Improving PVP for New Players: Introduce Item Quality Restrictions in Campaigns

joleda4ub17_ESO · January 2018

I spend most of my time in ESO in Cyrodiil and one of the biggest problems that I've found is people using Gold gear in the Under 50 campaign and the Non-vet campaign. There is a substantial difference in power between a set of Blue quality and a set of Gold quality. Truly new people (typically) don't have access to a set of Purple or Gold quality items. New Vet-level players (typically) don't have access to a set of Gold quality items. I propose the following system:

Under 50 Campaign: Items of Purple and Gold quality cannot be used.
Non-vet Campaign: Items of Gold quality cannot be used.

Whatcha think?

dotme · January 2018

Don't new players get a buff in the form of battle-leveling?

JamilaRaj · January 2018

dotme wrote: »

Don't new players get a buff in the form of battle-leveling?

They do. Not new players with gold gear too though.

joleda4ub17_ESO wrote: »

I spend most of my time in ESO in Cyrodiil and one of the biggest problems that I've found is people using Gold gear in the Under 50 campaign and the Non-vet campaign. There is a substantial difference in power between a set of Blue quality and a set of Gold quality. Truly new people (typically) don't have access to a set of Purple or Gold quality items. New Vet-level players (typically) don't have access to a set of Gold quality items. I propose the following system:
Under 50 Campaign: Items of Purple and Gold quality cannot be used.

Non-vet Campaign: Items of Gold quality cannot be used.

Whatcha think?

I think that genuinely new players are unable to assemble full sets to begin with, have crappy traits and enchants, if any, and are short of food, drinks and potions. In other words, power gap is already so great that that somebody has gold gear, while their random collection of what they found along the way is green at best, is least of their concerns.

Also, these issues are result of the Orsinium patch. Prior that patch, stats were normalized and items did not scale, therefore were largely useless, even flat out not functioning (set bonuses). That these issues presist for over two years now tells us something about ZOS's attitude towards the noob campaign. Heck, if it was not removing vet ranks (at which point it had to touch campaign rulesets), we would probably still have CPs there.

Vilestride · January 2018

Honestly I agree with your sentiment but I think a better solution is to just say players with characters above level 50 should just not be allowed in the below 50 campaign.

There needs to be a pvp environment where new players actually get to play against other new players. Gear aside having players with potentially 3 years PvP experience be able to go out and kill people fresh out of a tutorial is not a good way to encourage new players to start pvping.

esotoon · January 2018

Vilestride wrote: »

Honestly I agree with your sentiment but I think a better solution is to just say players with characters above level 50 should just not be allowed in the below 50 campaign.

How does that help someone who is new to PVP with a level 50+ character?

Instead of being able to start in an environment where there are many other players with no or little PVP experience, they will be forced to play in a campaign where virtually everyone has far more experience than them and likely are better equipped.

Vilestride · January 2018

Are you suggesting though that it's a common occurrence for pve trying pvp for the first time re roll new characters for this purpose anyway?

I think that circumstance is less of a priority than actual new players. Especially when you consider the other factors mentioned above such as gear. And at least a fully leveled player has a better basic idea of abilities builds sets combos ect.

But I dunno I guess the idea of some kind of matchmaking is crazy and only reserved for successful pvp games.

esotoon · January 2018

Vilestride wrote: »

Are you suggesting though that it's a common occurrence for pve trying pvp for the first time re roll new characters for this purpose anyway? .

I have no idea. I dont have any figures - no one does. I didnt start PVPing until I was over cp900, so it happens.

Thats the prob with these discussions, without actual data no one know how many players percentage wise are in fully gold gear etc. Yet people are suggesting implementations that could affect genuine new to pvp players.

Beardimus · January 2018

joleda4ub17_ESO wrote: »

I spend most of my time in ESO in Cyrodiil and one of the biggest problems that I've found is people using Gold gear in the Under 50 campaign and the Non-vet campaign. There is a substantial difference in power between a set of Blue quality and a set of Gold quality. Truly new people (typically) don't have access to a set of Purple or Gold quality items. New Vet-level players (typically) don't have access to a set of Gold quality items. I propose the following system:
Under 50 Campaign: Items of Purple and Gold quality cannot be used.

Non-vet Campaign: Items of Gold quality cannot be used.

Whatcha think?

100% no on the second one. Sotha Sil is not non-Vet, it's noCP. The majority of players in there are they as we prefer the pace of the action and dislike the zergs of vivec.

Kyne. Something should be done to stop experienced players re-rolling and staying in there. Maybe one pass through per account, it no solution is that good.

What if I want to help a mate that's just started and purple or gold his weopon?

I don't think ur addressing the root cause of problems in Kyne

Beardimus · January 2018

Maybe a solution is from when you enter Kyne you can only play there across your account for 30 days. Or 90 days. Then you locked out. True noobs only

A L10 pro with correct gear even blue will smash a L10 true noob mismatched non set gear no Impen is always the problem

milkbox · January 2018

If Kyne were restricted to only "true noobs" it would be an underpopulated campaign that moved at a snail's pace, which I think would be more of a turn-off to new pvp'ers than the current situation.

More than 50% of the current population would vanish.
No one could afford siege.
No one would have soul gems, so no one would get rezzed.
Grouping would be harder because most noobs are terrified to lead.
Players over level 30 would spend all their time explaining where the siege vendor is (and everything else about PvP)

I'm a case of an 800+ CP player who got a 2nd account *just* to learn PvP, because PvE endgame bores me. I started in Kyne in November, and I'm on my 2nd run through. I feel like there is still a lot I have to learn- and there's a lot of subtle tactics that I totally missed when trying to fight in the chaos of Vivec.

And I don't feel like I'm "smashing noobs" at all. I spend all of my AP on siege (which noobs steal) and forward camps (that noobs rez in). I blow through about 25-50 soul gems a night. I hang behind in a group to make sure slow horses aren't alone. All of my gear is crafted and nothing is ever better than purple (which is only for higher levels, as my battle-leveling wanes).

And I still get completely wrecked by better players. I get back up, and I charge at them again.

I'm fine with the idea of restricting gold weapons and monster sets, but it's the combination of experienced players and noobs that makes Kyne fun and fast-paced. I'm a little baffled by all the outrage and "WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE POOR DYING NOOBS!?" I see on these forums. Dying is how you learn. If you really hate dying, you're not going to like PvP, anyway. On any campaign.

Just my two cents.

gabriebe · January 2018

Yea, this is all nice in theory but as someone else said, the campaign would be completely and absolutely dead. If I had to guess, maybe only 20-30% of the Kyne population is noobs. Everyone else is rerolls.

Besides, someone with a vet character isn't necessarily an expert either. I had no idea what I was doing I'd say for the first 3 months of playing this game, but I already had a vet character by then. I thought I was the *** with 1600 spell damage on my 2nd character lol.

MercTheMage · January 2018

Lol seriously? Have you been in no CP pvp?
It's worse than Vivec. Dem oils

dotme · January 2018

joleda4ub17_ESO wrote: »

I spend most of my time in ESO in Cyrodiil and one of the biggest problems that I've found is people using Gold gear in the Under 50 campaign and the Non-vet campaign.

That sounds to me more like a possible "cause", not really a "problem" So in the interests of offering some helpful feedback, what exactly is the problem? Is it new players getting one-shotted and abandoning PvP, for example?

It's been a long time since I rolled a character to play in Kyne, so I don't know what it's like in there any more. I do know that calling for nerfs and asking the server to do more calculations is a never-ending path to eventual meltdown. After gold gear is removed, what do we remove next? Purple?

Battle-leveling is supposed to ease new players into PvP. Nothing prevents new players from coming in with purple or gold gear, although I'll acknowledge that golding out a level 30 set that you're going to out-level in 4 days does seem like a waste of time and in-game money. However, we need to reward people who take the time to improve their sets and build, otherwise what's the point? Everyone might as well run around in their underwear.

Anyway, it's good discussion but I'm lost as to what the real issue is (the issue which can allegedly be solved by removing gold gear from non-vet PvP).

vamp_emily · January 2018

I've been re-rolling in Kyne/blackwaters for years. Just the other day I went to Kyne at level 10 and I killed maybe 1 person ( with the help of others ) and died 10 times before leaving. I also must mention I have plenty of experience playing PvP and have 720 cp.

Restricting players from playing in Kyne would only hurt the campaign. The only real issues I see are the following:

1) population gaps. When 1 side has 2 times the population people tend to leave and fake emperors are crowned.
2) flopping sides. Players from under populated faction will flip to the side that has the most players. It happens.

When population is equal, on all sides, it will nerf the forum babies and make players work harder for their noob emperor achievement.

Someone made the comment "Buff all armor to gold" which really sounds like a solution for Kyne. I don't think they should restrict which sets we use but buffing armor to gold would make it a more even environment for all players.

Edit:
I kind of like the 'buff armor to gold' but then again I really don't think they should change the way it is now. I think they should just work on population balance and see what happens. If all sides have even pop then flip flopping wouldn't even be an issue.

joleda4ub17_ESO · January 2018

dotme wrote: »

joleda4ub17_ESO wrote: »

I spend most of my time in ESO in Cyrodiil and one of the biggest problems that I've found is people using Gold gear in the Under 50 campaign and the Non-vet campaign.

That sounds to me more like a possible "cause", not really a "problem" So in the interests of offering some helpful feedback, what exactly is the problem? Is it new players getting one-shotted and abandoning PvP, for example?

It's been a long time since I rolled a character to play in Kyne, so I don't know what it's like in there any more. I do know that calling for nerfs and asking the server to do more calculations is a never-ending path to eventual meltdown. After gold gear is removed, what do we remove next? Purple?

Battle-leveling is supposed to ease new players into PvP. Nothing prevents new players from coming in with purple or gold gear, although I'll acknowledge that golding out a level 30 set that you're going to out-level in 4 days does seem like a waste of time and in-game money. However, we need to reward people who take the time to improve their sets and build, otherwise what's the point? Everyone might as well run around in their underwear.

Anyway, it's good discussion but I'm lost as to what the real issue is (the issue which can allegedly be solved by removing gold gear from non-vet PvP).

I understand your viewpoint. My viewpoint is the same. I don't need the help in Kyne. This thread was not a call for nerfs.

Here is what is happening on PS4-NA, where I mainly play, and PC as far as I can tell. Long-time players have a character type they like to play. When that character reaches level 50, they bank the items, delete the character, and begin another character that is essentially the same. Sometimes there are changes to the re-rolled character, sometimes. This recycling of gear over time fills in the level cracks. Instead of having gear spaced at every 10 or 15 levels or so in the bank, the long-time players have gear that is spaced every 4 levels, and a few players have gear spaced every 2 levels. Also, much of the long-time player's gear is Purple or Gold, compared to the White, Green or Blue gear of newer players. These characters are more powerful than the characters of new players that are experiencing for the first time. Combine these more powerful characters with the knowledge of long-time players, and the power gap is large, if not enormous.

Battle leveling applied to a level 30 character in White gear, with no set pieces, is the same bonus as that applied to a level 30 character in Gold gear, with multiple set pieces.

Maybe I should've suggested that Purple and Gold gear get battle-leveled down to their Blue equivalent while in Cyrodiil on the Kyne campaign? Or, I could suggest that all gear gets battle-leveled up to their Gold equivalent while in Cyrodiil on the Kyne campaign? Neither of these suggestions would have much of an impact on the market since we're strictly talking about gear below level 50.

Long-time players already spend time planning their characters for Kyne to include certain skills, ultimates, foods, potions, poisons, etc. Newer players are much more hap-hazard in their approach since they're still learning the game. I'm simply suggesting that the difference between the two players should not be further exacerbated by large differences in gear quality and gear sets.

I should not have suggested: Non-vet Campaign: Items of Gold quality cannot be used. That was a great point by someone earlier in the thread.

Interesting discussion here regardless, which is the point.

[edit] spilln' 'n chit