Why are there snares again!?

Ectheliontnacil · January 2018

To avoid any kind of confusion I would like to point out that this is a pvp related discussion, mainly due to the fact that snares do not hugely impact pve.

Why are there snares in the game? Honestly I can't help but wonder who had the misfortune of coming up with such a short-sighted idea! Let us start of by looking at what snares actually do. Snares reduce your characters movement speed, in other words: they ruin your gameplay experience, they make you feel like your character is weak and useless and there's also some sense of utter hopelessness that I have come to associate with being snared - complete certainty that you will get chased down by the ZERG no matter what. I mean I could go deeper into the whole debuff-meta and how it makes the game more negative ("cancer"), but if were to digress I would end up writing a novel and not a discussion. I would however like to say this: Debuffs make you feel bad, which is really not something I am looking for when I play a video game, buffs on the other hand make you feel stronger, cooler and more powerful...why take that away from us.
I do understand Zeni's philosophy of "a counter to everything", which is completely flawed since the counter should only work once a buff is active (so you can only be snared when you're already using a speed buff and your movement speed cannot drop below the normal movement speed of your character).

But enough of my rambling, let's bring some structure to my thoughts and point out exactly why snares have such a detrimental effect on pvp.

As mentioned, above snares make you feel awful, they make me feel sick, they're repulsive and make me want to quit...as soon as I step outside of a keep I am already snared. Snares are pure and absolute cancer, snares are a level that only the lowest and least skilful players descend too in order to feel some sense of accomplishment (the knowledge of having aided a ZERG!!! With chasing down a better player or making said player so sick of your playstyle that he simply tried to walk away…which he couldn’t because you snared him!!!!). In all seriousness though, snares make people want to quit the game and more ragequits equal less profit so it is also in Zeni’s interest to address this issue. The snare using Salt-Lords will be tempted to hate on this discussion, so at this point I would humbly ask them to refrain from calling me names and voice their displeasure with this article but I do welcome constructive criticism

Ectheliontnacil · January 2018

Secondly they make gap closers useless. Playing melee builds offers many advantages: In general you do more damage (skills like surprise attack, concealed weapon, executioner, lava whip etc. do hit exceptionally hard) also (this is of course generally speaking) melee skills tend to be more “powerful” overall and the raw damage is often paired with additional buffs and debuffs e.g. major fracture, as is the case with ransack and surprise attack. Also melee attacks are hard to avoid, since you don’t see them coming as is the case with ranged attacks, it’s much harder to block a animation-cancelled dawnbreaker, that it is to avoid a merciless resolve proc. So on the one hand we have all these pros but where are the cons to using melee based skills? Well that con used to be the need to equip a gapcloser. Do not get me wrong here, gapclosers are great skills in their own right but they do make most attacks somewhat more predictable and until the opponent “closes the gap” you are not subjected to the relentless onslaught of close ranged dots, roots and damage attacks. Also classes like magicka dragonknights had to use either chains (which costs them a skillslot) or the 1h/s charge (which is a cool stun but it costs a lot of stamina to use). Currently though, most melee builds simply use snares, which allows them to stay on their opponents 100% of the time, which makes it virtually impossible for the opponent to gain distance and allows the “snare-user” to have complete control of positioning in the fight.

Ectheliontnacil · January 2018

Also 1vXing becomes nigh impossible, if the group you are fighting has good damage. A prerequisite for 1vXing is mobility (with the exception of some ultra cancerous tank builds perhaps), if one is faced with over 3 or more opponents (who know what they are doing) the damage pressure is insane. In these situations you need to elude your opponents, kite them so you don’t take too much damage and then you need to burst them down one at a time in a small window of opportunity – never letting your guard down. With snares and roots this tactic becomes increasingly difficult. Magicka nightblades (my favourite class) are probably most affected by this, since cloak is useless when you are snared and the opponent(s) has plenty of time to cast some sort of aoe or swing his 2h, since you are invisible but barely moving at all.

Ectheliontnacil · January 2018

And lastly (but perhaps most importantly), there is a cruel irony to the snare meta. Whoever uses it, is least affected by it! Who does use snares? Well mostly stamina dks (their toolkit is packed with snares) and stamina sorcerers, along with magicka dragonknights, (templars…though not really relevant in my opinion) and magicka/stamina wardens (using stampede or winters revenge). All those classes are not hugely affected by snares and here’s why:

Stamina dks can easily use forward momentum, running heavy armour they don’t need to rely on rally for the burst heal.

Magicka dks are usually very tanky and don’t need to be mobile in the same way that other builds need to be, also they are often vampires and can use elusive mist for snare immunity AND since they have access to major healing skills in their class tree, they can run 2h if they need to and are able to use forward momentum too.

Stamina sorcerers can of course use forward momentum too if they are running heavy, or they can pair shuffle with streak and they’re almost impossible to catch, snares or no snares.

And finally wardens (who already are less susceptible to snares) are easily able to run forward momentum, since they have a ton of healing, have great mobility and are OP in general (but I am saving my warden rant for a later discussion

Ectheliontnacil · January 2018

Almost done here! The problem with counters. Wait, wait before you tell me that I am a moron who didn’t realise that snares have counters. There is a huge problem with counters: The classes who use snares have counters to snares (detailed above) and the classes who most sorely need them, i.e. magblades and maybe magsorcs are punished severely for using counters. Why and how are they punished? Oh they are punished most harshly for trying to evade the snare meta. The first option is to use forward momentum, but this comes at a stamina cost AND since healing is not the greatest on either of those classes it is hard to drop a resto staff in favour of the 2h (and dropping a destro staff would cost a ton of damage…). Elusive mist, sadly, isn’t always viable either – no matter what you use the snare users will get you: Elusive mist requires stage 4 vampirism and vampires are easy prey for all of the snaring builds listed above. Magicka dks will tear you up with a flat 25% damage increase against you (I mean a magdk is basically an emperor against a stage 4 vamp) and all those stamina builds have a MUUUUUCHH stronger dawnbreaker against you, with the potential to almost 1-shot you.

Ectheliontnacil · January 2018

So yeah…no counters.
In conclusion I would like to say that snares are complete *”@$!!** and they serve no purpose!
Thankyou for reading my 1,5k word long rant about snares

Ectheliontnacil · January 2018

Please pardon my spelling and my grammatical errors…I didn’t proofread this and I wrote this in a very “passionate” moment^^ so I can only imagined how my writing suffered from this.
If you feel the same way and/or you liked this article please comment and like this so it comes to Zeni’s attention

Subversus · January 2018

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

So yeah…no counters.
In conclusion I would like to say that snares are complete *”@$!!**.
Thankyou for reading my 1,5k word long rant about snares

I agree

Skoomah · January 2018

Sounds like a L2P issue. Sorcs streak away. Nightblades cloak away. Wardens have major expedition. Templars can cleanse. Dragon Knights just sit there and take it. Snares ain't a problem man.

idk · January 2018

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

To avoid any kind of confusion I would like to point out that this is a pvp related discussion, mainly due to the fact that snares do not hugely impact pve.

There are snares in PvE. The latest trial has snares from multiple sources and some of them hinder getting out of the damage from the effect that caused the snare.

As for the rest of your post that I did not quote, there are multiple counters to snares. One uses them or deals with the snares.

It really is that simple. Hard to really complain about something that is so easily counters.

Ectheliontnacil · January 2018

@Skoomah

Skoomah wrote: »

Sounds like a L2P issue. Sorcs streak away. Nightblades cloak away. Wardens have major expedition. Templars can cleanse. Dragon Knights just sit there and take it. Snares ain't a problem man.

Haha a learn to play issue XD... ye I don't think that's it. As a 1vXer I see myself at the skilled end of the spectrum of pvp players.

Besides I already listed all of those counters and did point out that those classes don't struggle with snares, it's magblades and sorcs mostly...please read before you comment.

So in case you didn't get it the first time: Cloak is not useful and easily broken when snared, since you can't get out of range of AoE abilities quickly. And streak by itself is useless also since it costs a lot and you won't get very far only using streak.

idk · January 2018

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

@Skoomah

Skoomah wrote: »

Sounds like a L2P issue. Sorcs streak away. Nightblades cloak away. Wardens have major expedition. Templars can cleanse. Dragon Knights just sit there and take it. Snares ain't a problem man.

Haha a learn to play issue XD... ye I don't think that's it. As a 1vXer I see myself at the skilled end of the spectrum of pvp players.

Besides I already listed all of those counters and did point out that those classes don't struggle with snares, it's magblades and sorcs mostly...please read before you comment.

Yet you do not use any of the counters it seems, seemingly. Most counters are not class specific.

I guess it makes sense because I see you created a thread awhile back complaining about hard counters like detection pots.

Sharee · January 2018

Snares are there so everyone doesn't just zip around like a monkey on crack, or orbit a rock at 10+ revolutions per second.

Theoretically anyway. In practice people happily zip around with my DOTs ticking on them like nothing. "Warmth DK passive? What's that?"

Ectheliontnacil · January 2018

@idk

idk wrote: »

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

@Skoomah

Skoomah wrote: »

Sounds like a L2P issue. Sorcs streak away. Nightblades cloak away. Wardens have major expedition. Templars can cleanse. Dragon Knights just sit there and take it. Snares ain't a problem man.

Haha a learn to play issue XD... ye I don't think that's it. As a 1vXer I see myself at the skilled end of the spectrum of pvp players.

Besides I already listed all of those counters and did point out that those classes don't struggle with snares, it's magblades and sorcs mostly...please read before you comment.

Yet you do not use any of the counters it seems, seemingly. Most counters are not class specific.

I guess it makes sense because I see you created a thread awhile back complaining about hard counters like detection pots.

Hmmm maybe the name gives it away, I don't think you know what you're talking about

The non class specific counters are in turn countered by most snare using builds. Vampirism makes you very vulnerable to magdks and dawnbreakers (which most stambuilds run) and since we're talking about magsorcs and magblades here specifically, the undeath passive is also less useful (because of shields) so vampire isn't always a viable option. Forward momentum requires you to drop either a resto or a destroy staff, which comes with severe disadvantages for both nb's and sorcs. And finally purge only removes 2(?) negative effects and costs soooooooo much.

So what counters should I use then?

idk · January 2018

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

@idk

idk wrote: »

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

@Skoomah

Skoomah wrote: »

Sounds like a L2P issue. Sorcs streak away. Nightblades cloak away. Wardens have major expedition. Templars can cleanse. Dragon Knights just sit there and take it. Snares ain't a problem man.

Haha a learn to play issue XD... ye I don't think that's it. As a 1vXer I see myself at the skilled end of the spectrum of pvp players.

Besides I already listed all of those counters and did point out that those classes don't struggle with snares, it's magblades and sorcs mostly...please read before you comment.

Yet you do not use any of the counters it seems, seemingly. Most counters are not class specific.

I guess it makes sense because I see you created a thread awhile back complaining about hard counters like detection pots.

Hmmm maybe the name gives it away, I don't think you know what you're talking about
The non class specific counters are in turn countered by most snare using builds. Vampirism makes you very vulnerable to magdks and dawnbreakers (which most stambuilds run) and since we're talking about magsorcs and magblades here specifically the undeath passive is also less useful (because of shields) so vampire isn't always a viable option. Forward momentum requires you to drop either a resto or a destroy staff, which comes with severe disadvantages for both nb's and sorcs. And finally purge only removes 2(?) negative effects and costs soooooooo much.

So what counters should I use then?

I was not talking mSorcs or MBs.

For starters their is a purge available to all. Just off the top of my head before I finished coffee. It does not require dropping a resto or dstaff and does not come with any disadvantages, only advantages like cleansing other effects.

BTW, there is a morph called Efficient Purge. Cost is significantly less and is probably the best counter magicka builds have. Since you are only discussing removing one negative effect in this thread it would seem to be a great counter to use.

Also, Purge reduces the effect of the remaining debuffs by 50% for several seconds. Big plus.

Ectheliontnacil · January 2018

@idk

idk wrote: »

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

@idk

idk wrote: »

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

@Skoomah

Skoomah wrote: »

Sounds like a L2P issue. Sorcs streak away. Nightblades cloak away. Wardens have major expedition. Templars can cleanse. Dragon Knights just sit there and take it. Snares ain't a problem man.

Haha a learn to play issue XD... ye I don't think that's it. As a 1vXer I see myself at the skilled end of the spectrum of pvp players.

Besides I already listed all of those counters and did point out that those classes don't struggle with snares, it's magblades and sorcs mostly...please read before you comment.

Yet you do not use any of the counters it seems, seemingly. Most counters are not class specific.

I guess it makes sense because I see you created a thread awhile back complaining about hard counters like detection pots.

Hmmm maybe the name gives it away, I don't think you know what you're talking about
The non class specific counters are in turn countered by most snare using builds. Vampirism makes you very vulnerable to magdks and dawnbreakers (which most stambuilds run) and since we're talking about magsorcs and magblades here specifically the undeath passive is also less useful (because of shields) so vampire isn't always a viable option. Forward momentum requires you to drop either a resto or a destroy staff, which comes with severe disadvantages for both nb's and sorcs. And finally purge only removes 2(?) negative effects and costs soooooooo much.

So what counters should I use then?

I was not talking mSorcs or MBs.

For starters their is a purge available to all. Just off the top of my head before I finished coffee. It does not require dropping a resto or dstaff and does not come with any disadvantages, only advantages like cleansing other effects.

BTW, there is a morph called Efficient Purge. Cost is significantly less and is probably the best counter magicka builds have. Since you are only discussing removing one negative effect in this thread it would seem to be a great counter to use.

Also, Purge reduces the effect of the remaining debuffs by 50% for several seconds. Big plus.

Yes, it's true efficient purge is available to all and I only want to remove the snare effect (there may however be multiple snares so that's not just one effect), however purge is not selective. It will remove whatever is on you, status effects, dots, debuffs etc. and it's still costs over 5k magicka. Now in pvp it is not unusual to have over 5 negative effects on you, with new ones being applied all the time, so it's quite impossible to purge your snare with just one cast. From experience I would say it takes at least 3 times to remove the effect you want removed, this is a 15k magicka cost AND the snare can just get reapplied while you are purging. ^^

I don't know if you are a pvp player like me, but you should really try purge and you will see how it's not very effective.

technohic · January 2018

We should get rid of all CCs also. They also make you feel weak and powerless. We should all just stand still facing each other so we can just go straight into a DPS vs Tankiness race.

In all seriousness though; its supposed to be part of strategic play and counter play. This is definitely not the first MMO to use it and won't be the last but I would say we have far too many ways to have this stacked up just as a side effect and reapply while there is not as much to keep them off.

IF you were to argue we need less snares or more counters; I'd support you. But to just talk like them not being there at all would be better; I find kind of ridiculous.

Vapirko · January 2018

It’s not that snares need to disappear entirely, it’s just that they’re attached to wayyy too many skills including many high Damage skills. The addition on snare poisons is also not needed.

Ectheliontnacil · January 2018

@technohic

technohic wrote: »

We should get rid of all CCs also. They also make you feel weak and powerless. We should all just stand still facing each other so we can just go straight into a DPS vs Tankiness race.

In all seriousness though; its supposed to be part of strategic play and counter play. This is definitely not the first MMO to use it and won't be the last but I would say we have far too many ways to have this stacked up just as a side effect and reapply while there is not as much to keep them off.

IF you were to argue we need less snares or more counters; I'd support you. But to just talk like them not being there at all would be better; I find kind of ridiculous.

This was more of a rant than it was an attempt at finding a compromise in regard to the snare problem... so yes I would be happy/happier with more counters or less snares.
In fact I said I would be fine with a debuff to 0% increased movement speed (to counter major expedition for example) but 70% snares are just stupidly overpowered and ruin the gameplay experience.

And since you mentioned it, cc's aren't like snares at all. They are easily countered by all classes and can actually be used in tactical gameplay. If you talk about snares being "strategic" though... XD come on bro!

Ectheliontnacil · January 2018

@Vapirko

Vapirko wrote: »

It’s not that snares need to disappear entirely, it’s just that they’re attached to wayyy too many skills including many high Damage skills. The addition on snare poisons is also not needed.

Ye I can agree with that, also there should be a cooldown. A 100% uptime on snares is silly imo.

Biro123 · January 2018

idk.. On magsorc, I think they're ok.. I have nothing to remove them but streak, major expedition + a few dodgerolls to gain distance normally does the job.

Magblade? My melee magblade gives up destro staff for fwd momentum (or at least it will when he unlocks fwd momentum - getting by with rapids at the mo)
Plus there's that nice dot that snares your opponent and gives you major exped. Shade too (when it works)

Just have to make sure there are counters in your build - especially if it bugs you so much.

Ectheliontnacil · January 2018

@Biro123

Biro123 wrote: »

idk.. On magsorc, I think they're ok.. I have nothing to remove them but streak, major expedition + a few dodgerolls to gain distance normally does the job.

Magblade? My melee magblade gives up destro staff for fwd momentum (or at least it will when he unlocks fwd momentum - getting by with rapids at the mo)
Plus there's that nice dot that snares your opponent and gives you major exped. Shade too (when it works)

Just have to make sure there are counters in your build - especially if it bugs you so much.

Hey dude, I appreciate you thinking about how to respond

And it is true that snares aren't that much of an issue with sorcerers, however it makes the streak escape very challenging, which kind of destroys the sorcerer playstyle (always kite opponents when outnumbered).

I have to disagree with what you said about magblades though. Blobs build (with forward momentum) is certainly unique, kind of cool and can perform well against a less skilful adversary. However since I am a solo player, I am outnumbered in a majority of my fights where melee magblade is quite underwhelming. I mean magblades are woefully inadequate for openworld pvp anyway (in the current patch at least) but the melee playstyle emphasises those weaknesses magblade has.

What makes melee magblade even less viable that a ranged build:

1)Nightblades have no access to a third shield, this is however counteracted (slightly) with swallow/ and siphoning attacks and the healing those skills provide. You may have fewer shields than sorcerers but with the extra healing it's easier to recover from direct blows to your health pool.
2)Concealed Weapon is more expensive. While dealing a fair bit more damage, the cost for this skill is also quite a bit higher (and it doesn't provide healing). One strength of nightblades is the comparatively good sustain through siphoning attacks and a cheap swallow soul. Using concealed weapon decreases your sustain noticeably.
3)No kiting: Magblades can actually kite single or multiple opponents quite well on ranged builds, using shadow image, their root and movement speed buff along with flame reach. Very often I can get kills without taking even the slightest damage from melee builds^^.

So I wouldn't say forward momentum is a very viable alternative for an openworld magblade.

Draxys · January 2018

I don’t know that they should be removed, but I definitely think there are wayyy too many ways to snare someone. Cut down the amount of snares by a significant amount and I think they’d be fine. That and consolidate them into major and minor debuffs like they did everything else.

TheDoomsdayMonster · January 2018

Sharee wrote: »

Snares are there so everyone doesn't just zip around like a monkey on crack, or orbit a rock at 10+ revolutions per second.

100% agreed...

Snares are absolutely needed in this game as some builds would be insanely difficult to kill without them; especially when they have obstructions in the environment to run around...

@Ectheliontnacil

You can't have it all...

You say that Elusive Mist is not an option because it makes you vulnerable to other things (like Dawnbreaker and Magicka Dragonknights), but that's the trade off for a good solution to being snared...

It seems to me that you want your one spec to be effective against everything so you can happily 1vx away, but that's not balance...

You want something, you gotta give up something...thats balance...and it forces you to make a decision as pertains what you want your character to be most effective at.

Ectheliontnacil · January 2018

@Draxys

Draxys wrote: »

I don’t know that they should be removed, but I definitely think there are wayyy too many ways to snare someone. Cut down the amount of snares by a significant amount and I think they’d be fine. That and consolidate them into major and minor debuffs like they did everything else.

Also there should be a limited snare duration (lets say 5 sec) and then a cooldown

.
And I don't get why snares are attached to so many damage skills, if there were pure snare skills (or snares paired with weak dots) I would understand, but as it is it's quite hard not to run snares, even if you don't want to run them.
But to be honest I don't see much of a point in snares existing at all, just use gapclosers ffs! XD

BroanBeast1215 · January 2018

Every MMO ive played has had snares...

what are you complaining about?

Datthaw · January 2018

Vapirko wrote: »

It’s not that snares need to disappear entirely, it’s just that they’re attached to wayyy too many skills including many high Damage skills. The addition on snare poisons is also not needed.

This is the only problem I see wth snares. Alot of them come in a combo package. They need to stop doing that, people should have to make a choice on their skills, not these perfect well rounded skills that do everything.

The question is how do you go about doing this.

Silver_Strider · January 2018

Snares are just to prevalent in ESO and the % of Snare on some skills is just ludicrous (A 70% snare is WAY too high)

Reducing the overall number of skills with snare effects and toning down the % of the snares would do wonders in my eyes.

idk · January 2018

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

@idk

idk wrote: »

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

@idk

idk wrote: »

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

@Skoomah

Skoomah wrote: »

Sounds like a L2P issue. Sorcs streak away. Nightblades cloak away. Wardens have major expedition. Templars can cleanse. Dragon Knights just sit there and take it. Snares ain't a problem man.

Haha a learn to play issue XD... ye I don't think that's it. As a 1vXer I see myself at the skilled end of the spectrum of pvp players.

Besides I already listed all of those counters and did point out that those classes don't struggle with snares, it's magblades and sorcs mostly...please read before you comment.

Yet you do not use any of the counters it seems, seemingly. Most counters are not class specific.

I guess it makes sense because I see you created a thread awhile back complaining about hard counters like detection pots.

Hmmm maybe the name gives it away, I don't think you know what you're talking about
The non class specific counters are in turn countered by most snare using builds. Vampirism makes you very vulnerable to magdks and dawnbreakers (which most stambuilds run) and since we're talking about magsorcs and magblades here specifically the undeath passive is also less useful (because of shields) so vampire isn't always a viable option. Forward momentum requires you to drop either a resto or a destroy staff, which comes with severe disadvantages for both nb's and sorcs. And finally purge only removes 2(?) negative effects and costs soooooooo much.

So what counters should I use then?

I was not talking mSorcs or MBs.

For starters their is a purge available to all. Just off the top of my head before I finished coffee. It does not require dropping a resto or dstaff and does not come with any disadvantages, only advantages like cleansing other effects.

BTW, there is a morph called Efficient Purge. Cost is significantly less and is probably the best counter magicka builds have. Since you are only discussing removing one negative effect in this thread it would seem to be a great counter to use.

Also, Purge reduces the effect of the remaining debuffs by 50% for several seconds. Big plus.

Yes, it's true efficient purge is available to all and I only want to remove the snare effect (there may however be multiple snares so that's not just one effect), however purge is not selective. It will remove whatever is on you, status effects, dots, debuffs etc. and it's still costs over 5k magicka. Now in pvp it is not unusual to have over 5 negative effects on you, with new ones being applied all the time, so it's quite impossible to purge your snare with just one cast. From experience I would say it takes at least 3 times to remove the effect you want removed, this is a 15k magicka cost AND the snare can just get reapplied while you are purging. ^^

I don't know if you are a pvp player like me, but you should really try purge and you will see how it's not very effective.

Let's see, I first used purge in Cyrodiil over 40 months ago and I'm aware of how it behaves even with the recent changes made to it.

Everyone in Cyrodiil deals with the same snares. Some are better at dealing with them the others. Since you choose to not use the counter because it doesn't suit your narrow definition of how it should behave I have no sympathy for you.

From observation over the years threads like this, where the player has a number of players excuses for not using the counter don't really go very far. I don't like the covert effective counter doesn't fly far.

Koensol · January 2018

I find the snares, but moreso the amount of snares in eso, to be absolutely cancerous. Literally every skill line with a couple exceptions have one or more snares in them. In a game without cooldowns, I think it is completely out of hand. Even in pve, in places such as vDSA, literally everything seems to snare you. Snares shouldn't be that influential in that we have magicka builds running a stamina weapon for the only purpose to be able to remove a snare. Builds that do not run a snare removal tool should not be able to be permanently snared. A cc should be used tactically, not spammed ad nauseum by zergs to completely halt someone to a near stop. Something has to be done about this.

QuebraRegra · January 2018

Skoomah wrote: »

Sounds like a L2P issue. Sorcs streak away. Nightblades cloak away. Wardens have major expedition. Templars can cleanse. Dragon Knights just sit there and take it. Snares ain't a problem man.

but everything still breaks cloak... and the shade teleport is broken too.