Qbiken wrote: »

The_Saint wrote: »

Atm you have 100% offbalance uptime on pts bosses. Because the cooldown never hits with the right setup. This and the new monsterset with ~3,6k+ singletarget dps (skelett) is a dk buff and not a nerf...

I´ve a feeling this is not intended.........

Jarryzzt wrote: »

The OP seems to be modestly overreacting.

1. Before one even gets to discussing the whip, MagDKs have at least three excellent class DoTs - Eruption, Burning Embers, Engulfing Flames - the last of which also buffs all outgoing flame damage viz. a specific enemy or a group of enemies. By comparison, MagBlades have two class DoTs available to them (but a spammable execute to make up for it), as do MagSorc's (not counting pets, but these take up a lot of bar space for any benefit they do provide). MagDens are...complicated, not the least since I do not know whether to classify Deep Fissure as a "fake" DoT. But they too do not enjoy an advantage over MagDKs in terms of the raw number of class damage layers.

The point is that among builds running destro staves, MagDKs have at least comparable damage layering capability, mutatis mutandis. And as can be readily seen, the DPS potential of any build in ESO is determined to a substantial degree by its ability to stack damage layers - in fact, if you check any build, for any class, on Alcast or wherever else, you can see that it works by making sure that the spammable is backed by 4-5 DoT layers and possibly some other things like set procs (especially for MagDKs with the Burning Spellweave set). Not to mention attack weaving, ultimates, et cetera. Which, in turn, means that the single-target spammable is only one of many factors that goes into determining whether a build is "PVE-viable", which seems to be the OP's hill to die on. [In fact, I would guess that in many high-end build parses the spammable accounts for "teens-percent" of total damage, if that.]

2. Looking at the baseline skill numbers on UESP for magicka-based spammables, one can immediately see that the raw damage numbers per cast are very similar, pretty much all of them falling somewhere in the 1800-1900 range. Obviously specific character setups will modify this number, however before considering any special properties of the whip vs. other magicka spammables it does not appear to be at any clear disadvantage. In fact, possibly the reverse since it has a "two-way" synergy with Engulfing Flames and Burning Embers - buffing both while benefiting from the EF debuff.

But by the same token, the OP's assertion that the whip is the only spammable option for MagDKs is flat out wrong. Force Pulse exists, and in terms of net damage it probably ends up only a little worse off (given destro line passives) but makes up for it by adding range and tactical flexibility to the build. This is what happens when all magicka spammables have roughly similar baseline damage. It's almost as if this occurred by design...

3. The statement "the only reason MagDK is viable in PVE anymore" prompts the counter question of what the OP means by "PVE". Overland? Hardly. A joke even. Veteran Maelstrom? Everybody dies there, more than once, and in any case that place is less about DPS than about survival. Veteran dungeons? Trials? I can't speak to what the magicka meta is for these, but surely more than a few experienced players successfully run MagDKs in this content.

Really, unless the OP's idea of PVE is soloing public dungeons while naked and at level 5 with a single skill on their bar, in which case MagBlades would, of course, have a clear advantage (their spammable heals them), it is very difficult to think of content that a well-played MagDK cannot do at the moment.

TLDR - what was that popular expression about little chickens? Or chicken littles? Assuming this isn't just a garden-variety trolling thread.

TheYKcid wrote: »

Gotta love the way @Jarryzzt throws out latin words and random facts in a vacuum while not having the slightest clue about the status of magDK in endgame PvE.

MagDK is already at the bottom of the barrel, and can barely sustain itself even with a near-100% offbalance uptime.

What happens when that uptime falls by over 70%? Go figure.

kjones0996 wrote: »

My main is a MagDK. The other DPS in my group is a magsorc that consistently keeps enemies off balance. Healer runs elemental drain. My sustain is fantastic when this is happening. I never have to heavy attack. On the flip side, when I’m pugging and nobody is helping me with constant off balance, I can go through my rotation once, maybe twice before I have to heavy attack several times. That’s with 40.5k magic but no witch mothers or steal magic poisons. That being said, stacking eruption, ele wall, burning embers, and Engulfing flame puts out some pretty solid dps if you can keep renewing them consistently.

Jarryzzt wrote: »

The OP seems to be modestly overreacting.

1. Before one even gets to discussing the whip, MagDKs have at least three excellent class DoTs - Eruption, Burning Embers, Engulfing Flames - the last of which also buffs all outgoing flame damage viz. a specific enemy or a group of enemies. By comparison, MagBlades have two class DoTs available to them (but a spammable execute to make up for it), as do MagSorc's (not counting pets, but these take up a lot of bar space for any benefit they do provide). MagDens are...complicated, not the least since I do not know whether to classify Deep Fissure as a "fake" DoT. But they too do not enjoy an advantage over MagDKs in terms of the raw number of class damage layers.

The point is that among builds running destro staves, MagDKs have at least comparable damage layering capability, mutatis mutandis. And as can be readily seen, the DPS potential of any build in ESO is determined to a substantial degree by its ability to stack damage layers - in fact, if you check any build, for any class, on Alcast or wherever else, you can see that it works by making sure that the spammable is backed by 4-5 DoT layers and possibly some other things like set procs (especially for MagDKs with the Burning Spellweave set). Not to mention attack weaving, ultimates, et cetera. Which, in turn, means that the single-target spammable is only one of many factors that goes into determining whether a build is "PVE-viable", which seems to be the OP's hill to die on. [In fact, I would guess that in many high-end build parses the spammable accounts for "teens-percent" of total damage, if that.]

2. Looking at the baseline skill numbers on UESP for magicka-based spammables, one can immediately see that the raw damage numbers per cast are very similar, pretty much all of them falling somewhere in the 1800-1900 range. Obviously specific character setups will modify this number, however before considering any special properties of the whip vs. other magicka spammables it does not appear to be at any clear disadvantage. In fact, possibly the reverse since it has a "two-way" synergy with Engulfing Flames and Burning Embers - buffing both while benefiting from the EF debuff.

But by the same token, the OP's assertion that the whip is the only spammable option for MagDKs is flat out wrong. Force Pulse exists, and in terms of net damage it probably ends up only a little worse off (given destro line passives) but makes up for it by adding range and tactical flexibility to the build. This is what happens when all magicka spammables have roughly similar baseline damage. It's almost as if this occurred by design...

3. The statement "the only reason MagDK is viable in PVE anymore" prompts the counter question of what the OP means by "PVE". Overland? Hardly. A joke even. Veteran Maelstrom? Everybody dies there, more than once, and in any case that place is less about DPS than about survival. Veteran dungeons? Trials? I can't speak to what the magicka meta is for these, but surely more than a few experienced players successfully run MagDKs in this content.

Really, unless the OP's idea of PVE is soloing public dungeons while naked and at level 5 with a single skill on their bar, in which case MagBlades would, of course, have a clear advantage (their spammable heals them), it is very difficult to think of content that a well-played MagDK cannot do at the moment.

TLDR - what was that popular expression about little chickens? Or chicken littles? Assuming this isn't just a garden-variety trolling thread.

Voxicity wrote: »

Shad0wfire99 wrote: »

Voxicity wrote: »

Jarryzzt wrote: »

The OP seems to be modestly overreacting.

1. Before one even gets to discussing the whip, MagDKs have at least three excellent class DoTs - Eruption, Burning Embers, Engulfing Flames - the last of which also buffs all outgoing flame damage viz. a specific enemy or a group of enemies. By comparison, MagBlades have two class DoTs available to them (but a spammable execute to make up for it), as do MagSorc's (not counting pets, but these take up a lot of bar space for any benefit they do provide). MagDens are...complicated, not the least since I do not know whether to classify Deep Fissure as a "fake" DoT. But they too do not enjoy an advantage over MagDKs in terms of the raw number of class damage layers.

The point is that among builds running destro staves, MagDKs have at least comparable damage layering capability, mutatis mutandis. And as can be readily seen, the DPS potential of any build in ESO is determined to a substantial degree by its ability to stack damage layers - in fact, if you check any build, for any class, on Alcast or wherever else, you can see that it works by making sure that the spammable is backed by 4-5 DoT layers and possibly some other things like set procs (especially for MagDKs with the Burning Spellweave set). Not to mention attack weaving, ultimates, et cetera. Which, in turn, means that the single-target spammable is only one of many factors that goes into determining whether a build is "PVE-viable", which seems to be the OP's hill to die on. [In fact, I would guess that in many high-end build parses the spammable accounts for "teens-percent" of total damage, if that.]

2. Looking at the baseline skill numbers on UESP for magicka-based spammables, one can immediately see that the raw damage numbers per cast are very similar, pretty much all of them falling somewhere in the 1800-1900 range. Obviously specific character setups will modify this number, however before considering any special properties of the whip vs. other magicka spammables it does not appear to be at any clear disadvantage. In fact, possibly the reverse since it has a "two-way" synergy with Engulfing Flames and Burning Embers - buffing both while benefiting from the EF debuff.

But by the same token, the OP's assertion that the whip is the only spammable option for MagDKs is flat out wrong. Force Pulse exists, and in terms of net damage it probably ends up only a little worse off (given destro line passives) but makes up for it by adding range and tactical flexibility to the build. This is what happens when all magicka spammables have roughly similar baseline damage. It's almost as if this occurred by design...

3. The statement "the only reason MagDK is viable in PVE anymore" prompts the counter question of what the OP means by "PVE". Overland? Hardly. A joke even. Veteran Maelstrom? Everybody dies there, more than once, and in any case that place is less about DPS than about survival. Veteran dungeons? Trials? I can't speak to what the magicka meta is for these, but surely more than a few experienced players successfully run MagDKs in this content.

Really, unless the OP's idea of PVE is soloing public dungeons while naked and at level 5 with a single skill on their bar, in which case MagBlades would, of course, have a clear advantage (their spammable heals them), it is very difficult to think of content that a well-played MagDK cannot do at the moment.

TLDR - what was that popular expression about little chickens? Or chicken littles? Assuming this isn't just a garden-variety trolling thread.

Not to be rude, but your comment has no substance and pretty much just seems to be you excusing ZOS's decisions of pushing the off balance reliance.

I mean what's the point in running force pulse as a spammable when you have to be at melee range to apply some of your dots anyway? I dont feel like dancing around the boss fight whereas other classes can stay still and perform their rotation. And I don't wanna be hitting the boss with force pulse from melee range either, that'd be like sniping a boss from 1 metre away

I dont see any reason whatsover that magicka dk shouldn't be able to use it's class spammable ability in PvE.

"I don't feel like it" will end up being the reason you're not viable, not the off-balance changes.

I am viable and the class is viable for most content, at least the content I do. But that doesn't excuse the weird design choice for the class to rely on off balance. I still play magdk though