Suggestion: Guild Trader Revamp.

Anotherone773 · January 2018

Yes, this is a guild trader thread. No, its not a must have Global Trader/ Auction House system.

Revamp:

1) Add a global search feature to the guild trader system. That way we can see who has an item and for how much, but we still have to go physically get it. Can give it a delayed update to limit people from using the system to corner the market. Maybe a 1 or 2 hour delay on the update.

2) Add a Consignment Trader to each of the alliances. A consignment trader is similar in function to a guild trader. But has a few differences.
- There is only one per alliance , preferably placed near a wayshrine but not in one of the busier cities.
- You dont need to be in a guild to use it.
- You may post 10 items at any one time per account per Consignment trader ( Total of 30)
- Unlike the guild trader, you have to physically go to the Consignment trader to buy and sell.
- Consignment traders have more expensive listing fees and house cuts than guild traders.
It would allow people to sell without having to join a trade guild, but to do any serious trading they will still have to use trade guilds. It would also allow a semi centralized place to buy, but likely for higher prices than what you could get at the guild traders.

3)Guild Store Changes:
A) Traders will be added and redistributed. Guild traders will be a tier based system:
* Tier 5 - Capital city( including Vivic City) traders - 12 each per city.
* Tier 4 - Large city traders - 7 to 10 each per city.
* Tier 3 - Secondary city traders - 4 to 6 per city
* Tier 2 - Wayshrine traders - 2 to 3 per wayshrine for most non city wayshrines.
* Tier 1 - Trade Camps/caravans -4 to 6 traders ( see below)
* Tier 0 - 2 Traders per refuge, mage guild, fighter guild.

B)Tier System:
* Guilds will compete for better traders( tiers) by becoming good traders. No more, " my guild is rich, so we are going to buy the best spot to sell our 250 items, while the guild that posts thousands of items is stuck with no trader"
* Your tier placement will be based on your gross outside income( guild member to guild member does not count) as follows:
- Tier 5 = Top 20% of guilds by gross income
- Tier 4 = Next 20% of guilds by gross income
- Tier 3 = Next 20% of guilds
- Tier 2 = Next 20% of guilds.
- Tier 1 = Bottom 20% of guilds.

* Each week your gross volume will be ranked in comparison to other guilds. You may then bid on traders within that tier only.

* If you lose your bid, and have no trader, you have two options:
- You can bid on Tier 0 traders. Tier 0 trader auction starts as soon as the regular auction ends and ends 24 hours after the regular auction. You get the trader until the next regular auction( they like a day off). Any guild can bid on these traders as long as they do not currently have a trader.
- You can hire any unused traders in your tier or any tier under yours on a first come, first serve basis. The prices are as follows:
*Tier 5- 500k gold
*Tier 4- 250k gold
*Tier 3- 100k gold
*Tier 2 - 50k gold
*Tier 1 - 10k gold
*Tier 0 - 100k gold(Hired after Tier 0 Auction, last until the next regular auction)

C) Trade Camps. Trade Camps are simply a group of traders( and usually a merchant) that cannot get a spot in a better location. They offer their services, cheap. The camps are usually at a crossroads, bridge, or other area that sees traffic but is not in a city or at a wayshrine. They are a place for beginners.

D) Top Guild Reward: The top guild in terms of gross sales for the week( the benchmark for the tiers) will keep their guild trader for the week for the hire fee of that trader.

FAQS:

* Why are mage/fighter guild and refuges not included in the tier of the city they are in? Answer: Because they are out of the way rather than the high traffic areas around city shrines. They also act as a saving grace for those who lost a bid in their tier that want to hold on to decent trade. And for those who want to move through tiers quickly.

* Why a tier system instead of the system we have? Answer: First it allows to add more traders without diluting competitiveness. Second, the guilds that get the top spots should do so because they earned it not because they or their members are rich but mostly inactive. Ive ran across a few traders that were in decent to good spots that didnt have very much for sale or it was really high priced. But because they are rich they can afford to nab the trader every time, even if they do a low volume of sales. This way, guilds that do a high volume of sales, keep their store stock, guild active, and have reasonable prices have the best shot at the best traders rather than the richest guy wins. Did i mention it would add some interesting gameplay to the economy?

*What if my guild is top tier and lose our spot and cant get any trader for that week?Answer: Then someone dropped the ball. You will have to bid on Tier 1 or Tier 0 traders, or hire one of these to get your foot back in the door. If you have no outside gross income, then you will be considered tier 1 in the next round of bids.

* Its not fair that you work hard to get to top tier and you can lose it! Answer: Sure it is. Your guilds failure at securing any trader that week allows other guilds to get a little better footing. Its healthy competition when a few guilds cant guarantee domination.

* Why would anyone want a trader in a "trade camp"? Answer: Well as they say a crappy trader is better than no trader. Besides with a global search feature you can price shop. You just have to do a little more leg work. I anticipate you pay the highest prices buying from high tier traders and get the best bargains from tier 1.

* Why a global search but not global trader/market? Answer: Because finding anything in guild traders without add-ons is an absolute nightmare. Its like sifting through a hoarder's basement...in the dark. Global search allows you find items without having to visit every single trader. But you still have to do the leg work to go get the item. And with a delay in updates( the trader you are at updates instantly all others are delayed), it makes it harder for trade moguls to game the system to attempt to dominate trade of an item.

*Why a consignment trader? Answer: Its a compromise. Some people dont want to be in trade guilds, especially since a majority of decent ones have some fee requirement so they can get store every week. Some players dont want to become that dedicated to trading but still want to be able to sell stuff to other players. On the other hand, the usual option, a global market, usually does more harm to a games economy than good. So a consignment trader, allows players to sell a few trinkets in game without becoming committed to trade guilds and their fees and without breaking the economy.

* How are the tiers figured? I dont understand. Answer: You have a min and max. The max will be the top grossing guild for the week. The min will always be 0. Example: The top guild did 1 million in gross outside sales. They will keep their trader for the hire fee. The rest of guilds will fall into one of the brackets in this case:
- Tier 5 = 800k to 1 mil
- Tier 4 = 600k to 799k
- Tier 3 = 400k to 599k
- Tier 2 = 200k to 399k
- Tier 1 = 0 to 199k.
- Tier 0 = Any guild that does not have a trader.

H3Li0S · January 2018

Anotherone773 wrote: »

1) Add a global search feature to the guild trader system. That way we can see who has an item and for how much, but we still have to go physically get it. Can give it a delayed update to limit people from using the system to corner the market. Maybe a 1 or 2 hour delay on the update.

Thats all i want, reminds me of FF14 when it first release, had merchant ward but no search function it was a mess. Search function would fix everything. Just have the best way to implement it, Search function faction wise, city wise or even global idk but it would be awesome.

Acrolas · January 2018

Keyword searches at each kiosk would be one of the least disruptive features to implement, so if we were to get additional features that would probably be included.

It might not hurt to add a new trader location for each DLC dungeon pack to expand the trader system at least one additional time per year. But I'm pretty sure no matter how many sites are available, individuals will still spam zone chat and guilds without traders will still trade within their guild. Also, I skip over thousands of listings a week because they're not priced competitively or they're just junk items that should have been sold to a vendor. Having a marketplace does not magically turn people into salesmen.

Milvan · January 2018

Guild store system is great. It's very immersive and dinamic.

It does need some ui upgrades.

Ohtimbar · January 2018

Milvan wrote: »

It does need some ui upgrades.

This. It seems like guilds haven't received any feature updates since launch. Fast search filters are needed. We need a way to assign a guildhall in the ui. General lag when retrieving trader inventory, searching transaction history, etc. Not to mention the atrociously slow, feature-poor mail system.

Diminish · January 2018

I've always advocated for a change in guild trader functionality in this game. I took a break just prior to Clockwork City, and when I came back we had transmutation. This alone makes it so much more apparent that we need a damn search feature in traders. Before it was simpler because you basically narrowed your search by divines/impen/sharpened 90% of the time for any weapons/armor. Now with transmutation I'll buy that pos traited invigorating armor piece I need, and happily transmute it to save a multiple thousands of gold. The problem is, now I have to search all traits, and go through pages and pages of items to see if a specific trader has the piece I want at the lowest price. It sucks about as the monopoly on trader kiosks in general. Biggest let down of this game are the economy features and structure.

Ermiq · January 2018

Anotherone773 wrote: »

1) Add a global search feature to the guild trader system. That way we can see who has an item and for how much, but we still have to go physically get it. Can give it a delayed update to limit people from using the system to corner the market. Maybe a 1 or 2 hour delay on the update.

Makes no sense. Global search with prices is just a global auction, but with a nesessity to walk to the trader. You said that you're not going to ask for global auction but you do that.

Anotherone773 wrote: »

* Why a tier system instead of the system we have? Answer: First it allows to add more traders without diluting competitiveness. Second, the guilds that get the top spots should do so because they earned it not because they or their members are rich but mostly inactive. Ive ran across a few traders that were in decent to good spots that didnt have very much for sale or it was really high priced. But because they are rich they can afford to nab the trader every time, even if they do a low volume of sales. This way, guilds that do a high volume of sales, keep their store stock, guild active, and have reasonable prices have the best shot at the best traders rather than the richest guy wins. Did i mention it would add some interesting gameplay to the economy?

So, you say that top trading guilds are reach not because they trade much but because they are reach? They don't trade, but they have a lot of money. Where they take that money from?

Ok, I know and I'll tell you. One of my trading guilds had a trader in Skywatch, it was good but not the best place. And still it was quite hard to keep that place, our GM had to spend his own money to make a big enough bids. Where did he got his money? He's a trader, he sell stuff in his own guild and in some other guilds. He's not reach because he's just reach. He has money because he does trade a lot. Now that guild has a trader in Vivec city and gross income is significantly better that it was in Skyreach.
And now I want to ask, what doesn't allow you to trade a lot with the current system? I'm not the best trader, but still I am in 5 trading guilds, 3-4 of them have a trader all the time.
What I want to say is if someone want to trade in this game and he knows what to do he will find the way. If someone don't know what he's doing and he puts tons of junk in a guild store (and overpriced junk more often) than it won't work. Those guild stores you've seen (with 250 items)... Well, if that is a good stuff then they'll probably do it, but it may happen that they will lose that spot this weekend. Anyway, there's no reason for someone to make a cosmic bids to keep the top spot while the guild's gross is not good. If someone still paying high price for that trader than it means that they're doing fine, don't you think?

Also, the fact that top guilds and guild members have to spend a lot of money to get/keep best trader (even if they don't sell much on this week) is actually a good thing. Gold sink. The more gold they all have the bigger bids they'll make the more they have to spend. It's healthy for game economy and this system works perfectly fine, if you ask me.

Anotherone773 wrote: »

*Why a consignment trader? Answer: Its a compromise. Some people dont want to be in trade guilds, especially since a majority of decent ones have some fee requirement so they can get store every week. Some players dont want to become that dedicated to trading but still want to be able to sell stuff to other players. On the other hand, the usual option, a global market, usually does more harm to a games economy than good. So a consignment trader, allows players to sell a few trinkets in game without becoming committed to trade guilds and their fees and without breaking the economy.

Did they forbid "WTS/WTB" in zone chat? People're selling and buying stuff in zones everyday. I myself buy and sell some stuff with the zone chat from time to time. It works just fine.

Anotherone773 wrote: »

* Why a global search but not global trader/market? Answer: Because finding anything in guild traders without add-ons is an absolute nightmare. Its like sifting through a hoarder's basement...in the dark. Global search allows you find items without having to visit every single trader. But you still have to do the leg work to go get the item. And with a delay in updates( the trader you are at updates instantly all others are delayed), it makes it harder for trade moguls to game the system to attempt to dominate trade of an item.

Yes, we all need a search function in trader's interface. Find something in a guild store without addons is a nightmare, indeed. But maybe that's all we need? I think the game doesn't need a global auction-like search, it needs just a good friendly trader interface with filters and text search.

Amadis001 · January 2018

> A) Traders will be added and redistributed.

Why do you think we need _more_ traders? Right now there are existing traders at quite a few locations that are barely functional from week to week. It's almost as if a single person is selling their harvesting/questing haul. There's plenty of room for additional serious guilds to have a trader location.

Anotherone773 · January 2018

Makes no sense. Global search with prices is just a global auction, but with a nesessity to walk to the trader. You said that you're not going to ask for global auction but you do that.

Not at all a global auction allows me to sit in one spot and literally just trade all day without any real effort to move. Having a go somewhere to get something is a big difference. First, you have to actually be able to go there. Not everyone can go everywhere. Second, you have to make an effort to get there. Third, the results for all but the trader you are interacting with are delayed. That means your information is already old. A lot of differences.

So, you say that top trading guilds are reach not because they trade much but because they are reach? They don't trade, but they have a lot of money. Where they take that money from?

A majority of my money in this game does not come from trading. How did i get that money if i didnt trade? In fact only about 25% of my income comes from trading. Trading is not the only way to make money in this game, its just the most obvious to most people.

And now I want to ask, what doesn't allow you to trade a lot with the current system? I'm not the best trader, but still I am in 5 trading guilds, 3-4 of them have a trader all the time.

So your average up time for a guild trader is about 70%(3-4 out of 5 times)? Seems like there is a trader shortage on your server. There is also one on mine. Every guild has to do raffles and events and games to get more money than they make to secure a guild trader. That alone tells you the system is broken.

Well, if that is a good stuff then they'll probably do it, but it may happen that they will lose that spot this weekend. Anyway, there's no reason for someone to make a cosmic bids to keep the top spot while the guild's gross is not good. If someone still paying high price for that trader than it means that they're doing fine, don't you think?

Nope, in a case that comes to mind, the same guild has been there for at least 4 weeks straight and they still have very little to nothing in the store. Also the few dozen times i have been by there to shop or otherwise i have not seen one person use that store, but the other several stores were all being used.

Also, the fact that top guilds and guild members have to spend a lot of money to get/keep best trader (even if they don't sell much on this week) is actually a good thing. Gold sink. The more gold they all have the bigger bids they'll make the more they have to spend. It's healthy for game economy and this system works perfectly fine, if you ask me.

I guess if you dont run a trade guild and have to mess with raffles, lotteries, events for enough money to secure a trader and you are happy with 70% up time on traders and you dont mind paying a bunch of gold to secure a trader sometimes, then its a great system. But i honestly dont know many people in game that think the system is good. They just think its better than having a global system where people can play trade wars without ever leaving the trade interface.

Yes, we all need a search function in trader's interface. Find something in a guild store without addons is a nightmare, indeed. But maybe that's all we need? I think the game doesn't need a global auction-like search, it needs just a good friendly trader interface with filters and text search.

So you want "awesomeguildstore"? Its an add-on.

Why do you think we need _more_ traders? Right now there are existing traders at quite a few locations that are barely functional from week to week. It's almost as if a single person is selling their harvesting/questing haul. There's plenty of room for additional serious guilds to have a trader location.

That would depend on your server and just because someone sells only junk or a low volume of things in a store, doesnt mean they pay a cheap price to sell it there. It just means they spend more money than anyone else at that location. How do you know thats not a group of friends, or secondary accounts that make bank in their primary stores and use that one for extra people ( IE: Guild #2) and the guild trader is just helping them recruit new blood?

I can think of lots of all kinds of possibilities why you have a seemingly crap store but they get the location week after week and only one of those and the least likely is because no one else wants it.

ZOS_Holden · January 2018

Hi Anotherone773,

Thanks so much for taking the time to share your suggestion with us. These are all very interesting. very well thought out ideas. A global search feature for the guild trader system, in particular, sounds great!

Obviously, we can't promise your ideas will be used, but we do truly appreciate your suggestions and feedback. Please feel free to share any others you may have, especially anything as well thought out as these.

Jamini · January 2018

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Yes, this is a guild trader thread. No, its not a must have Global Trader/ Auction House system.

You had my attention, now you have my interest

Revamp:

1) Add a global search feature to the guild trader system. That way we can see who has an item and for how much, but we still have to go physically get it. Can give it a delayed update to limit people from using the system to corner the market. Maybe a 1 or 2 hour delay on the update.

Perfectly fine. We have this on PC (effectively) with TTC anyway.

2) Add a Consignment Trader to each of the alliances. A consignment trader is similar in function to a guild trader. But has a few differences.
- There is only one per alliance , preferably placed near a wayshrine but not in one of the busier cities.
- You dont need to be in a guild to use it.
- You may post 10 items at any one time per account per Consignment trader ( Total of 30)
- Unlike the guild trader, you have to physically go to the Consignment trader to buy and sell.
- Consignment traders have more expensive listing fees and house cuts than guild traders.
It would allow people to sell without having to join a trade guild, but to do any serious trading they will still have to use trade guilds. It would also allow a semi centralized place to buy, but likely for higher prices than what you could get at the guild traders.

30 free slots seems excessive. I do like the idea, but I'd argue it should be closer to 5 slots per alliance. (15 slots) to encourage people into trade guilds. Ideally you want anyone selling in notable scale to be in a trade guild.

3)Guild Store Changes:
A) Traders will be added and redistributed. Guild traders will be a tier based system:
* Tier 5 - Capital city( including Vivic City) traders - 12 each per city.
* Tier 4 - Large city traders - 7 to 10 each per city.
* Tier 3 - Secondary city traders - 4 to 6 per city
* Tier 2 - Wayshrine traders - 2 to 3 per wayshrine for most non city wayshrines.
* Tier 1 - Trade Camps/caravans -4 to 6 traders ( see below)
* Tier 0 - 2 Traders per refuge, mage guild, fighter guild.

More traders is a good idea, though finding locations for them might be tricky. Some cities are already pretty cluttered with traders.

B)Tier System:
* Guilds will compete for better traders( tiers) by becoming good traders. No more, " my guild is rich, so we are going to buy the best spot to sell our 250 items, while the guild that posts thousands of items is stuck with no trader"

I've never really seen this last more than a week or two in any popular spot

* Your tier placement will be based on your gross outside income( guild member to guild member does not count) as follows:
- Tier 5 = Top 20% of guilds by gross income
- Tier 4 = Next 20% of guilds by gross income
- Tier 3 = Next 20% of guilds
- Tier 2 = Next 20% of guilds.
- Tier 1 = Bottom 20% of guilds.

* Each week your gross volume will be ranked in comparison to other guilds. You may then bid on traders within that tier only.

* If you lose your bid, and have no trader, you have two options:
- You can bid on Tier 0 traders. Tier 0 trader auction starts as soon as the regular auction ends and ends 24 hours after the regular auction. You get the trader until the next regular auction( they like a day off). Any guild can bid on these traders as long as they do not currently have a trader.
- You can hire any unused traders in your tier or any tier under yours on a first come, first serve basis. The prices are as follows:
*Tier 5- 500k gold
*Tier 4- 250k gold
*Tier 3- 100k gold
*Tier 2 - 50k gold
*Tier 1 - 10k gold
*Tier 0 - 100k gold(Hired after Tier 0 Auction, last until the next regular auction)

Increasing trade tier may be pretty hard, especially if a new trade guild is just starting out. Volume of sales at out-of-the-way traders is pretty low unless you grossly undercut.

C) Trade Camps. Trade Camps are simply a group of traders( and usually a merchant) that cannot get a spot in a better location. They offer their services, cheap. The camps are usually at a crossroads, bridge, or other area that sees traffic but is not in a city or at a wayshrine. They are a place for beginners.

Seems fair, but aren't these just effectively Tier 1/0 traders outside of towns?

D) Top Guild Reward: The top guild in terms of gross sales for the week( the benchmark for the tiers) will keep their guild trader for the week for the hire fee of that trader.

I like this. It encourages guild competition for the top sales spot.

FAQS:

* Why are mage/fighter guild and refuges not included in the tier of the city they are in? Answer: Because they are out of the way rather than the high traffic areas around city shrines. They also act as a saving grace for those who lost a bid in their tier that want to hold on to decent trade. And for those who want to move through tiers quickly.

* Why a tier system instead of the system we have? Answer: First it allows to add more traders without diluting competitiveness. Second, the guilds that get the top spots should do so because they earned it not because they or their members are rich but mostly inactive. Ive ran across a few traders that were in decent to good spots that didnt have very much for sale or it was really high priced. But because they are rich they can afford to nab the trader every time, even if they do a low volume of sales. This way, guilds that do a high volume of sales, keep their store stock, guild active, and have reasonable prices have the best shot at the best traders rather than the richest guy wins. Did i mention it would add some interesting gameplay to the economy?

*What if my guild is top tier and lose our spot and cant get any trader for that week?Answer: Then someone dropped the ball. You will have to bid on Tier 1 or Tier 0 traders, or hire one of these to get your foot back in the door. If you have no outside gross income, then you will be considered tier 1 in the next round of bids.

* Its not fair that you work hard to get to top tier and you can lose it! Answer: Sure it is. Your guilds failure at securing any trader that week allows other guilds to get a little better footing. Its healthy competition when a few guilds cant guarantee domination.

* Why would anyone want a trader in a "trade camp"? Answer: Well as they say a crappy trader is better than no trader. Besides with a global search feature you can price shop. You just have to do a little more leg work. I anticipate you pay the highest prices buying from high tier traders and get the best bargains from tier 1.

* Why a global search but not global trader/market? Answer: Because finding anything in guild traders without add-ons is an absolute nightmare. Its like sifting through a hoarder's basement...in the dark. Global search allows you find items without having to visit every single trader. But you still have to do the leg work to go get the item. And with a delay in updates( the trader you are at updates instantly all others are delayed), it makes it harder for trade moguls to game the system to attempt to dominate trade of an item.

*Why a consignment trader? Answer: Its a compromise. Some people dont want to be in trade guilds, especially since a majority of decent ones have some fee requirement so they can get store every week. Some players dont want to become that dedicated to trading but still want to be able to sell stuff to other players. On the other hand, the usual option, a global market, usually does more harm to a games economy than good. So a consignment trader, allows players to sell a few trinkets in game without becoming committed to trade guilds and their fees and without breaking the economy.

* How are the tiers figured? I dont understand. Answer: You have a min and max. The max will be the top grossing guild for the week. The min will always be 0. Example: The top guild did 1 million in gross outside sales. They will keep their trader for the hire fee. The rest of guilds will fall into one of the brackets in this case:
- Tier 5 = 800k to 1 mil
- Tier 4 = 600k to 799k
- Tier 3 = 400k to 599k
- Tier 2 = 200k to 399k
- Tier 1 = 0 to 199k.
- Tier 0 = Any guild that does not have a trader.

This seems well thought-out and designed.

Unfortunately it will likely never be implemented.

+1 to you for a very nice idea though.

Jamini · January 2018

ZOS_Holden wrote: »

Hi Anotherone773,

Thanks so much for taking the time to share your suggestion with us. These are all very interesting. very well thought out ideas. A global search feature for the guild trader system, in particular, sounds great!

Obviously, we can't promise your ideas will be used, but we do truly appreciate your suggestions and feedback. Please feel free to share any others you may have, especially anything as well thought out as these.

I really hope you guys do implement some of this. It's a pretty damn nice expansion of the existing system.

Also it's nice to see someone from ZoS take interest in a good idea like this one.

KanedaSyndrome · January 2018

With the tiered system and it being bound to income, how does that pan out of guilds where people sell small cheap items? Recipies don't make much income, so people would simply stop selling that stuff.

A part of me is against being able to do global search. It makes it very hard to move items from one area to another for a profit, since prices will very fast converge to pure supply and demand, which you may say is fine, and it is, but only in a world where travelling to different places takes time. We can all instantly teleport to any place in Tamriel, which would completely remove any ability to move goods around for a profit (right now we move them from guild to guild).

Also, you may only have made a small portion of your money from trading, but for me trading is a major part of the game. I'm 100% for improvements to trade, but any update should benefit sellers as much as it does buyers. This current system seems aimed at only helping out the buyers.

KanedaSyndrome · January 2018

Now we're in the theme of improvements to the trading game, I'd love to be able to get a stall at my house where I can sell and buy stuff from visitors. It would probably work with an NPC that you can place in your house. I might want to offer certain prices for crafting materials and in turn I might sell gear or furniture. You get the idea

Give people a reason to visit my home other than it being awesomely decorated. Perhaps let us set up different homes that people can visit, instead of just the current primary residence. That way I can have my home and I can have a house dedicated and decorated as a shop.

Carbonised · January 2018

I would like to see traders de-coupled from guilds. I am in 5 big trade guilds and I need them all to sell my stuff and provide me with income for my expenses.
That means I have 0 spots free for social guilds, PvE guilds, PvP or anything.

I don't know how the system would work, but I think it's silly being forced to have 4-5 trade guilds if you're really big on selling and trading like I am, and then have no space left for the actual guilds.

Jamini · January 2018

Carbonised wrote: »

I would like to see traders de-coupled from guilds. I am in 5 big trade guilds and I need them all to sell my stuff and provide me with income for my expenses.
That means I have 0 spots free for social guilds, PvE guilds, PvP or anything.

I don't know how the system would work, but I think it's silly being forced to have 4-5 trade guilds if you're really big on selling and trading like I am, and then have no space left for the actual guilds.

No offense but if you are in five big trade guilds you either play far too much, or don't sell your stuff for reasonable prices in my humble opinion.

Or you resell stuff.

Either way, it's pretty clear you are heavily focused on trading. Being in five trade guilds makes complete sense, in that case.

MrGarlic · January 2018

I am especially in favour of players being able to use a consignment trader so they can still sell without being in a trading guild with a guild trader.

Please ZOS, implement this.

(Oh yeah, also the global search option too.)

Also, I want to be able to set up buy orders.

kip_silverwolf · January 2018

Keyword search is what's really needed for traders.

Also, a filter system so we have the option to only show stuff we want to see (e.g motifs or recipes we haven't learnt) would be handy as well

Anotherone773 · January 2018

30 free slots seems excessive. I do like the idea, but I'd argue it should be closer to 5 slots per alliance. (15 slots) to encourage people into trade guilds. Ideally you want anyone selling in notable scale to be in a trade guild.

I was torn on this idea. I considered 5 slots, but then you have to go to each alliance, since these traders you have to interact with directly to sell. I also considered a centralized location, but thats to much like an AH. I would like to see some sort of trade mechanism that allows people who dont want to mess with trade guilds a place to sell a few items. This is what i settled on.

More traders is a good idea, though finding locations for them might be tricky. Some cities are already pretty cluttered with traders.

That is mostly because of how they are implemented in the game. Each trader has a huge footprint meaning 5 traders take up more space than a large inn. In the cities i would make it a circular building. With a circular counters in the inside of the wheel for traders and then counters broken by doorways on the outside walls. And while it would be relatively close to a shrine it wouldnt be on top of the shrine like in some places.

Increasing trade tier may be pretty hard, especially if a new trade guild is just starting out. Volume of sales at out-of-the-way traders is pretty low unless you grossly undercut.

Im hoping not as hard as you would think. Ive went out of my way to save 150 gold on a blue recipe and i would go out of my way to save a thousand on a purple. Figure purples go for tens of thousands and with the right items you could bump levels pretty quick. A few good traders or even a well stocked guild leader can really bump up your earning quickly.

Seems fair, but aren't these just effectively Tier 1/0 traders outside of towns?

Tier 1 are trade camps. Its the tier you start out on. There are a few clustered together( could even be one big camp in a zone with more traders to make it more appealing to go there to shop since they are in the middle of nowhere). Tier 0 traders are in refuges and npc guild halls. They are basically a free for all anyone can bid on second chance auction for a good spot. You still get to be in a city, just not a prime trade spot in the city. But if you take Vulkhel Guard for example, the woodworking station is right next to the fighters guild and the mage's guild is not far off the crafting area. So would still be decent spots.

Thannazzar · January 2018

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Yes, this is a guild trader thread. No, its not a must have Global Trader/ Auction House system.

Revamp:

1) Add a global search feature to the guild trader system. That way we can see who has an item and for how much, but we still have to go physically get it. Can give it a delayed update to limit people from using the system to corner the market. Maybe a 1 or 2 hour delay on the update.

2) Add a Consignment Trader to each of the alliances. A consignment trader is similar in function to a guild trader. But has a few differences.
- There is only one per alliance , preferably placed near a wayshrine but not in one of the busier cities.
- You dont need to be in a guild to use it.
- You may post 10 items at any one time per account per Consignment trader ( Total of 30)
- Unlike the guild trader, you have to physically go to the Consignment trader to buy and sell.
- Consignment traders have more expensive listing fees and house cuts than guild traders.
It would allow people to sell without having to join a trade guild, but to do any serious trading they will still have to use trade guilds. It would also allow a semi centralized place to buy, but likely for higher prices than what you could get at the guild traders.

3)Guild Store Changes:
A) Traders will be added and redistributed. Guild traders will be a tier based system:
* Tier 5 - Capital city( including Vivic City) traders - 12 each per city.
* Tier 4 - Large city traders - 7 to 10 each per city.
* Tier 3 - Secondary city traders - 4 to 6 per city
* Tier 2 - Wayshrine traders - 2 to 3 per wayshrine for most non city wayshrines.
* Tier 1 - Trade Camps/caravans -4 to 6 traders ( see below)
* Tier 0 - 2 Traders per refuge, mage guild, fighter guild.

B)Tier System:
* Guilds will compete for better traders( tiers) by becoming good traders. No more, " my guild is rich, so we are going to buy the best spot to sell our 250 items, while the guild that posts thousands of items is stuck with no trader"
* Your tier placement will be based on your gross outside income( guild member to guild member does not count) as follows:
- Tier 5 = Top 20% of guilds by gross income
- Tier 4 = Next 20% of guilds by gross income
- Tier 3 = Next 20% of guilds
- Tier 2 = Next 20% of guilds.
- Tier 1 = Bottom 20% of guilds.

* Each week your gross volume will be ranked in comparison to other guilds. You may then bid on traders within that tier only.

* If you lose your bid, and have no trader, you have two options:
- You can bid on Tier 0 traders. Tier 0 trader auction starts as soon as the regular auction ends and ends 24 hours after the regular auction. You get the trader until the next regular auction( they like a day off). Any guild can bid on these traders as long as they do not currently have a trader.
- You can hire any unused traders in your tier or any tier under yours on a first come, first serve basis. The prices are as follows:
*Tier 5- 500k gold
*Tier 4- 250k gold
*Tier 3- 100k gold
*Tier 2 - 50k gold
*Tier 1 - 10k gold
*Tier 0 - 100k gold(Hired after Tier 0 Auction, last until the next regular auction)

C) Trade Camps. Trade Camps are simply a group of traders( and usually a merchant) that cannot get a spot in a better location. They offer their services, cheap. The camps are usually at a crossroads, bridge, or other area that sees traffic but is not in a city or at a wayshrine. They are a place for beginners.

D) Top Guild Reward: The top guild in terms of gross sales for the week( the benchmark for the tiers) will keep their guild trader for the week for the hire fee of that trader.

FAQS:

* Why are mage/fighter guild and refuges not included in the tier of the city they are in? Answer: Because they are out of the way rather than the high traffic areas around city shrines. They also act as a saving grace for those who lost a bid in their tier that want to hold on to decent trade. And for those who want to move through tiers quickly.

* Why a tier system instead of the system we have? Answer: First it allows to add more traders without diluting competitiveness. Second, the guilds that get the top spots should do so because they earned it not because they or their members are rich but mostly inactive. Ive ran across a few traders that were in decent to good spots that didnt have very much for sale or it was really high priced. But because they are rich they can afford to nab the trader every time, even if they do a low volume of sales. This way, guilds that do a high volume of sales, keep their store stock, guild active, and have reasonable prices have the best shot at the best traders rather than the richest guy wins. Did i mention it would add some interesting gameplay to the economy?

*What if my guild is top tier and lose our spot and cant get any trader for that week?Answer: Then someone dropped the ball. You will have to bid on Tier 1 or Tier 0 traders, or hire one of these to get your foot back in the door. If you have no outside gross income, then you will be considered tier 1 in the next round of bids.

* Its not fair that you work hard to get to top tier and you can lose it! Answer: Sure it is. Your guilds failure at securing any trader that week allows other guilds to get a little better footing. Its healthy competition when a few guilds cant guarantee domination.

* Why would anyone want a trader in a "trade camp"? Answer: Well as they say a crappy trader is better than no trader. Besides with a global search feature you can price shop. You just have to do a little more leg work. I anticipate you pay the highest prices buying from high tier traders and get the best bargains from tier 1.

* Why a global search but not global trader/market? Answer: Because finding anything in guild traders without add-ons is an absolute nightmare. Its like sifting through a hoarder's basement...in the dark. Global search allows you find items without having to visit every single trader. But you still have to do the leg work to go get the item. And with a delay in updates( the trader you are at updates instantly all others are delayed), it makes it harder for trade moguls to game the system to attempt to dominate trade of an item.

*Why a consignment trader? Answer: Its a compromise. Some people dont want to be in trade guilds, especially since a majority of decent ones have some fee requirement so they can get store every week. Some players dont want to become that dedicated to trading but still want to be able to sell stuff to other players. On the other hand, the usual option, a global market, usually does more harm to a games economy than good. So a consignment trader, allows players to sell a few trinkets in game without becoming committed to trade guilds and their fees and without breaking the economy.

* How are the tiers figured? I dont understand. Answer: You have a min and max. The max will be the top grossing guild for the week. The min will always be 0. Example: The top guild did 1 million in gross outside sales. They will keep their trader for the hire fee. The rest of guilds will fall into one of the brackets in this case:
- Tier 5 = 800k to 1 mil
- Tier 4 = 600k to 799k
- Tier 3 = 400k to 599k
- Tier 2 = 200k to 399k
- Tier 1 = 0 to 199k.
- Tier 0 = Any guild that does not have a trader.

Or just use Tamriel Trade Centre and Master Merchant Addons.......

Spacemonkey · January 2018

This really is one of the better ideas/suggestions to the trading thing.

And to those that keep shoving the *just use addons* back to any idea that may upset their income ; give it a rest. Everyone knows the trade thing is bonkers. Most people that come to the game are stumped at the fact they cant list their stuff anywhere without joining a guild that has a trader - let alone actually FIND something to buy. If we NEED to use addons for any of this to make any sense, then clearly theres a problem.

OPs post is well thought out, keeps the essence and spirit of the current guild system, and adds a new dimension to the <trading> game - with incentives to do well and possible rewards also.

A cookie to you OP

Cpt_Teemo · January 2018

H3Li0S wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

1) Add a global search feature to the guild trader system. That way we can see who has an item and for how much, but we still have to go physically get it. Can give it a delayed update to limit people from using the system to corner the market. Maybe a 1 or 2 hour delay on the update.

Thats all i want, reminds me of FF14 when it first release, had merchant ward but no search function it was a mess. Search function would fix everything. Just have the best way to implement it, Search function faction wise, city wise or even global idk but it would be awesome.

Swg had that as well

Cpt_Teemo · January 2018

Thannazzar wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Yes, this is a guild trader thread. No, its not a must have Global Trader/ Auction House system.

Revamp:

1) Add a global search feature to the guild trader system. That way we can see who has an item and for how much, but we still have to go physically get it. Can give it a delayed update to limit people from using the system to corner the market. Maybe a 1 or 2 hour delay on the update.

2) Add a Consignment Trader to each of the alliances. A consignment trader is similar in function to a guild trader. But has a few differences.
- There is only one per alliance , preferably placed near a wayshrine but not in one of the busier cities.
- You dont need to be in a guild to use it.
- You may post 10 items at any one time per account per Consignment trader ( Total of 30)
- Unlike the guild trader, you have to physically go to the Consignment trader to buy and sell.
- Consignment traders have more expensive listing fees and house cuts than guild traders.
It would allow people to sell without having to join a trade guild, but to do any serious trading they will still have to use trade guilds. It would also allow a semi centralized place to buy, but likely for higher prices than what you could get at the guild traders.

3)Guild Store Changes:
A) Traders will be added and redistributed. Guild traders will be a tier based system:
* Tier 5 - Capital city( including Vivic City) traders - 12 each per city.
* Tier 4 - Large city traders - 7 to 10 each per city.
* Tier 3 - Secondary city traders - 4 to 6 per city
* Tier 2 - Wayshrine traders - 2 to 3 per wayshrine for most non city wayshrines.
* Tier 1 - Trade Camps/caravans -4 to 6 traders ( see below)
* Tier 0 - 2 Traders per refuge, mage guild, fighter guild.

B)Tier System:
* Guilds will compete for better traders( tiers) by becoming good traders. No more, " my guild is rich, so we are going to buy the best spot to sell our 250 items, while the guild that posts thousands of items is stuck with no trader"
* Your tier placement will be based on your gross outside income( guild member to guild member does not count) as follows:
- Tier 5 = Top 20% of guilds by gross income
- Tier 4 = Next 20% of guilds by gross income
- Tier 3 = Next 20% of guilds
- Tier 2 = Next 20% of guilds.
- Tier 1 = Bottom 20% of guilds.

* Each week your gross volume will be ranked in comparison to other guilds. You may then bid on traders within that tier only.

* If you lose your bid, and have no trader, you have two options:
- You can bid on Tier 0 traders. Tier 0 trader auction starts as soon as the regular auction ends and ends 24 hours after the regular auction. You get the trader until the next regular auction( they like a day off). Any guild can bid on these traders as long as they do not currently have a trader.
- You can hire any unused traders in your tier or any tier under yours on a first come, first serve basis. The prices are as follows:
*Tier 5- 500k gold
*Tier 4- 250k gold
*Tier 3- 100k gold
*Tier 2 - 50k gold
*Tier 1 - 10k gold
*Tier 0 - 100k gold(Hired after Tier 0 Auction, last until the next regular auction)

C) Trade Camps. Trade Camps are simply a group of traders( and usually a merchant) that cannot get a spot in a better location. They offer their services, cheap. The camps are usually at a crossroads, bridge, or other area that sees traffic but is not in a city or at a wayshrine. They are a place for beginners.

D) Top Guild Reward: The top guild in terms of gross sales for the week( the benchmark for the tiers) will keep their guild trader for the week for the hire fee of that trader.

FAQS:

* Why are mage/fighter guild and refuges not included in the tier of the city they are in? Answer: Because they are out of the way rather than the high traffic areas around city shrines. They also act as a saving grace for those who lost a bid in their tier that want to hold on to decent trade. And for those who want to move through tiers quickly.

* Why a tier system instead of the system we have? Answer: First it allows to add more traders without diluting competitiveness. Second, the guilds that get the top spots should do so because they earned it not because they or their members are rich but mostly inactive. Ive ran across a few traders that were in decent to good spots that didnt have very much for sale or it was really high priced. But because they are rich they can afford to nab the trader every time, even if they do a low volume of sales. This way, guilds that do a high volume of sales, keep their store stock, guild active, and have reasonable prices have the best shot at the best traders rather than the richest guy wins. Did i mention it would add some interesting gameplay to the economy?

*What if my guild is top tier and lose our spot and cant get any trader for that week?Answer: Then someone dropped the ball. You will have to bid on Tier 1 or Tier 0 traders, or hire one of these to get your foot back in the door. If you have no outside gross income, then you will be considered tier 1 in the next round of bids.

* Its not fair that you work hard to get to top tier and you can lose it! Answer: Sure it is. Your guilds failure at securing any trader that week allows other guilds to get a little better footing. Its healthy competition when a few guilds cant guarantee domination.

* Why would anyone want a trader in a "trade camp"? Answer: Well as they say a crappy trader is better than no trader. Besides with a global search feature you can price shop. You just have to do a little more leg work. I anticipate you pay the highest prices buying from high tier traders and get the best bargains from tier 1.

* Why a global search but not global trader/market? Answer: Because finding anything in guild traders without add-ons is an absolute nightmare. Its like sifting through a hoarder's basement...in the dark. Global search allows you find items without having to visit every single trader. But you still have to do the leg work to go get the item. And with a delay in updates( the trader you are at updates instantly all others are delayed), it makes it harder for trade moguls to game the system to attempt to dominate trade of an item.

*Why a consignment trader? Answer: Its a compromise. Some people dont want to be in trade guilds, especially since a majority of decent ones have some fee requirement so they can get store every week. Some players dont want to become that dedicated to trading but still want to be able to sell stuff to other players. On the other hand, the usual option, a global market, usually does more harm to a games economy than good. So a consignment trader, allows players to sell a few trinkets in game without becoming committed to trade guilds and their fees and without breaking the economy.

* How are the tiers figured? I dont understand. Answer: You have a min and max. The max will be the top grossing guild for the week. The min will always be 0. Example: The top guild did 1 million in gross outside sales. They will keep their trader for the hire fee. The rest of guilds will fall into one of the brackets in this case:
- Tier 5 = 800k to 1 mil
- Tier 4 = 600k to 799k
- Tier 3 = 400k to 599k
- Tier 2 = 200k to 399k
- Tier 1 = 0 to 199k.
- Tier 0 = Any guild that does not have a trader.

Or just use Tamriel Trade Centre and Master Merchant Addons.......

Again, shouldn't have to rely on outside mods to do a games job for itself and especially for consoles since they have no access to mods in the first place

Anotherone773 · January 2018

With the tiered system and it being bound to income, how does that pan out of guilds where people sell small cheap items? Recipies don't make much income, so people would simply stop selling that stuff.

What you will see is t4/t5 guilds selling most blue and above because of limited slots they need to generate the most income per slot. T3 will be a mix of green blue and some purple. T2 and T1 will be mostly low end items with a few high end thrown in. It would surprise me if vets are in a T5, T3, and a T2 and dividing their stock between them. with the T5 getting the high end, T3 getting the blues some greens, T2 getting left over green and whites such as ingredients.

A part of me is against being able to do global search. It makes it very hard to move items from one area to another for a profit, since prices will very fast converge to pure supply and demand, which you may say is fine, and it is, but only in a world where travelling to different places takes time. We can all instantly teleport to any place in Tamriel, which would completely remove any ability to move goods around for a profit (right now we move them from guild to guild).

When i first started playing i was looking for flour, so i started looking in guild stores. It was a frustrating experience. Sifting through pages( after filtering) and pages only to hit the last page and it either was to expensive or they didnt have any.

I thought, " there must be an easier way to find what i need" and i found "awesomeguildstore". Well that significantly cut my sifting down( and i am thankful for the reduction in eye strain) but i still had to go to every store and search. And i didnt know if this was a good price or if this person was just gouging me on prices because he didnt know what he doing or hoped i didnt know better. So i heard about TTC, and that made life much easier.

I play a RPG, not a marketing game. I dont want to spend all my game time sifting through stores with different scenery, i want to spend it playing an MMORPG. I know to well the effects of having a global trade system has. It actually kills trade to the point where people dont even bother and just vendor everything. But a global search tool is necessity. The legwork is so you have to get there. And two things people forget about in this game is that not everyone has access to everything. I am a fairly new player and i cant get to half the zones at least unless i physically cross zone after zone. They also forget how lazy people are. Am i going to port to vivic city, find the right trader and buy my item to save 100 gold? maybe but i guarantee half the people in the game at least will go for the one in town first because they dont want to spend the 5 minutes it takes to get to the shrine, port, run and find the trader, buy, run back to the shrine, port, and go back to what they were doing.

Also, you may only have made a small portion of your money from trading, but for me trading is a major part of the game. I'm 100% for improvements to trade, but any update should benefit sellers as much as it does buyers. This current system seems aimed at only helping out the buyers.

What kind of help do you need? You mean help for the sellers like more trader slots, so you dont have only 60-70% up time on a trader? You mean not everyone competing for the same exact 30 or so traders like they do now? You mean knowing how good a trade guild is by what tier trader they have rather than them saying it? You mean not having to buy into raffles, lotteries, etc as a requirement so your guild can get a good trader and then you end up with only being able to sell to your guild mates for a week? You mean something that gives you more trading slots like a consignment trader in each alliance that basically gives you an entire guild worth of slots? Im seeing a lot in there that benefits sellers.

Give people a reason to visit my home other than it being awesomely decorated. Perhaps let us set up different homes that people can visit, instead of just the current primary residence.

Though i dont know how well something like this would work, i am always up for more functionality out of mostly vanity items. I want a home because its useful not because i want to become an interior decorator.

I don't know how the system would work, but I think it's silly being forced to have 4-5 trade guilds if you're really big on selling and trading like I am, and then have no space left for the actual guilds.

No offense, but people like you are one reason why most of the players like not having a global trade system. It only takes a handful of people with a lot of gold and that love to trade to completely ruin the system. And its usually people who have backgrounds in finance or economics, so they are quite good at manipulating and controlling the market.

One of my favorite MMOs( its a space MMO) has a completely player driven economy. But their is no global trade system. You still have to go somewhere to buy something. The finance and economic geniuses in that game break out graphs and spreadsheets and use all kinds of marketing techniques to nearly dominate the area they are in. The only thing that limits their power is the games mechanics which forces them to physically go to each spot to sell. If the game didnt limit this, the entire economy would collapse into chaos. And( i think) most of us vets of MMOs have experienced that sort of economic collapse because failsafes were not in place to prevent market domination.

idk · January 2018

1 there will not be a consignment trader. Besides the obvious reasons the cost to use it would have to be enormous. BTW, I can sell via a guild trader without neeeing a trading guild most weeks. One if my guild simply does a little work to get a cheap trader. Works most weeks. Bright idea.

2. The redistributing of traders, with what seems to be a quadrupling, or more of total traders, didn't seem to serve any purpose other than there will end up being one or two cities that are significantly better first stops than it is now.

The rest of it just asss unnecessary complexity and some of it seems borrowed. The changes really aren't needed and OP neither explains why he thinks they are needed nor really ponders the effect of his idea.

Kiralyn2000 · January 2018

Milvan wrote: »

Guild store system is great. It's very immersive and dinamic.

"Immersive & dynamic" is a pile of hooey. The system is user-unfriendly and goes out of it's way to make the economy hard to participate in from both a seller & buyer perspective.

What it is, is a truly amazing gold sink that sucks huge amounts out of the economy with bids. That's the single good feature of the system. (well, and I suppose the fact it's such an awful system encourages people to just vendor loot instead of adding it to the economy also helps keep supply low & therefore prices higher for the people who do try to sell things. Which is why they defend it's awfulness - they get better profit by keeping the number of competitors they have low. On the other hand, if players could actually find things to buy, sellers would sell more things. /shrug)

...that said, the addition of a keyword search to each kiosk would improve the current system a great deal.

Kuramas9tails · January 2018

The guild trader NPCs lie.

"Buying, Selling, Trading, right here."

You lie NPC. You lie to us all.

Appleblade · January 2018

Nice ideas. I wonder if a global search might distribute the business a bit better. I have one guild with a remote trader, and I can’t move even some popular items at less than half the going rate. No one ever goes there.

MilwaukeeScott · January 2018

Oh hell no.

Global by another name is still Global.

ClockworkCityBugs · January 2018

@Anotherone773
tell me what to do with guild traders in cyrodiil?

Anotherone773 · January 2018

idk wrote: »

1 there will not be a consignment trader. Besides the obvious reasons the cost to use it would have to be enormous. BTW, I can sell via a guild trader without neeeing a trading guild most weeks. One if my guild simply does a little work to get a cheap trader. Works most weeks. Bright idea.

2. The redistributing of traders, with what seems to be a quadrupling, or more of total traders, didn't seem to serve any purpose other than there will end up being one or two cities that are significantly better first stops than it is now.

The rest of it just asss unnecessary complexity and some of it seems borrowed. The changes really aren't needed and OP neither explains why he thinks they are needed nor really ponders the effect of his idea.

1. The consignment trader is limited to prevent abuse of a semi global trade system. Technically its alliance wide. The cost, i imagined, would be something like 5 gold to list 25% house cut( money sink since no player gets the house cut). It would be either a 7 or 14/15 day listing instead of 30 days.

Not all servers have the same availability. Im in a trade guild, a rather large one, and if we miss on the auction, there usually isnt one available. Dont assume because traders are plentiful on your server, they are on every server.

2. Actually it will be just the opposite. There are what 150-200 traders right now? T5 traders would have about 48 traders in 4 locations. But if your not doing the volume to be a T5 guild your not bidding on a T5 trader nor are you hiring an empty t5 trader afterwords.

So if the top guild, in my system, is grossing 100 mil a week and only 12 guilds gross more than 80 mil, then only 12 guilds get to bid on those 12 spots or hire from those 48 traders. The system is performance based. You get better locations by doing higher volume of sales. And once there are more guilds than traders in that tier, then you will have to compete for a trader.

No server will probably have 48 guilds that are within 20% of the top guild. Even if they all decide to collectively go to the same capital, you still have 4 other tiers that will have their own "prime spot" Not to mention T0 traders that are available in every city with a mage, fighter, or thieves guild.

In fact what you will see, is people spreading out more because tiers keep everyone from going after the same trader. Because of the amount of traders more guilds will hire a trader. Trade guilds become less important, so you see more blended guilds, raid guild with a trader, social guild with a trader, etc.

The money sink should be in hiring the trader, not forcing guild leaders to come up with gimmicks to get money from their members to bid a stupid amount on a single trader. Its a frustrating system all the way around. If the devs want to add more money sinks they can simply add a transaction tax on every item that is sold or raise the price of hiring the traders in the first place( my original draft has T5 traders going for 1 mil to hire and every other tier cost one step above what it does in this version)

And yes ive explained why the changes are needed and people have been begging for changes to the system since ive been on these forums. In fact their is nearly a thread every day about it, meaning it obviously bothers a lot of players. They want to see some attention given to the trade system. Throw us a bone, give us some type of improvement that makes it less of a nightmare.

This is completely my own creation. I just modified the current system, because modification is more likely than completely changing the system. If i created a system from scratch, it would be a whole concept rather than the afterthought this one seems to be. It would be interesting with multiple options based on your needs and play style.