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· [COMPLETE] NA megaservers for maintenance – February 23, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EST (17:00 UTC)
· [COMPLETE] EU megaservers for maintenance – February 23, 9:00 UTC (4:00AM EST) - 17:00 UTC (12:00PM EST)
· [COMPLETE] ESO Store and Account System for maintenance – February 23, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EST (17:00 UTC)
Quarterly updates are too frequent if most bugs and known issues arenn't resolved prior to a new PTS
-
Ydrisselle✭✭✭✭✭Apache_Kid wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »rhapsodious wrote: »I think almost of the base would prefer quality over quantity, but their investors and stakeholders think differently. They want new content that makes money so that they're convinced to continue giving Zenimax their money. Bug fixes and the like are definitely important, but they just don't have as high of an ROI as stuff that actually gets added to the game. Players aren't going to flock to an update where the main advertising point is "we fixed a lot of bugs", since 90% of the game works fine or well enough (Yes, you can argue that part of that 10% is fundamentally broken. But the point remains that the game as a whole mostly works).
Stuff like lorebooks not showing up in Eidetic Memory or NPC speaking animations being wonky is annoying, yes, but it's not important in the long run, so it waits until a major patch, whereas stuff like main zone quests that are bugged in a manner that prevents completion are pushed up the priority pipeline and usually get faster fixes in an incremental.
I think it's a combination of not having the resources/Zenimax Media focusing more on content delivery than improving on what's already there. It's not a terrible decision from a business perspective, but it's definitely discouraging for players if they feel like their concerns are ignored. And sure, some of the issues addressed time and again have been in need of love for a long amount of time, please don't think I'm blindly defending all of their decisions. However I think the vast majority of their developers want to fix the bugs as much as we want them to be fixed. It's just not a productive use of time to get the art team to try to fix the lag in Cyrodiil. :P
I have to agree with this. In almost all MMO’s “Content is King”. Many gamers have the attention span of two or three months at most, and if you don’t keep them entertained, they will just go to another game that does. That’s one of the reasons ZOS throws in a special event once in awhile between updates, to keep us busy. Sure, I would like to see ZOS spend more time on bugs and QOL stuff we have been begging for (Guild structure, housing, UI improvements, the list goes on......), but they have to keep their shareholders happy with new players as well as keeping some of the old. Although I would have to say they haven’t done a stellar job of the latter considering some of the unwanted balance changes they have made recently.
Don't forget one little thing: if an MMO doesn't have new content, it's dead. One or two updates in a year definitely means "this game is starting to die, we don't even make anything for the players since there are almost none". Just look at the MMOs in maintenance mode...
While the fixes for bugs are important, it has to be done in balance with the new content. Different people are working on different aspects of an MMO, but the same people are fixing bugs in a particular system that are working on new things. Like the team which is making the new dungeons' mobs and bosses are responsible for the bugfixing of the existing dungeons' population too. Bugs are annoying, I agree with that - however fixing bugs and sacrificing new shinies for that is generally a bad idea. (yes, it's the same bad idea if a team is just pushing new shinies out and doeesn't bother to fix the old ones' problems)
There are so many difficult acheivments every time they release new dungeons and trials that I'm still working on ones from a year ago. They just keep releasing more and myself and other players will never be able to catch up with the difficulty level of some of the acheivments. There's enough content at this point to take a break to fix bugs and issues
Maybe that's enough for you and your friends. But it's absolutely not guaranteed that it's enough for the majority of the playerbase. I'm quite sure there are many players who will never try to get the hardest achievements for different reasons, and they need something to do too.0 -
MasterSpatula✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Most of the worst bugs don't present themselves until the game gets pushed to live. There's simply no test that can simulate the demands of the entire community playing the content.
And man, if you think they can't keep up with quarterly updates, you would really have hated it at launch. Updates every six weeks, and not one of them in the first year was really even close to ready."A probable impossibility is preferable to an improbable possibility." - Aristotle0 -
Ydrisselle✭✭✭✭✭NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »rhapsodious wrote: »I think almost of the base would prefer quality over quantity, but their investors and stakeholders think differently. They want new content that makes money so that they're convinced to continue giving Zenimax their money. Bug fixes and the like are definitely important, but they just don't have as high of an ROI as stuff that actually gets added to the game. Players aren't going to flock to an update where the main advertising point is "we fixed a lot of bugs", since 90% of the game works fine or well enough (Yes, you can argue that part of that 10% is fundamentally broken. But the point remains that the game as a whole mostly works).
Stuff like lorebooks not showing up in Eidetic Memory or NPC speaking animations being wonky is annoying, yes, but it's not important in the long run, so it waits until a major patch, whereas stuff like main zone quests that are bugged in a manner that prevents completion are pushed up the priority pipeline and usually get faster fixes in an incremental.
I think it's a combination of not having the resources/Zenimax Media focusing more on content delivery than improving on what's already there. It's not a terrible decision from a business perspective, but it's definitely discouraging for players if they feel like their concerns are ignored. And sure, some of the issues addressed time and again have been in need of love for a long amount of time, please don't think I'm blindly defending all of their decisions. However I think the vast majority of their developers want to fix the bugs as much as we want them to be fixed. It's just not a productive use of time to get the art team to try to fix the lag in Cyrodiil. :P
I have to agree with this. In almost all MMO’s “Content is King”. Many gamers have the attention span of two or three months at most, and if you don’t keep them entertained, they will just go to another game that does. That’s one of the reasons ZOS throws in a special event once in awhile between updates, to keep us busy. Sure, I would like to see ZOS spend more time on bugs and QOL stuff we have been begging for (Guild structure, housing, UI improvements, the list goes on......), but they have to keep their shareholders happy with new players as well as keeping some of the old. Although I would have to say they haven’t done a stellar job of the latter considering some of the unwanted balance changes they have made recently.
Don't forget one little thing: if an MMO doesn't have new content, it's dead. One or two updates in a year definitely means "this game is starting to die, we don't even make anything for the players since there are almost none". Just look at the MMOs in maintenance mode...
While the fixes for bugs are important, it has to be done in balance with the new content. Different people are working on different aspects of an MMO, but the same people are fixing bugs in a particular system that are working on new things. Like the team which is making the new dungeons' mobs and bosses are responsible for the bugfixing of the existing dungeons' population too. Bugs are annoying, I agree with that - however fixing bugs and sacrificing new shinies for that is generally a bad idea. (yes, it's the same bad idea if a team is just pushing new shinies out and doeesn't bother to fix the old ones' problems)
Everyone keeps saying this....and I did as well but lets look at the team.
Is it not the same folks (leaders at least), I believe it is.
They dont' have a Dungeon bug team lead, a combat bug team lead, a artwork bug team lead that differs from the new content team leads. If the process is to send the bugs created by one team to another who didn't work on the issues caused in the first place....then that's a BIG issue.
The bug folks should be on the same team, not seperate thus the poll question...quality over quantity
I'm sure the bugfixing people are the same who make the new content. There should be a Q&A tester team, but they won't fix bugs, they are reporting them. I'm sure we can agree that if a developer is working on bugs, s/he won't have any time to make new content, and vice versa. The work have to be balanced between the two tasks. What I meant was "the devs who are making the new bosses can't fix animation bugs, and the people whose job is making new costumes won't fix a broken stealth mechanic".Edited by Ydrisselle on January 12, 2018 7:34PM1 -
Moloch1514✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes I'd rather have quality over quantitySeems to me that if you don't end-game, then you most likely don't know or need to care about those bugs. Unless I am raiding, I usually take off all armor and weapons and run around overland content with fists as my weapon. That is still not enough to make overland PvE content challenging for someone at max CP.
So if overland content is the bulk of my exposure to combat, then sure, I dont care that Healing Ward has been broken for months and that Magplars scaling is broken.PC-NA1 -
Apache_Kid✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Yes I'd rather have quality over quantityYdrisselle wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »rhapsodious wrote: »I think almost of the base would prefer quality over quantity, but their investors and stakeholders think differently. They want new content that makes money so that they're convinced to continue giving Zenimax their money. Bug fixes and the like are definitely important, but they just don't have as high of an ROI as stuff that actually gets added to the game. Players aren't going to flock to an update where the main advertising point is "we fixed a lot of bugs", since 90% of the game works fine or well enough (Yes, you can argue that part of that 10% is fundamentally broken. But the point remains that the game as a whole mostly works).
Stuff like lorebooks not showing up in Eidetic Memory or NPC speaking animations being wonky is annoying, yes, but it's not important in the long run, so it waits until a major patch, whereas stuff like main zone quests that are bugged in a manner that prevents completion are pushed up the priority pipeline and usually get faster fixes in an incremental.
I think it's a combination of not having the resources/Zenimax Media focusing more on content delivery than improving on what's already there. It's not a terrible decision from a business perspective, but it's definitely discouraging for players if they feel like their concerns are ignored. And sure, some of the issues addressed time and again have been in need of love for a long amount of time, please don't think I'm blindly defending all of their decisions. However I think the vast majority of their developers want to fix the bugs as much as we want them to be fixed. It's just not a productive use of time to get the art team to try to fix the lag in Cyrodiil. :P
I have to agree with this. In almost all MMO’s “Content is King”. Many gamers have the attention span of two or three months at most, and if you don’t keep them entertained, they will just go to another game that does. That’s one of the reasons ZOS throws in a special event once in awhile between updates, to keep us busy. Sure, I would like to see ZOS spend more time on bugs and QOL stuff we have been begging for (Guild structure, housing, UI improvements, the list goes on......), but they have to keep their shareholders happy with new players as well as keeping some of the old. Although I would have to say they haven’t done a stellar job of the latter considering some of the unwanted balance changes they have made recently.
Don't forget one little thing: if an MMO doesn't have new content, it's dead. One or two updates in a year definitely means "this game is starting to die, we don't even make anything for the players since there are almost none". Just look at the MMOs in maintenance mode...
While the fixes for bugs are important, it has to be done in balance with the new content. Different people are working on different aspects of an MMO, but the same people are fixing bugs in a particular system that are working on new things. Like the team which is making the new dungeons' mobs and bosses are responsible for the bugfixing of the existing dungeons' population too. Bugs are annoying, I agree with that - however fixing bugs and sacrificing new shinies for that is generally a bad idea. (yes, it's the same bad idea if a team is just pushing new shinies out and doeesn't bother to fix the old ones' problems)
There are so many difficult acheivments every time they release new dungeons and trials that I'm still working on ones from a year ago. They just keep releasing more and myself and other players will never be able to catch up with the difficulty level of some of the acheivments. There's enough content at this point to take a break to fix bugs and issues
Maybe that's enough for you and your friends. But it's absolutely not guaranteed that it's enough for the majority of the playerbase. I'm quite sure there are many players who will never try to get the hardest achievements for different reasons, and they need something to do too.
Well if they aren't going for the acheivments then two new dungeons will provide a couple hours max of play-time so what's the point even? I'm not sure I follow your argument.1 -
NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yes I'd rather have quality over quantityMoloch1514 wrote: »Seems to me that if you don't end-game, then you most likely don't know or need to care about those bugs. Unless I am raiding, I usually take off all armor and weapons and run around overland content with fists as my weapon. That is still not enough to make overland PvE content challenging for someone at max CP.
So if overland content is the bulk of my exposure to combat, then sure, I dont care that Healing Ward has been broken for months and that Magplars scaling is broken.
There is actually quite a bit of broken things which do largely impact players outside of endgame.
To your example, just doing Dungeons or world bosses regular or vet brings about issues.
Then...the other side is the dungeon tool itself. I mean I think if each of us tried to avoid the known bugs...ok I know for 99% certainty if each of us set out to play and avoid all known bugs we would run into a bug.
Its been my recent experience in rolling a fresh new character just to slowly play content as a Warden.
This happens whether its DLC zones or vanilla solo-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5010 -
Ydrisselle✭✭✭✭✭Apache_Kid wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »rhapsodious wrote: »I think almost of the base would prefer quality over quantity, but their investors and stakeholders think differently. They want new content that makes money so that they're convinced to continue giving Zenimax their money. Bug fixes and the like are definitely important, but they just don't have as high of an ROI as stuff that actually gets added to the game. Players aren't going to flock to an update where the main advertising point is "we fixed a lot of bugs", since 90% of the game works fine or well enough (Yes, you can argue that part of that 10% is fundamentally broken. But the point remains that the game as a whole mostly works).
Stuff like lorebooks not showing up in Eidetic Memory or NPC speaking animations being wonky is annoying, yes, but it's not important in the long run, so it waits until a major patch, whereas stuff like main zone quests that are bugged in a manner that prevents completion are pushed up the priority pipeline and usually get faster fixes in an incremental.
I think it's a combination of not having the resources/Zenimax Media focusing more on content delivery than improving on what's already there. It's not a terrible decision from a business perspective, but it's definitely discouraging for players if they feel like their concerns are ignored. And sure, some of the issues addressed time and again have been in need of love for a long amount of time, please don't think I'm blindly defending all of their decisions. However I think the vast majority of their developers want to fix the bugs as much as we want them to be fixed. It's just not a productive use of time to get the art team to try to fix the lag in Cyrodiil. :P
I have to agree with this. In almost all MMO’s “Content is King”. Many gamers have the attention span of two or three months at most, and if you don’t keep them entertained, they will just go to another game that does. That’s one of the reasons ZOS throws in a special event once in awhile between updates, to keep us busy. Sure, I would like to see ZOS spend more time on bugs and QOL stuff we have been begging for (Guild structure, housing, UI improvements, the list goes on......), but they have to keep their shareholders happy with new players as well as keeping some of the old. Although I would have to say they haven’t done a stellar job of the latter considering some of the unwanted balance changes they have made recently.
Don't forget one little thing: if an MMO doesn't have new content, it's dead. One or two updates in a year definitely means "this game is starting to die, we don't even make anything for the players since there are almost none". Just look at the MMOs in maintenance mode...
While the fixes for bugs are important, it has to be done in balance with the new content. Different people are working on different aspects of an MMO, but the same people are fixing bugs in a particular system that are working on new things. Like the team which is making the new dungeons' mobs and bosses are responsible for the bugfixing of the existing dungeons' population too. Bugs are annoying, I agree with that - however fixing bugs and sacrificing new shinies for that is generally a bad idea. (yes, it's the same bad idea if a team is just pushing new shinies out and doeesn't bother to fix the old ones' problems)
There are so many difficult acheivments every time they release new dungeons and trials that I'm still working on ones from a year ago. They just keep releasing more and myself and other players will never be able to catch up with the difficulty level of some of the acheivments. There's enough content at this point to take a break to fix bugs and issues
Maybe that's enough for you and your friends. But it's absolutely not guaranteed that it's enough for the majority of the playerbase. I'm quite sure there are many players who will never try to get the hardest achievements for different reasons, and they need something to do too.
Well if they aren't going for the acheivments then two new dungeons will provide a couple hours max of play-time so what's the point even? I'm not sure I follow your argument.
They have the new levelling rewards: crown crates, costumes, housing coffer. They have a new home in Coldharbour. They have the outfits, and the housing storage. That's content too, and more than a couple of hours...0 -
maboleth✭✭✭✭✭
✭Believe or not, ESO is the most officially polished ES game to date. And by a long mile.
As a quester and role-player, I'd love to see animation glitches and annoying bugs finally fixed. But whoever said this was right - most "major" bugs get fixed only in these big updates. I wish those scripting issues and dailies wouldn't have to wait for big updates to come.0 -
NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yes I'd rather have quality over quantityBelieve or not, ESO is the most officially polished ES game to date. And by a long mile.
As a quester and role-player, I'd love to see animation glitches and annoying bugs finally fixed. But whoever said this was right - most "major" bugs get fixed only in these big updates. I wish those scripting issues and dailies wouldn't have to wait for big updates to come.
Are we playing the same TES titles?
Serious question-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5011 -
Moloch1514✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes I'd rather have quality over quantityNewBlacksmurf wrote: »Moloch1514 wrote: »Seems to me that if you don't end-game, then you most likely don't know or need to care about those bugs. Unless I am raiding, I usually take off all armor and weapons and run around overland content with fists as my weapon. That is still not enough to make overland PvE content challenging for someone at max CP.
So if overland content is the bulk of my exposure to combat, then sure, I dont care that Healing Ward has been broken for months and that Magplars scaling is broken.
There is actually quite a bit of broken things which do largely impact players outside of endgame.
To your example, just doing Dungeons or world bosses regular or vet brings about issues.
Then...the other side is the dungeon tool itself. I mean I think if each of us tried to avoid the known bugs...ok I know for 99% certainty if each of us set out to play and avoid all known bugs we would run into a bug.
Its been my recent experience in rolling a fresh new character just to slowly play content as a Warden.
This happens whether its DLC zones or vanilla solo
Correct, by end-game I really meant anything group dungeon wise. I run everything mostly Duo or Solo, so end-game for me is something hard enough to require wearing pants
PC-NA0 -
Apache_Kid✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Yes I'd rather have quality over quantityYdrisselle wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »rhapsodious wrote: »I think almost of the base would prefer quality over quantity, but their investors and stakeholders think differently. They want new content that makes money so that they're convinced to continue giving Zenimax their money. Bug fixes and the like are definitely important, but they just don't have as high of an ROI as stuff that actually gets added to the game. Players aren't going to flock to an update where the main advertising point is "we fixed a lot of bugs", since 90% of the game works fine or well enough (Yes, you can argue that part of that 10% is fundamentally broken. But the point remains that the game as a whole mostly works).
Stuff like lorebooks not showing up in Eidetic Memory or NPC speaking animations being wonky is annoying, yes, but it's not important in the long run, so it waits until a major patch, whereas stuff like main zone quests that are bugged in a manner that prevents completion are pushed up the priority pipeline and usually get faster fixes in an incremental.
I think it's a combination of not having the resources/Zenimax Media focusing more on content delivery than improving on what's already there. It's not a terrible decision from a business perspective, but it's definitely discouraging for players if they feel like their concerns are ignored. And sure, some of the issues addressed time and again have been in need of love for a long amount of time, please don't think I'm blindly defending all of their decisions. However I think the vast majority of their developers want to fix the bugs as much as we want them to be fixed. It's just not a productive use of time to get the art team to try to fix the lag in Cyrodiil. :P
I have to agree with this. In almost all MMO’s “Content is King”. Many gamers have the attention span of two or three months at most, and if you don’t keep them entertained, they will just go to another game that does. That’s one of the reasons ZOS throws in a special event once in awhile between updates, to keep us busy. Sure, I would like to see ZOS spend more time on bugs and QOL stuff we have been begging for (Guild structure, housing, UI improvements, the list goes on......), but they have to keep their shareholders happy with new players as well as keeping some of the old. Although I would have to say they haven’t done a stellar job of the latter considering some of the unwanted balance changes they have made recently.
Don't forget one little thing: if an MMO doesn't have new content, it's dead. One or two updates in a year definitely means "this game is starting to die, we don't even make anything for the players since there are almost none". Just look at the MMOs in maintenance mode...
While the fixes for bugs are important, it has to be done in balance with the new content. Different people are working on different aspects of an MMO, but the same people are fixing bugs in a particular system that are working on new things. Like the team which is making the new dungeons' mobs and bosses are responsible for the bugfixing of the existing dungeons' population too. Bugs are annoying, I agree with that - however fixing bugs and sacrificing new shinies for that is generally a bad idea. (yes, it's the same bad idea if a team is just pushing new shinies out and doeesn't bother to fix the old ones' problems)
There are so many difficult acheivments every time they release new dungeons and trials that I'm still working on ones from a year ago. They just keep releasing more and myself and other players will never be able to catch up with the difficulty level of some of the acheivments. There's enough content at this point to take a break to fix bugs and issues
Maybe that's enough for you and your friends. But it's absolutely not guaranteed that it's enough for the majority of the playerbase. I'm quite sure there are many players who will never try to get the hardest achievements for different reasons, and they need something to do too.
Well if they aren't going for the acheivments then two new dungeons will provide a couple hours max of play-time so what's the point even? I'm not sure I follow your argument.
They have the new levelling rewards: crown crates, costumes, housing coffer. They have a new home in Coldharbour. They have the outfits, and the housing storage. That's content too, and more than a couple of hours...
A box to put things in isn't "content" imo and neither is the outfit system in my opinion. Storage shouldve been a housing feature day 1 and the outfit system is a cosmetic enhancement system. Its not something you 'play' or 'complete'. Homes also require you to spend more money to even get to decorate them.
ESO DLCs are never large in terms of hours of content unless you're working towards the difficult acheivments. Those of us that are doing that feel as if we are being left behind with so much content that'll never be completed at this point.
The game will not be better off to keep pumping out content at the current rate while taking 3 months to fix bugs. It's unsustainable. Eventually all the spaghetti code will get too tangled.2 -
Apache_Kid✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Yes I'd rather have quality over quantityBelieve or not, ESO is the most officially polished ES game to date. And by a long mile.
As a quester and role-player, I'd love to see animation glitches and annoying bugs finally fixed. But whoever said this was right - most "major" bugs get fixed only in these big updates. I wish those scripting issues and dailies wouldn't have to wait for big updates to come.
As someone who has played every elder scrolls game except Arena I choose not to believe this. No chance in hell.2 -
maboleth✭✭✭✭✭
✭NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Are we playing the same TES titles?
Serious question
I don't know, do you? I play Skyrim & Oblivion. Both heavily unofficially patched, that are still being maintained (meaning - bugs are still being discovered/fixed). Some quests didn't work or were impossible to finish before and some animations (engine) stuff was finally addressed in Skyrim SE.
Had to memory patch Morrowind too to fix various stuff, but due to dated graphics, I never progressed much in that game.0 -
NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yes I'd rather have quality over quantityNewBlacksmurf wrote: »Are we playing the same TES titles?
Serious question
I don't know, do you? I play Skyrim & Oblivion. Both heavily unofficially patched, that are still being maintained (meaning - bugs are still being discovered/fixed). Some quests didn't work or were impossible to finish before and some animations (engine) stuff was finally addressed in Skyrim SE.
Had to memory patch Morrowind too to fix various stuff, but due to dated graphics, I never progressed much in that game.
O K
So I have them both on PC and Xbox One
Playing without any add-ons and only the official patches I've never been unable to use a skill ability, complete a quest or have I ever crashed unless it was an xbox Live or xbox issue.
Just saying comparing the three, ESO is unquestionably in worse shape.
And mind you at release those two games both had issues but updates were addressed right away and again with the re-releases.
Heck just last week I tried to buy ESO Plus and guess what. I was charged but got no crowns or benefits. Then service told me to wait 5 days and let them know if it was still broke. (Its been broke since release)
But the trial eso Plus works ingame right away....Cmon!
Later I thought I would mount up and ride around....game crashed
then told me I wasn't even online after I logged back in
for 24 hours I got an invalid message about needing xbox live
So I play PUBG, Elite Dangerous and Destiny 2...... just saying.....quality doesn't have to be perfect but game breaking bugs and issues are not addressed within 30-60 days for the last 2 years on this game consistently.
And they publicly expect that to be normal......Edited by NewBlacksmurf on January 12, 2018 8:13PM-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5012 -
Ydrisselle✭✭✭✭✭Apache_Kid wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »rhapsodious wrote: »I think almost of the base would prefer quality over quantity, but their investors and stakeholders think differently. They want new content that makes money so that they're convinced to continue giving Zenimax their money. Bug fixes and the like are definitely important, but they just don't have as high of an ROI as stuff that actually gets added to the game. Players aren't going to flock to an update where the main advertising point is "we fixed a lot of bugs", since 90% of the game works fine or well enough (Yes, you can argue that part of that 10% is fundamentally broken. But the point remains that the game as a whole mostly works).
Stuff like lorebooks not showing up in Eidetic Memory or NPC speaking animations being wonky is annoying, yes, but it's not important in the long run, so it waits until a major patch, whereas stuff like main zone quests that are bugged in a manner that prevents completion are pushed up the priority pipeline and usually get faster fixes in an incremental.
I think it's a combination of not having the resources/Zenimax Media focusing more on content delivery than improving on what's already there. It's not a terrible decision from a business perspective, but it's definitely discouraging for players if they feel like their concerns are ignored. And sure, some of the issues addressed time and again have been in need of love for a long amount of time, please don't think I'm blindly defending all of their decisions. However I think the vast majority of their developers want to fix the bugs as much as we want them to be fixed. It's just not a productive use of time to get the art team to try to fix the lag in Cyrodiil. :P
I have to agree with this. In almost all MMO’s “Content is King”. Many gamers have the attention span of two or three months at most, and if you don’t keep them entertained, they will just go to another game that does. That’s one of the reasons ZOS throws in a special event once in awhile between updates, to keep us busy. Sure, I would like to see ZOS spend more time on bugs and QOL stuff we have been begging for (Guild structure, housing, UI improvements, the list goes on......), but they have to keep their shareholders happy with new players as well as keeping some of the old. Although I would have to say they haven’t done a stellar job of the latter considering some of the unwanted balance changes they have made recently.
Don't forget one little thing: if an MMO doesn't have new content, it's dead. One or two updates in a year definitely means "this game is starting to die, we don't even make anything for the players since there are almost none". Just look at the MMOs in maintenance mode...
While the fixes for bugs are important, it has to be done in balance with the new content. Different people are working on different aspects of an MMO, but the same people are fixing bugs in a particular system that are working on new things. Like the team which is making the new dungeons' mobs and bosses are responsible for the bugfixing of the existing dungeons' population too. Bugs are annoying, I agree with that - however fixing bugs and sacrificing new shinies for that is generally a bad idea. (yes, it's the same bad idea if a team is just pushing new shinies out and doeesn't bother to fix the old ones' problems)
There are so many difficult acheivments every time they release new dungeons and trials that I'm still working on ones from a year ago. They just keep releasing more and myself and other players will never be able to catch up with the difficulty level of some of the acheivments. There's enough content at this point to take a break to fix bugs and issues
Maybe that's enough for you and your friends. But it's absolutely not guaranteed that it's enough for the majority of the playerbase. I'm quite sure there are many players who will never try to get the hardest achievements for different reasons, and they need something to do too.
Well if they aren't going for the acheivments then two new dungeons will provide a couple hours max of play-time so what's the point even? I'm not sure I follow your argument.
They have the new levelling rewards: crown crates, costumes, housing coffer. They have a new home in Coldharbour. They have the outfits, and the housing storage. That's content too, and more than a couple of hours...
A box to put things in isn't "content" imo and neither is the outfit system in my opinion. Storage shouldve been a housing feature day 1 and the outfit system is a cosmetic enhancement system. Its not something you 'play' or 'complete'. Homes also require you to spend more money to even get to decorate them.
ESO DLCs are never large in terms of hours of content unless you're working towards the difficult acheivments. Those of us that are doing that feel as if we are being left behind with so much content that'll never be completed at this point.
The game will not be better off to keep pumping out content at the current rate while taking 3 months to fix bugs. It's unsustainable. Eventually all the spaghetti code will get too tangled.
I've played many MMOs over the years, and I'm sure that the players who are working to reach the hardest achievements are always a minority of the complete playerbase, never more than 10% - however they tend to be one of the loudest group on the forum/Twitter/live streams etc. They also rarely understand that everything is content which requires any kind of farming to get, be it a new player house or getting a desired outfit (in ESO's case that means grabbing the required motif).
I know that I will spend most of my in-game time exploring, collecting things I want to grab and I will care more about the levelling rewards than any of the dungeons. I also know that I'm still not belong to the majority of the players, so I don't want ZOS to accept my unique viewpoint about what is important and what is not. They have the numbers, they know which type of content is played by most of the players, which type is interesting for half os the playerbase and what makes tick only 10-15% - and they will make new things according to that data. So if they don't really change something that could mean two things: 1. it's harder to fix than it seems without broking something else (or they don't have a great idea how to do it); 2. it affects too few players, so it's lower on the priority list.2 -
Apache_Kid✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Yes I'd rather have quality over quantityYdrisselle wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »rhapsodious wrote: »I think almost of the base would prefer quality over quantity, but their investors and stakeholders think differently. They want new content that makes money so that they're convinced to continue giving Zenimax their money. Bug fixes and the like are definitely important, but they just don't have as high of an ROI as stuff that actually gets added to the game. Players aren't going to flock to an update where the main advertising point is "we fixed a lot of bugs", since 90% of the game works fine or well enough (Yes, you can argue that part of that 10% is fundamentally broken. But the point remains that the game as a whole mostly works).
Stuff like lorebooks not showing up in Eidetic Memory or NPC speaking animations being wonky is annoying, yes, but it's not important in the long run, so it waits until a major patch, whereas stuff like main zone quests that are bugged in a manner that prevents completion are pushed up the priority pipeline and usually get faster fixes in an incremental.
I think it's a combination of not having the resources/Zenimax Media focusing more on content delivery than improving on what's already there. It's not a terrible decision from a business perspective, but it's definitely discouraging for players if they feel like their concerns are ignored. And sure, some of the issues addressed time and again have been in need of love for a long amount of time, please don't think I'm blindly defending all of their decisions. However I think the vast majority of their developers want to fix the bugs as much as we want them to be fixed. It's just not a productive use of time to get the art team to try to fix the lag in Cyrodiil. :P
I have to agree with this. In almost all MMO’s “Content is King”. Many gamers have the attention span of two or three months at most, and if you don’t keep them entertained, they will just go to another game that does. That’s one of the reasons ZOS throws in a special event once in awhile between updates, to keep us busy. Sure, I would like to see ZOS spend more time on bugs and QOL stuff we have been begging for (Guild structure, housing, UI improvements, the list goes on......), but they have to keep their shareholders happy with new players as well as keeping some of the old. Although I would have to say they haven’t done a stellar job of the latter considering some of the unwanted balance changes they have made recently.
Don't forget one little thing: if an MMO doesn't have new content, it's dead. One or two updates in a year definitely means "this game is starting to die, we don't even make anything for the players since there are almost none". Just look at the MMOs in maintenance mode...
While the fixes for bugs are important, it has to be done in balance with the new content. Different people are working on different aspects of an MMO, but the same people are fixing bugs in a particular system that are working on new things. Like the team which is making the new dungeons' mobs and bosses are responsible for the bugfixing of the existing dungeons' population too. Bugs are annoying, I agree with that - however fixing bugs and sacrificing new shinies for that is generally a bad idea. (yes, it's the same bad idea if a team is just pushing new shinies out and doeesn't bother to fix the old ones' problems)
There are so many difficult acheivments every time they release new dungeons and trials that I'm still working on ones from a year ago. They just keep releasing more and myself and other players will never be able to catch up with the difficulty level of some of the acheivments. There's enough content at this point to take a break to fix bugs and issues
Maybe that's enough for you and your friends. But it's absolutely not guaranteed that it's enough for the majority of the playerbase. I'm quite sure there are many players who will never try to get the hardest achievements for different reasons, and they need something to do too.
Well if they aren't going for the acheivments then two new dungeons will provide a couple hours max of play-time so what's the point even? I'm not sure I follow your argument.
They have the new levelling rewards: crown crates, costumes, housing coffer. They have a new home in Coldharbour. They have the outfits, and the housing storage. That's content too, and more than a couple of hours...
A box to put things in isn't "content" imo and neither is the outfit system in my opinion. Storage shouldve been a housing feature day 1 and the outfit system is a cosmetic enhancement system. Its not something you 'play' or 'complete'. Homes also require you to spend more money to even get to decorate them.
ESO DLCs are never large in terms of hours of content unless you're working towards the difficult acheivments. Those of us that are doing that feel as if we are being left behind with so much content that'll never be completed at this point.
The game will not be better off to keep pumping out content at the current rate while taking 3 months to fix bugs. It's unsustainable. Eventually all the spaghetti code will get too tangled.
I've played many MMOs over the years, and I'm sure that the players who are working to reach the hardest achievements are always a minority of the complete playerbase, never more than 10% - however they tend to be one of the loudest group on the forum/Twitter/live streams etc. They also rarely understand that everything is content which requires any kind of farming to get, be it a new player house or getting a desired outfit (in ESO's case that means grabbing the required motif).
I know that I will spend most of my in-game time exploring, collecting things I want to grab and I will care more about the levelling rewards than any of the dungeons. I also know that I'm still not belong to the majority of the players, so I don't want ZOS to accept my unique viewpoint about what is important and what is not. They have the numbers, they know which type of content is played by most of the players, which type is interesting for half os the playerbase and what makes tick only 10-15% - and they will make new things according to that data. So if they don't really change something that could mean two things: 1. it's harder to fix than it seems without broking something else (or they don't have a great idea how to do it); 2. it affects too few players, so it's lower on the priority list.
Ah yes I'm such a jerk for trying to get ZoS to accept my "unique viewpoint" that they should fix the bugs and performance issues with the game in a reasonable amount of time.Edited by Apache_Kid on January 12, 2018 8:31PM2 -
maboleth✭✭✭✭✭
✭NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Heck just last week I tried to buy ESO Plus and guess what. I was charged but got no crowns or benefits. Then service told me to wait 5 days and let them know if it was still broke. (Its been broke since release)
But the trial eso Plus works ingame right away....Cmon!
Later I thought I would mount up and ride around....game crashed
then told me I wasn't even online after I logged back in
for 24 hours I got an invalid message about needing xbox live
So I play PUBG, Elite Dangerous and Destiny 2...... just saying.....quality doesn't have to be perfect but game breaking bugs and issues are not addressed within 30-60 days for the last 2 years on this game consistently.
And they publicly expect that to be normal......
Sorry to see your ESO not performing well. Since 2015 I've had ESO crashed only few times and it was right after CWC was released, but all is well now. At the same time I had disconnections, but overall, in 3 years, the game was rock solid.
Had zero problems with ESO Plus or any other major issue. I don't have a "magic" PC, it is a high-level (though not the highest level) and I keep everything very clean in Win 10.
Do note that ESO is by far the biggest and most complex ES game to date. Not only by its size, number of quests and NPCs, the game has to work catering tens of thousands of people at once, doing various activities and approaching same quests and goals in very different ways, unlike other ES games.
So in my experience, I had more problems playing vanilla Oblivion & Skyrim than ESO. Unofficial patches ironed almost everything, but it was done by dedicated fans, not Bethesda.
Speaking of Elite Dangerous, I know something about it (let's say my darling was playing it since v1.0) and there's no way that ESO is doing worse than ED. ED has p2p connections to Amazon servers that are prone to (very) frequent disconnections, total freeze-crashing in heavily populated stations (already documented by their QA), crashing in multi-crew (also documented but never fixed). Not to mention frequent black rectangle textures when flying low-altitude and various other mission bugs. And the fact that ED is a teeny-tiny game compared to ESO and its massive population.
ED doesn't have weekly incremental updates that often (if at all, mostly 2-3 patches between majors) even though bug section on the forums is bursting with their numbers. Truthfully, those games can't be technically compared.
But oh well, to each their own I guess, even when performance is at work. 0 -
Chaos2088✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I would like to have both...not one or the other. @Chaos2088 PC EU Server | AD-PvP1 -
Ydrisselle✭✭✭✭✭Apache_Kid wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »rhapsodious wrote: »I think almost of the base would prefer quality over quantity, but their investors and stakeholders think differently. They want new content that makes money so that they're convinced to continue giving Zenimax their money. Bug fixes and the like are definitely important, but they just don't have as high of an ROI as stuff that actually gets added to the game. Players aren't going to flock to an update where the main advertising point is "we fixed a lot of bugs", since 90% of the game works fine or well enough (Yes, you can argue that part of that 10% is fundamentally broken. But the point remains that the game as a whole mostly works).
Stuff like lorebooks not showing up in Eidetic Memory or NPC speaking animations being wonky is annoying, yes, but it's not important in the long run, so it waits until a major patch, whereas stuff like main zone quests that are bugged in a manner that prevents completion are pushed up the priority pipeline and usually get faster fixes in an incremental.
I think it's a combination of not having the resources/Zenimax Media focusing more on content delivery than improving on what's already there. It's not a terrible decision from a business perspective, but it's definitely discouraging for players if they feel like their concerns are ignored. And sure, some of the issues addressed time and again have been in need of love for a long amount of time, please don't think I'm blindly defending all of their decisions. However I think the vast majority of their developers want to fix the bugs as much as we want them to be fixed. It's just not a productive use of time to get the art team to try to fix the lag in Cyrodiil. :P
I have to agree with this. In almost all MMO’s “Content is King”. Many gamers have the attention span of two or three months at most, and if you don’t keep them entertained, they will just go to another game that does. That’s one of the reasons ZOS throws in a special event once in awhile between updates, to keep us busy. Sure, I would like to see ZOS spend more time on bugs and QOL stuff we have been begging for (Guild structure, housing, UI improvements, the list goes on......), but they have to keep their shareholders happy with new players as well as keeping some of the old. Although I would have to say they haven’t done a stellar job of the latter considering some of the unwanted balance changes they have made recently.
Don't forget one little thing: if an MMO doesn't have new content, it's dead. One or two updates in a year definitely means "this game is starting to die, we don't even make anything for the players since there are almost none". Just look at the MMOs in maintenance mode...
While the fixes for bugs are important, it has to be done in balance with the new content. Different people are working on different aspects of an MMO, but the same people are fixing bugs in a particular system that are working on new things. Like the team which is making the new dungeons' mobs and bosses are responsible for the bugfixing of the existing dungeons' population too. Bugs are annoying, I agree with that - however fixing bugs and sacrificing new shinies for that is generally a bad idea. (yes, it's the same bad idea if a team is just pushing new shinies out and doeesn't bother to fix the old ones' problems)
There are so many difficult acheivments every time they release new dungeons and trials that I'm still working on ones from a year ago. They just keep releasing more and myself and other players will never be able to catch up with the difficulty level of some of the acheivments. There's enough content at this point to take a break to fix bugs and issues
Maybe that's enough for you and your friends. But it's absolutely not guaranteed that it's enough for the majority of the playerbase. I'm quite sure there are many players who will never try to get the hardest achievements for different reasons, and they need something to do too.
Well if they aren't going for the acheivments then two new dungeons will provide a couple hours max of play-time so what's the point even? I'm not sure I follow your argument.
They have the new levelling rewards: crown crates, costumes, housing coffer. They have a new home in Coldharbour. They have the outfits, and the housing storage. That's content too, and more than a couple of hours...
A box to put things in isn't "content" imo and neither is the outfit system in my opinion. Storage shouldve been a housing feature day 1 and the outfit system is a cosmetic enhancement system. Its not something you 'play' or 'complete'. Homes also require you to spend more money to even get to decorate them.
ESO DLCs are never large in terms of hours of content unless you're working towards the difficult acheivments. Those of us that are doing that feel as if we are being left behind with so much content that'll never be completed at this point.
The game will not be better off to keep pumping out content at the current rate while taking 3 months to fix bugs. It's unsustainable. Eventually all the spaghetti code will get too tangled.
I've played many MMOs over the years, and I'm sure that the players who are working to reach the hardest achievements are always a minority of the complete playerbase, never more than 10% - however they tend to be one of the loudest group on the forum/Twitter/live streams etc. They also rarely understand that everything is content which requires any kind of farming to get, be it a new player house or getting a desired outfit (in ESO's case that means grabbing the required motif).
I know that I will spend most of my in-game time exploring, collecting things I want to grab and I will care more about the levelling rewards than any of the dungeons. I also know that I'm still not belong to the majority of the players, so I don't want ZOS to accept my unique viewpoint about what is important and what is not. They have the numbers, they know which type of content is played by most of the players, which type is interesting for half os the playerbase and what makes tick only 10-15% - and they will make new things according to that data. So if they don't really change something that could mean two things: 1. it's harder to fix than it seems without broking something else (or they don't have a great idea how to do it); 2. it affects too few players, so it's lower on the priority list.
Ah yes I'm such a jerk for trying to get ZoS to accept my "unique viewpoint" that they should fix the bugs and performance issues with the game in a reasonable amount of time.
That's normal. Assuming that the most important content is the hardest dungeon can be a flawed viewpoint. Assuming that most players find PvP one of the most important aspect of the game can be a flawed viewpoint. Assuming that they don't want to fix the bugs and improve the performance is almost surely a flawed viewpoint.0 -
RABIDxWOLVERINE✭✭✭✭I like the updates as it keeps new stuff coming to the game. I refuse to vote though because of the wording of your options. I see a lot of talk about issues with the game but myself have experienced very few. Based on my experiences, as that's all I can truly go off of, I like their content schedule and am really looking forward to update 17.
With that being said I'm happy with the quality and quantity that ESO provides and look forward to much more for hopefully years to come!Edited by RABIDxWOLVERINE on January 12, 2018 9:12PMRhaegar Gregorson, The Ebonheart Centurion - Imperial Dragonknight
RABIDxWOLVERINE - Xbox One, NA, Ebonheart Pact
Loreseekers
BLOOD FOR THE PACT!2 -
NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yes I'd rather have quality over quantityNewBlacksmurf wrote: »Heck just last week I tried to buy ESO Plus and guess what. I was charged but got no crowns or benefits. Then service told me to wait 5 days and let them know if it was still broke. (Its been broke since release)
But the trial eso Plus works ingame right away....Cmon!
Later I thought I would mount up and ride around....game crashed
then told me I wasn't even online after I logged back in
for 24 hours I got an invalid message about needing xbox live
So I play PUBG, Elite Dangerous and Destiny 2...... just saying.....quality doesn't have to be perfect but game breaking bugs and issues are not addressed within 30-60 days for the last 2 years on this game consistently.
And they publicly expect that to be normal......
Sorry to see your ESO not performing well. Since 2015 I've had ESO crashed only few times and it was right after CWC was released, but all is well now. At the same time I had disconnections, but overall, in 3 years, the game was rock solid.
Had zero problems with ESO Plus or any other major issue. I don't have a "magic" PC, it is a high-level (though not the highest level) and I keep everything very clean in Win 10.
Do note that ESO is by far the biggest and most complex ES game to date. Not only by its size, number of quests and NPCs, the game has to work catering tens of thousands of people at once, doing various activities and approaching same quests and goals in very different ways, unlike other ES games.
So in my experience, I had more problems playing vanilla Oblivion & Skyrim than ESO. Unofficial patches ironed almost everything, but it was done by dedicated fans, not Bethesda.
Speaking of Elite Dangerous, I know something about it (let's say my darling was playing it since v1.0) and there's no way that ESO is doing worse than ED. ED has p2p connections to Amazon servers that are prone to (very) frequent disconnections, total freeze-crashing in heavily populated stations (already documented by their QA), crashing in multi-crew (also documented but never fixed). Not to mention frequent black rectangle textures when flying low-altitude and various other mission bugs. And the fact that ED is a teeny-tiny game compared to ESO and its massive population.
ED doesn't have weekly incremental updates that often (if at all, mostly 2-3 patches between majors) even though bug section on the forums is bursting with their numbers. Truthfully, those games can't be technically compared.
But oh well, to each their own I guess, even when performance is at work.
No need to be sorry its not your fault.
Elite Dangerous on Xbox One compared to ESO on Xbox One......
In terms of quality is way above ESO, its no question. Elite Dangerous does crash but that is minor by comparison to ESO's frequency
Also...when bugs hit Elite, they are literally addressed and fixed. I can think of only one that is outstanding but it a weird bug that isn't game breaking...its a sound bug for only one ship
The complexity of the games don't matter as that is a developers job to manage a team of talented individuals to accomplish their goals whether lofty or realistic.
Sorry I've been around too long and seen too much. Its a leadership issue. Again not saying everything should be perfect but in terms of literal game breaking issues and the frequency of new ones being created coupled with the length of time these exists before even being acknowledged I start to look at ideas for resolution. Worth discussing at least amongst ourselves
cadence seems appropriate if its quality over quantity.Edited by NewBlacksmurf on January 12, 2018 9:16PM-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5010 -
Apache_Kid✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Yes I'd rather have quality over quantityYdrisselle wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »rhapsodious wrote: »I think almost of the base would prefer quality over quantity, but their investors and stakeholders think differently. They want new content that makes money so that they're convinced to continue giving Zenimax their money. Bug fixes and the like are definitely important, but they just don't have as high of an ROI as stuff that actually gets added to the game. Players aren't going to flock to an update where the main advertising point is "we fixed a lot of bugs", since 90% of the game works fine or well enough (Yes, you can argue that part of that 10% is fundamentally broken. But the point remains that the game as a whole mostly works).
Stuff like lorebooks not showing up in Eidetic Memory or NPC speaking animations being wonky is annoying, yes, but it's not important in the long run, so it waits until a major patch, whereas stuff like main zone quests that are bugged in a manner that prevents completion are pushed up the priority pipeline and usually get faster fixes in an incremental.
I think it's a combination of not having the resources/Zenimax Media focusing more on content delivery than improving on what's already there. It's not a terrible decision from a business perspective, but it's definitely discouraging for players if they feel like their concerns are ignored. And sure, some of the issues addressed time and again have been in need of love for a long amount of time, please don't think I'm blindly defending all of their decisions. However I think the vast majority of their developers want to fix the bugs as much as we want them to be fixed. It's just not a productive use of time to get the art team to try to fix the lag in Cyrodiil. :P
I have to agree with this. In almost all MMO’s “Content is King”. Many gamers have the attention span of two or three months at most, and if you don’t keep them entertained, they will just go to another game that does. That’s one of the reasons ZOS throws in a special event once in awhile between updates, to keep us busy. Sure, I would like to see ZOS spend more time on bugs and QOL stuff we have been begging for (Guild structure, housing, UI improvements, the list goes on......), but they have to keep their shareholders happy with new players as well as keeping some of the old. Although I would have to say they haven’t done a stellar job of the latter considering some of the unwanted balance changes they have made recently.
Don't forget one little thing: if an MMO doesn't have new content, it's dead. One or two updates in a year definitely means "this game is starting to die, we don't even make anything for the players since there are almost none". Just look at the MMOs in maintenance mode...
While the fixes for bugs are important, it has to be done in balance with the new content. Different people are working on different aspects of an MMO, but the same people are fixing bugs in a particular system that are working on new things. Like the team which is making the new dungeons' mobs and bosses are responsible for the bugfixing of the existing dungeons' population too. Bugs are annoying, I agree with that - however fixing bugs and sacrificing new shinies for that is generally a bad idea. (yes, it's the same bad idea if a team is just pushing new shinies out and doeesn't bother to fix the old ones' problems)
There are so many difficult acheivments every time they release new dungeons and trials that I'm still working on ones from a year ago. They just keep releasing more and myself and other players will never be able to catch up with the difficulty level of some of the acheivments. There's enough content at this point to take a break to fix bugs and issues
Maybe that's enough for you and your friends. But it's absolutely not guaranteed that it's enough for the majority of the playerbase. I'm quite sure there are many players who will never try to get the hardest achievements for different reasons, and they need something to do too.
Well if they aren't going for the acheivments then two new dungeons will provide a couple hours max of play-time so what's the point even? I'm not sure I follow your argument.
They have the new levelling rewards: crown crates, costumes, housing coffer. They have a new home in Coldharbour. They have the outfits, and the housing storage. That's content too, and more than a couple of hours...
A box to put things in isn't "content" imo and neither is the outfit system in my opinion. Storage shouldve been a housing feature day 1 and the outfit system is a cosmetic enhancement system. Its not something you 'play' or 'complete'. Homes also require you to spend more money to even get to decorate them.
ESO DLCs are never large in terms of hours of content unless you're working towards the difficult acheivments. Those of us that are doing that feel as if we are being left behind with so much content that'll never be completed at this point.
The game will not be better off to keep pumping out content at the current rate while taking 3 months to fix bugs. It's unsustainable. Eventually all the spaghetti code will get too tangled.
I've played many MMOs over the years, and I'm sure that the players who are working to reach the hardest achievements are always a minority of the complete playerbase, never more than 10% - however they tend to be one of the loudest group on the forum/Twitter/live streams etc. They also rarely understand that everything is content which requires any kind of farming to get, be it a new player house or getting a desired outfit (in ESO's case that means grabbing the required motif).
I know that I will spend most of my in-game time exploring, collecting things I want to grab and I will care more about the levelling rewards than any of the dungeons. I also know that I'm still not belong to the majority of the players, so I don't want ZOS to accept my unique viewpoint about what is important and what is not. They have the numbers, they know which type of content is played by most of the players, which type is interesting for half os the playerbase and what makes tick only 10-15% - and they will make new things according to that data. So if they don't really change something that could mean two things: 1. it's harder to fix than it seems without broking something else (or they don't have a great idea how to do it); 2. it affects too few players, so it's lower on the priority list.
Ah yes I'm such a jerk for trying to get ZoS to accept my "unique viewpoint" that they should fix the bugs and performance issues with the game in a reasonable amount of time.
That's normal. Assuming that the most important content is the hardest dungeon can be a flawed viewpoint. Assuming that most players find PvP one of the most important aspect of the game can be a flawed viewpoint. Assuming that they don't want to fix the bugs and improve the performance is almost surely a flawed viewpoint.
They don't get points for wanting to fix the bugs they need to actually do it. Also MOST players aren't all going to play any content because there is so much to do in the game that the population is spread out. Your argument of "well we should only fix stuff most players care about" is ridiculous. Just becsuse most people don't find PvP to be important we should tolerate Cyrodiil performing like ****? I can see why you don't care about any thing like people crashing and having low dungeons in trials, dungeons, and Cyrodiil if you are just a roleplayer who runs around and does quests and collecting things you want to grab. Well there are alot of us who actually care about PvP and end-game content and many of us pay $15 a month for the game so it actually should be fixed and the infrastructure should be upgraded. It's just that simple.2 -
NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yes I'd rather have quality over quantityApache_Kid wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »rhapsodious wrote: »I think almost of the base would prefer quality over quantity, but their investors and stakeholders think differently. They want new content that makes money so that they're convinced to continue giving Zenimax their money. Bug fixes and the like are definitely important, but they just don't have as high of an ROI as stuff that actually gets added to the game. Players aren't going to flock to an update where the main advertising point is "we fixed a lot of bugs", since 90% of the game works fine or well enough (Yes, you can argue that part of that 10% is fundamentally broken. But the point remains that the game as a whole mostly works).
Stuff like lorebooks not showing up in Eidetic Memory or NPC speaking animations being wonky is annoying, yes, but it's not important in the long run, so it waits until a major patch, whereas stuff like main zone quests that are bugged in a manner that prevents completion are pushed up the priority pipeline and usually get faster fixes in an incremental.
I think it's a combination of not having the resources/Zenimax Media focusing more on content delivery than improving on what's already there. It's not a terrible decision from a business perspective, but it's definitely discouraging for players if they feel like their concerns are ignored. And sure, some of the issues addressed time and again have been in need of love for a long amount of time, please don't think I'm blindly defending all of their decisions. However I think the vast majority of their developers want to fix the bugs as much as we want them to be fixed. It's just not a productive use of time to get the art team to try to fix the lag in Cyrodiil. :P
I have to agree with this. In almost all MMO’s “Content is King”. Many gamers have the attention span of two or three months at most, and if you don’t keep them entertained, they will just go to another game that does. That’s one of the reasons ZOS throws in a special event once in awhile between updates, to keep us busy. Sure, I would like to see ZOS spend more time on bugs and QOL stuff we have been begging for (Guild structure, housing, UI improvements, the list goes on......), but they have to keep their shareholders happy with new players as well as keeping some of the old. Although I would have to say they haven’t done a stellar job of the latter considering some of the unwanted balance changes they have made recently.
Don't forget one little thing: if an MMO doesn't have new content, it's dead. One or two updates in a year definitely means "this game is starting to die, we don't even make anything for the players since there are almost none". Just look at the MMOs in maintenance mode...
While the fixes for bugs are important, it has to be done in balance with the new content. Different people are working on different aspects of an MMO, but the same people are fixing bugs in a particular system that are working on new things. Like the team which is making the new dungeons' mobs and bosses are responsible for the bugfixing of the existing dungeons' population too. Bugs are annoying, I agree with that - however fixing bugs and sacrificing new shinies for that is generally a bad idea. (yes, it's the same bad idea if a team is just pushing new shinies out and doeesn't bother to fix the old ones' problems)
There are so many difficult acheivments every time they release new dungeons and trials that I'm still working on ones from a year ago. They just keep releasing more and myself and other players will never be able to catch up with the difficulty level of some of the acheivments. There's enough content at this point to take a break to fix bugs and issues
Maybe that's enough for you and your friends. But it's absolutely not guaranteed that it's enough for the majority of the playerbase. I'm quite sure there are many players who will never try to get the hardest achievements for different reasons, and they need something to do too.
Well if they aren't going for the acheivments then two new dungeons will provide a couple hours max of play-time so what's the point even? I'm not sure I follow your argument.
They have the new levelling rewards: crown crates, costumes, housing coffer. They have a new home in Coldharbour. They have the outfits, and the housing storage. That's content too, and more than a couple of hours...
A box to put things in isn't "content" imo and neither is the outfit system in my opinion. Storage shouldve been a housing feature day 1 and the outfit system is a cosmetic enhancement system. Its not something you 'play' or 'complete'. Homes also require you to spend more money to even get to decorate them.
ESO DLCs are never large in terms of hours of content unless you're working towards the difficult acheivments. Those of us that are doing that feel as if we are being left behind with so much content that'll never be completed at this point.
The game will not be better off to keep pumping out content at the current rate while taking 3 months to fix bugs. It's unsustainable. Eventually all the spaghetti code will get too tangled.
I've played many MMOs over the years, and I'm sure that the players who are working to reach the hardest achievements are always a minority of the complete playerbase, never more than 10% - however they tend to be one of the loudest group on the forum/Twitter/live streams etc. They also rarely understand that everything is content which requires any kind of farming to get, be it a new player house or getting a desired outfit (in ESO's case that means grabbing the required motif).
I know that I will spend most of my in-game time exploring, collecting things I want to grab and I will care more about the levelling rewards than any of the dungeons. I also know that I'm still not belong to the majority of the players, so I don't want ZOS to accept my unique viewpoint about what is important and what is not. They have the numbers, they know which type of content is played by most of the players, which type is interesting for half os the playerbase and what makes tick only 10-15% - and they will make new things according to that data. So if they don't really change something that could mean two things: 1. it's harder to fix than it seems without broking something else (or they don't have a great idea how to do it); 2. it affects too few players, so it's lower on the priority list.
Ah yes I'm such a jerk for trying to get ZoS to accept my "unique viewpoint" that they should fix the bugs and performance issues with the game in a reasonable amount of time.
That's normal. Assuming that the most important content is the hardest dungeon can be a flawed viewpoint. Assuming that most players find PvP one of the most important aspect of the game can be a flawed viewpoint. Assuming that they don't want to fix the bugs and improve the performance is almost surely a flawed viewpoint.
They don't get points for wanting to fix the bugs they need to actually do it. Also MOST players aren't all going to play any content because there is so much to do in the game that the population is spread out. Your argument of "well we should only fix stuff most players care about" is ridiculous. Just becsuse most people don't find PvP to be important we should tolerate Cyrodiil performing like ****? I can see why you don't care about any thing like people crashing and having low dungeons in trials, dungeons, and Cyrodiil if you are just a roleplayer who runs around and does quests and collecting things you want to grab. Well there are alot of us who actually care about PvP and end-game content and many of us pay $15 a month for the game so it actually should be fixed and the infrastructure should be upgraded. It's just that simple.
I don't even like PvP but....aye....there are enough who do so being that Cyrodil performance has always been a problem from the start. Yeah....it does need to be fixed, not worked on and not...lets try this or that
They know what the issues are.
Its what they are trying to do isn't possible....so remove it and offer something of interest in place of it.
Not sure how many were around when you could buy the Cyrodil mercenaries which were removed for said performance.
Then pets, wild life, CP,.....the list goes on
Maybe....just maybe remove Cyrodil is the solution. Realistic solution even if it makes people upset. Or at least try small battleground versions of Cyrodil if you're truly testing....ya know and remove the PvE from it.-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5010 -
AhPook_Is_Here✭✭✭✭✭
✭I really don't have an opinion of their productivity cycle, they know how to manage their resources to optimize their cost to retention ratio. I do, however, strongly agree with one thing you posted and that is the obsolete descriptions of abilities and their clearness of their additive and multiplicative properties.
I would really love it if they released a codex with a complete list of all the expressions of player abilities so you could build with math instead of feels.“Whatever.”
-Unknown American0 -
maboleth✭✭✭✭✭
✭Riiight. In all fairness, I cannot comment on Xbox performance, for both games. I have PC only.
But just scratch their official forums and see how "fast" things are being addressed (and how can it be when they have a few patches in between?). About their competent team... I'm out of words, because FDev literally falls on deaf ears for majority of community cries, ideas and suggestions. If anything their incompetence shines throughout a game with the missed opportunity, failed or half-baked upgrades (cqc, powerplay, multi-crew, to name a few). But I get it, grass is always greener on the other side. :P
Edited by maboleth on January 12, 2018 9:31PM0 -
Ydrisselle✭✭✭✭✭Apache_Kid wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »rhapsodious wrote: »I think almost of the base would prefer quality over quantity, but their investors and stakeholders think differently. They want new content that makes money so that they're convinced to continue giving Zenimax their money. Bug fixes and the like are definitely important, but they just don't have as high of an ROI as stuff that actually gets added to the game. Players aren't going to flock to an update where the main advertising point is "we fixed a lot of bugs", since 90% of the game works fine or well enough (Yes, you can argue that part of that 10% is fundamentally broken. But the point remains that the game as a whole mostly works).
Stuff like lorebooks not showing up in Eidetic Memory or NPC speaking animations being wonky is annoying, yes, but it's not important in the long run, so it waits until a major patch, whereas stuff like main zone quests that are bugged in a manner that prevents completion are pushed up the priority pipeline and usually get faster fixes in an incremental.
I think it's a combination of not having the resources/Zenimax Media focusing more on content delivery than improving on what's already there. It's not a terrible decision from a business perspective, but it's definitely discouraging for players if they feel like their concerns are ignored. And sure, some of the issues addressed time and again have been in need of love for a long amount of time, please don't think I'm blindly defending all of their decisions. However I think the vast majority of their developers want to fix the bugs as much as we want them to be fixed. It's just not a productive use of time to get the art team to try to fix the lag in Cyrodiil. :P
I have to agree with this. In almost all MMO’s “Content is King”. Many gamers have the attention span of two or three months at most, and if you don’t keep them entertained, they will just go to another game that does. That’s one of the reasons ZOS throws in a special event once in awhile between updates, to keep us busy. Sure, I would like to see ZOS spend more time on bugs and QOL stuff we have been begging for (Guild structure, housing, UI improvements, the list goes on......), but they have to keep their shareholders happy with new players as well as keeping some of the old. Although I would have to say they haven’t done a stellar job of the latter considering some of the unwanted balance changes they have made recently.
Don't forget one little thing: if an MMO doesn't have new content, it's dead. One or two updates in a year definitely means "this game is starting to die, we don't even make anything for the players since there are almost none". Just look at the MMOs in maintenance mode...
While the fixes for bugs are important, it has to be done in balance with the new content. Different people are working on different aspects of an MMO, but the same people are fixing bugs in a particular system that are working on new things. Like the team which is making the new dungeons' mobs and bosses are responsible for the bugfixing of the existing dungeons' population too. Bugs are annoying, I agree with that - however fixing bugs and sacrificing new shinies for that is generally a bad idea. (yes, it's the same bad idea if a team is just pushing new shinies out and doeesn't bother to fix the old ones' problems)
There are so many difficult acheivments every time they release new dungeons and trials that I'm still working on ones from a year ago. They just keep releasing more and myself and other players will never be able to catch up with the difficulty level of some of the acheivments. There's enough content at this point to take a break to fix bugs and issues
Maybe that's enough for you and your friends. But it's absolutely not guaranteed that it's enough for the majority of the playerbase. I'm quite sure there are many players who will never try to get the hardest achievements for different reasons, and they need something to do too.
Well if they aren't going for the acheivments then two new dungeons will provide a couple hours max of play-time so what's the point even? I'm not sure I follow your argument.
They have the new levelling rewards: crown crates, costumes, housing coffer. They have a new home in Coldharbour. They have the outfits, and the housing storage. That's content too, and more than a couple of hours...
A box to put things in isn't "content" imo and neither is the outfit system in my opinion. Storage shouldve been a housing feature day 1 and the outfit system is a cosmetic enhancement system. Its not something you 'play' or 'complete'. Homes also require you to spend more money to even get to decorate them.
ESO DLCs are never large in terms of hours of content unless you're working towards the difficult acheivments. Those of us that are doing that feel as if we are being left behind with so much content that'll never be completed at this point.
The game will not be better off to keep pumping out content at the current rate while taking 3 months to fix bugs. It's unsustainable. Eventually all the spaghetti code will get too tangled.
I've played many MMOs over the years, and I'm sure that the players who are working to reach the hardest achievements are always a minority of the complete playerbase, never more than 10% - however they tend to be one of the loudest group on the forum/Twitter/live streams etc. They also rarely understand that everything is content which requires any kind of farming to get, be it a new player house or getting a desired outfit (in ESO's case that means grabbing the required motif).
I know that I will spend most of my in-game time exploring, collecting things I want to grab and I will care more about the levelling rewards than any of the dungeons. I also know that I'm still not belong to the majority of the players, so I don't want ZOS to accept my unique viewpoint about what is important and what is not. They have the numbers, they know which type of content is played by most of the players, which type is interesting for half os the playerbase and what makes tick only 10-15% - and they will make new things according to that data. So if they don't really change something that could mean two things: 1. it's harder to fix than it seems without broking something else (or they don't have a great idea how to do it); 2. it affects too few players, so it's lower on the priority list.
Ah yes I'm such a jerk for trying to get ZoS to accept my "unique viewpoint" that they should fix the bugs and performance issues with the game in a reasonable amount of time.
That's normal. Assuming that the most important content is the hardest dungeon can be a flawed viewpoint. Assuming that most players find PvP one of the most important aspect of the game can be a flawed viewpoint. Assuming that they don't want to fix the bugs and improve the performance is almost surely a flawed viewpoint.
They don't get points for wanting to fix the bugs they need to actually do it. Also MOST players aren't all going to play any content because there is so much to do in the game that the population is spread out. Your argument of "well we should only fix stuff most players care about" is ridiculous. Just becsuse most people don't find PvP to be important we should tolerate Cyrodiil performing like ****? I can see why you don't care about any thing like people crashing and having low dungeons in trials, dungeons, and Cyrodiil if you are just a roleplayer who runs around and does quests and collecting things you want to grab. Well there are alot of us who actually care about PvP and end-game content and many of us pay $15 a month for the game so it actually should be fixed and the infrastructure should be upgraded. It's just that simple.
I'm saying the Cyrodiil performance problems would have been already fixed if it was easy to do that. I'm saying if a problem affects the daily routine of more than 50% of the playerbase, it should be fixed as soon as possible. I'm saying the importance of a bug shouldn't be decided based on the forum. You are right, I don't care about PvP or end-game raiding, but I still pay the same €13 as you, therefore I don't really see why you should be prioritized (except if you are a highly qualified tester with great experience in software Q&A or development, then I accept that you can have ideas which are better than my thoughts).
Plus it's definitely harder to patch a problem on consoles, since the patch should be approved by Sony/Microsoft and they are very picky, sometimes ridiculously slow. So even if ZOS solves the problem on PC, it's still not sure that they can do the same for consoles too.0 -
Apache_Kid✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Yes I'd rather have quality over quantityYdrisselle wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »rhapsodious wrote: »I think almost of the base would prefer quality over quantity, but their investors and stakeholders think differently. They want new content that makes money so that they're convinced to continue giving Zenimax their money. Bug fixes and the like are definitely important, but they just don't have as high of an ROI as stuff that actually gets added to the game. Players aren't going to flock to an update where the main advertising point is "we fixed a lot of bugs", since 90% of the game works fine or well enough (Yes, you can argue that part of that 10% is fundamentally broken. But the point remains that the game as a whole mostly works).
Stuff like lorebooks not showing up in Eidetic Memory or NPC speaking animations being wonky is annoying, yes, but it's not important in the long run, so it waits until a major patch, whereas stuff like main zone quests that are bugged in a manner that prevents completion are pushed up the priority pipeline and usually get faster fixes in an incremental.
I think it's a combination of not having the resources/Zenimax Media focusing more on content delivery than improving on what's already there. It's not a terrible decision from a business perspective, but it's definitely discouraging for players if they feel like their concerns are ignored. And sure, some of the issues addressed time and again have been in need of love for a long amount of time, please don't think I'm blindly defending all of their decisions. However I think the vast majority of their developers want to fix the bugs as much as we want them to be fixed. It's just not a productive use of time to get the art team to try to fix the lag in Cyrodiil. :P
I have to agree with this. In almost all MMO’s “Content is King”. Many gamers have the attention span of two or three months at most, and if you don’t keep them entertained, they will just go to another game that does. That’s one of the reasons ZOS throws in a special event once in awhile between updates, to keep us busy. Sure, I would like to see ZOS spend more time on bugs and QOL stuff we have been begging for (Guild structure, housing, UI improvements, the list goes on......), but they have to keep their shareholders happy with new players as well as keeping some of the old. Although I would have to say they haven’t done a stellar job of the latter considering some of the unwanted balance changes they have made recently.
Don't forget one little thing: if an MMO doesn't have new content, it's dead. One or two updates in a year definitely means "this game is starting to die, we don't even make anything for the players since there are almost none". Just look at the MMOs in maintenance mode...
While the fixes for bugs are important, it has to be done in balance with the new content. Different people are working on different aspects of an MMO, but the same people are fixing bugs in a particular system that are working on new things. Like the team which is making the new dungeons' mobs and bosses are responsible for the bugfixing of the existing dungeons' population too. Bugs are annoying, I agree with that - however fixing bugs and sacrificing new shinies for that is generally a bad idea. (yes, it's the same bad idea if a team is just pushing new shinies out and doeesn't bother to fix the old ones' problems)
There are so many difficult acheivments every time they release new dungeons and trials that I'm still working on ones from a year ago. They just keep releasing more and myself and other players will never be able to catch up with the difficulty level of some of the acheivments. There's enough content at this point to take a break to fix bugs and issues
Maybe that's enough for you and your friends. But it's absolutely not guaranteed that it's enough for the majority of the playerbase. I'm quite sure there are many players who will never try to get the hardest achievements for different reasons, and they need something to do too.
Well if they aren't going for the acheivments then two new dungeons will provide a couple hours max of play-time so what's the point even? I'm not sure I follow your argument.
They have the new levelling rewards: crown crates, costumes, housing coffer. They have a new home in Coldharbour. They have the outfits, and the housing storage. That's content too, and more than a couple of hours...
A box to put things in isn't "content" imo and neither is the outfit system in my opinion. Storage shouldve been a housing feature day 1 and the outfit system is a cosmetic enhancement system. Its not something you 'play' or 'complete'. Homes also require you to spend more money to even get to decorate them.
ESO DLCs are never large in terms of hours of content unless you're working towards the difficult acheivments. Those of us that are doing that feel as if we are being left behind with so much content that'll never be completed at this point.
The game will not be better off to keep pumping out content at the current rate while taking 3 months to fix bugs. It's unsustainable. Eventually all the spaghetti code will get too tangled.
I've played many MMOs over the years, and I'm sure that the players who are working to reach the hardest achievements are always a minority of the complete playerbase, never more than 10% - however they tend to be one of the loudest group on the forum/Twitter/live streams etc. They also rarely understand that everything is content which requires any kind of farming to get, be it a new player house or getting a desired outfit (in ESO's case that means grabbing the required motif).
I know that I will spend most of my in-game time exploring, collecting things I want to grab and I will care more about the levelling rewards than any of the dungeons. I also know that I'm still not belong to the majority of the players, so I don't want ZOS to accept my unique viewpoint about what is important and what is not. They have the numbers, they know which type of content is played by most of the players, which type is interesting for half os the playerbase and what makes tick only 10-15% - and they will make new things according to that data. So if they don't really change something that could mean two things: 1. it's harder to fix than it seems without broking something else (or they don't have a great idea how to do it); 2. it affects too few players, so it's lower on the priority list.
Ah yes I'm such a jerk for trying to get ZoS to accept my "unique viewpoint" that they should fix the bugs and performance issues with the game in a reasonable amount of time.
That's normal. Assuming that the most important content is the hardest dungeon can be a flawed viewpoint. Assuming that most players find PvP one of the most important aspect of the game can be a flawed viewpoint. Assuming that they don't want to fix the bugs and improve the performance is almost surely a flawed viewpoint.
They don't get points for wanting to fix the bugs they need to actually do it. Also MOST players aren't all going to play any content because there is so much to do in the game that the population is spread out. Your argument of "well we should only fix stuff most players care about" is ridiculous. Just becsuse most people don't find PvP to be important we should tolerate Cyrodiil performing like ****? I can see why you don't care about any thing like people crashing and having low dungeons in trials, dungeons, and Cyrodiil if you are just a roleplayer who runs around and does quests and collecting things you want to grab. Well there are alot of us who actually care about PvP and end-game content and many of us pay $15 a month for the game so it actually should be fixed and the infrastructure should be upgraded. It's just that simple.
I'm saying the Cyrodiil performance problems would have been already fixed if it was easy to do that. I'm saying if a problem affects the daily routine of more than 50% of the playerbase, it should be fixed as soon as possible. I'm saying the importance of a bug shouldn't be decided based on the forum. You are right, I don't care about PvP or end-game raiding, but I still pay the same €13 as you, therefore I don't really see why you should be prioritized (except if you are a highly qualified tester with great experience in software Q&A or development, then I accept that you can have ideas which are better than my thoughts).
Plus it's definitely harder to patch a problem on consoles, since the patch should be approved by Sony/Microsoft and they are very picky, sometimes ridiculously slow. So even if ZOS solves the problem on PC, it's still not sure that they can do the same for consoles too.
I and others like me should be prioritized because we just want our existing content fixed. The product is broken. You just want new content and care about cosmetics and other things while we can't PvP or raid without crashing or large fps drop. I'm not asking for new content I'm asking for a flawed product to be corrected that should always be a priority.3 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It's not about quantity over quality. I'd expect op is aware different teams work on different aspects of game he game. Plain and simple that's it.Apache_Kid wrote: »
Sry different issue that what OP's poll is about.
While there are some significant items that need attention. Namely lag in Cyrodiil. There isn't an MMORPG that doesn't have years old bugs that still exists.
A raid in a game I used to play has a game breaking, though very random, bug in HM if one of their raids. When the bug occurs it guarantees someone dies and often the raid wipes. It's never been fixed.0
