IMO the biggest negative about bow is that the natural weapon dmg is 5-600 less then say 2h. Would be fun if dw got a burst heal like 2h has with rally, maybe running dw would be better over 2h then, but the 2h passives are just so good aswell, the 30% stamregen for one is godsend when facing multiple oponents in pvp.

Vapirko wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

How about they bring DW & Bow first to the same power level 2H has?

You're distraught 2H has "only one useful skill", which is far from the reality considering that almost every single open world build runs crit rush (unless stamblade, in which case they might run ambush instead), rev slice/executioner & people like Kodi do very well with dizzying swing too.

The only skill of questionable viability in 2H skill line is Brawler, and I'm sure even that can be made work in specialized Master 2H builds.


Meanwhile, DW has purgable garbage ulti that has never seen use in PvP and the only skill really worth slotting is Blood Craze and maybe Blade Cloak. Rest is absolute trash and the passives are waaay worse than 2H.

Bow on the other hand lacks a ranged CC and almost never sees use on main bar.


Both of these weapons are in far worse shape than 2H and need to be addressed before any 2H buffs, most people are already pigeonholed into slotting 2H.

I’m seeing a lot of dw and Sb users over 2H right now. I don’t think more people use 2H because it’s necessarily better or stronger, I think people use 2H instead of dw because of the gap closer primarily. GMost stam classes are capable of very strong dot builds. And with a dw gap closer youd probably see 2H fade out pretty fast for the most part. SB is obviously weaker damage wise but packs in far more utility. Bow is very strong, or have you not been getting snipe spammed? You can’t put bow on the same level because then you have an insanely powerful ranged weapon with no drawbacks to using it.

I agree on that observation. Many DW builds shown up as of late. Most of my builds use 2h for the gap closer and Momentum only. With how bad the lag is most of the times I can't land most of the Dyzzing Swings. I think if 2h had an instant spam or if DS would be easier to use with with these bad servers people would go back to use 2h more often.

Also, Bow is already a strong backbar weapon. But Draining Shot neads a cc-immunity independent heal and Magnum Shot needs to have more range.

DDuke wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

How about they bring DW & Bow first to the same power level 2H has?

You're distraught 2H has "only one useful skill", which is far from the reality considering that almost every single open world build runs crit rush (unless stamblade, in which case they might run ambush instead), rev slice/executioner & people like Kodi do very well with dizzying swing too.

The only skill of questionable viability in 2H skill line is Brawler, and I'm sure even that can be made work in specialized Master 2H builds.


Meanwhile, DW has purgable garbage ulti that has never seen use in PvP and the only skill really worth slotting is Blood Craze and maybe Blade Cloak. Rest is absolute trash and the passives are waaay worse than 2H.

Bow on the other hand lacks a ranged CC and almost never sees use on main bar.


Both of these weapons are in far worse shape than 2H and need to be addressed before any 2H buffs, most people are already pigeonholed into slotting 2H.

I’m seeing a lot of dw and Sb users over 2H right now. I don’t think more people use 2H because it’s necessarily better or stronger, I think people use 2H instead of dw because of the gap closer primarily. GMost stam classes are capable of very strong dot builds. And with a dw gap closer youd probably see 2H fade out pretty fast for the most part. SB is obviously weaker damage wise but packs in far more utility. Bow is very strong, or have you not been getting snipe spammed? You can’t put bow on the same level because then you have an insanely powerful ranged weapon with no drawbacks to using it.

S&B, sure - DW? Only on magplars and people who die in <5s to undodgeable dmg because they either don't have Rally burst heal, or they don't have S&B mitigation.

Most stamblades in PvP have access to a gap closer (Ambush), yet if you go to Cyrodiil you'll notice they almost exclusively run 2H/Bow or 2H/S&B.

And lol @ "bow is strong because snipe spam". If you die to snipe spam, you've got bigger problems than failing at dizzying swing... snipe spammers are the easiest kills in PvP on any class/build.
That's your drawback for using an easily dodgeable/blockable/reflectable/shieldable/outhealable skill that slows you down while you cast it (incorrectly, because that's not how you utilize snipe if you want kills) and currently displays a big cast time icon whenever someone is trying to use it on you.

Okay, we’ll if you jsut want to get up in arms about it then be my guest but I’m not gonna feed into it. Snipe is an issue, everyone dies to snipe spam which is exploitable, it’s a real issue when outnumbered. Idk what to tell people who want bow to be buffed, if your playstyle is to sit out of range and hit people with arrows to win then we’re having a different conversation. I’ve seen some good players rock bow builds. It might not be easy or BiS but it’s definitely possible. I’m not talking about stamblades using dw, I’m talking about stam sorcs and stamplars.

Bow is good only if it's Master, and you open with PI, then go melee for the bulk of the damage. The weapon damage boost is noticeable. I don't think I even slot snipe, except maybe in defensive situations at a keep, and that's mostly for the defile from the respective morph, not for the damage. Snipe is quite bad since it's a channel, therefore leaves you exposed for a few seconds, and it's also easily dodged by a half competent player. Flame reach is not used for damage, but for the CC, especially by sorcerer who where left without after the frags nerf.

Asardes wrote: »

I've seen some magicka build for no-CP PvP using the 2H ultimate. I never believed they were effective until I saw the videos and got killed by someone using such a build in Sotha Sil. I do agree that the damage is a bit lackluster, but if you use it as execute and kill the player you get the whole cost refunded, and you gain potentially more from Battle Rush and Banish the Wicked (a substantial portion of PvP players are vampires). But the damage was heavily nerfed before release to live because people thought it would be too strong. The same people failed to notice how strong Eye would be, and if I'm not mistaken some even asked for the damage for the destro ultimate to be buffed. If you look at old topics asking for various nerfs and buffs you will quickly realize that most of the stuff that's bad in this game can be actually boiled down to users asking foolish changes and the devs mostly complying

EotS was initially very weak on PTS, that's why it was buffed, but not in the way people asked for. The players not being aware of how powerful it would be afterwards is an often parroted myth.

That would be nice if one morph of 2H ult would cancel enemy's shield ult and deal a "harness magcika" amount of dmg to dmg shields(it should not over dmg the shield, that would be OP). Counters prevent too popular cancer builds.

It is normal for 2H to be back bar. Wrecking is the only skilll good at frontbar. Others can stay at back bar for their best uses.

Vapirko wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

How about they bring DW & Bow first to the same power level 2H has?

You're distraught 2H has "only one useful skill", which is far from the reality considering that almost every single open world build runs crit rush (unless stamblade, in which case they might run ambush instead), rev slice/executioner & people like Kodi do very well with dizzying swing too.

The only skill of questionable viability in 2H skill line is Brawler, and I'm sure even that can be made work in specialized Master 2H builds.


Meanwhile, DW has purgable garbage ulti that has never seen use in PvP and the only skill really worth slotting is Blood Craze and maybe Blade Cloak. Rest is absolute trash and the passives are waaay worse than 2H.

Bow on the other hand lacks a ranged CC and almost never sees use on main bar.


Both of these weapons are in far worse shape than 2H and need to be addressed before any 2H buffs, most people are already pigeonholed into slotting 2H.

I’m seeing a lot of dw and Sb users over 2H right now. I don’t think more people use 2H because it’s necessarily better or stronger, I think people use 2H instead of dw because of the gap closer primarily. GMost stam classes are capable of very strong dot builds. And with a dw gap closer youd probably see 2H fade out pretty fast for the most part. SB is obviously weaker damage wise but packs in far more utility. Bow is very strong, or have you not been getting snipe spammed? You can’t put bow on the same level because then you have an insanely powerful ranged weapon with no drawbacks to using it.

S&B, sure - DW? Only on magplars and people who die in <5s to undodgeable dmg because they either don't have Rally burst heal, or they don't have S&B mitigation.

Most stamblades in PvP have access to a gap closer (Ambush), yet if you go to Cyrodiil you'll notice they almost exclusively run 2H/Bow or 2H/S&B.

And lol @ "bow is strong because snipe spam". If you die to snipe spam, you've got bigger problems than failing at dizzying swing... snipe spammers are the easiest kills in PvP on any class/build.
That's your drawback for using an easily dodgeable/blockable/reflectable/shieldable/outhealable skill that slows you down while you cast it (incorrectly, because that's not how you utilize snipe if you want kills) and currently displays a big cast time icon whenever someone is trying to use it on you.

Okay, we’ll if you jsut want to get up in arms about it then be my guest but I’m not gonna feed into it. Snipe is an issue, everyone dies to snipe spam which is exploitable, it’s a real issue when outnumbered. Idk what to tell people who want bow to be buffed, if your playstyle is to sit out of range and hit people with arrows to win then we’re having a different conversation. I’ve seen some good players rock bow builds. It might not be easy or BiS but it’s definitely possible. I’m not talking about stamblades using dw, I’m talking about stam sorcs and stamplars.

L2 LOS

2h is fine imo, it has its strengths/weaknesses and isn't the worse off weapon skill line by a long shot

Minno wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

IMO the biggest negative about bow is that the natural weapon dmg is 5-600 less then say 2h. Would be fun if dw got a burst heal like 2h has with rally, maybe running dw would be better over 2h then, but the 2h passives are just so good aswell, the 30% stamregen for one is godsend when facing multiple oponents in pvp.

Bow is plagued by being a stamina weapon with access to higher weapon DMG sets and is a ranged weapon.

Reason destro has less SD than running swords is because you get 8% extra DMG, major spell penetration, status effect debuffs, and a host of unique spells (AOE, instant cast spamable, minor mangle PAOE, consistent ultimate DMG, etc).

I agree, bow should have a 28 meter ranged cc ability. But it shouldn't have it's weapon DMG increased. It does get a ranged execute, a way to get major expedition, higher heavy attack DMG scaling and a immobilze CC all of which destro doesn't have (unless you take less damage running ice staff for the immobilze/fire staff for the heavy attack DMG).

It could get increased status effects to poison/diseased, which would indirectly boost it's DMG potential (poison for pve dots, and disease for pvp minor defile).

Tbh, the lesser weapon damage is much bigger deal on bow than on staves. Magicka gets better access to max magicka bonuses, its major defense ( shields) scales with that exclusively. And the damage output of such magicka builds (pve and pvp) is balanced around output of meta stamina builds (hence the never ending cycle where one side is on top till they change something again). Those meta builds are exclusively DW and 2H builds on front bar and front bar has usually all the spammable/instant skills and also decides stats like weapon damage for most backbar abilities. In PVE meta, only rearming trap (and only the first of 2 I assume) is getting damage from back bar, everything else scales with front bar damage (once you switch to it). Those weapons have more damage. Every stamina medium build is getting this bonus increased by Agility passive (which is %), Major/Minor Brutality, Fighters Guild passives, Sorc Passives and some buff it directly with Nirnhoned trait.

So some DW build with one Nirnhoned, Minor/Major Brutality, Flawless Dawnbreaker and Agility (pretty close to normal PVE setup) is having 2658 weapon damage out of that. While Bow has only 2225. Which may not look like, but is damn huge difference. Thats full 5piece bonus of lost damage. Even if bow had absolutely no other disadvantage in the game (and there are plenty) this alone would make it unpopular choice. No DW build would ever wear set with 5pc of "Allow fighting from range" and while some ranged dizzy swing would look funny to people on 2H in PVP, no meta build would ever use this set there either.