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Can we do something about heavy armor meta in PvP?
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olsborg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭7th is getting nerfed into uselessness. This makes tank and spank setups much more resource intensive since they’re losing tons of healing.
Medium just needs more appealing set choices imo
Its basicly this. Medium vs Heavy armor..the passives arent terribly bad balanced, its all the sets thats available to heavy vs medium. Most of the medium sets are pretty lackluster and many of the heavy sets are quite op.
PC EU
PvP only0 -
Subversus✭✭✭✭✭
✭7th is getting nerfed into uselessness. This makes tank and spank setups much more resource intensive since they’re losing tons of healing.
Medium just needs more appealing set choices imo
Its basicly this. Medium vs Heavy armor..the passives arent terribly bad balanced, its all the sets thats available to heavy vs medium. Most of the medium sets are pretty lackluster and many of the heavy sets are quite op.
Most of the medium passives are actually very good, not to mention that the resistance you get from heavy vs medium is really minimal if you run 5-1-1.
The thing that kills medium armor are not only the heavy damage sets though, but also all this undodgable crap that god added into the game patch after patch.
The only undodgable stuff should be AOEs or BEAMS. Nothing else. I don't give a flying *** if it's an ult or not. If it's not aoe or a laser beam channel it should be dodgable.1 -
Brutusmax1mus✭✭✭✭✭
✭7th procs for 5 seconds, cooldown is 2. Therefore the proc will outlast the cooldown no? The only that takes a hit is the heal.
As for heavy I think you don’t realize how many stamina builds are actually playing medium right now. On my stam sorc I can get the same resists as heavy armor with more wpn damage, more mobility, more regen, more stamina, higher crit and access to shuffle. There’s almost no reason to play heavy.
id like to see that build. i doubt you can get 5k weapon dmg while also maintaining 21k resists (26k with snb) in medium. also id pick forward momentum and increased healing and max hp/regen from heavy and the 25% more stam regen on heavy attacks + constitution over shuffle and like what? 5% more crit? any day of the week. dont get me wrong, im not saying medium is completely bad but better than heavy? nope, not even close.
Those are very realistic stats for a good medium build. I've got pics self buffed outside of cyro exceeding them with 1900 recovery. I love medium armor. Almost all my stam builds are in medium except my khajiit night blade bc they have class dodge and health recovery which pumps my trollking over 3.3k in heavy.0 -
Aedaryl✭✭✭✭✭
✭Heavy armor skill line is balanced.
Heavy armor is prefered over medium armor because Block > Dodge and because Heavy armor is the best armor for blocking and facetanking damage.
Also, for people saying it's a set problem, I'm not 100%. You can take a heavy armor damage set ans still be in 5 medium with a sustain set ike bone pirate. But medium set are not appealing in a damage point of vue.0 -
lao✭✭✭✭Brutusmax1mus wrote: »7th procs for 5 seconds, cooldown is 2. Therefore the proc will outlast the cooldown no? The only that takes a hit is the heal.
As for heavy I think you don’t realize how many stamina builds are actually playing medium right now. On my stam sorc I can get the same resists as heavy armor with more wpn damage, more mobility, more regen, more stamina, higher crit and access to shuffle. There’s almost no reason to play heavy.
id like to see that build. i doubt you can get 5k weapon dmg while also maintaining 21k resists (26k with snb) in medium. also id pick forward momentum and increased healing and max hp/regen from heavy and the 25% more stam regen on heavy attacks + constitution over shuffle and like what? 5% more crit? any day of the week. dont get me wrong, im not saying medium is completely bad but better than heavy? nope, not even close.
Those are very realistic stats for a good medium build. I've got pics self buffed outside of cyro exceeding them with 1900 recovery. I love medium armor. Almost all my stam builds are in medium except my khajiit night blade bc they have class dodge and health recovery which pumps my trollking over 3.3k in heavy.
the only ways i can think of that would give you comparable resists in medium is either running fortified brass which does nothing for your sustain or dmg so theres no way you reach 5k weapon dmg with that or by putting lots of CP into medium armor which means you lack mitigation cp. both options are not good and you will never reach the same mitigation as heavy. infact you wont even get close. on top of that heavy passives are just way better than medium ones. 1000 regen in heavy is worth more than 2000 regen in medium if you put heavy attack weaving and constitution into the equation. also block > dodge and lets not forget about better heals from heavy. there is alot of big advantages with heavy that the char sheet doesnt show. the ONLY advantage of medium over heavy is slightly better mobility. in every other aspect heavy wipes the floor with medium.0 -
kaithuzar✭✭✭✭✭
✭1stly) we're not in a "heavy armor meta", we're in a "tank & dmg mitigation meta"
Blocking reduces more damage than anything else in game & blocking is being altered next patch.
2ndly) medium armor has "potentially" the BEST defensive option, it's called EVASION, meaning they don't take a % of the damage done to them, they take absolutely 0
Idk why there aren't tons of people running impreg jewelry & some well fitted 5 piece damage set stacking cp into dodge roll???Member of:
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Arcance Council - Klytz Kommander
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M12 (majestic twelve) - cult of the loli zerg1 -
Anethum✭✭✭✭Heavy armor meta? Are we even playing the same game?
Heavy armor died with wrath passive and sustain changes. I can push max resistances in medium no issue and still get all of those juicy passives AND shuffle. I dont know anyone running heavy anymore outside of 7th or truth. The number of viable heavy armor sets is shrinking with every patch.
Its not died. Less damage, but more both resourses. Heavy atacking in heavy is very simple.
Also some heavy sets like Truth or Seventh Legion, Ravager, which compensate less damage from heavy.
I feel heavy still stronger than medium. At stamwarden extremly stronger. At stamplar and stamsopc simply stronger. And at stamdk ~ same crap as medium. Because of snare or burst heal dilemma.Edited by Anethum on January 24, 2018 8:55PM@Anethum from .ua0 -
Aedaryl✭✭✭✭✭
✭Heavy armor meta? Are we even playing the same game?
Heavy armor died with wrath passive and sustain changes. I can push max resistances in medium no issue and still get all of those juicy passives AND shuffle. I dont know anyone running heavy anymore outside of 7th or truth. The number of viable heavy armor sets is shrinking with every patch.
Its not died. Less damage, but more both resourses. Heavy atacking in heavy is very simple.
Also some heavy sets like Truth or Seventh Legion, which compensate less damage from heavy.
I feel heavy still stronger than medium. At stamwarden extremly stronger. At stamplar and stamsopc simply stronger. And at stamdk ~ same crap as medium. Because of snare or burst heal dilemma.
Heavy armor is not "dead" and it shoudn't be dead.
Heavy armor is better ressource management for block build because consitution and ressource buff on heavies. For dk example can run medium because their ressource managment allow them to block sustain without medium. A stam sorc can go medium too if he choose a more kiting gameplay with streak + Dark deal.
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Anethum✭✭✭✭Heavy armor meta? Are we even playing the same game?
Heavy armor died with wrath passive and sustain changes. I can push max resistances in medium no issue and still get all of those juicy passives AND shuffle. I dont know anyone running heavy anymore outside of 7th or truth. The number of viable heavy armor sets is shrinking with every patch.
Its not died. Less damage, but more both resourses. Heavy atacking in heavy is very simple.
Also some heavy sets like Truth or Seventh Legion, which compensate less damage from heavy.
I feel heavy still stronger than medium. At stamwarden extremly stronger. At stamplar and stamsopc simply stronger. And at stamdk ~ same crap as medium. Because of snare or burst heal dilemma.
Heavy armor is not "dead" and it shoudn't be dead.
Heavy armor is better ressource management for block build because consitution and ressource buff on heavies. For dk example can run medium because their ressource managment allow them to block sustain without medium. A stam sorc can go medium too if he choose a more kiting gameplay with streak + Dark deal.
Reply this to Dreth. I said ~ the same.Edited by Anethum on January 24, 2018 9:03PM@Anethum from .ua0 -
Aedaryl✭✭✭✭✭
✭Heavy armor meta? Are we even playing the same game?
Heavy armor died with wrath passive and sustain changes. I can push max resistances in medium no issue and still get all of those juicy passives AND shuffle. I dont know anyone running heavy anymore outside of 7th or truth. The number of viable heavy armor sets is shrinking with every patch.
Its not died. Less damage, but more both resourses. Heavy atacking in heavy is very simple.
Also some heavy sets like Truth or Seventh Legion, which compensate less damage from heavy.
I feel heavy still stronger than medium. At stamwarden extremly stronger. At stamplar and stamsopc simply stronger. And at stamdk ~ same crap as medium. Because of snare or burst heal dilemma.
Heavy armor is not "dead" and it shoudn't be dead.
Heavy armor is better ressource management for block build because consitution and ressource buff on heavies. For dk example can run medium because their ressource managment allow them to block sustain without medium. A stam sorc can go medium too if he choose a more kiting gameplay with streak + Dark deal.
Reply this to Dreth. I said ~ the same.
Yeah I missclick the quote sorry
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KingJ✭✭✭✭✭
✭
I tired that wasn't a fan and the best damage sets are heavy which kinda defeats the purpose it might work with truth but there to many undodgeable abilities for that setup to be effective you just take to much damage that you can't do a thing about in medium.1stly) we're not in a "heavy armor meta", we're in a "tank & dmg mitigation meta"
Blocking reduces more damage than anything else in game & blocking is being altered next patch.
2ndly) medium armor has "potentially" the BEST defensive option, it's called EVASION, meaning they don't take a % of the damage done to them, they take absolutely 0
Idk why there aren't tons of people running impreg jewelry & some well fitted 5 piece damage set stacking cp into dodge roll???0 -
deepseamk20b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »
Guess what? armor of the truth also has the weapon damage and it lasts 2x longer with almost permanent uptime, as long as you dodge something, it procs.Ragnarock41 wrote: »
Guess what? armor of the truth also has the weapon damage and it lasts 2x longer with almost permanent uptime, as long as you dodge something, it procs.
Guess what? Off balance has a 20 sec cooldown in the next patch.
Players are not boss enemies. Truth set will not change in its usefulness. Just watch whether or not you are doing a heavy attack while they are off balance.Hey everyone! Look! It's a signature!1 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »
Guess what? armor of the truth also has the weapon damage and it lasts 2x longer with almost permanent uptime, as long as you dodge something, it procs.Ragnarock41 wrote: »
Guess what? armor of the truth also has the weapon damage and it lasts 2x longer with almost permanent uptime, as long as you dodge something, it procs.
Guess what? Off balance has a 20 sec cooldown in the next patch.
well. shame if that change works on players, but its still double the uptime of alchemist tho, even if it has a 20 sec cooldown.Edited by Ragnarock41 on January 25, 2018 6:14AM0 -
Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭7th procs for 5 seconds, cooldown is 2. Therefore the proc will outlast the cooldown no? The only that takes a hit is the heal.
As for heavy I think you don’t realize how many stamina builds are actually playing medium right now. On my stam sorc I can get the same resists as heavy armor with more wpn damage, more mobility, more regen, more stamina, higher crit and access to shuffle. There’s almost no reason to play heavy.
id like to see that build. i doubt you can get 5k weapon dmg while also maintaining 21k resists (26k with snb) in medium. also id pick forward momentum and increased healing and max hp/regen from heavy and the 25% more stam regen on heavy attacks + constitution over shuffle and like what? 5% more crit? any day of the week. dont get me wrong, im not saying medium is completely bad but better than heavy? nope, not even close.
In fact I can get pretty damn close on top of 2k stam regen about 37k stam, 27k health and 13k mag. And imo the ability to use shuffle is far more useful in mitigating damage than a bit more resist, and the cost reduction from medium is much nicer. I’ve always hated heavy armor.Edited by Vapirko on January 25, 2018 1:00PM0 -
lao✭✭✭✭7th procs for 5 seconds, cooldown is 2. Therefore the proc will outlast the cooldown no? The only that takes a hit is the heal.
As for heavy I think you don’t realize how many stamina builds are actually playing medium right now. On my stam sorc I can get the same resists as heavy armor with more wpn damage, more mobility, more regen, more stamina, higher crit and access to shuffle. There’s almost no reason to play heavy.
id like to see that build. i doubt you can get 5k weapon dmg while also maintaining 21k resists (26k with snb) in medium. also id pick forward momentum and increased healing and max hp/regen from heavy and the 25% more stam regen on heavy attacks + constitution over shuffle and like what? 5% more crit? any day of the week. dont get me wrong, im not saying medium is completely bad but better than heavy? nope, not even close.
In fact I can get pretty damn close on top of 2k stam regen about 37k stam, 27k health and 13k mag. And imo the ability to use shuffle is far more useful in mitigating damage than a bit more resist, and the cost reduction from medium is much nicer. I’ve always hated heavy armor.
i guess it comes down to playstyle aswell. for me its the exact opposite, i always hated medium armor. the only class i run medium on is NB. (for obvious reasons) the only other class id consider it maybe viable would be DK. i dont like to rely on shuffle as a defensive tool as its completely unpredictable and as a snare removal forward momentum is just infinity times better. cost reduction on medium is completely negated if not trumped by heavy attack weaving + constitution. this is especially true in the CP campaigns due to tenacity. also heavy just has better sets overall. outside of BP and maybe automaton there arent very many decent medium sets.0 -
LordSemaj✭✭✭✭✭Even with the nerf to 7th, it's not going to go away.Edited by LordSemaj on January 26, 2018 1:54AM0 -
Emmagoldman✭✭✭✭✭
✭Just curious, why is 7th legion's nerf seen as destroying the set. It will have a 2 sec nerf, is that 2 sec worth throwing into the trash?0 -
lao✭✭✭✭Emmagoldman wrote: »Just curious, why is 7th legion's nerf seen as destroying the set. It will have a 2 sec nerf, is that 2 sec worth throwing into the trash?
no its just ppl overreacting as usual. it may not be BiS after the patch anymore but its definitaly still very good and more than viable.0 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Emmagoldman wrote: »Just curious, why is 7th legion's nerf seen as destroying the set. It will have a 2 sec nerf, is that 2 sec worth throwing into the trash?
no longer heal spam. and without the heal there are better sets that work more reliably, seventh was used for its heal.Edited by Ragnarock41 on January 26, 2018 8:24PM0 -
lao✭✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »Emmagoldman wrote: »Just curious, why is 7th legion's nerf seen as destroying the set. It will have a 2 sec nerf, is that 2 sec worth throwing into the trash?
no longer heal spam. and without the heal there are better sets that work more reliably, seventh was used for its heal.
wrong. it was used for the burst potential, the heal is just a nice bonus. truth costs too much ressources to proc the dmg bonus unless you run a medium set on your main bar and truth on the backbar and who in his right mind wants to run 5 medium in a meta where half the attacks in the game ignore dodge.0 -
Firstmep✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I recently switched to heavy on my stamplar, mainly to use forward momentum. The thing is once you get used to not having rally, Fm is so much superior to shuffle its not even funny.
Sure Major evasion is nice, but fm costs a fracture of what shuffle does and last more than 2x as long.
I can actually kite better than i could in medium, i need less regen since constitution and heavy attacks, not to mention not having to cast the expensive shuffle every 3 seconds. You throw on a set of Tk and youll hardly feel the need to have rally in most cases.
My damage is nearly the same as un medium, since i dont need to invest into passive recovery as much, i get 10% extra hp which means i need less (or none) try glyphs to get my hp to a comfortable level, which means i can have a higher stamina pool.
My crit rate went down only a little, due to med armor giving crit bonuses per piece rather than on the 5 piece like light.
I could go on about naturally higher resistances without the use of Brass or armor master, etc but you guys get the idea.
Now is this 100% better than medium? I dont know, but for how i play(lot of un and out of fighting, lots of kiting) It works better for me.
And its sad that i feel more mobile in heavy, than i ever did in medium
Also have a stam warden, which actually has a burst heal without rally, and there the difference is even more noticable.0 -
thedude33✭✭✭✭✭I feel like medium armor is more than useless right now
Medium armour was just like all stamina abilities and classes nerfed below level. ZOS hates Stamina, stamina builds, abilities, skills and ofc also all their armour.
So it gor nerfed, nerfed, nerfed and, oh, did I mentioned nerfed!?
Go anywhere in the game, you see 90% staves running around, 8 % 2-handed-users in heavy and less then 2% bow, DW in medium sneaking through the backallies of this game.
Prices for Rubedo-leather at any store, just do not talk about it, nobody needs it...............
and so all ppl went heavy in PvP, thinking and hoping they would be unkillable now,
and thereafter they start a new tread here about "this killed me, so it got to be nerfed, cauze I am such an awesome player, it is impossible that I died that way"
short report about the game in current status ^^
The DJT effect is creeping into video game 'facts'
Sad !
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QuebraRegra✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnaroek93 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »Kinda ironic.
Medium armor is for stam users, but if bows (especially from stealth and taking advantage of how multiple hits can land at once) and 2H didn't hit so hard ppl wouldn't flock to heavy.
Or do I have it wrong?
quite the opposite, you are terribly wrong.
Bows hit hard, yes. But bow skills are dodgeable, and some of the strongest ones are reflectable. same with 2h skills. All 2h skills are dodgeable as far as I know, even brawler.
And dodging is the power of medium armor. a good stamblade will almost NEVER get hit by a dizzying swing.
(dodge roll into suprise attack weave, then cloak to confuse the hell out of the dizzy swing user, almost always works.)
there is a very good reason why stamsorcs are weak right now. both bow and 2h has reliability issues.
Then why nobody uses medium, if its so darn effective?
Because its not that effective against everything.
Because all magicka tons have undodgable burst tools.
And in some cases there is no way of stopping incoming burst from a magicka toon.
magden with bird spam+insane burst with their shalks combo.
magDk with their literally unstoppable petrify into power lash combo.
magsorcs with their undodgeable,unblockable burst and they do have a 28 meter undodgeable CC , which they combine with meteor.
magplars with their undodgeable jabs and beams...
you see, medium unpopularity has NOTHING to do with heavy armor being ''strong'' and everything to do with how magicka abilities work against it.
So as a result heavy armor is popular on stamina toons. Especially for solo players.
IF you nerf heavy armor, you're not doing medium any favors, you're just destroying stamina in PvP.
I agree with most of this. I think you missed one important aspect : The main reason I run heavy on my stamsorc is not magicka, I build to survive medium armor nightblades burst after fear in outnumbered situations. This has always been the benchmark for my stamina builds (whether they are able to survive an unblocked NB assault) and this is true for most of the stamina players I know.
stamblade is the exception to my list of reasons why medium armor is weak.
I just forgot to mention it.
Stamblade is a thing that uses medium armor to one or two shot other medium armor builds.
I'm getting so much hate for saying this, but medium armor will stay as a nightblade exclusive as long as they synergize so good with it.
Remember when heavy armor had block cost reduction? Only made sense to use it on a Dk back then.
Same thing with medium and stamblades. I mean, why play a medium armor anything when you can be a stamblade and have cloak, have assassin's whatever that procs for 10k damage, have fear, have amazing sustain,have a fast spammable you can weave with, best single target ult in the game, have literally anything you need to be a medium armor build?
I think every stam Nb will agree that Cloak needs a nerf if medium armor gets buffed.
Cloak is a problem because of nb tears in the first place.
ZOS couldn't fix it , so instead of fixing it they made it a god mode + invisibility button.
Its not just dizzying swing, they are also TOTALLY IMMUNE to dot builds.
Which would be totally fine , if there was a limit or downside to the cloak spam.
In my opinion its abusing cheesy mechanics and shouldn't be a thing,
A stamblade using cloak to gain an unfair advantage is fine, but Dk blockcasting is considered broken.
love this community man.
wait whut!?!?!? how is cloak GOD MODE? Ok then, let's revert it back to the days when it removed DOTs instead.. fair trade.1 -
LeagueTroll✭✭✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »Kinda ironic.
Medium armor is for stam users, but if bows (especially from stealth and taking advantage of how multiple hits can land at once) and 2H didn't hit so hard ppl wouldn't flock to heavy.
Or do I have it wrong?
quite the opposite, you are terribly wrong.
Bows hit hard, yes. But bow skills are dodgeable, and some of the strongest ones are reflectable. same with 2h skills. All 2h skills are dodgeable as far as I know, even brawler.
And dodging is the power of medium armor. a good stamblade will almost NEVER get hit by a dizzying swing.
(dodge roll into suprise attack weave, then cloak to confuse the hell out of the dizzy swing user, almost always works.)
there is a very good reason why stamsorcs are weak right now. both bow and 2h has reliability issues.
Then why nobody uses medium, if its so darn effective?
Because its not that effective against everything.
Because all magicka tons have undodgable burst tools.
And in some cases there is no way of stopping incoming burst from a magicka toon.
magden with bird spam+insane burst with their shalks combo.
magDk with their literally unstoppable petrify into power lash combo.
magsorcs with their undodgeable,unblockable burst and they do have a 28 meter undodgeable CC , which they combine with meteor.
magplars with their undodgeable jabs and beams...
you see, medium unpopularity has NOTHING to do with heavy armor being ''strong'' and everything to do with how magicka abilities work against it.
So as a result heavy armor is popular on stamina toons. Especially for solo players.
IF you nerf heavy armor, you're not doing medium any favors, you're just destroying stamina in PvP.
Yeah, and these folks complain about bird spammers?
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Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »Kinda ironic.
Medium armor is for stam users, but if bows (especially from stealth and taking advantage of how multiple hits can land at once) and 2H didn't hit so hard ppl wouldn't flock to heavy.
Or do I have it wrong?
quite the opposite, you are terribly wrong.
Bows hit hard, yes. But bow skills are dodgeable, and some of the strongest ones are reflectable. same with 2h skills. All 2h skills are dodgeable as far as I know, even brawler.
And dodging is the power of medium armor. a good stamblade will almost NEVER get hit by a dizzying swing.
(dodge roll into suprise attack weave, then cloak to confuse the hell out of the dizzy swing user, almost always works.)
there is a very good reason why stamsorcs are weak right now. both bow and 2h has reliability issues.
Then why nobody uses medium, if its so darn effective?
Because its not that effective against everything.
Because all magicka tons have undodgable burst tools.
And in some cases there is no way of stopping incoming burst from a magicka toon.
magden with bird spam+insane burst with their shalks combo.
magDk with their literally unstoppable petrify into power lash combo.
magsorcs with their undodgeable,unblockable burst and they do have a 28 meter undodgeable CC , which they combine with meteor.
magplars with their undodgeable jabs and beams...
you see, medium unpopularity has NOTHING to do with heavy armor being ''strong'' and everything to do with how magicka abilities work against it.
So as a result heavy armor is popular on stamina toons. Especially for solo players.
IF you nerf heavy armor, you're not doing medium any favors, you're just destroying stamina in PvP.
So what can be done?
Stay outta range lmao or just dodge to the side0 -
Draxys✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Itemization is one of the big issues here. Take some of the high damage 5 pieces away from heavy and either give them to medium, or make more 5 piece medium sets more desirable. Possibly give medium a specific type of damage resistance (not tons but something noticeable).2013
rip decibel0 -
montiferus✭✭✭✭✭Itemization is one of the big issues here. Take some of the high damage 5 pieces away from heavy and either give them to medium, or make more 5 piece medium sets more desirable. Possibly give medium a specific type of damage resistance (not tons but something noticeable).
It would be better if they just buff a couple of medium sets as opposed to nerfing the damage based heavy sets. If 7th, Ravager, Fury et all didn't have the damage buffs they currently have heavy would be gone in a heartbeat. Medium armor passives are actually really good. Its the sets that are weak.0 -
FearlessOne_2014✭✭✭✭✭
✭How can. I save my wood elf sorc?
I turned my wood elf scrc. Into a Mem Orc Sorc
The before = https://i.imgur.com/DMO2tFw.png
And the after = https://i.imgur.com/IfSinBj.pngEdited by FearlessOne_2014 on February 2, 2018 6:10PM0
