What's the point of a healer in 4 man content when you can just have a Magicka Nightblade?

FrostFallFox · January 2018

Am I mistaken or is having a MagNB DPS with Funnel and Refreshing Path usual better than having a dedicated healer throwing out buffs and debuffs? Is part of the "DPS race" conspiracy???!!!!?!?!?!???

I was farming the Horns of The Reach dungeons earlier for motifs and each time we had a basic Templar healer it felt like a waste tbh. Maybe I just haven't met an exceptional healer outside of vet trials. When my guild mates logged on I suggested we do it with 3 DPS, and myself on a MagNB.

The runs were quicker, and because stuff died quicker we didn't have to worry about them killing us anymore

I'm shook af.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · January 2018

You ought to have been around in the days of overload sorcs, you could save 1000 ulti and just burn the bosses with nothing but that and liquid lightning, surge and hardened ward.

Also, not everyone is on your level, you are giving up a ton of dps with refreshing path too, twisting path is around 30% stronger.

Also also, a good healer will up your dpses dps by up to around 30-40% while putting out 15-20k dps themselves. So yeah, your Templar healer was not really doing their job as they ought to have.

witchdoctor · January 2018

I do love my magNB. Healing is fun; and its easy to DPS as well too.

shack80 · January 2018

We always run 4 man dungeons with tank and three dd's. For example the horns of the reach dungeons you mentioned goes much smoother with 3 good dds. Of course we all have selfheals like vigor or swallow soul.

Altough this also works if you have dedicated group who know their stuff. With randoms.... well you might get lucky.

supaskrub · January 2018

1 tank, 2 dps and a templar dps/healer running Master Architect and SPC works pretty well also with a knowledgeable group. There is more than 1 way to skin a cat..

Aisle9 · January 2018

ok, here's the thing:

On one hand you can have 2 DDs pushing 30 - 32k dps making sure they stay out of stupid, do the mechanics, and self heal, and then a magblade doing 32 - 35k dps on top of that.

On the other hand you can have 2 DDs doing 45k dps, much easier sustain (shards, orbs, master resto, ele drain), not having to worry about mechanics because you are being healed through most of them (standing in stupid, not kiting, no self heal) and a 10k dps support from the healer (heavy attack, blockade, shards, etc) and providing buffs (SPC, warhorn, combat prayer), debuffs (mending, elemental drain, concuss with charged lightning staff) and mitigation (nova, gossamer, ritual, purge, etc).

This is assuming you have a tank. To be honest there's no much difference.

OR...

..you can just run 4 magblade or 2 magblades and 2 magsorcs and rotflstomp the thing.#MagbladePower #NerfSorc

ArchMikem · January 2018

Sometimes self heals aren't enough. Having a dedicated Healer might make the Dungeon go more slowly, but at least you're worrying less about wiping.

vyndral13preub18_ESO · January 2018

You should ask your templar what he is doing. If funnel and refreshing is enough to keep everyone alive, then the dot from the restro staff and the Templars aoe heal dot is enough to keep everyone alive. What are they doing the rest of the time? Just standing there?

Doesn’t sound like a nb problem. Sounds like a player problem.

Aisle9 · January 2018

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

You should ask your templar what he is doing. If funnel and refreshing is enough to keep everyone alive, then the dot from the restro staff and the Templars aoe heal dot is enough to keep everyone alive. What are they doing the rest of the time? Just standing there?

Doesn’t sound like a nb problem. Sounds like a player problem.

For 4men content, you don't necessarily need a dedicated healer, every class has access to some sort of self healing, plus some classes have support healing built in (Funnel), meaning that in an ideal situation, with experienced people, there is no necessity for a dedicated healer, but a dedicated healer will add considerable benefits to the group.

What a dedicated healer provides, tho, is not just healing. If your dedicated healer (templar, warden, DK, w/e) is only healing (spamming BoL, Stone fist, matriarch, etc) then yes, you should definitely ask them what they are doing.

We were running vDSA yesterday, did 1 run with a stamsorc, a stamplar, a DK tank and I was running a magblade, then, for the 2nd run, I switched to my templar healer (SPC+master resto). Despite me adding, on average, 35k dps, changing to a dedicated healer changed little in the time it took to clear and the overall dps.

As I said, you don't necessarily need a dedicated healer, but having one doesn't make it slower. The things you have to do are different, and how you approach the challenge is also different, but, in practice, the difference in performances is not noticeable. In one case everyone does less dps, but you have one dps more, so maybe it's faster to clear adds, in the other case the 2 dps you have can safely stand in stupid and get a considerable buff.

Just to add a little clarification: only nightblades have access to minor berserk (8% more damage), unless you want to run slimecraw, which will preclude you from running a different monster set (e.g. Kra'gh, Grothdarr, Ilambris, Skoria, Velidreth) so the bonus obtained from combat prayer is considerable. On top of that the bonus you get from SPC is massive.

A magblade running SPC will lose a considerable chunk of dps, so they won't, therefore having a dedicated healer will increase the existing dps by an incredibly high amount. On top of that, more warhorn uptime, or the possiblity to burn the boss and ignore the adds (nova).

Vermintide · January 2018

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Also, not everyone is on your level, you are giving up a ton of dps with refreshing path too, twisting path is around 30% stronger.

It's a hard decision to make, but when you break it down, it only translates to ~500 dps difference. That's such a small fraction of my overall DPS (25-30K when I'm actually concentrating) that I think the heal is very much worthwhile.

Best class for carrying a bunch of potatoes if you are willing to sacrifice a couple % deeps. A pure DPS build just leaves a you with a lot of weaknesses when you are solo or in a sub par group (i.e fake tank/bad healer).

NewBlacksmurf · January 2018

Healer is better than what you described.

You have to understand everyone plays different with diff builds or ideas so maybe in one perfectly described situation this works but if you do pick up groups for veteran content you should already know that this won’t work for every situation.

Mureel · January 2018

Also I am 100% sure that I've carried more than my share of groups on my Templar healer than any one DPS has. (Probably a lot because I won't leave group because noobs as well!)

All noobs all 300cp or less but me, tank had 300ish and the dps had 150sth and 160sth coa2 hm no wipes.

If you had a whatever healing that group, they'd have wiped so hard it wouldn't even be fun anymore.

Sure in an all experienced group with self heals etc fine - no need. How stupid was it though to basically make healers pointless in these instances? Like scuse me but fu. Go heal vhof or vmol on your nb then. o/

Aisle9 · January 2018

One reason I can think of, for not running a dedicated healer may be that your 2 DDs are very subpar (under 10k) and you can add 35k dps on your own.

In that case it make sense, because the difference in dps is substantial and they won't be able to take advantage of SPC, combat prayer, etc.

Another may be that the content is so trivial you can't be bothered with relogging...

Mureel · January 2018

Or putting it another way: if ya can't abide a healer in 4 man groups so they can do pledges if they want then why should I bother helping several dps get their trial achs? I have mine so.....?

Basically you scratch my back and I won't rofl when you are tapping your staff on your hand all 'wer muh mana go?!'

VaranisArano · January 2018

Generally speaking if you have a group that knows the dungeon, has high DPS, and is prepared to be somewhat self-sufficient on self-healing, you'll get a faster dungeon run if you don't have a dedicated healer.

Its when you don't have that combination of factors (aka practically every random PUG through groupfinder) that having a dedicated healer becomes important.

Inarre · January 2018

I think it totally depends on the group, and the content. The templar should be able to adjust accordingly to give the most to their team, whether that be buffs and debuffs, or going full dps mode and throwing heals when needed. That said, if an Nb can heal your 4 man with two hots, then I would say the content is a bit too easy to really pit the playstyles against each other.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · January 2018

Vermintide wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Also, not everyone is on your level, you are giving up a ton of dps with refreshing path too, twisting path is around 30% stronger.

It's a hard decision to make, but when you break it down, it only translates to ~500 dps difference. That's such a small fraction of my overall DPS (25-30K when I'm actually concentrating) that I think the heal is very much worthwhile.

Best class for carrying a bunch of potatoes if you are willing to sacrifice a couple % deeps. A pure DPS build just leaves a you with a lot of weaknesses when you are solo or in a sub par group (i.e fake tank/bad healer).

i mean if you think the heal is worth it, but it is much more then 500 dps difference, look at my magblades refreshing vs twisting.

this add on lets you see both morphs at the same time, - http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info489-HarvensImprovedSkillsWindow.html

that is a 40% increase in dps, at base, 708 base damage increase without crits or anything. i don't know about you but funnel health is more then enough to help the team out. twisting is always in my top 2 or 3, neck and neck with my lightning wall, they do almost the same damage but i let wall drop off more often.

Vermintide · January 2018

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Vermintide wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Also, not everyone is on your level, you are giving up a ton of dps with refreshing path too, twisting path is around 30% stronger.

It's a hard decision to make, but when you break it down, it only translates to ~500 dps difference. That's such a small fraction of my overall DPS (25-30K when I'm actually concentrating) that I think the heal is very much worthwhile.

Best class for carrying a bunch of potatoes if you are willing to sacrifice a couple % deeps. A pure DPS build just leaves a you with a lot of weaknesses when you are solo or in a sub par group (i.e fake tank/bad healer).

i mean if you think the heal is worth it, but it is much more then 500 dps difference, look at my magblades refreshing vs twisting.

this add on lets you see both morphs at the same time, - http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info489-HarvensImprovedSkillsWindow.html

that is a 40% increase in dps, at base, 708 base damage increase without crits or anything. i don't know about you but funnel health is more then enough to help the team out.

Yeah I agree that it's a decent chunk more damage on the skill alone, but I don't think the difference between 25k and 25.7k DPS, when factored into the full rotation, is life changing (discounting crits obviously). Pretty sure you get more than that from dark elf passives or lightning staff on your wall of elements.

Of course, if you wanna squeeze every drop of damage out then go right ahead. I've just found it more useful that way personally

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · January 2018

Vermintide wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Vermintide wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Also, not everyone is on your level, you are giving up a ton of dps with refreshing path too, twisting path is around 30% stronger.

It's a hard decision to make, but when you break it down, it only translates to ~500 dps difference. That's such a small fraction of my overall DPS (25-30K when I'm actually concentrating) that I think the heal is very much worthwhile.

Best class for carrying a bunch of potatoes if you are willing to sacrifice a couple % deeps. A pure DPS build just leaves a you with a lot of weaknesses when you are solo or in a sub par group (i.e fake tank/bad healer).

i mean if you think the heal is worth it, but it is much more then 500 dps difference, look at my magblades refreshing vs twisting.

this add on lets you see both morphs at the same time, - http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info489-HarvensImprovedSkillsWindow.html

that is a 40% increase in dps, at base, 708 base damage increase without crits or anything. i don't know about you but funnel health is more then enough to help the team out.

Yeah I agree that it's a decent chunk more damage on the skill alone, but I don't think the difference between 25k and 25.7k DPS, when factored into the full rotation, is life changing (discounting crits obviously). Pretty sure you get more than that from dark elf passives or lightning staff on your wall of elements.

Of course, if you wanna squeeze every drop of damage out then go right ahead. I've just found it more useful that way personally

can i just say i hate emojis, i prolly wouldnt have responded again had you not had that blankity blank smiley face. triggering intensifies.

that 700 would get boosted by all the nice stuff and prolly be closer to to 2k dps difference once all the buffs were up, that is a massive amount, that is 7-10% of your dps that you are giving up to keep people that the healer ought to be worrying about, alive. i routinely pug in this game and i love my magblade, with just funnel and sap i usually do between 40-60% of the hps while doing 50-70% of the dps.

being a dark elf would not help my build that much, though it would help, i do admit that, i do use lightning wall and the exploiter passive. the only fire damage i have are the destro ulti, the fire enchant on my back bar vma staff and my light attacks on my front bar . i also use nerienth on my magblade, it does around 3-5% of my dps on good parses, mostly cause i love the way it looks. i have 5 juli and 4 IA ,with a fire front bar.

so i am already using non optimal race and monster hem, i get that, so i have to make it up somewheres and twisting is where that is.

Samadhi · January 2018

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

...
can i just say i hate emojis,...

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · January 2018

Samadhi wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

...
can i just say i hate emojis,...

yeah like that, thank you for demonstrating the problem.

firedrgn · January 2018

Hate leads to the dark side it does.

Samadhi · January 2018

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

...
can i just say i hate emojis,...

yeah like that, thank you for demonstrating the problem.

You're welcome,
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