Outfit system dye cost - doesn’t feel quite right for players

davey1107 · January 2018

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_Chris

I was trying to direct this to Chris Balser regarding the recent eso live. If this is going to Chris the coffee stand employee, sorry.

The outfit system seems great, but based on feedback on the pts and conversations I’m having, you’re making another one of those classic Zos blunders that creates far more angst than it brings benefits, and that is in adding a cost to dyes in the outfit system.

Players are used to dying for free. ESO Plus members are used to extra dye privileges for free. It does not matter that this is a new system...your reasoning for adding the fee stated in ESO Live. That’s not how consumers think. For most players, this introduces a hassle and cost they didn’t experience before, and that is annoying people (as reflected in multiple posts).

The way I and many players use the current dye system is to hone and fine tune our dyes. I make a section of my chest blue, go play for a while and decide it’s too bright...so I tone it down. Then decide it should be more blue-green. Etc. Even if the cost is only 100 gold to make these adjustments, every time I go to the dye station I will feel ripped off and pissed at the development team. Is that reasonable? Not really...I have millions gold in my bank, it’s not like dye costs are going to affect me.

But I feel annoyed, and this affects my attitude toward Zos, and affects whether I want to spend real world money on other things. To be more specific - I’m not saying I’d boycott the crown store out of annoyance. I’m saying there is a psychological effect of buying something that satisfies a consumer desire to obtain / change something. When I go spend 10k at an outfit station, that feels mentally like “okay, I’ve bought something today, no need to spend more.” And if I spend a lot on outfit changes I will satisfy that purchase desire, and possibly pass up the crown store senche pet I kind of want.

I then have to ask what benefit it brings to the game. If the cost is tiny, then what is the point of it as a gold sink? If the cost is substantial, it hurts new players and does nothing but annoy vets. And it’s making plus subscribers feel ripped off, which maybe isn’t justified, but that’s how consumers think.

If you continue on with this cost as delivered on the PTS, then the moment this launches live you are going to get post after post after post after post with players demanding it be free, or an ESO Plus benefit. It is going to be like the housing slot limit or housing storage...except in this case players will no there is no reason you can’t turn off the costs. People will gripe and gripe, and you’ll have to make the changes eventually...so you might as well make them before it goes live, and tell players you wanted to gift them something.

The benefits to Zos of free dying far outweigh any benefit the costs have to the game. By all means, nickel and dime people in the crown store, but don’t do it where there’s no benefit to you...it’s just foolish.

programcanaan · January 2018

normal dyes are still free

and outfits are dyed forever. no more running back to the dye station every time you get an upgrade

edit: perhaps Eso plus infinite outfit system use should be added. Like Costumes.

NyassaV · January 2018

My paramount issue is that there is a major difference between what ZOS thinks is rare and what the player base thinks is rare. And they are setting the prices.

Apache_Kid · January 2018

None of anything in this new system should cost any gold but the dyes especially should be free. The lighting in this game is an ever changing variable that makes something look great in one area and terrible in another. As OP said dye is something that is changed frequently.

Taleof2Cities · January 2018

Agree with the OP.

I just paid 10k in gold for one outfit (including dyes) to outfit my new character template ...

duendology · January 2018

I agree, I agree, I agree!
The pricing system is really, really flawed. It's not even implemented and I don't like it already because of that ridiculous pricing. Needless to say that mist often than not you already paid good amount of money for the motif itself..

And...paying for dyeing? Seriously?

Elsonso · January 2018

davey1107 wrote: »

The outfit system seems great, but based on feedback on the pts and conversations I’m having, you’re making another one of those classic Zos blunders that creates far more angst than it brings benefits, and that is in adding a cost to dyes in the outfit system.

Players are used to dying for free. ESO Plus members are used to extra dye privileges for free. It does not matter that this is a new system...your reasoning for adding the fee stated in ESO Live. That’s not how consumers think. For most players, this introduces a hassle and cost they didn’t experience before, and that is annoying people (as reflected in multiple posts).

I agree. ZOS disagrees, and that is really all that matters. The one point where Chris Balser could have said why, all that was said was, "it is what it is." I would like to understand why they are charging for Dyes. Specifically.

Carbonised · January 2018

lordrichter wrote: »

davey1107 wrote: »

The outfit system seems great, but based on feedback on the pts and conversations I’m having, you’re making another one of those classic Zos blunders that creates far more angst than it brings benefits, and that is in adding a cost to dyes in the outfit system.

Players are used to dying for free. ESO Plus members are used to extra dye privileges for free. It does not matter that this is a new system...your reasoning for adding the fee stated in ESO Live. That’s not how consumers think. For most players, this introduces a hassle and cost they didn’t experience before, and that is annoying people (as reflected in multiple posts).

I agree. ZOS disagrees, and that is really all that matters. The one point where Chris Balser could have said why, all that was said was, "it is what it is." I would like to understand why they are charging for Dyes. Specifically.

Obviously it's cash greed, to sell more outfit tokens so you don't have to pay the gold.

And obviously he can't say that directly on a live stream, hence the convoluted non-answer.

Septimus_Magna · January 2018

I agree that the cost is a little high if you want to change your outfit on a regular basis.
However, I understand that it should be different than dying with picking the armor/weapon style.

My proposition would be to make each style/color change cost something like 1k to unlock for each gear slot. So if I use Motif Master Brown for the chest of my outfit and decide to change it to Warrior Steel it wont cost me any gold to change it back. But I cannot change my pants to Motif Master Brown without paying for it.

The bottom line is that revering to a previous color scheme shouldnt cost gold.

Elsonso · January 2018

Carbonised wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

davey1107 wrote: »

The outfit system seems great, but based on feedback on the pts and conversations I’m having, you’re making another one of those classic Zos blunders that creates far more angst than it brings benefits, and that is in adding a cost to dyes in the outfit system.

Players are used to dying for free. ESO Plus members are used to extra dye privileges for free. It does not matter that this is a new system...your reasoning for adding the fee stated in ESO Live. That’s not how consumers think. For most players, this introduces a hassle and cost they didn’t experience before, and that is annoying people (as reflected in multiple posts).

I agree. ZOS disagrees, and that is really all that matters. The one point where Chris Balser could have said why, all that was said was, "it is what it is." I would like to understand why they are charging for Dyes. Specifically.

Obviously it's cash greed, to sell more outfit tokens so you don't have to pay the gold.

And obviously he can't say that directly on a live stream, hence the convoluted non-answer.

Because this is a B2P/F2P game, there is always the specter that they are using game design to drive revenue. It is something that has to be considered with everything that they do. Sometimes, it is obvious, like with the Outfit Slots. Other times, it is less clear, like with Outfit Tokens.

There are only three common reasons behind something like a gold charge for dying outfits. This would be a mix of monetization, gold sink, and to discourage use. Not in equal measures.

I can't see a reason why they would want to discourage people from using the Outfit system, so that it is more rare in the game, or discourage people from using it too much.

As it stands today on PTS, there is really no push to use Outfit Tokens. The outfits are enduring, which means that for a relatively fixed gold cost, an outfit can be set up, and it does not need to change for a long long time. Maybe never. I think that most players in the game, if they even use an Outfit, will fall into this category. If monetization is a component of the reason behind dyes, it is a token reason (pun intended). The Director of Game Monetization simply said "ok, but not for free", and as long as they charge something, they avoid a spanking.

I don't think that the gold cost they have on PTS for dying outfits is much of a gold sink. The style charge is a much better gold sink, given that it is variable and based on the style, where dye is just a flat charge. Still, all indications are that this is a major component of the reason they charge for dyes.

A fourth reason is "philosophical" in nature. Righting a previous wrong, or doing something the "proper" way. This would happen if they are looking back at Dye System with some regret. Maybe, if they had to do it again, they would not allow equipment and costumes to be dyed for free. They aren't going to change the Dye System and they aren't going to start charging gold to color armor and costumes, but they also are not going to repeat the "mistake". This could be part of the reason.

They are never going to answer my intellectual curiosity about why they are charging for dying outfits. I am going to stand by three of them, in descending order: They don't like the free dyes they put into Dye System because it denies them a recurring gold sink, so they add it to Outfit system, with the side effect that it also has a benefit to help monetization.