The Consequences of Costumes

StormIV · January 2018

Aedan wrote:

Early on, I saw the roadmap ahead. A newly established adventurer, I yearned to be counted among the strongest of champions, like that of King Emeric and his royal guard. After defeating countless foes, I became one of the strongest fighters in all the realm. Yet as I roamed the wilds, my comrades did not fear me - for I appeared just as those who were untested in the trials of Tamriel. I am unable to identify the strength of my foes until the first blow. Name alone sets me apart from my rivals.

These are the consequences of a costume system that does not reflect player progress and class.

Positive Identification
Costumes are great, until everyone is wearing the same costume as you. And for what reason? Clothes in modern times are a form of self expression, but in a game inspired by medieval customs, they serve to identify rank, nobility, or wealth. A level 1 character should not look like King Emeric, and vice versa.

Indistinguishable player classes.
In player versus player (PvP) battles, understanding your foe puts you a step ahead. Consider these steps: Evaluate. Prepare. Engage. Players need a system to calculate opponents' strengths and weaknesses and then prepare for engagement. Imagery in the form of gear styles and sets is the foremost visual aid, for it is actually easier to batch process mentally than listed class icons and levels. When is the last time you were able to quickly identify the composition of a large (20+) group in Cyrodil?

Degradation of Player Progress
A max level champion is desired for their passive stat bonuses and powers. This is reflected via a flat champion level in Elder Scrolls Online, rather than the nonlinear progression of novice to advanced gear sets. This is one of the main reasons for intensified calls for the rebirth of Vanilla (Classic) World of Warcraft. Player progress was cleverly defined by unique gear sets at max level, but not so clearly defined as to systematically rank and exclude players based on a champion number.

Nothing Worthwhile is Ever Easy
The mightiest sorcerer in the realm should look the part. Players desire measured progress, with more intricate systems than flat numbers. Purchasing an outfit is neither hard nor fun. A player should be able to look back and say look how far I have come and broadcast that to their fellow players. Developers know this, which is why consistently MMORPGs (Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games) release without a costume system, until the developers unintentionally destroy it, hungry for cosmetic revenue and catering to the wishes of the freshman class’ call for a costume simulator.

DieAlteHexe · January 2018

And here's me, just wanting to not look like an idiot.

How shallow of me.

pauli133 · January 2018

I am much more interested in making my characters look exactly the way I want them to than I am in satisfying any of your above desires to identify other players in various specific ways.

rhapsodious · January 2018

If I have a zerg of 20 people coming at me, I'm looking for weapon and ability effects more than what they're wearing.

Remember when every DPS and their brother was running Grothdarr and Burning Spellweave in Homestead and looked like this?

I remember.

Rohamad_Ali · January 2018

This is too long to be a troll post but it feels like a troll post ... I'm going with my gut and pulling the string here .

StormIV · January 2018

pauli133 wrote: »

I am much more interested in making my characters look exactly the way I want them to than I am in satisfying any of your above desires to identify other players in various specific ways.

Nowhere did I say costumes are bad. I am only hoping to educate everyone of the negative side effects.

Danikat · January 2018

If you want to wear the rarest/most expensive equipment in the game and imagine that anyone around you has noticed, let alone cares, then no one is going to stop you.

But I actually think the addition of outfits will allow players to make better looking combinations, and maybe ones that look more impressive too. At the moment even if you use crafted gear (and therefore have all the motifs to choose from) you're restricted to a tiny selection of the overall range of gear. If you use dropped gear, especially things like monster helms, it's even more limited. Either you use whatever has the best stats and run the risk of it looking like a jumbled mess or you tailor everything to the pieces that can't be changed.

With outfits you can tailor everything to whatever style you want, without having to sacrifice your stats. Which opens up a lot more possibilities for each player to create a look that's not only coordinated but also less likely to be repeated, because there's far more options to choose from.

coop500 · January 2018

And the mounts/costumes in the crown store doesn't already cause this?

DieAlteHexe · January 2018

StormIV wrote: »

pauli133 wrote: »

I am much more interested in making my characters look exactly the way I want them to than I am in satisfying any of your above desires to identify other players in various specific ways.

Nowhere did I say costumes are bad. I am only hoping to educate everyone of the negative side effects.

Well, I'm not so sure that some of what you listed IS negative. But y'know what? It's a warm evening (oddly enough, windows open, breeze in January!) and I'm not in the mood to bicker so I think I'll log in and continue to take my might mage through her paces in her Nordic Knot doublet and her fibonaccus hat.

Hah! Fooled everyone, me.

Carthalion · January 2018

There is the title system if you care to recognize it. Granted some titles can also be misleading or not a true measure of a player's skill, class, or resources.

Gandalf the Grey was a very powerful wizard but he looked as ordinary as anyone wearing a grey robe that liked to smoke a pipe.

Aren't some vanity items only attainable after you complete end game stuff? I remember reading some thread that they saw sorcs w/distinct colored floating globes which meant they did something significant.

I see your perspective on costumes.

From my experience I've noticed the more seasoned players w/the higher CP's tend to dress like they're wearing practically nothing or try to be as ordinary as possible to stand out, by not standing out.

Rohamad_Ali · January 2018

rhapsodious wrote: »

If I have a zerg of 20 people coming at me, I'm looking for weapon and ability effects more than what they're wearing.

Remember when every DPS and their brother was running Grothdarr and Burning Spellweave in Homestead and looked like this?

I remember.

No . In fact I can't ever remember a time since launch we're majority wear monster sets in open view . Especially Grothdar . So ugly .

Linaleah · January 2018

coop500 wrote: »

And the mounts/costumes in the crown store doesn't already cause this?

this basically. at least most people I play with, are hiding their actual gear already and have been for a long time. and its not like you can change a type of weapon to look like another type of weapon. if you are using a bow, you cannot make it look like a staff. although its not like that helps either, since every class can use every weapon

the only way to tell one class from another for AGES, has been looking at abilities they use and in that animation canceling is a MUCH bigger problem with that as it, you guessed it! cancels animations so often times, you can only tell what abilities are being used by looking at your combat log. I think I remember reading though that they are fixing it so that animations themselves still play out instead of making your character look like they have a seizure? maybe... but that's maybe future patch sometime.

Didgerion · January 2018

Not a problem at all see my inlines

StormIV wrote: »

Aedan wrote:

Early on, I saw the roadmap ahead. A newly established adventurer, I yearned to be counted among the strongest of champions, like that of King Emeric and his royal guard. After defeating countless foes, I became one of the strongest fighters in all the realm. Yet as I roamed the wilds, my comrades did not fear me - for I appeared just as those who were untested in the trials of Tamriel. I am unable to identify the strength of my foes until the first blow. Name alone sets me apart from my rivals.

These are the consequences of a costume system that does not reflect player progress and class.

Positive Identification
Costumes are great, until everyone is wearing the same costume as you. And for what reason? Clothes in modern times are a form of self expression, but in a game inspired by medieval customs, they serve to identify rank, nobility, or wealth. A level 1 character should not look like King Emeric, and vice versa.

It is not a character game - it is a player's game - if a player looks very cool then most probably he earned it somehow.
Even if he just bought it from crown store - he added to the game with it - contributed to support its growth.

StormIV wrote: »

Indistinguishable player classes.
In player versus player (PvP) battles, understanding your foe puts you a step ahead. Consider these steps: Evaluate. Prepare. Engage. Players need a system to calculate opponents' strengths and weaknesses and then prepare for engagement. Imagery in the form of gear styles and sets is the foremost visual aid, for it is actually easier to batch process mentally than listed class icons and levels. When is the last time you were able to quickly identify the composition of a large (20+) group in Cyrodil?

The encounters in PVP are very fast paced - you don't have time to examine the look of the opponent in order to deduct what you are fighting against.
But I assure you - it is very easy to understand what is the class and armor type of the opponent - you get it from the first 2-3 skills the player is casting.

StormIV wrote: »

Degradation of Player Progress
A max level champion is desired for their passive stat bonuses and powers. This is reflected via a flat champion level in Elder Scrolls Online, rather than the nonlinear progression of novice to advanced gear sets. This is one of the main reasons for intensified calls for the rebirth of Vanilla (Classic) World of Warcraft. Player progress was cleverly defined by unique gear sets at max level, but not so clearly defined as to systematically rank and exclude players based on a champion number.

But this model is not viable in a MMO

As the novice players would need to spend years of playtime in order to catch up the veterans.
You would have an MMO with just 10 players in it with such model - all veterans

StormIV wrote: »

Nothing Worthwhile is Ever Easy
The mightiest sorcerer in the realm should look the part. Players desire measured progress, with more intricate systems than flat numbers. Purchasing an outfit is neither hard nor fun. A player should be able to look back and say look how far I have come and broadcast that to their fellow players. Developers know this, which is why consistently MMORPGs (Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games) release without a costume system, until the developers unintentionally destroy it, hungry for cosmetic revenue and catering to the wishes of the freshman class’ call for a costume simulator.

There are 2 kind of players there:
- those that have fun - they enjoy content in a good company or solo.
- and those that are after progression (and the look is not the ultimate goal I assure you - maybe just a few dozen)

StormIV · January 2018

Didgerion wrote: »

StormIV wrote: »

Degradation of Player Progress
A max level champion is desired for their passive stat bonuses and powers. This is reflected via a flat champion level in Elder Scrolls Online, rather than the nonlinear progression of novice to advanced gear sets. This is one of the main reasons for intensified calls for the rebirth of Vanilla (Classic) World of Warcraft. Player progress was cleverly defined by unique gear sets at max level, but not so clearly defined as to systematically rank and exclude players based on a champion number.

But this model is not viable in a MMO

As the novice players would need to spend years of playtime in order to catch up the veterans.
You would have an MMO with just 10 players in it with such model - all veterans

Actually currently players have to spend year(s) reaching champion 690 which was my point. Jumping in after the fact and attaining a good gear set is always faster than grinding arbitrary numbers.

elantaura · January 2018

I don't care for transmog but get there are some that do.
I don't care as I wear costumes and have been wearing costumes in cyrodil for the longest time. Most I've played with have. as for rapidly identifying I don't look at what someone's wearing I look at the symbol next to there name I can recognise there rank. If I'm in stealth I can see that and there health number and decide if I want to engage. If it's a Zerg I'm just looking to avoid them. I'm not noticing a thing.

As for worth as a character - people look at titles More than clothes. I personally dislike that people treat me different most of the time. you will rarely catch me with stormproof on unless I've just got in a group and used it for that. Because I make more friends without it get prioritised in pvp and asked to duel more and I don't like duelling. But there are ways to measure worth beyond what you wear. And ways to hide it.
Transmog is not my thing but i don't think it's going to destroy the game.

Samadhi · January 2018

StormIV wrote: »

Aedan wrote:

Early on, I saw the roadmap ahead. A newly established adventurer, I yearned to be counted among the strongest of champions, like that of King Emeric and his royal guard. After defeating countless foes, I became one of the strongest fighters in all the realm. Yet as I roamed the wilds, my comrades did not fear me - for I appeared just as those who were untested in the trials of Tamriel. I am unable to identify the strength of my foes until the first blow. Name alone sets me apart from my rivals.

These are the consequences of a costume system that does not reflect player progress and class.

Positive Identification
Costumes are great, until everyone is wearing the same costume as you. And for what reason? Clothes in modern times are a form of self expression, but in a game inspired by medieval customs, they serve to identify rank, nobility, or wealth. A level 1 character should not look like King Emeric, and vice versa.
...

But the unproven child of a king receives better quality ceremonial garbs than the most skilled knight in the kingdom
and The Gray Fox shrouds his or her prestige hiding among the poor

StormIV wrote: »

...
Indistinguishable player classes.
In player versus player (PvP) battles, understanding your foe puts you a step ahead. Consider these steps: Evaluate. Prepare. Engage. Players need a system to calculate opponents' strengths and weaknesses and then prepare for engagement. Imagery in the form of gear styles and sets is the foremost visual aid, for it is actually easier to batch process mentally than listed class icons and levels. When is the last time you were able to quickly identify the composition of a large (20+) group in Cyrodil?
...

When driving through the city and being stopped at the rail crossing for a train
the length of the train begins to matter more than what individual cars are linked up between the engine and caboose

StormIV wrote: »

...
Degradation of Player Progress
A max level champion is desired for their passive stat bonuses and powers. This is reflected via a flat champion level in Elder Scrolls Online, rather than the nonlinear progression of novice to advanced gear sets. This is one of the main reasons for intensified calls for the rebirth of Vanilla (Classic) World of Warcraft. Player progress was cleverly defined by unique gear sets at max level, but not so clearly defined as to systematically rank and exclude players based on a champion number.

Nothing Worthwhile is Ever Easy
The mightiest sorcerer in the realm should look the part. Players desire measured progress, with more intricate systems than flat numbers. Purchasing an outfit is neither hard nor fun. A player should be able to look back and say look how far I have come and broadcast that to their fellow players. Developers know this, which is why consistently MMORPGs (Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games) release without a costume system, until the developers unintentionally destroy it, hungry for cosmetic revenue and catering to the wishes of the freshman class’ call for a costume simulator.

Nemesis7884 · January 2018

StormIV wrote: »

Aedan wrote:

Early on, I saw the roadmap ahead. A newly established adventurer, I yearned to be counted among the strongest of champions, like that of King Emeric and his royal guard. After defeating countless foes, I became one of the strongest fighters in all the realm. Yet as I roamed the wilds, my comrades did not fear me - for I appeared just as those who were untested in the trials of Tamriel. I am unable to identify the strength of my foes until the first blow. Name alone sets me apart from my rivals.

These are the consequences of a costume system that does not reflect player progress and class.

Positive Identification
Costumes are great, until everyone is wearing the same costume as you. And for what reason? Clothes in modern times are a form of self expression, but in a game inspired by medieval customs, they serve to identify rank, nobility, or wealth. A level 1 character should not look like King Emeric, and vice versa.

Indistinguishable player classes.
In player versus player (PvP) battles, understanding your foe puts you a step ahead. Consider these steps: Evaluate. Prepare. Engage. Players need a system to calculate opponents' strengths and weaknesses and then prepare for engagement. Imagery in the form of gear styles and sets is the foremost visual aid, for it is actually easier to batch process mentally than listed class icons and levels. When is the last time you were able to quickly identify the composition of a large (20+) group in Cyrodil?

Degradation of Player Progress
A max level champion is desired for their passive stat bonuses and powers. This is reflected via a flat champion level in Elder Scrolls Online, rather than the nonlinear progression of novice to advanced gear sets. This is one of the main reasons for intensified calls for the rebirth of Vanilla (Classic) World of Warcraft. Player progress was cleverly defined by unique gear sets at max level, but not so clearly defined as to systematically rank and exclude players based on a champion number.

Nothing Worthwhile is Ever Easy
The mightiest sorcerer in the realm should look the part. Players desire measured progress, with more intricate systems than flat numbers. Purchasing an outfit is neither hard nor fun. A player should be able to look back and say look how far I have come and broadcast that to their fellow players. Developers know this, which is why consistently MMORPGs (Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games) release without a costume system, until the developers unintentionally destroy it, hungry for cosmetic revenue and catering to the wishes of the freshman class’ call for a costume simulator.

maybe focus more on having fun and feeling good than looking for constant validation from others

danno8 · January 2018

Some (not all) of what you say I agree are a consequence of a cosmetic system. Some of it already exists in game due to costumes.

But the pluses of a cosmetic system that lets you choose your own look far outweigh the few negatives that may come with it.

zaria · January 2018

This is made irrelevant from launch with disguises, remember groups using it as uniform in pvp from months after launch.
Double invalid because of costumes, bath towel have been bis for tanks in years now.

tripple invalide because of crafted sets who can have any style and tend to take 4 slots+ weapon.

Waffennacht · January 2018

zaria wrote: »

This is made irrelevant from launch with disguises, remember groups using it as uniform in pvp from months after launch.
Double invalid because of costumes, bath towel have been bis for tanks in years now.

tripple invalide because of crafted sets who can have any style and tend to take 4 slots+ weapon.

Ty

Didgerion · January 2018

StormIV wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

StormIV wrote: »

Degradation of Player Progress
A max level champion is desired for their passive stat bonuses and powers. This is reflected via a flat champion level in Elder Scrolls Online, rather than the nonlinear progression of novice to advanced gear sets. This is one of the main reasons for intensified calls for the rebirth of Vanilla (Classic) World of Warcraft. Player progress was cleverly defined by unique gear sets at max level, but not so clearly defined as to systematically rank and exclude players based on a champion number.

But this model is not viable in a MMO

As the novice players would need to spend years of playtime in order to catch up the veterans.
You would have an MMO with just 10 players in it with such model - all veterans

Actually currently players have to spend year(s) reaching champion 690 which was my point. Jumping in after the fact and attaining a good gear set is always faster than grinding arbitrary numbers.

You really need only CP160 to equip the most OP gear in the game.
But don't rush it - with the enlightened system out there you will be CP690 in no time.
Also in becoming powerful gear comes first then CPs - players are pulling out insane burst and sustain in no CP campaigns - really 690 CPs won't make you much more stronger than 360 CPs for example (120 in each tree color).

AcadianPaladin · January 2018

Well, crotch flappers, shoulder wingies and hip flappers look atrocious. And don't get me started on helmet hair. . . .

So, yeah, costumes are a must.

Didgerion · January 2018

Didgerion wrote: »

StormIV wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

StormIV wrote: »

Degradation of Player Progress
A max level champion is desired for their passive stat bonuses and powers. This is reflected via a flat champion level in Elder Scrolls Online, rather than the nonlinear progression of novice to advanced gear sets. This is one of the main reasons for intensified calls for the rebirth of Vanilla (Classic) World of Warcraft. Player progress was cleverly defined by unique gear sets at max level, but not so clearly defined as to systematically rank and exclude players based on a champion number.

But this model is not viable in a MMO

As the novice players would need to spend years of playtime in order to catch up the veterans.
You would have an MMO with just 10 players in it with such model - all veterans

Actually currently players have to spend year(s) reaching champion 690 which was my point. Jumping in after the fact and attaining a good gear set is always faster than grinding arbitrary numbers.

You really need only CP160 to equip the most OP gear in the game.
But don't rush it - with the enlightened system out there you will be CP690 in no time.
Also in becoming powerful gear comes first then CPs - players are pulling out insane burst and sustain in no CP campaigns - really 690 CPs won't make you much more stronger than 360 CPs for example (120 in each tree color).

Also I've might misunderstood you paragraph - as you were talking costumes and you pulled some references I don't know about I thought the complain was that only veteran players should have the best look. My bad

But why mention CPs in a costume thread?

bellatrixed · January 2018

Most people want to make their character look the way they want instead of having a lazy and ultimately useless means to identify someone's class at a glance... sorry.

A game where every level/class has a certain pigeonholed look is a game I won't play.

Iccotak · January 2018

The reason the new outfit system is good is because many players constantly change the gear and set up they are wearing in the end game.
Different gear set ups suit different situations. PvE, PvP, Trials, Dungeons, etc.
BUT I have a look that I want to stick with. So being given the option to create my own costume/outfit that I can use no matter what gear I am using is great.

TheValar85 · January 2018

StormIV wrote: »

Aedan wrote:

Early on, I saw the roadmap ahead. A newly established adventurer, I yearned to be counted among the strongest of champions, like that of King Emeric and his royal guard. After defeating countless foes, I became one of the strongest fighters in all the realm. Yet as I roamed the wilds, my comrades did not fear me - for I appeared just as those who were untested in the trials of Tamriel. I am unable to identify the strength of my foes until the first blow. Name alone sets me apart from my rivals.

These are the consequences of a costume system that does not reflect player progress and class.

Positive Identification
Costumes are great, until everyone is wearing the same costume as you. And for what reason? Clothes in modern times are a form of self expression, but in a game inspired by medieval customs, they serve to identify rank, nobility, or wealth. A level 1 character should not look like King Emeric, and vice versa.

Indistinguishable player classes.
In player versus player (PvP) battles, understanding your foe puts you a step ahead. Consider these steps: Evaluate. Prepare. Engage. Players need a system to calculate opponents' strengths and weaknesses and then prepare for engagement. Imagery in the form of gear styles and sets is the foremost visual aid, for it is actually easier to batch process mentally than listed class icons and levels. When is the last time you were able to quickly identify the composition of a large (20+) group in Cyrodil?

Degradation of Player Progress
A max level champion is desired for their passive stat bonuses and powers. This is reflected via a flat champion level in Elder Scrolls Online, rather than the nonlinear progression of novice to advanced gear sets. This is one of the main reasons for intensified calls for the rebirth of Vanilla (Classic) World of Warcraft. Player progress was cleverly defined by unique gear sets at max level, but not so clearly defined as to systematically rank and exclude players based on a champion number.

Nothing Worthwhile is Ever Easy
The mightiest sorcerer in the realm should look the part. Players desire measured progress, with more intricate systems than flat numbers. Purchasing an outfit is neither hard nor fun. A player should be able to look back and say look how far I have come and broadcast that to their fellow players. Developers know this, which is why consistently MMORPGs (Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games) release without a costume system, until the developers unintentionally destroy it, hungry for cosmetic revenue and catering to the wishes of the freshman class’ call for a costume simulator.

you know there are some cosutumes in teh game wich will remain hard as hell to claim it liek teh emperors regalia, unless, if the player finde out they can buy an emp boost on online for gold or real mone... wich a shame thing, knowing how much work and energy i have put in to achiev that coustume, while others using momies and dadies credit card, to buy it for real money... it is disgusting, not to mention how unplayabel is cyrodiil because of these spoiled brats.

LadyLavina · January 2018

edit: deleted. Not worth the argument. came to the realization that if OP is posting this at all, they're too far gone to be reasoned with/have their opinion changed.

thread is just another drop in the bucket of s*** that is General Discussion.

DeadlyRecluse · January 2018

The only thing I want less than new players being restricted to simple/basic looking armor is to be restricted to fancy looking armor as an experienced player.

StormIV wrote: »

Degradation of Player Progress
A max level champion is desired for their passive stat bonuses and powers. This is reflected via a flat champion level in Elder Scrolls Online, rather than the nonlinear progression of novice to advanced gear sets. This is one of the main reasons for intensified calls for the rebirth of Vanilla (Classic) World of Warcraft. Player progress was cleverly defined by unique gear sets at max level, but not so clearly defined as to systematically rank and exclude players based on a champion number.

Oooooh you want a gear grind. No thanks.

bellatrixed · January 2018

The funny thing is that this basically already exists. Just go use the gear sets that look different for 160s with top tier mats and use your red rubedite weapons. No low level can use those so you're set.

StormIV · January 2018

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

StormIV wrote: »

Degradation of Player Progress
A max level champion is desired for their passive stat bonuses and powers. This is reflected via a flat champion level in Elder Scrolls Online, rather than the nonlinear progression of novice to advanced gear sets. This is one of the main reasons for intensified calls for the rebirth of Vanilla (Classic) World of Warcraft. Player progress was cleverly defined by unique gear sets at max level, but not so clearly defined as to systematically rank and exclude players based on a champion number.

Oooooh you want a gear grind. No thanks.

I think you missed my point here. Gear grinds in this game are much faster than the champion point grind. Is it typical to have a level grind, then a gear grind, where the floor is consistently lifted up with each new content teir. This is true for ESO but the power creep remains relatively consistent and tedious, and even more visible. Think of all the people who get excluded from groups because of their Champion level.

Thank you everyone for your thoughts. I agree with some of you and others I felt as though you totally missed the mark or attacked my right to an opinion so I won't even address yours.

I hope I brought some light to the negative affects costumes have on player immersion and the diverse game systems we treasure in Elder Scrolls Online. With a costume equipped, you are essentially wearing two layers which is theoretically impossible. But yes I do like wearing costumes, just not as much as I like wearing a perfect gear set which is grounded in game lore and achievement. In my unique opinion, costumes become a lazy design crutch and further microtransactions. Please take a look at other games; Acheage, Tera, Rift, it all started with costumes and now they are viewed as greedy development studios. Costumes work well for other genres, but take note, they are almost always hero specific.

Waffennacht · January 2018

I'm just like wat?

My immersion says, "all things on Nirn are subject to the will of an individual, therefore, my clothing are shaped to my Will's wants, because the spirits that make my clothing/armor listen to me"