Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

( insert ability name ) isn't OP when a zerg uses it, it's just broken.

Shall we try the template together?

Warden birds isn't OP when a zerg uses it, it's just broken.

DK talons isn't OP when a zerg uses it, it's just broken.

Mages fury isn't OP when a zerg uses it, it's just broken.

Soul assault isn't OP when a zerg uses it, it's just broken.

Radiant destruction isn't OP when a zerg uses it, it's just broken.


Rest assured, this template can give you hundreds of new threads and keep forum goers busy a while! Just don't shatter the illusion and mention that-

Outnumbered pvp is your gripe.

Seems like one of those skills got nerfed because it's OP in an Xv1 situation. I wonder which one that was.

you can't balance a MMO game based on 1v1s. Radiant nerf was well deserved. People were using it as a SPAMMABLE, a spammable that also executed people. Literally there were 10-15 templars spamming nothing but radiant in cyrodiil. It was broken.

No argument there. I completely agree. Just pointing out that one of his examples was nerfed.

@IAVITNI

You guys make it sound like Miats is a PC feature. You know not everyone uses it right. I, and plenty of others, have never used Miats and I have never had a problem with snipe.

Maybe not enough players pay attention to sound effects.

I do [snip] hate Miats though and the distinct abundance of perfectly timed roll dodging that comes with it.

[Edited to remove profanity masking]

Biro123 wrote: »

I'd be happy if it changed to an instant spammable, with lower damage obviously. I'd love to be able to make a mobile bow build that can do damage while kiting... apply dots, keep pressure up, but you need to move to melee for the burst.

I find that Poison Injection works very well to apply DOTs and keep the pressure on.

Haquor wrote: »

@IAVITNI

You guys make it sound like Miats is a PC feature. You know not everyone uses it right. I, and plenty of others, have never used Miats and I have never had a problem with snipe.

Maybe not enough players pay attention to sound effects.

I do [snip] hate Miats though and the distinct abundance of perfectly timed roll dodging that comes with it.

The existence of MIATs is enough of a deterrence for majority of players to run a snipe build.

PC and Console PvP are noticeably different due to the way the game is played. For instance, I won't play my medium nb running Senche during prime time because my character often gets stuck in block while trying to roll dodge. Not sure if it's the same on PC, but rooting someone prevents them from targeting properly if you kite behind them. I've seen people say that you just have to target a player but I've been in duels where being rooted prevents me from targeting my opponent even with a fire staff.

Now I'm all for buffing bow builds as a whole. However, the way that snipe currently functions promotes unhealthy gameplay. If I lose a duel or 1vx to players that may not know what they're doing but simply punished my mistakes I take the L and learn from it. But I've been in countless situations where I clearly have the upper hand only to see my characters resources drain completely and than die 5-10 seconds later. There's no "oh I got outplayed" or "I made a mistake". It's literally just 1 person pressing 1 button from afar.

Hell, I've even fought a DK and NB duo that worked to set up snipes. That I actually respected and enjoyed fighting. But majority of snipe builds allow players to secure kills with 0 effort and 0 coordination

@DDuke idk how to do spoilers so just going to @ you

Your right that the damage is lower, but it's not the damage itself that I was referring to. It's the ease of setting up the damage. There are plenty of other combos that can create similar or greater burst than snipe but they require some thought and mechanical skills to pull off and/or have viable counters. The Acid Spray example you presented has counterplay. I see the Spray and I know the opponent is trying to line up their burst. Same as a Frag Sorc or a Stam Warden. There's tells. (And on the topic of the overload gank build, it is something that should be nerfed as it also has 0 counterplay, and I main sorc)

Consider Magicka Sorcs in PvE.Most of the PvE players I know would say that a Magicka NB could pull of more DPS than a mag sorc, even before necro was nerfed. It was just the ease of the mag sorc rotation that made it so popular and people called for nerfs. The same will happen to snipe once people start hopping on the snipe train in PC.

And this isn't fabrication. it's been happening on console because 1. No MIATs and 2. Lag is much worse and make it more likely that multiple snipes register simultaneously. I have a clip of my stamden in PvP where I'm able to run into a zerg and react in time etc etc only to die away from that zerg to 2 snipes that registered at the same time the snipe audio played. The number of snipe builds since homestead has increased greatly. The skies of Tamriel are turning green on console.

Again, I get that this isn't necessarily a snipe issue, but it is how snipe is performing on console, intended or not.

At the very least Major Defile should not be applied from a skill that can be spammed at range and hit like a truck and stun since it's most likely coming from stealth. If it performed like Reverb Bash (in effectiveness not functionality) than I'd have no qualms.

I saw someone post that Snipe could be turned into the ultimate and the bow ultimate could be turned into a channeled spammable. Like a ranged jabs. I'd have fun fighting a Ranger that had a 70 ultimate ranged Incap. What's not fun is dying to 0 skill required 10-14k burst

[Edited for quote]

IAVITNI wrote: »

Haquor wrote: »

@IAVITNI

You guys make it sound like Miats is a PC feature. You know not everyone uses it right. I, and plenty of others, have never used Miats and I have never had a problem with snipe.

Maybe not enough players pay attention to sound effects.

I do [snip] hate Miats though and the distinct abundance of perfectly timed roll dodging that comes with it.

The existence of MIATs is enough of a deterrence for majority of players to run a snipe build.

PC and Console PvP are noticeably different due to the way the game is played. For instance, I won't play my medium nb running Senche during prime time because my character often gets stuck in block while trying to roll dodge. Not sure if it's the same on PC, but rooting someone prevents them from targeting properly if you kite behind them. I've seen people say that you just have to target a player but I've been in duels where being rooted prevents me from targeting my opponent even with a fire staff.

Now I'm all for buffing bow builds as a whole. However, the way that snipe currently functions promotes unhealthy gameplay. If I lose a duel or 1vx to players that may not know what they're doing but simply punished my mistakes I take the L and learn from it. But I've been in countless situations where I clearly have the upper hand only to see my characters resources drain completely and than die 5-10 seconds later. There's no "oh I got outplayed" or "I made a mistake". It's literally just 1 person pressing 1 button from afar.

Hell, I've even fought a DK and NB duo that worked to set up snipes. That I actually respected and enjoyed fighting. But majority of snipe builds allow players to secure kills with 0 effort and 0 coordination

@DDuke idk how to do spoilers so just going to @ you

Your right that the damage is lower, but it's not the damage itself that I was referring to. It's the ease of setting up the damage. There are plenty of other combos that can create similar or greater burst than snipe but they require some thought and mechanical skills to pull off and/or have viable counters. The Acid Spray example you presented has counterplay. I see the Spray and I know the opponent is trying to line up their burst. Same as a Frag Sorc or a Stam Warden. There's tells. (And on the topic of the overload gank build, it is something that should be nerfed as it also has 0 counterplay, and I main sorc)

Consider Magicka Sorcs in PvE.Most of the PvE players I know would say that a Magicka NB could pull of more DPS than a mag sorc, even before necro was nerfed. It was just the ease of the mag sorc rotation that made it so popular and people called for nerfs. The same will happen to snipe once people start hopping on the snipe train in PC.

And this isn't fabrication. it's been happening on console because 1. No MIATs and 2. Lag is much worse and make it more likely that multiple snipes register simultaneously. I have a clip of my stamden in PvP where I'm able to run into a zerg and react in time etc etc only to die away from that zerg to 2 snipes that registered at the same time the snipe audio played. The number of snipe builds since homestead has increased greatly. The skies of Tamriel are turning green on console.

Again, I get that this isn't necessarily a snipe issue, but it is how snipe is performing on console, intended or not.

At the very least Major Defile should not be applied from a skill that can be spammed at range and hit like a truck and stun since it's most likely coming from stealth. If it performed like Reverb Bash (in effectiveness not functionality) than I'd have no qualms.

I saw someone post that Snipe could be turned into the ultimate and the bow ultimate could be turned into a channeled spammable. Like a ranged jabs. I'd have fun fighting a Ranger that had a 70 ultimate ranged Incap. What's not fun is dying to 0 skill required 10-14k burst

I fully back you on swapping snipe and rapid fire
have snipe and its morphs be an ulti, maybe buff focused aim while you are at it and have ballista be another effect and toxic barrage be useful under that context. Also shorten the channel time on rapid fire...

[Edited for quote]

Witar wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

How about this comparison. Viper+velidreth (pre crit nerf) was nerfed because it was unhealthy gameplay, allowing players to 1 shot opponents simply by hitting a single gap closer such as ambush. Snipe allows players to do the same thing. Sure maybe they have to press the button twice, but, and correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think double tapping a button while walking forward can be called skilled or healthy gameplay.

Justify Viper+velidreth critable gank builds than I'll reconsider my stance on snipe.

Snipe->snipe (bad combo btw) is nowhere near the pre-nerf Viper+Selene* builds.

I also tested snipe->snipe while moving towards the target with Major Expedition up, there's a 1s interval between when those two snipes land (unless target uses gap closer on you right before the first snipe lands). It is not possible to land them at the same time, and health desync is not "landing projectiles at the same time".


But because I love calculating stuff, here's Snipe->Snipe with a proper Lethal Arrow tooltip (on a stamblade mind you, you can get a much higher Focused Aim tooltip on stam sorc):
Gear: 5x Marksman 5x Hawkeye x1 Kena (highest dmg you can get with the "classic snipe build")
Buffs: Empower (first Lethal Arrow only), Master Assassin passive (first Lethal Arrow only), Major Brutality, Minor Berserk, Marksman 8% factored in to the tooltip & 82% crit modifier applied to first Snipe.

43 491 (1st)
19 657 (2nd)
=
63 148
-Battle Spirit
31 574 damage


And here's a pre-nerf procblade:
Gear: 5x Viper 5x Poisonous Serpent 2x Selene
Buffs: Empower (first Bow Heavy Attack only), Master Assassin passive (first Bow Heavy Attack only), Major Brutality, Minor Berserk, 82% crit modifier applied to first Bow Heavy Attack*.

23 634 (Bow Heavy)
10 055(Ambush)
10 432 (Viper)[Buffed by Empower from Ambush]
3666 (DW Light)
9724 (Poisonous Serpent)
13 023 (Surprise Attack)/20 498 (Incap)
17 160 (Selene)/20 592 (if buffed by Incap)
=
87 694/98 601
-Battle Spirit
43 847/49 300 instant damage


Oh, and here's Asylum Bow burst (a bow build that actually does land its burst at the same time):
Gear: 5x Marksman 5x Morag x1 Asylum
Buffs: Master Assassin passive (first Acid Spray only), Major Brutality, Minor Berserk, Marksman 8% factored in to the tooltip, as well as +5% from Hawk Eye (LA before Lethal Arrow lands) to Lethal Arrow & 82% crit modifier applied to first Acid Spray & +60% applied to the Lethal Arrow (Morag+Asylum)

15 162 (Acid Spray)
4395 (Light Attack)
30 430 (Lethal Arrow)
=
49 987
-Battle Spirit
24 993 instant damage (37 469 if the Lethal crits)


Ok, one more. How about a magicka gank build on Live? Here's an Overload gank one:
Gear: 5x Spinners 5x Elegant 2x Slimecraw
Buffs: Major Empower (first Overload LA only), Minor Berserk, Major Sorcery

35 065 (1st Overload)
18 913 (Crystal Blast)
29 221 (2nd Overload)
=
83 100
-Battle Spirit
41 599 instant damage (no crits)

...

There'll also be a particularly nasty magblade gank build next patch, but I'm not going to talk about that (would like to play it a little atleast before it gets nerfed )


Perhaps in the grand scheme of things, snipe is highly overrated by the people who find its damage too strong.



*Worth noting: bow heavy attacks were significantly nerfed (by 30% if I recall correctly) in the same patch that nerfed proc sets.
**Disclaimer: all numbers are based on an opponent with 0 mitigation, 0 defensive CPs & 0 defensive buffs of any kind.
***Disclaimer 2: bow burst can get a lot better, but this requires landing multiple light attacks on target beforehand for Hawk Eye stacks, which is not possible for a gank build, or for someone spamming snipe behind a zerg 40 meters away.

Overload build requires ult while snipe build doesn't. It does makes it more reliable while providing less damage.
Killing all guards at lumbers to gain ulti can be rather boring)

True. Plus you can weave with Snipe and you can't with Overload.

I think some players should learn to play, not cheat with addons,

Then again some players just have to rely on these things to get results, i remember my times at good old Unreal GOTY when it was aimbot and sniper rifle for those who could not cope on their own.