It's the PvP Sheilds, duh.....

Crom_CCCXVI · January 2018

I hear a lot of proposed changes to balance PvP, increase damage.. messing with Off Balance, you won't be able to spam the same skill in a row etc, etc...

The problem with PvP is everyone always has a sheild, and nothing works on sheilds.
I really don't want to see sweeping changes to the game where once again, builds I worked on for years (like Concussion Build DK ) are suddenly worthless.. , this has been the discussion for years with why rotations don't work, PVE doesn't translate as well to PVP.

Most players in Cyrodil have sheilds
--- you can't Crit a sheild
-- you can't apply status effects, burning, chilled, concussed to sheild users..
there is huge reason why you don't see complex rotations in PVP, they don't work.....

If sheilds were just damage absorbers, that would be the beginning

(I also realize about 80% of PvP is one of 2 forms of a sheild stacking Sorc. I have one too. It's the easiest class in the game to play, you use two offensive skills, spam sheilds, hid behind pets, have a good self heal, can streak away, don't have to spread your champ points out like other classes, and you don't even have to target like stam classes, (not to mention Sheild Breaker was already nerfed off staves a few months ago)...... the targeting concept alone will still keep Sorcs OP, as you streak around and other classes can barely hit you)

Didgerion · January 2018

Shields are not that strong,

You have to really spec into max magica to have decent shields - but you do it in decrements of spell power and sustain.

And if you still struggle to go past someone's shields that means you encountered a strong player - with a good build.
If you would encountered the same player in a good Heavy Armor build you would have even more problems penetrating his armor.

I play magica sorc myself and yes - lots of people struggle to burn me down.
But on the other hand a good stamina build is melting me down in 10 seconds in 1v1 situation.
If they nerf shields there won't be magica sorc in PVP (they are already almost extinct)

Also please note that not all classes have Templar's heals - you have to give decent self heals to all classes if you are up to nerfing shields.

West93 · January 2018

Didgerion wrote: »

Shields are not that strong,

You have to really spec into max magica to have decent shields - but you do it in decrements of spell power and sustain.

And if you still struggle to go past someone's shields that means you encountered a strong player - with a good build.
If you would encountered the same player in a good Heavy Armor build you would have even more problems penetrating his armor.

I play magica sorc myself and yes - lots of people struggle to burn me down.
But on the other hand a good stamina build is melting me down in 10 seconds in 1v1 situation.
If they nerf shields there won't be magica sorc in PVP (they are already almost extinct)

Also please note that not all classes have Templar's heals - you have to give decent self heals to all classes if you are up to nerfing shields.

Templars lack mobility,burst and has no unblockable CC compared to magsorc. Solo magicka templars are extinct in cyro, not magsorcs, 99% magplars are just healbots running around zerg farming AP.

Lexxypwns · January 2018

Shields are very powerful when they’re not your only defense.

Lutallo · January 2018

The only two classes with a decently sized shield are a MagSorc and a Magblade. Even then, both of these classes without their shields are literally one bang victims. Neither class usually runs a Major Ward/Resolve buff, which means you're ignoring probably about 80% of their resistance (8-12k on my magblade for example) and neither class usually has over 22k health.

gibous · January 2018

Lutallo wrote: »

The only two classes with a decently sized shield are a MagSorc and a Magblade. Even then, both of these classes without their shields are literally one bang victims. Neither class usually runs a Major Ward/Resolve buff, which means you're ignoring probably about 80% of their resistance (8-12k on my magblade for example) and neither class usually has over 22k health.

I think you're forgetting about the shadow barrier passive for NB. Also a fair number of sorcs do use boundless storm, though I agree most light armor targets melt once the shields come down.

KingYogi415 · January 2018

Sorcs have been nerfed to the ground allready, at lest 4 other specs make sorcs look like trash.

Lexxypwns · January 2018

Lutallo wrote: »

The only two classes with a decently sized shield are a MagSorc and a Magblade. Even then, both of these classes without their shields are literally one bang victims. Neither class usually runs a Major Ward/Resolve buff, which means you're ignoring probably about 80% of their resistance (8-12k on my magblade for example) and neither class usually has over 22k health.

I’ve got a 10.5k harness on a mag warden...

VaranisArano · January 2018

Crom_CCCXVI wrote: »

(I also realize about 80% of PvP is one of 2 forms of a sheild stacking Sorc. I have one too. It's the easiest class in the game to play, you use two offensive skills, spam sheilds, hid behind pets, have a good self heal, can streak away, don't have to spread your champ points out like other classes, and you don't even have to target like stam classes, (not to mention Sheild Breaker was already nerfed off staves a few months ago)...... the targeting concept alone will still keep Sorcs OP, as you streak around and other classes can barely hit you)

I, uh...which platform/server/campaign do you play on?

I play on PC/NA Vivec and calling 80% of PVP a form of a shield-stacking sorc is a complete exaggeration that makes it very hard for me to take your complaints seriously.

Especially since shields might be one reason why complex skill rotations don't work, but better reason(s) why they don't work are:
A. Sustained constant damage like is preferred in PVE is much easier to counter/purge/heal through than overwhelming burst damage. That's why overwhelming burst damage is king in PVP.
B. No battle plan survives contact with the enemy. A complex rotation works pretty well against a boss who's moves you can predict. It doesn't work so well in the constantly changing and unpredictable environment of player vs player combat. Its much better to be reactive and flexible while lining up your own burst combos.

So its true that you don't see complex rotations in PVP because they don't work, but the reasons they don't work apply to everyone, not just shield users.

Didgerion · January 2018

West93 wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

Shields are not that strong,

You have to really spec into max magica to have decent shields - but you do it in decrements of spell power and sustain.

And if you still struggle to go past someone's shields that means you encountered a strong player - with a good build.
If you would encountered the same player in a good Heavy Armor build you would have even more problems penetrating his armor.

I play magica sorc myself and yes - lots of people struggle to burn me down.
But on the other hand a good stamina build is melting me down in 10 seconds in 1v1 situation.
If they nerf shields there won't be magica sorc in PVP (they are already almost extinct)

Also please note that not all classes have Templar's heals - you have to give decent self heals to all classes if you are up to nerfing shields.

Templars lack mobility,burst and has no unblockable CC compared to magsorc. Solo magicka templars are extinct in cyro, not magsorcs, 99% magplars are just healbots running around zerg farming AP.

Mobility is another story, but just to make it clear, Sorcs is not the most mobile class anymore. It is as follows.
Magica Templar/DK < Magica sorcs < Magica NB < Stamina builds < Stam Warden

But lets focus on shields here, as this thread is about it.
Just to bring one more argument against shileds nerf is the following:
NB's cloak is more powerful than one shield cast. Just enable your combat scroll text and see how 3 attacks in a row go missed - and then the next 3 seconds you try to figure out where he is (providing you successfully landed a curse right when he cloaked)

Ragnarock41 · January 2018

Its not just a magsorc thing.

Shields in general are ridicilous.

You can't crit it, penetration doesn't work on it, you can't apply status effects to it. Its the most solid defence in the entire game.

SirMewser · January 2018

No leave shields, streak, and surge alone, PvE is hurt enough as it is, and it doesn't need another nerf because some genius found a solution and tells the forums like we haven't "been there, done that".
If you honestly think changing the stated abilities again it going to solve anything, you are a fool.

Sorcs are not "OP" at the moment.
The game is already at a point where everyone is running; heavy attack, heavy armor, or non-mTemplar builds, so yeah, combat is sluggish. Classes have been losing fundamental aspects of their class for inconsequential reasons for the past few years, while some people here idiotically wonder, "why don't the devs respond?", are you serious? Look at the history of the game, the community doesn't even test the PTS before crying nerf because of what they have read in patch notes, it's no different than the short minded coming from PvP claiming that they can pin point the problem, so yeah I don't blame ZoS.

The reality is, you're emotionally distresses and don't know how to handle your feelings because a class gave you trouble, for the sake of nonrepudiation of that statement, you speak about pets like they are just wonderful in open AvA, otherwise, you are just trying to justify yourself in a personal 1v1 or BG instance, not sure but what is clear is that you want to further compromise the game.

Do you really want the game homogeneous?
I seriously hope you don't believe yourself.

Sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings, but do evaluate if this was relevant to you because if it did, it applies to how you think (interpersonally), it's probably because yes, I was talking about you, I was insulting you, and now that you've identified that "yes, this is how I think", maybe you should stop.

Constructive responses is very much appreciated though!

Waffennacht · January 2018

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Its not just a magsorc thing.

Shields in general are ridicilous.

You can't crit it, penetration doesn't work on it, you can't apply status effects to it. Its the most solid defence in the entire game.

Penetration doesn't work because it has no resist. You're getting full penetration each time.

Crits would make them even weaker.

Best players time their hard CC burst hitting you right before it lapses then finishing you off during the CC break

technohic · January 2018

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Its not just a magsorc thing.

Shields in general are ridicilous.

You can't crit it, penetration doesn't work on it, you can't apply status effects to it. Its the most solid defence in the entire game.

Well; they don’t have any damage reduction either.

clocksstoppe · January 2018

technohic wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Its not just a magsorc thing.

Shields in general are ridicilous.

You can't crit it, penetration doesn't work on it, you can't apply status effects to it. Its the most solid defence in the entire game.

Well; they don’t have any damage reduction either.

Do you not understand that being uncritable and unpenetrable is literal damage reduction?

Waffennacht · January 2018

clocksstoppe wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Its not just a magsorc thing.

Shields in general are ridicilous.

You can't crit it, penetration doesn't work on it, you can't apply status effects to it. Its the most solid defence in the entire game.

Well; they don’t have any damage reduction either.

Do you not understand that being uncritable and unpenetrable is literal damage reduction?

Uncritable is Reduction, but penetration is not cuz u gotta get through armor anyway making investment in it always valuable

Ragnarock41 · January 2018

Waffennacht wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Its not just a magsorc thing.

Shields in general are ridicilous.

You can't crit it, penetration doesn't work on it, you can't apply status effects to it. Its the most solid defence in the entire game.

Penetration doesn't work because it has no resist. You're getting full penetration each time.

Crits would make them even weaker.

Best players time their hard CC burst hitting you right before it lapses then finishing you off during the CC break

I didnt exactly called for a nerf here. Just told my opinion.
I was fine with shields till the defile meta came up again.

Now It kind of feels unfair again.

Mr_Gallows · January 2018

The biggest issue with ESO combat is the flash Gordon on crack, with stackable heal/shield/regen etc.

Remove drinks and regen buffs, glyphs, set effects etc. and instead set regen at a balanced base level. Balance skills that do give regen bonus.

Fix stacking of effects.
One HoT effect active at a time. Getting an instant heal should trigger a short healing recieved debuff, to avoid heal spam.
Shield effects should be completely revamped instead of just being a health buff.

Skill attack usage being a modifier to light/heavy attacks. You no longer use a skill to attack but use it to modify your heavy/light attacks. Press a skill, then use regular attacks to actually attack, you don't have to press the skill again if you want to use it over and over. Skills may have different effect based on how much you charge your attack.

Reduce the Benny Hillness by reducing run speed.

Then balance the game around that.

VaranisArano · January 2018

Mr_Gallows wrote: »

The biggest issue with ESO combat is the flash Gordon on crack, with stackable heal/shield/regen etc.

Remove drinks and regen buffs, glyphs, set effects etc. and instead set regen at a balanced base level. Balance skills that do give regen bonus.

Fix stacking of effects.
One HoT effect active at a time. Getting an instant heal should trigger a short healing recieved debuff, to avoid heal spam.
Shield effects should be completely revamped instead of just being a health buff.

Skill attack usage being a modifier to light/heavy attacks. You no longer use a skill to attack but use it to modify your heavy/light attacks. Press a skill, then use regular attacks to actually attack, you don't have to press the skill again if you want to use it over and over. Skills may have different effect based on how much you charge your attack.

Reduce the Benny Hillness by reducing run speed.

Then balance the game around that.

Try playing in No CP where no one gets the additional bonuses from CP or their passives. Sustain is considerably less, so you can't stack as much before running out of resources. That'll be the closest you get to this "let's change the way everything works to suit me" idea.

Otherwise, you're going to need to find another game. PVP in ESO doesn't work like that and I seriously doubt the devs are going to revamp PVP like that now.

brandonv516 · January 2018

I'm thinking if you want to be able to crit shields, shields should be able to crit when casted.

Biro123 · January 2018

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Its not just a magsorc thing.

Shields in general are ridicilous.

You can't crit it, penetration doesn't work on it, you can't apply status effects to it. Its the most solid defence in the entire game.

People still complain about penetration?????

Let me give an example of how it works.. (and yes, I'm making up numbers for it)

Lets assume your target has 20k resist from armour and you have 10k pen.. And lest say, for arguments sake (cos the numbers are easy) That 10k resists = 10% mitigation..
If you hit him for 10k dmg, without any penetration, he would take 8k dmg. (20% less)
If you hit him with your 10k penetration, he effectively has only 10k resists so would take 9k damage. (10% less).

Now if he had a damage shield up - and you hit him with that same hit. The shield will take 10k damage!! Yes, it's MORE.

What is it, exactly, you want penetration to do to this figure? Do you want the targets resists to also apply to the shield so that your penetration would then pierce it - so the shield instead takes only 9k damage? Is that what you're asking?

I mean yes, your penetration amount doesn't matter on a shield - but that's not because it treats it as zero - it treats it as being infinite... I don't know how much more than that you expect..

Because I really don't understand why this is a problem to people...

Irylia · January 2018

You people are dense.
No point in explaining the obvious for the xth time.

VaranisArano · January 2018

Irylia wrote: »

You people are dense.
No point in explaining the obvious for the xth time.

This would be substantially more insightful if you'd bothered to indicate which side of the argument you are on.

Dracane · January 2018

Shields can be critted on, it just deals no bonus damage and guess what ? Most people have so much critical resistance, that your crits, unless you don't empower them much, are completely negated.
Shields also take much more damage than health does. So if anything, shields need buffs..... After removing shield stack preferably.

I agree though, that status effects should be able to hit on shields.

technohic · January 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

You people are dense.
No point in explaining the obvious for the xth time.

This would be substantially more insightful if you'd bothered to indicate which side of the argument you are on.

LOL Read his sig

VaranisArano · January 2018

technohic wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

You people are dense.
No point in explaining the obvious for the xth time.

This would be substantially more insightful if you'd bothered to indicate which side of the argument you are on.

LOL Read his sig

The three sorcs? Look, you never know. I've seen plenty of people humble-bragging about how their builds should be nerfed because they are totally OP right alongside the groups that's like "No, no, my build is one nerf away from being useless and no one will ever play it again."

GreenSoup2HoT · January 2018

Id be fine with shields being able to crit if i can crit on shields. Sorcs have no where near the amount of crit chance and crit damage compared to my 7 medium stamblade. I would melt sorcs. Duel Dagger nb would melt shields.

Also note that a none crit shield would remove a crit shield if casted after, meaning a sorc would rather not shield stack if they notice they got a crit shield. Which kinda helps the shield stacking issue.

Also creates build variety instead of just stack magicka.

Overall id be down for this.

Biro123 · January 2018

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Id be fine with shields being able to crit if i can crit on shields. Sorcs have no where near the amount of crit chance and crit damage compared to my 7 medium stamblade. I would melt sorcs. Duel Dagger nb would melt shields.

Also note that a none crit shield would remove a crit shield if casted after, meaning a sorc would rather not shield stack if they notice they got a crit shield. Which kinda helps the shield stacking issue.

Also creates build variety instead of just stack magicka.

Overall id be down for this.

That's not how stacking works

Neoauspex · January 2018

The problem is that the counters for shields are so specific that they aren't worth investing in, whereas the counters for other defenses are standard for any build, diverse in a way that they have an impact on any fight (except against shields). Everyone has armor, so penetration is a good stat to have (except against shields), crit is a good RNG based way to add damage (except against shields). Etc.

We have one armor said that is a complete hard counter, but both sides of the coin hate this. Do away with it. Change the CP tree that increases damage to shields (which nobody uses) so that it increases penetration damage on shields. Then you have to weigh how much overall damage you want to sacrifice to counter this type of defense, just like everything else.

Sanctum74 · January 2018

Neoauspex wrote: »

The problem is that the counters for shields are so specific that they aren't worth investing in, whereas the counters for other defenses are standard for any build, diverse in a way that they have an impact on any fight (except against shields). Everyone has armor, so penetration is a good stat to have (except against shields), crit is a good RNG based way to add damage (except against shields). Etc.

We have one armor said that is a complete hard counter, but both sides of the coin hate this. Do away with it. Change the CP tree that increases damage to shields (which nobody uses) so that it increases penetration damage on shields. Then you have to weigh how much overall damage you want to sacrifice to counter this type of defense, just like everything else.

The shattering blows cp passive should not be changed in my opinion. For 56 points you can increase your damage against shields by 20% which works great. If you changed it to penetration damage on shields then the passive would be worthless since shields have no resistance you would do the same amount of damage no matter how many points you put into it. Shattering blows and a good burst combo with cc works every time.

Neoauspex · January 2018

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

The problem is that the counters for shields are so specific that they aren't worth investing in, whereas the counters for other defenses are standard for any build, diverse in a way that they have an impact on any fight (except against shields). Everyone has armor, so penetration is a good stat to have (except against shields), crit is a good RNG based way to add damage (except against shields). Etc.

We have one armor said that is a complete hard counter, but both sides of the coin hate this. Do away with it. Change the CP tree that increases damage to shields (which nobody uses) so that it increases penetration damage on shields. Then you have to weigh how much overall damage you want to sacrifice to counter this type of defense, just like everything else.

The shattering blows cp passive should not be changed in my opinion. For 56 points you can increase your damage against shields by 20% which works great. If you changed it to penetration damage on shields then the passive would be worthless since shields have no resistance you would do the same amount of damage no matter how many points you put into it. Shattering blows and a good burst combo with cc works every time.

Why would you CC before the shields expire... Ok I'm not gonna debate your strategy at this time.

But if you put points into Shattering Blows, then you are taking points out of another tree that adds damage so you're not gaining 20% damage. If it scaled in the same way as spell/weapon penetration, where having x shield penetration means x% of the damage you do to a shield bypasses the shield and damages the player's health, then you have to make the same choices balance-wise in your build as you do versus all other forms of mitigation.