 2018

^ on point

ThulsaDoomDC · January 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

To elaborate on my statement that I think ZOS likes MagDKs to stay tanks, part of what we have to consider with MagDKs is that they are the most efficient tanking class. All classes can tank and Wardens are recently proving themselves to be great tanks. But DKs in general and particularly the magicka-based class skills of a MagDK are really well suited for tanking. I don't think its a stretch to say that DK tanks dominate end-game tanking.

Why DKs dominate end-game tanking or if they do or if they should is somewhat inconsequential here. I suspect its a combination of them being more efficient at the task and thus more desirable to competitive groups.

So when ZOS looks at balancing the MagDK, they can't only look at how MagDK stacks up against other magicka DPS. I mean, its pretty clear that if they were measuring MagDK DPS versus MagSorc DPS versus MagBlade DPS and so on, that it would be clear that MagDK DPS is not in the best place. Far from it. But ZOS also has to look at MagDKs in PVP - okay, touchy subject there, moving on. ZOS definitely has to look at how MagDK TANKS measure up and that's a pretty clear win for the MagDK.

When ZOS looks at MagDK DPS, they have to consider how buffing a MagDK DPS will impact MagDK tanks. The last thing ZOS wants is for MagDK tanks to be absolutely dominating the end-game tanking scene, so they tread lightly with the buffs. Yeah, that does mean that MagDK DPS takes a back seat in some ways.

I guess what I'm saying is that its not as simple as ZOS comparing MagDK DPS to other magicka DPS and always nerfing the MagDK. ZOS also has to balance the MagDK DPS with the MagDK tank, and keeping those two roles in line without buffing the MagDK tank into greater dominance than it already enjoys is tricky.

I've played a magDK Tank in PvP and while it was successful, it wasn't as successful as a Stam DK Tank. That being said, I think the argument that the reason DPS is being nerfed into the ground is because we're pretty good tanks is ridiculous. Sorc Tanks, Sap Tanks, Warden Tanks, Templar Tanks. PvE terms then yes DK's are the supreme leaders. However, in PvP it's ridiculous that we have yet to see any REAL "balancing" of our class to put us in a fair position in open world PvP.

But hey, they buffed cauterize right guys?

VaranisArano · January 2018

ThulsaDoomDC wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

To elaborate on my statement that I think ZOS likes MagDKs to stay tanks, part of what we have to consider with MagDKs is that they are the most efficient tanking class. All classes can tank and Wardens are recently proving themselves to be great tanks. But DKs in general and particularly the magicka-based class skills of a MagDK are really well suited for tanking. I don't think its a stretch to say that DK tanks dominate end-game tanking.

Why DKs dominate end-game tanking or if they do or if they should is somewhat inconsequential here. I suspect its a combination of them being more efficient at the task and thus more desirable to competitive groups.

So when ZOS looks at balancing the MagDK, they can't only look at how MagDK stacks up against other magicka DPS. I mean, its pretty clear that if they were measuring MagDK DPS versus MagSorc DPS versus MagBlade DPS and so on, that it would be clear that MagDK DPS is not in the best place. Far from it. But ZOS also has to look at MagDKs in PVP - okay, touchy subject there, moving on. ZOS definitely has to look at how MagDK TANKS measure up and that's a pretty clear win for the MagDK.

When ZOS looks at MagDK DPS, they have to consider how buffing a MagDK DPS will impact MagDK tanks. The last thing ZOS wants is for MagDK tanks to be absolutely dominating the end-game tanking scene, so they tread lightly with the buffs. Yeah, that does mean that MagDK DPS takes a back seat in some ways.

I guess what I'm saying is that its not as simple as ZOS comparing MagDK DPS to other magicka DPS and always nerfing the MagDK. ZOS also has to balance the MagDK DPS with the MagDK tank, and keeping those two roles in line without buffing the MagDK tank into greater dominance than it already enjoys is tricky.

I've played a magDK Tank in PvP and while it was successful, it wasn't as successful as a Stam DK Tank. That being said, I think the argument that the reason DPS is being nerfed into the ground is because we're pretty good tanks is ridiculous. Sorc Tanks, Sap Tanks, Warden Tanks, Templar Tanks. PvE terms then yes DK's are the supreme leaders. However, in PvP it's ridiculous that we have yet to see any REAL "balancing" of our class to put us in a fair position in open world PvP.

But hey, they buffed cauterize right guys?

I'm making a PVE argument. PVE MagDK DPS get nerfed because ZOS has no desire for PVE MagDK tanks to be indisputably the top dog at tanking. Everyone tries to make it about PVP, but I think its a tanks vs DPS problem.

As for PVP, I had thought they weren't doing too badly this patch?

NyassaV · January 2018

Lol, bottom tier class... This is how Nightblades felt for awhile. Even so you aren't bottom tier. Blame ZoS for Balanced PvP and PvE while not adjusting battlespirit

Veg · January 2018

mDK's are nerfed every patch because they rely on basic mechanics that can be exploited to over perform in certain builds like the stamina wardens unreasonable sustain to burst damage ratio in pvp. These core mechanics are changed without any consideration of how they will effect the mDK class.

Example 1: Dynamic ult gen is removed. No comments on how this effects mDK's sustain are made by any staff. End result is almost 50% less sustain.

Example 2: Stam regen while blocking gets removed and not a single change is applied to mDK's nor are any comments made by any staff.

Example 3: Block cost is doubled. Again no comments from staff on how this effects mDK's.

Example 4: Roots are changed to have a 3 second duration. This nerfed fossilize changing it from 15 seconds to 3 seconds of stun time.

Example 5: Current pts shows that power lash is now the only skill in the game with a cooldown. This occurred because of the changes to off balance. This skill now requires you to set your target off balance then hit them with flame lash and then use power lash and hope by then they haven't purged or dodged as it is now dodge able as well.

As you can the devs are simply nerfing core mechanics without understanding that the mDK is the only class that relies solely on these mechanics not only in pve but also in pvp. It's easier to notice in pvp. The mDK is still the only class with 0 damage mitigation mechanics outside of block. Every other class can purge, dodge or re-position themselves to avoid damage.

DKsUnite · January 2018

Veg wrote: »

mDK's are nerfed every patch because they rely on basic mechanics that can be exploited to over perform in certain builds like the stamina wardens unreasonable sustain to burst damage ratio in pvp. These core mechanics are changed without any consideration of how they will effect the mDK class.

Example 1: Dynamic ult gen is removed. No comments on how this effects mDK's sustain are made by any staff. End result is almost 50% less sustain.

Example 2: Stam regen while blocking gets removed and not a single change is applied to mDK's nor are any comments made by any staff.

Example 3: Block cost is doubled. Again no comments from staff on how this effects mDK's.

Example 4: Roots are changed to have a 3 second duration. This nerfed fossilize changing it from 15 seconds to 3 seconds of stun time.

Example 5: Current pts shows that power lash is now the only skill in the game with a cooldown. This occurred because of the changes to off balance. This skill now requires you to set your target off balance then hit them with flame lash and then use power lash and hope by then they haven't purged or dodged as it is now dodge able as well.

As you can the devs are simply nerfing core mechanics without understanding that the mDK is the only class that relies solely on these mechanics not only in pve but also in pvp. It's easier to notice in pvp. The mDK is still the only class with 0 damage mitigation mechanics outside of block. Every other class can purge, dodge or re-position themselves to avoid damage.

Pretty sure all of these nerfs happened because mDK synergised with it all so well. However i do agree that no compensation is why most mDKs still play SnB because if you play anything else, you would have better success on another class.

Toc de Malsvi · January 2018

Power Lash isn't a "Skill", Power Lash is a proc. Flame Lash is a skill, procs have CDs skills do not. Flame Lash does not have a CD.

Veg · January 2018

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Power Lash isn't a "Skill", Power Lash is a proc. Flame Lash is a skill, procs have CDs skills do not. Flame Lash does not have a CD.

Call it a proc or a skill. You cast it just like any other skill on your bar so I say it's a skill. You can stack procs with other skills. Problem is that you can only cast it if you first set your target off balance then hit them with flame lash and only then do you have the chance to cast it. It really shouldn't be dodge able.

Toc de Malsvi · January 2018

The instant cast from Crystal shards cannot be spammed, the instant

Veg wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Power Lash isn't a "Skill", Power Lash is a proc. Flame Lash is a skill, procs have CDs skills do not. Flame Lash does not have a CD.

Call it a proc or a skill. You cast it just like any other skill on your bar so I say it's a skill. You can stack procs with other skills. Problem is that you can only cast it if you first set your target off balance then hit them with flame lash and only then do you have the chance to cast it. It really shouldn't be dodge able.

Can NB's cast Grim Focus proc at will? Or do they have to say land 5 light attacks? Can Sorcerers cast instant Crystal Frag's at will? Flame Lash is being treated no differently, it has a powerful effect that is based on a conditional statement.

Kartalin · January 2018

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

The instant cast from Crystal shards cannot be spammed, the instant

Veg wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Power Lash isn't a "Skill", Power Lash is a proc. Flame Lash is a skill, procs have CDs skills do not. Flame Lash does not have a CD.

Call it a proc or a skill. You cast it just like any other skill on your bar so I say it's a skill. You can stack procs with other skills. Problem is that you can only cast it if you first set your target off balance then hit them with flame lash and only then do you have the chance to cast it. It really shouldn't be dodge able.

Can NB's cast Grim Focus proc at will? Or do they have to say land 5 light attacks? Can Sorcerers cast instant Crystal Frag's at will? Flame Lash is being treated no differently, it has a powerful effect that is based on a conditional statement.

You are correct. But MagDKs don't have class spammables like mNBs or ways to generate non-ultimate burst like mSorcs.
.

DDuke · January 2018

Kartalin wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

The instant cast from Crystal shards cannot be spammed, the instant

Veg wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Power Lash isn't a "Skill", Power Lash is a proc. Flame Lash is a skill, procs have CDs skills do not. Flame Lash does not have a CD.

Call it a proc or a skill. You cast it just like any other skill on your bar so I say it's a skill. You can stack procs with other skills. Problem is that you can only cast it if you first set your target off balance then hit them with flame lash and only then do you have the chance to cast it. It really shouldn't be dodge able.

Can NB's cast Grim Focus proc at will? Or do they have to say land 5 light attacks? Can Sorcerers cast instant Crystal Frag's at will? Flame Lash is being treated no differently, it has a powerful effect that is based on a conditional statement.

You are correct. But MagDKs don't have class spammables like mNBs or ways to generate non-ultimate burst like mSorcs.
.

Hmm... Flame Lash isn't a spammable? :thinking:

Also Chains->Fossilize->FL->PL is a ton of burst when combined with FoO projectile. If Skoria procs too, that's just icing on the cake.

Veg · January 2018

DDuke wrote: »

Kartalin wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

The instant cast from Crystal shards cannot be spammed, the instant

Veg wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Power Lash isn't a "Skill", Power Lash is a proc. Flame Lash is a skill, procs have CDs skills do not. Flame Lash does not have a CD.

Call it a proc or a skill. You cast it just like any other skill on your bar so I say it's a skill. You can stack procs with other skills. Problem is that you can only cast it if you first set your target off balance then hit them with flame lash and only then do you have the chance to cast it. It really shouldn't be dodge able.

Can NB's cast Grim Focus proc at will? Or do they have to say land 5 light attacks? Can Sorcerers cast instant Crystal Frag's at will? Flame Lash is being treated no differently, it has a powerful effect that is based on a conditional statement.

You are correct. But MagDKs don't have class spammables like mNBs or ways to generate non-ultimate burst like mSorcs.
.

Hmm... Flame Lash isn't a spammable? :thinking:

Also Chains->Fossilize->FL->PL is a ton of burst when combined with FoO projectile. If Skoria procs too, that's just icing on the cake.

But you have to waste time casting flame lash before power lash. This means you need to cast either a stun or root and flame lash and power lash all for 1 burst damage instance. this leaves at least 2 seconds for your target to dodge or heal or really do anything to avoid sudden damage. Just look at a stamina warden. All their burst damage is done within 1 second including stuns and dots.

If you cant do your burst damage within 1 ability cast time then its useless.

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

The instant cast from Crystal shards cannot be spammed, the instant

Veg wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Power Lash isn't a "Skill", Power Lash is a proc. Flame Lash is a skill, procs have CDs skills do not. Flame Lash does not have a CD.

Call it a proc or a skill. You cast it just like any other skill on your bar so I say it's a skill. You can stack procs with other skills. Problem is that you can only cast it if you first set your target off balance then hit them with flame lash and only then do you have the chance to cast it. It really shouldn't be dodge able.

Can NB's cast Grim Focus proc at will? Or do they have to say land 5 light attacks? Can Sorcerers cast instant Crystal Frag's at will? Flame Lash is being treated no differently, it has a powerful effect that is based on a conditional statement.

power lash does about 1k additional damage over normal flame lash damage. grim focus does at least twice as much damage and is a projectile. power lash is meant to heal not do extreme damage. if its healing is not consistent then you can not use it to maintain the offensive.

Frags does not have multiple cast requirements or a cooldown.

Bottom line is mDK got nerfed in pve and pvp. less in pvp but still a slight nerf that wasn't needed.

Nerfs should be applied when something is out performing all other options giving the user an advantage over all other users. not when flame lashes pvp burst potential is being out performed by at least 1 other class.

ak_pvp · January 2018

SirDopey wrote: »

It's called balancing. When I main'd a templar I was so angry when we got consecutive nerfs (BoL becoming LOS, Rune change and jeezus beam nerf all at once). The truth is I knew we were over performing, that's why I liked playing my character so much. So I did the logical thing and got on here and raged.

Did those changes kill the class? Not at all.

Of all the classes I'm hesitant about making the first move on in PVP is DK's, as its the class I struggle against the most. The damage and healing DKs get from Powerlash is just stupid. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe there is a another skill that provides the same amount of damage + healing from one cast that can be spammed.

The instant proc crystal shards is dodegable as is the spectral arrow from assassin's will so I think the very popular argument that because it's a proc it shouldn't be dodgeable is just clutching at straws

Power lash can't be spammed. In pve it could, but the extra damage made up for no execute spam later on.

I am fine with common sense nerf like dodge and root CD. But not with the endless sustain and defence nerf we have taken. We don't even have high mobility to fall back on.

CaliMade · January 2018

What is this, like the 5 Mag Dk thread this week? Has ZOS replied to any of them? SMH, I just want futher explanation on why Dks get dumped on every update. You want to make PL dodgeable I’m 100% apposed to this Idea, almost so much that it makes me not want to even play the game any more, but i have no control over that. If thats your final verdict then i just have to accept it. Please just give us Mag Dks some type of compensation for the reliable heal and sustain we just lost. Ive seen people say the new PL is better aganst magic builds or immobile builds. Thats kind of stupid to me because it wasnt these builds that gave me problems.I run standard, good luck depending on TK or BOL to keep you alive thru 4K dmg a second with an unpurgable 40% heal debuff. Its the nightblades that can drop my block and incap my “ tanky” class deal 7k+ dmg buff their dmg by 20% and debuff my healing by up to 46% IF thier not running defile poisons (then it would be closer to 68~70% heal debuff witch is just absurd.).

Why cant power lash be left the way it is on live? I understand ZOS doesnt want it spammed, but was this truly causing a problem in PVE? Were MDks rolling through trial bosses hitting 360s like ballerinas with flaming ribbons of death, pulling 100k dps with full magic pools? I dont ever recall getting spammed by PL in PvP, actually PL isnt something that really affects me on any of my classes in Cyrodiil. If its in my death recap is no higher that 4k and is NEVER the skill that kills me.

P.S. Befoul Champion passive needs some kinda reduction there HAS to be another way to go about the OP healing issue without completley maiming Mag Dks and wardens, most Stam builds can kite out the duration, Templars can purify. I know purge exsist but to spend 5k magic and pray you purify the right thing is kinda wack

.

NuarBlack · January 2018

Power lash did need to be dodge-able. That was too perfect of synergy that offered little to no counter play especially on medium armor which is underpowered as well. It's why flurry no longer has a morph to set target off-balance or any stuns or roots in the DW tree to perfectly synergize with the Ruffian passive. The new update will actually make power lash synergy with talons significantly stronger and make fossilize no longer mandatory.

The rest of Dk problems are due to core mechanic changes that impacted DK's somewhat harder than other classes and the whole off-balance fiasco continues to be a problem specifically. ZOS has painted themselves into a corner with that one, so hence the awkward CD on power lash. Also no compensation for those nerfs either. Still blows my mind that DK's don't have a passive like wardens or sorcs that boosts poison and fire damage like they get with lightning/physical and Magic/Ice.

Also remove the off-balance debacle and exploiter CP star and there is no excuse why stamDK doesn't get a stam morph called poison whip so they have a spammable too and magDK get a more reliable and less gimmicky morph that doesn't compromise Group DPS. I think some kind of synergy with Burning Embers would be cool. That way it is completely class contained and doesn't rely on or effect core or group mechanics.

ak_pvp · January 2018

NuarBlack wrote: »

Power lash did need to be dodge-able. That was too perfect of synergy that offered little to no counter play especially on medium armor which is underpowered as well. It's why flurry no longer has a morph to set target off-balance or any stuns or roots in the DW tree to perfectly synergize with the Ruffian passive. The new update will actually make power lash synergy with talons significantly stronger and make fossilize no longer mandatory.

The rest of Dk problems are due to core mechanic changes that impacted DK's somewhat harder than other classes and the whole off-balance fiasco continues to be a problem specifically. ZOS has painted themselves into a corner with that one, so hence the awkward CD on power lash. Also no compensation for those nerfs either. Still blows my mind that DK's don't have a passive like wardens or sorcs that boosts poison and fire damage like they get with lightning/physical and Magic/Ice.

Also remove the off-balance debacle and exploiter CP star and there is no excuse why stamDK doesn't get a stam morph called poison whip so they have a spammable too and magDK get a more reliable and less gimmicky morph that doesn't compromise Group DPS. I think some kind of synergy with Burning Embers would be cool. That way it is completely class contained and doesn't rely on or effect core or group mechanics.

Preface; I think PL should be dodgable.

Counter 1: Don't get talons'd. Either be ranged of use FM/shuffle.

Counter 2: If you are talonsed, roll before the whip.

Counter 3: When offbalanced, CC and move away.

Stamwhip, whilst would be OK for PvP. Wouldn't really work very well. They are balanced around no spammable in PvE, so adding a spammable would make them even stronger. Its just something that won't happen. Like MagDK and executes or NB and burst heals.

DDuke · January 2018

Veg wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Kartalin wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

The instant cast from Crystal shards cannot be spammed, the instant

Veg wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Power Lash isn't a "Skill", Power Lash is a proc. Flame Lash is a skill, procs have CDs skills do not. Flame Lash does not have a CD.

Call it a proc or a skill. You cast it just like any other skill on your bar so I say it's a skill. You can stack procs with other skills. Problem is that you can only cast it if you first set your target off balance then hit them with flame lash and only then do you have the chance to cast it. It really shouldn't be dodge able.

Can NB's cast Grim Focus proc at will? Or do they have to say land 5 light attacks? Can Sorcerers cast instant Crystal Frag's at will? Flame Lash is being treated no differently, it has a powerful effect that is based on a conditional statement.

You are correct. But MagDKs don't have class spammables like mNBs or ways to generate non-ultimate burst like mSorcs.
.

Hmm... Flame Lash isn't a spammable? :thinking:

Also Chains->Fossilize->FL->PL is a ton of burst when combined with FoO projectile. If Skoria procs too, that's just icing on the cake.

But you have to waste time casting flame lash before power lash. This means you need to cast either a stun or root and flame lash and power lash all for 1 burst damage instance. this leaves at least 2 seconds for your target to dodge or heal or really do anything to avoid sudden damage. Just look at a stamina warden. All their burst damage is done within 1 second including stuns and dots.

If you cant do your burst damage within 1 ability cast time then its useless.

Well, I was asked for "non-ultimate burst", that's the best you can do on MDK & not worse "non-ultimate burst" than any other class has.

Most burst combos actually deal their damage within 2 ability cast times, they just remove the window to react by a well timed CC.

For example: Assassin's Scourge->Incap->Surprise Attack. That happens within the same time window as Fossilize->FL->PL (but uses an ultimate ofc).

If we were to add ultimates, there's a lot more potent DK combos. I.e. (pre-proc Power Lash)->Chains+Leap+PL(+FoO projectile, maybe Skoria proc).

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

The instant cast from Crystal shards cannot be spammed, the instant

Veg wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Power Lash isn't a "Skill", Power Lash is a proc. Flame Lash is a skill, procs have CDs skills do not. Flame Lash does not have a CD.

Call it a proc or a skill. You cast it just like any other skill on your bar so I say it's a skill. You can stack procs with other skills. Problem is that you can only cast it if you first set your target off balance then hit them with flame lash and only then do you have the chance to cast it. It really shouldn't be dodge able.

Can NB's cast Grim Focus proc at will? Or do they have to say land 5 light attacks? Can Sorcerers cast instant Crystal Frag's at will? Flame Lash is being treated no differently, it has a powerful effect that is based on a conditional statement.

power lash does about 1k additional damage over normal flame lash damage. grim focus does at least twice as much damage and is a projectile. power lash is meant to heal not do extreme damage. if its healing is not consistent then you can not use it to maintain the offensive.

Frags does not have multiple cast requirements or a cooldown.[/quote]

It does actually. Frags have a 35% chance of proccing from skill cast. After using frags & triggering the 1s global cooldown, you can cast another ability for 35% chance of getting frags & trigger another 1s global cooldown.

You've now spent likely 2.6 seconds (with LA weaving) just to have 35% chance of being able to throw out another Frag.
Meanwhile, a mDK can Power Lash an opponent every 3s.

Also, currently on PTS the heal portion of Power Lash still triggers even if target dodges your Power Lash (and has been increased to 4 second duration rather than 2 seconds, though this might be a bug).

Veg wrote: »

Bottom line is mDK got nerfed in pve and pvp. less in pvp but still a slight nerf that wasn't needed.

Nerfs should be applied when something is out performing all other options giving the user an advantage over all other users. not when flame lashes pvp burst potential is being out performed by at least 1 other class.

Except it hasn't been nerfed in PvP, not vs most opponents - which you'd know if you actually tested mDK on PTS.

It's quite the opposite in fact.

Against every block/dmg shield build you'll be landing Power Lashes twice as often as before. It's only dodge rollers that can now have a chance of surviving the first Fossilize from a high dmg mDK if they react fast & dodge the PL (and mDK doesn't outplay them by simply changing up the rotation). I'm still able to land around 50-60% of PLs on PTS (number can be improved) against dodge rollers.

Kartalin · January 2018

DDuke wrote: »

Kartalin wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

The instant cast from Crystal shards cannot be spammed, the instant

Veg wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Power Lash isn't a "Skill", Power Lash is a proc. Flame Lash is a skill, procs have CDs skills do not. Flame Lash does not have a CD.

Call it a proc or a skill. You cast it just like any other skill on your bar so I say it's a skill. You can stack procs with other skills. Problem is that you can only cast it if you first set your target off balance then hit them with flame lash and only then do you have the chance to cast it. It really shouldn't be dodge able.

Can NB's cast Grim Focus proc at will? Or do they have to say land 5 light attacks? Can Sorcerers cast instant Crystal Frag's at will? Flame Lash is being treated no differently, it has a powerful effect that is based on a conditional statement.

You are correct. But MagDKs don't have class spammables like mNBs or ways to generate non-ultimate burst like mSorcs.
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Hmm... Flame Lash isn't a spammable? :thinking:.

Lol, sorry guess I spaced out and started thinking of stam DKs for a second there, my bad

IZZEFlameLash · January 2018

Lol. Magicka DK and non-ult burst in the same sentence.

SmellyUnlimited · January 2018

SirDopey wrote: »

It's called balancing. When I main'd a templar I was so angry when we got consecutive nerfs (BoL becoming LOS, Rune change and jeezus beam nerf all at once). The truth is I knew we were over performing, that's why I liked playing my character so much. So I did the logical thing and got on here and raged.

Did those changes kill the class? Not at all.

Of all the classes I'm hesitant about making the first move on in PVP is DK's, as its the class I struggle against the most. The damage and healing DKs get from Powerlash is just stupid. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe there is a another skill that provides the same amount of damage + healing from one cast that can be spammed.

The instant proc crystal shards is dodegable as is the spectral arrow from assassin's will so I think the very popular argument that because it's a proc it shouldn't be dodgeable is just clutching at straws

BoL isn’t line of sight. Very commonly heal people through walls with it.

NuarBlack · January 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

Preface; I think PL should be dodgable.

Counter 1: Don't get talons'd. Either be ranged of use FM/shuffle.

Counter 2: If you are talonsed, roll before the whip.

Counter 3: When offbalanced, CC and move away.

Stamwhip, whilst would be OK for PvP. Wouldn't really work very well. They are balanced around no spammable in PvE, so adding a spammable would make them even stronger. Its just something that won't happen. Like MagDK and executes or NB and burst heals.

There are ways to counter but they are not great options considering shuffle is really expensive. FM trades off having Rally burst heal. Which will be significant once vigor is indirectly nerfed by fixing trollking. Roll before whip? not consistently possible with latency or if you are hit with fossilize. Granted I think the changes on pts will make fossilize less mandatory or less common. Be ranged? would make sense if Bow wasn't such a joke or you are a warden that can spam birds. Counter 3 I agree with but that means you can never CC offensively then.

As far as stam whip, like I said, remove the exploit star that is a 10% dps loss to stamDK less likely to be overcome than all the magic builds blowing points in thaum to get it. So it wouldn't hit them as bad and it would get rid of a gimmick mechanic that ZOS can't make work fairly any way. That's if even adding a stam spammable even affects stamDK rotation. DOTs will always remain king in pve unless something drastic changes. But a stamDK spammable would let stamDK play something other than 7th legion builds maybe.

Gulkrim-mur · August 2018

All this balance talk. What would be the point if every build was viable in all places you have multiple toon slots for a reason. No single class should have it call. The survivability of a mag dk is incredible between self heal and range dps counter with wings. So they need high dps and burst too. Ok lol.

Ariades_swe · August 2018

This is a 7 month old thread idiot.