Elemental Rage - y tho?

jrgray93 · January 2018

First of all, this is not a thread about the balance of this spell in PvP. This isn't even about the self-target morph. Save that for other discussions, please.

So anyway, I'm wondering what the point of an inferno staff is with the Elemental Rage morph. This is the morph that stays as a placed AoE but gains a bonus based on your staff type. A lightning staff is FAR superior. A lightning staff will tick ten times (initial + 9s) and an inferno will tick eight times. That gives lightning a 25% increase to total damage output, whereas the inferno staff does 10% more.

Adding to that, a lightning staff gets a passive AoE bonus, bringing the bonus to +35% from base.

If you had the inferno staff on the back bar and swapped to get the AoE bonus from a front lightning staff, you'd get a total of 18.8% more damage. But realistically, most people won't be using dual inferno, and you're generally looking at 135% base damage for lightning vs 110% for inferno.

Having tested this on a dummy, my inferno staff destro ult did 13,967 crits while swapped to a lightning staff for the AoE bonus, while the lightning staff alone did 15,085 ticks. That doesn't quite match up with my math, but I'm sure the calculations are just done differently, or maybe something else is at play that I didn't account for. The point is that in practice, the lightning ult had a potential to do 150,850 total damage, while the inferno had potential to do 111,736. That's a huge difference. The inferno staff doesn't even have a burst advantage.

The inferno staff elemental bonus for this spell needs a major buff to be brought in line with the lightning variant. Again, this has nothing to do with the commonly-used PvP morph.

Lexxypwns · January 2018

It also applies the associated elemental effect every tick. This means lightning receives 8% bonus from concussion as well

getemshauna · January 2018

Lightning abilities in this game always crit less than your average crit is, also fiery rage is boosted by engulfing flames (10%), also procs burning status effect, what us very valuable in shock enchant meta, also it's burst damage rather than dps what lightning ulty is, what can be needed in few situations (bursting bossess on vma, or procing BSW). Anyway, that's true lightning ulty is superior in terms of dps but both of them have their use in game.
And ye, in cyro vampires don't really like fire one.

Ankael07 · January 2018

Vampires in Cyrodiil and undead all around Tamriel give an edge to fire staff. Also it doesnt apply the associated elemental effect as the idea was scratched during the PTS before the ulti came out. What little chance of applying the status effect ( 2% each tick?) doesnt really matter since its so low.

Judas Helviaryn · January 2018

gethemshauna wrote: »

Lightning abilities in this game always crit less than your average crit is...

I'm sorry, what? Where did this assertion come from? Having a magsorc main, I haven't ever had this pointed out before, nor has it ever become apparent.

Are you taking racial and class passives into account here?

AngelFires333 · January 2018

I would also Love to know if this out performs Shooting star if I have Clutch for the passive please?
Shooting star looks so damn cool yo.
I have not actually used Destro staff ult yet.
But Alcast said it sounded like popcorn.

jrgray93 · January 2018

gethemshauna wrote: »

Lightning abilities in this game always crit less than your average crit is, also fiery rage is boosted by engulfing flames (10%), also procs burning status effect, what us very valuable in shock enchant meta, also it's burst damage rather than dps what lightning ulty is, what can be needed in few situations (bursting bossess on vma, or procing BSW). Anyway, that's true lightning ulty is superior in terms of dps but both of them have their use in game.
And ye, in cyro vampires don't really like fire one.

wut

I posted the numbers it did. The lightning staff is far better burst and sustained. That was the entire point of my post.

Leingod · January 2018

Elephant in the room - Ancient Knowledge is a bandaid

& Penetrating Magic should apply to all magic skills

WrathOfInnos · January 2018

As someone already pointed out, fire is much better against vampires in PVP. However, the morph in discussion is the less peeferred in pvp.

I'll add that a Dragonknight using engulfing flames also increases fire damage for the entire group (mostly useful in PVE). This brings the fire version to 120% of base damage, compared to 125% for lightning. If you are Dunmer (7% fire damage and 2% lightning) then both element types end up with 127%.

I'm leaving the 8% passive from staff type out of the above numbers because I don't think it is particularly relevant. The staff element should be chosen based on what contributes more than 50% of your DPS, single target or AoE. For example, nightblades have mostly single target skills and benefit more from inferno. Sorcs, on the other hand, use almost all AoE so they would stick with lightning staff even if the inferno had a better ultimate.

I'm also leaving out the mention of concussion adding 8% because elemental rage has a low chance of causing concussion. Each of the ticks has a 1% chance, so total ~11% over the duration. With Destro passives this becomes ~20% chance for causing concussion and vulnerability. Maybe we could be generous and call this a 2% damage increase on average, but you are losing out on the burning status effect.

The burst of inferno is also something to consider. In fights where the boss moves (Rakkhat) or shields (St. Olms), it is much easier to get 7s of duration than 9s of duration on target.

I could see a buff from 10% extra damage from inferno elemental rage go up to 15% maybe (then both would be equivalent for most races), but anything more and lightning would fall behind.

Malmai · January 2018

Hmm they will prob nerf lightning staff now...

Vaoh · January 2018

Flame Staff = more damage per tick

Also Flame Damage gets a 10% buff from a DKs Engulfing Flames. More damage as a Dunmer. Even more if you’re the DK. Also you deal far more damage to Vampires.

Lightning Staff does more raw damage but it can be more difficult to have all of your ticks hit, and each tick isn’t as deadly.

Overall, Lightning Ele Rage tends to only really be better on a Sorc (who slots a Backbar Lightning Staff with Ele Rage and Frontbar Flame/Lightning Staff with Meteor ult) in PvE, whereas Flame Ele Rage is more powerful in PvP and for all of your Dunmer Mag NBs who are amazing in PvE atm.

getemshauna · January 2018

Judas Helviaryn wrote: »

gethemshauna wrote: »

Lightning abilities in this game always crit less than your average crit is...

I'm sorry, what? Where did this assertion come from? Having a magsorc main, I haven't ever had this pointed out before, nor has it ever become apparent.

Are you taking racial and class passives into account here?

Maybe I went too far with my statement "lightning abilities crit less" but there's something I wan't to add.
In the past, In homestead during the Thief Mundus meta, I was using Lightning Clench to push my dmg from Illambris. In multiple parses my average of klench was 40-50% critical, when others abilities were showing me 65-75% crit ratio.

Also, I did few tests Lightning Reach vs Flame reach, and dot damage of Lightning Reach was always below average (49.6%)

https://imgur.com/a/6Bpim
https://imgur.com/a/Dz54r
https://imgur.com/a/J3fqR

But it was only 3 tests, RNG could decide about this. That's just my own observation.

E: That's just my feeling

Being honest, when destro ults were released I was surprised aswell that 2 additional ticks are actually superior vs % damage in 7 base ticks. I was almost sure that there is a trick inside of it, that's why my ults were critting so rarely LOL

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · January 2018

gethemshauna wrote: »

Judas Helviaryn wrote: »

gethemshauna wrote: »

Lightning abilities in this game always crit less than your average crit is...

I'm sorry, what? Where did this assertion come from? Having a magsorc main, I haven't ever had this pointed out before, nor has it ever become apparent.

Are you taking racial and class passives into account here?

Maybe I went too far with my statement "lightning abilities crit less" but there's something I wan't to add.
In the past, In homestead during the Thief Mundus meta, I was using Lightning Clench to push my dmg from Illambris. In multiple parses my average of klench was 40-50% critical, when others abilities were showing me 65-75% crit ratio.

Also, I did few tests Lightning Reach vs Flame reach, and dot damage of Lightning Reach was always below average (49.6%)
https://imgur.com/a/6Bpim
https://imgur.com/a/Dz54r
https://imgur.com/a/J3fqR
But it was only 3 tests, RNG could decide about this. That's just my own observation.

your first test is only 380k and the other 2 are only 600k, that is not even close to be enough to state that lightning crits less then the other, not sure how you think otherwise.