The Consequences of Costumes
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zaria✭✭✭✭✭
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Note that WOW has an totally different model, at least then I played you had tired sets, each class had one Pve and one PvP set in the tire, you got better sets by doing harder content or grind the level below. not like ESO who has lots of sets for different uses, you only know who sets players have if it has visible proc, in group you see group effects like ebon or group proc like SPC.DeadlyRecluse wrote: »The only thing I want less than new players being restricted to simple/basic looking armor is to be restricted to fancy looking armor as an experienced player.Degradation of Player Progress
A max level champion is desired for their passive stat bonuses and powers. This is reflected via a flat champion level in Elder Scrolls Online, rather than the nonlinear progression of novice to advanced gear sets. This is one of the main reasons for intensified calls for the rebirth of Vanilla (Classic) World of Warcraft. Player progress was cleverly defined by unique gear sets at max level, but not so clearly defined as to systematically rank and exclude players based on a champion number.
Oooooh you want a gear grind. No thanks.
Monster sets is the exception however they can also be bought from the golden.Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.0 -
KanedaSyndrome✭✭✭✭OP has a point. I personally like costumes, and I know it ruins this aspect of the game, but that's how it is. But your points are valid and I agree with you conclusion.Edited by KanedaSyndrome on January 5, 2018 8:33PMKanedaSyndrome's Suggestions For Game Improvements
The Fortuitous Collapse of the Wave Equation
The Best Plans Require No Action1 -
StormIV✭
Note that WOW has an totally different model, at least then I played you had tired sets, each class had one Pve and one PvP set in the tire, you got better sets by doing harder content or grind the level below. not like ESO who has lots of sets for different uses, you only know who sets players have if it has visible proc, in group you see group effects like ebon or group proc like SPC.DeadlyRecluse wrote: »The only thing I want less than new players being restricted to simple/basic looking armor is to be restricted to fancy looking armor as an experienced player.Degradation of Player Progress
A max level champion is desired for their passive stat bonuses and powers. This is reflected via a flat champion level in Elder Scrolls Online, rather than the nonlinear progression of novice to advanced gear sets. This is one of the main reasons for intensified calls for the rebirth of Vanilla (Classic) World of Warcraft. Player progress was cleverly defined by unique gear sets at max level, but not so clearly defined as to systematically rank and exclude players based on a champion number.
Oooooh you want a gear grind. No thanks.
Monster sets is the exception however they can also be bought from the golden.
You are right and thank you for pointing this out. It is a different system. However World of Warcraft is widely considered the genre-defining game. I am not looking to change either gear system per se, rather I would like to educate the player base to the consequences of these costume and transmogrification systems.
Edited by StormIV on January 5, 2018 8:45PM0 -
Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So i watched the stream and apparently you will be able to make a sword look like an axe or a dagger look like a hammer - because they are all one-handed weapon.
What kind of sense does it make ?!
Same for armour types - heavy can look like light, medium etc.
I can understand this because it is only an aesthetic and all of us want their characters to look the best - the way we want them to look like... so as far as PvE goes - it is something good.
But I can already tell that those cheesy builds in pvp will be even more cheesy.... imagine you fight against player who is using dual wielding daggers but in reality those will be axes so you will have no clue that player you are fighting against has 8% chance to apply bleed dmg to you every light attack.
Another proof that PvP and PvE should balanced separately...1 -
StormIV✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »So i watched the stream and apparently you will be able to make a sword look like an axe or a dagger look like a hammer - because they are all one-handed weapon.
What kind of sense does it make ?!
Same for armour types - heavy can look like light, medium etc.
I can understand this because it is only an aesthetic and all of us want their characters to look the best - the way we want them to look like... so as far as PvE goes - it is something good.
But I can already tell that those cheesy builds in pvp will be even more cheesy.... imagine you fight against player who is using dual wielding daggers but in reality those will be axes so you will have no clue that player you are fighting against has 8% chance to apply bleed dmg to you every light attack.
Another proof that PvP and PvE should balanced separately...
THIS is my point. You have to look at the bigger picture.Edited by StormIV on January 5, 2018 8:48PM0 -
SydneyGrey✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So ... you're one of those people who want to force people to show their ugly monster shoulders, or their ugly mismatched armor sets, just because YOU think people shouldn't be allowed to cover up their armor? How about mind your own business and let other people play their way.
Also, you didn't mention polymorphs. People can still cover up their armor with a polymorph. I guess you want us to stop using those, too.
Edited by SydneyGrey on January 5, 2018 8:57PM3 -
milesrodneymcneely2_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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We get it. You're status-obsessed.Aedan wrote:Early on, I saw the roadmap ahead. A newly established adventurer, I yearned to be counted among the strongest of champions, like that of King Emeric and his royal guard. After defeating countless foes, I became one of the strongest fighters in all the realm. Yet as I roamed the wilds, my comrades did not fear me - for I appeared just as those who were untested in the trials of Tamriel. I am unable to identify the strength of my foes until the first blow. Name alone sets me apart from my rivals.
These are the consequences of a costume system that does not reflect player progress and class.
Positive Identification
Costumes are great, until everyone is wearing the same costume as you. And for what reason? Clothes in modern times are a form of self expression, but in a game inspired by medieval customs, they serve to identify rank, nobility, or wealth. A level 1 character should not look like King Emeric, and vice versa.
Indistinguishable player classes.
In player versus player (PvP) battles, understanding your foe puts you a step ahead. Consider these steps: Evaluate. Prepare. Engage. Players need a system to calculate opponents' strengths and weaknesses and then prepare for engagement. Imagery in the form of gear styles and sets is the foremost visual aid, for it is actually easier to batch process mentally than listed class icons and levels. When is the last time you were able to quickly identify the composition of a large (20+) group in Cyrodil?
Degradation of Player Progress
A max level champion is desired for their passive stat bonuses and powers. This is reflected via a flat champion level in Elder Scrolls Online, rather than the nonlinear progression of novice to advanced gear sets. This is one of the main reasons for intensified calls for the rebirth of Vanilla (Classic) World of Warcraft. Player progress was cleverly defined by unique gear sets at max level, but not so clearly defined as to systematically rank and exclude players based on a champion number.
Nothing Worthwhile is Ever Easy
The mightiest sorcerer in the realm should look the part. Players desire measured progress, with more intricate systems than flat numbers. Purchasing an outfit is neither hard nor fun. A player should be able to look back and say look how far I have come and broadcast that to their fellow players. Developers know this, which is why consistently MMORPGs (Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games) release without a costume system, until the developers unintentionally destroy it, hungry for cosmetic revenue and catering to the wishes of the freshman class’ call for a costume simulator.6 -
StormIV✭SydneyGrey wrote: »So ... you're one of those people who want to force people to show their ugly monster shoulders, or their ugly mismatched armor sets, just because YOU think people shouldn't be allowed to cover up their armor? How about mind your own business and let other people play their way.
Also, you didn't mention polymorphs. People can still cover up their armor with a polymorph. I guess you want us to stop using those, too.
Quoting is great because it certifies that what you are saying is not baseless. Unfortunately for you, you did not quote me because what you are saying is baseless. Ugly and mismatched sets is part of the problem here. Patching over them with costumes does not solve the problem, it only creates more holes in the game. People are welcome to play any which way they choose, once again baseless. I didn't mention poly-morphs because the system is tested, fine, and has no unintended consequences that I can see. This forum is an opinion simulator so please, respect mine just like I respect yours.0 -
r3turn2s3nd3r✭✭✭✭✭Indistinguishable player classes.
In player versus player (PvP) battles, understanding your foe puts you a step ahead.
And deceiving your foe can put you equally or even further ahead. One person's 'negative' is another's 'positive'. It is an alliance war, and there's really not a whole lot of rules when it comes to war. And even the 'rules' that are there are regularly ignored.Players need a system to calculate opponents' strengths and weaknesses and then prepare for engagement.
Pretty much every single war in all the history of mankind has involved deceiving the enemy in some way by hiding weaknesses and/or bluffing strengths. See World War II - Operation Bodyguard / Fortitude / Quicksilver
How you well you adapt when your 'intelligence' turns out to be incorrect is all that really matters.1 -
Rickter✭✭✭✭✭
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Costumes are great, until everyone is wearing the same costume as you. And for what reason? Clothes in modern times are a form of self expression
Except this happened after suicide squad hit:
RickterESO
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rhapsodious✭✭✭✭✭
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I didn't mention poly-morphs because the system is tested, fine, and has no unintended consequences that I can see. This forum is an opinion simulator so please, respect mine just like I respect yours.SydneyGrey wrote: »So ... you're one of those people who want to force people to show their ugly monster shoulders, or their ugly mismatched armor sets, just because YOU think people shouldn't be allowed to cover up their armor? How about mind your own business and let other people play their way.
Also, you didn't mention polymorphs. People can still cover up their armor with a polymorph. I guess you want us to stop using those, too.
Your stance is contradictory. You say that polymorphs are fine, but they present the same issues you outline in your OP. You can look exactly like anyone else with the polymorph - even moreso than costumes! - several of the polymorphs are CS only so there's no progress tied to them, and you certainly can't tell what class a skeleton is or what gear they're using.
I'm confused as to how polymorphs can be fine with the reasons you gave for costumes/outfits being flawed.Edited by rhapsodious on January 5, 2018 9:11PM3 -
StormIV✭r3turn2s3nd3r wrote: »Indistinguishable player classes.
In player versus player (PvP) battles, understanding your foe puts you a step ahead.
And deceiving your foe can put you equally or even further ahead. One person's 'negative' is another's 'positive'. It is an alliance war, and there's really not a whole lot of rules when it comes to war. And even the 'rules' that are there are regularly ignored.Players need a system to calculate opponents' strengths and weaknesses and then prepare for engagement.
Pretty much every single war in all the history of mankind has involved deceiving the enemy in some way by hiding weaknesses and/or bluffing strengths. See World War II - Operation Bodyguard / Fortitude / Quicksilver
How you well you adapt when your 'intelligence' turns out to be incorrect is all that really matters.
While deception is important, what I believe you are missing here is the precursor to deception. In order to have deception you must first have perception followed by a breaking of the perceived norms. We are experiencing the degragation of perception, and the destruction of norms, which makes deception unending and not fun, as I touched on in the OP.0 -
LukosCreyden✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭What a truly bizarre complaint to have. Several years too late, too; seeming as we have had costumes which hide armor for several years and nobody I have seen have complained about the gameplay ramifications. Oh well, this is the ESO forums, people always find something to complain about. At least this particular complaint is somewhat creative.Struggling to find a new class to call home.Please send help.1 -
StormIV✭rhapsodious wrote: »I'm confused as to how polymorphs can be fine with the reasons you gave for costumes/outfits being flawed.
Poly-morphs and costumes function differently. One is supported by game lore, temporary, and tied to a specific achievement or quest, while the other is not grounded in game lore.0 -
Axoinus✭✭✭✭✭I think it's funny that people with ultra-rate loot think that newbies are aware and envious of their loot.
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StormIV✭LukosCreyden wrote: »What a truly bizarre complaint to have. Several years too late, too; seeming as we have had costumes which hide armor for several years and nobody I have seen have complained about the gameplay ramifications. Oh well, this is the ESO forums, people always find something to complain about. At least this particular complaint is somewhat creative.
Costumes are a new phenomenon, established in the genre in around 2012. Now is the perfect time discuss it, considering we can see consistent consequences across the genre and the transmogrification will only exacerbate them here in Elder Scrolls Online.0 -
Minyassa✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭In LOTRO, cosmetic costumes are disabled on the PvP server. They might end up having to do something like that for PvP zones.1 -
Oakmontowls_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Costumes are perfectly supported in the lore with illusion magic. Obviously costumes are actually a sort of glamour spell that gives the appearance of and outfit with the stats and qualities of armor.
As for balance issues you have basically called them irrelevant by saying that poly morphs are fine since they do the same thing in terms of hiding what you are wearing. If you had instead decided to call out the new outfit system for allowing you to disguise weapons, which is an entirely new issue, you might have had some grounds for your argument.2 -
Rosveen✭✭✭✭✭
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So, uh... Which one is tied to quests and achievements, considering they're both sold in the crown store? And what exactly does "grounded in game lore" mean?rhapsodious wrote: »I'm confused as to how polymorphs can be fine with the reasons you gave for costumes/outfits being flawed.
Poly-morphs and costumes function differently. One is supported by game lore, temporary, and tied to a specific achievement or quest, while the other is not grounded in game lore.1 -
rhapsodious✭✭✭✭✭
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So, uh... Which one is tied to quests and achievements, considering they're both sold in the crown store? And what exactly does "grounded in game lore" mean?rhapsodious wrote: »I'm confused as to how polymorphs can be fine with the reasons you gave for costumes/outfits being flawed.
Poly-morphs and costumes function differently. One is supported by game lore, temporary, and tied to a specific achievement or quest, while the other is not grounded in game lore.
And you can get both through achievements and quests... DB/TG costumes, Wrothgar pack, Sixth House robe, Scarlet Judge for costumes, and Maelstrom Baron, Cadaverous Assassin and Skeleton for polymorphs. (As examples, not a comprehensive list.)
Edited by rhapsodious on January 5, 2018 9:51PM0 -
LyndwurmSoul ShrivenSorry, this n00b busted his tail to finish Dark Brotherhood for the Robe Costume and it's my favorite and I wear it with pride. Personally, I love the costume system. I hate looking like garbage with mixed armor being relatively new to the game.3
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zaria✭✭✭✭✭
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How? my Oblivion mage wore lower class clothing, made sense always in dirty places. Clothing because of illusion spells, command creature tended to make goblin warlords permanently hostile to goblins and had some entertainment value.rhapsodious wrote: »I'm confused as to how polymorphs can be fine with the reasons you gave for costumes/outfits being flawed.
Poly-morphs and costumes function differently. One is supported by game lore, temporary, and tied to a specific achievement or quest, while the other is not grounded in game lore.
Sheogorat would not follow you trough the butterfly gate to cyrodil, this was disappointing.
yes she treated an daeric prince as an plaything. She had an dagger who could kill the gatekeeper in 10 hits but it was an fallback weapon. Skyrim with forsworn gear or fur bikini backstabbing dragons.
Edited by zaria on January 5, 2018 9:57PMGrinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.1 -
magictucktuck✭✭✭✭✭Gear is probably the last thing i notice to identify a class, in this game you have to constantly apply buffs while roaming to be prepaired and if u arnt you can spot they are a easy kill ( or be tricked) but if you dont instantly know what kind of spec your fighting just by them walking up to you, you probably just need to learn a little more about the game, but i can tell before we engage just by how they are buffing up.
EDIT: well not that you need to learn more but maybe i know to much lol. but my point is you can easily spot spec and it has nothing to do with gear.Edited by magictucktuck on January 5, 2018 10:03PM1 -
emilyhyoyeon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Costumes are just essentially either clothing or armor, both of which are not inherently lore unfriendly hello?IGN @ emilypumpkin, imperial pumpkin seller
Tullanisse Starborne, altmer battlemage & scholar of the ayleids
Qa'Rirra, khajiit assassin & dancer
Seliwequen Narilata, altmer necromancer & debaucher0 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
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Note that WOW has an totally different model, at least then I played you had tired sets, each class had one Pve and one PvP set in the tire, you got better sets by doing harder content or grind the level below. not like ESO who has lots of sets for different uses, you only know who sets players have if it has visible proc, in group you see group effects like ebon or group proc like SPC.DeadlyRecluse wrote: »The only thing I want less than new players being restricted to simple/basic looking armor is to be restricted to fancy looking armor as an experienced player.Degradation of Player Progress
A max level champion is desired for their passive stat bonuses and powers. This is reflected via a flat champion level in Elder Scrolls Online, rather than the nonlinear progression of novice to advanced gear sets. This is one of the main reasons for intensified calls for the rebirth of Vanilla (Classic) World of Warcraft. Player progress was cleverly defined by unique gear sets at max level, but not so clearly defined as to systematically rank and exclude players based on a champion number.
Oooooh you want a gear grind. No thanks.
Monster sets is the exception however they can also be bought from the golden.
You are right and thank you for pointing this out. It is a different system. However World of Warcraft is widely considered the genre-defining game. I am not looking to change either gear system per se, rather I would like to educate the player base to the consequences of these costume and transmogrification systems.
world of warcraft also implemented, realizing that people like to personalize their looks - a transmog system couple of expansions ago. so tier doesn't mean much in that game either, unless you like the look of it. they did implement specific transmog looks for getting to certain milestones, but we also have that in ESO. milestone costumes for CP. milestone costume for emperor - story completion costumes. dyes that are achievement specific (and recognizable as such, if one so wishes). and the one most people use when they want to show off their progress in the game - skins and titles.
oh and with plethora of available looks in WoW - people absolutely do change their looks to something that does not necessarily illustrate their class. in that game, you also recognize what someone is - based on abilities they use, NOT their appearance.Edited by Linaleah on January 5, 2018 10:55PMdirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***0 -
SydneyGrey✭✭✭✭✭
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When your opinion affects MY gameplay, then yes, I will have an issue with it. Basically you just want to be able to tell whether people are wearing light or heavy armor at a glance in PvP. Why do you need to know that? You can tell at a glance if they're carrying a staff already, and you know that staves mean magic users. Plus, your idea that polymorphs are ok but costumes are not is just baffling.This forum is an opinion simulator so please, respect mine just like I respect yours.
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