Why the Meta is hurting the game .

Gahmerdohn · December 2017

I'm really sorry if this post is hurting some people feelings, I really do, it's not the goal.

I just think that this video is saying something profoundly true :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ey2bpDYGd4c

If only more efforts were done by the community (theorycrafter mainly) to find ways to optimise a big variety of build instead of always and always take the path of least resistance it would be great ...
If only people were more tolerant with the ones that don't play the meta but have done a great job to make a build that actually works really good it would be great.

-When still now I see tanks leaving the group even before starting anything saying that if I'm not templar I shouldn't heal even though sorc healer is a great healer I'm shocked ...

-When they refuse you on trial because you're playing a Bow/Bow Warden build event before testing your dps I'm shocked ...

-When I see that the situation of my NB tank gone worst and worst each patch and no love has been showed I'm shocked...

-When I see that the past 2 years we almost never see 2 handed warrior buil stays for long in trials mainly because they're more squishy than the "rogue" type of character ( daggers ) I'm really shocked ....

This list could go forever, I'm not saying that Zenimax hasn't work to make this situation better . I'm just saying that they have still a lot of work to do in that sense and If the community doesn't help (being so close-minded and lazy) it will never be possible.

Thanks to people like ESO daily and Sherman we have more options to build interesting and diverse characters even though they receive a lot of hate for that even though they're not hurting someone just for wanting more diversity in builds ...

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjXmJ9OSjpGGpUEYI1ypZoA

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrgYNgpFTRAl4XWz31o2emw

usmcjdking · December 2017

Is this a serious post?

Do you drive to work in the morning? Or do you run a mile, catch 2 buses and then grab a cab even though you have a functioning vehicle?

People do things in general because it's easier to do them. If you are trying to do something that is hard, why on earth would you make something more difficult for not only yourself or others?

There is a degree too which you can and should be creative in this game. I've brought experimental builds to raids, a vast majority failed to meet expectation, some succeeded. But at the end of the day on each one of those builds I was already capable of executing the minimum required as I had already thoroughly tested the capabilities.

You can't bring bunk players with bunk builds and expect good things to happen, I'm sorry that's just not how it works. People are not going to be happy if they are failing because one player has specifically decided to not do their best AND not do the minimum needed.

If you want to run hard content with off meta builds then you need to be a better player than you currently are. It's that simple.

Betsararie · December 2017

Just the title alone doesn't make sense man. No offense

The meta is whatever is mathematically proven to be superior.... there will always be one single best. No matter how much you may dislike that fact.

Found it funnier when I learned it was a PvE centric post. thanks for posting

kaithuzar · December 2017

I think what the op is trying to say is that there "could" be more than one best depending on playstyle. This may not be a great analogy but work with me for a minute. Imagine that you have one person playing on pc & one on console. Based on the controls being different, let's pretend that you can't weave efficiently on console. Therefore the console player would need an entirely different build to be effective.
Maybe the console player gets a pc & decides to use his console build. It's true that he shouldn't be able to come near the dps of a weaving pc player, but he should be able to meet the minimum requirement for the dungeon, trial, etc.. as he's already completed the content on console.
It's also true that even without weaving it may be possible for his build to be improved upon.

The thing is that it's up to the individual to either do their own testing or ask specific questions. I did feel as though the op is being a bit lazy in blaming the community for not coming up with different builds but maybe I misinterpreted & op is just blaming people for not being more open minded in trials runs.

aeowulf · December 2017

there was an PTS update a while back and Gilliam (the rogue) was raving about it, it changed the meta to have way more options than the current meta. It was mostly around traits and how all of a sudden some traits were a bit better in some situations, but quite frankly the key ones were all fairly close. It was pulled at the last minute and didn't make it live.

I feel ZoS have little understanding of cause and effect, i.e the secondary changes that happen. Take the NB sap tank for example. The changes to sustain whilst on paper meant they now looked to have roughly the same sustain as a warden, meant they could not sap tank anymore. Their tanking skills are not <as> suitable for this role anymore, where a warden has skills that are more rounded for tanking. (AE root for example, which reduces the damage done to the group - NB used to use sap, so the group took damage but also had extra healing - countering this)

other isses surround things like dps, stam NB dps is strong but the rotation is seriously unforgiving. Compare to say a mag sorc, the dps is just as strong, but it's 'easy mode' - when something unexpected happens it pretty much just carries on withou interupting the rotation too much. Easy mode should not be the best dps, people should work for those 30k+ scores no matter the class.

The holy trinity will exist forever, people like playing tanks, dps or healers. I think ZoS just need to pull their fingers out and get the class rebalance done. I would love to see more variety in classes, but for that we need rugelar dungeons where mechanics split the group up a lot more.

Nephimana · December 2017

I agree with what everyone has said, people have played this game and worked it down to maths for the most efficient way to play. That being said, this maths should have a place and it should only be in score running groups (and the exception of a few trials and dungeons that have timers like MoL Rakkhat and etc.)
I think any build is fine in a trial as long as they meet the dps requirement. "But I want to have fun, not care about numbers." Then you're asking the group to carry you. If everyone in the trial had the same attidute, you're going to have a hard time and wipe a lot.

But dungeons, sure, do whatever you want, maths belongs somewhere and it shouldn't belong in casual content. (As long as it doesn't come at the expense of others and your group).

Icy_Waffles · December 2017

.... so basically you are upset because the builds you made to be different are not as effective and other players don't want to deal with it?

Im mixed on this. On ine hand, I understand the desire to be different and give props to creativity. On the other hand the "meta" is the meta for a reason. A bow and bow warden is not going to provide as much utility as dw, same as 2h sword, nor will it be as much damage. A healer that isn't a templar is not going to be as useful as the ols faithful.

I get the desire for diversity, and the desire to have old builds (like a sap tank) work like they did in their former glory, but we have to role with the changes. I know if I get on my dk tank and some warden with 2 bows comes in for dps, its gonna tick me off bc its gonna be a slower run on everyone else for the warden to have his build. The other dos needs to be even better, the healer has more work, and the tank has to frantically control all the fighting for longer.

GrigorijMalahevich · December 2017

Why people use meta sets?

Anyone can play anything, but if you want to be competitive you need to have best in slot sets and whatever.

Well buddy, do you play ESO on touch pad notebook?

In shooter games you run around with pistols or try to choose best weapon?

P.S. a lot of people don’t play meta. I play my own builds in pvp and pve and try to not use mechanics that I think are “bad”.

Qbiken · December 2017

Well, sometimes the "meta" is hidden for the majority of the players and no one cares about whether X-set or Y-set is the strongest until some streamer makes a video about it.

Just take Kodi´s new video where he shows his "new" stam-sorc build where he uses Prisoner´s Rags set together with 7th Legion and Trollking (he also talks about using it with Werewolf but says it will probably come in future videos). That particular setup (aside from the Asylum 2hander) has been the "WW-meta" since many, many months back. It synergises very well with everything that has to do with stam-sorc. I wouldn´t be surprised if people soon will post threads about Prisoner´s Rags-set being "OP/broken".....

Another example was the "classic" stamDK setup with 7th Legion + WW hide + Bloodspawn/Malubeth, that was created just after 1T (even tho Lemur & Co was known for exploiting a lot of *** with their builds they started some kind of "meta"). It wasn´t until a few months ago when people started for real to QQ on the forums that ppl thought it was a problem with this new "meta". Now that almost everyone knows about this setup, I rarely see anyone QQ about it anymore for being a "broken meta"

The people I usually see complaining about "meta" destroying the game are those players who´s been playing a really long time, and invested a lot of gold, time and effort into their main builds, and suddenly they´re not competitive anymore since the new "meta" is stronger than their own previous builds/setups, and it´s easier to QQ on the forums than to change your setup and adapt to the new "meta". I can be wrong but it´s just my opinion about it...

My point is that "meta" builds doesn´t hurt the game unless you really want it to. And sometimes the creation of a new "meta" is good because it often shows what needs to be tweaked in the game, the issue arise when people QQ about meta just because their old builds isn´t as effective as it used to be.

Azurya · December 2017

there is squirrel on the trees behind you, you should have killed it before starting recording
it always causes disturbing interferences

and META is the goal from ESO to go

not mine, I run niche-builds and having fun that way (they are really good and do well)

and I don´t mind fighting a boss solo even if it takes an hour or more, perhaps cauze I played WoW before and did the same there
BUT I think the younger players have the patience to fight their way to do really good, so all go meta

I pinned it for me, about a year ago, running metas till that moment, that it was a long time going on without having fun and enjoying myself, and decided to have my fun like I had it in WoW and so I did!

Dream it possible, and then go for it!

Gahmerdohn · December 2017

Well, guys maybe I've expressed myself poorly (which is likely ) or some of you didn't try to understand at all (also likely). Either way, I feel sorry for that.

I'm not saying that people should accept crapy builds and lose their time doing this.

I'm saying that there are people like me that are working hard on their build and actually do a great job as healer, damage dealers, or tanks but sometimes they don't have the opportunity to show it because they are rejected before that.
If you still think that a sorc healer or a warden healer will only make you lose your time you probably don't know the game you're playing.

on the other side it's totally normal that in any game you have "the most efficient build" for people that want to play to the competitive part of the game and it's perfectly fine but what is happening in our communities it that :

The most efficient build for leaderboard become the only acceptable build to play in trials or hard dungeon even if the leaderboard is not the goal ... That is where the problem of close mind starts.

The point is just that: the community should be more open to other efficient possibility and work with the beautiful diversity the game offers.

Integral1900 · December 2017

In the context of eso meta is simply the most efficient way of achieving what you want to do. Therefore each person has a diffrent one. For example, I used to run vet trials and dungeons all the time. That desire is gone as the endless bickering of others killed my love for it, no one ever criticised my contribution but I’m here to have fun not listen to people bicker for hours on end. but I still adore the game, my meta now is finding the perfect balance between healer, tank and dps while still allowing my charecters to be fun.

The game is diverse, there is room for all... just not in vet trials...

Joy_Division · December 2017

Gahmerdohn wrote: »

The most efficient build for leaderboard become the only acceptable build to play in trials or hard dungeon even if the leaderboard is not the goal ... That is where the problem of close mind starts.

The point is just that: the community should be more open to other efficient possibility and work with the beautiful diversity the game offers.

I've played a Nord healer since Launch and don't get kicked from groups. I read posts like this all the time about people getting kicked from groups before content starts and I'm sorry that's not universal. If people are getting kicked it's likely because they just aren't very good and that's 95% a L2P issue, not because ZoS tilted the game mechanics against the people getting kicked.

If your goal is to be the #1 on the Leaderboard, well then guess what, in order to beat the 100s of people competing for that said spot, then, yes, every teeny tiny percentage point of efficiency matters. So no nord healers. It's unreasonable to expect everything to be perfectly balanced so every class-race-gear combination can be 100% equivalent.

But I'm guessing most people's goals are not to be #1, rather it's to field competitive builds that can complete content and have fun doing so. So as long as you don't bring a heavy armor sword and shield DPS to vet Maw, you pretty much have a world of options. Well maybe even then, I got Fawless Conqueror on a wrong race heavy armor build that used Sword and Shield

Don;t tell me playing a non-meta build is impractical because I've done it. If you want to be different and break the meta, it's your responsibility to play the build well enough to demonstrate to people that you're not the reason the group is wiping. Go ahead and bring the double bow build, just put up good DPS parses if anyone gets snarky.

Now, one thing I can get behind is that Zos should make it so there are no "bad" options that have trouble competing. Magicka Warden DPS is too hard and too far beneath the baseline of the other classes. Nord race offers nothing of use because it's pigeonholed as a tank and other races do that better. Earthgore set is so beyond the effectiveness of other monster sets, you'd be a fool to run in a large group without it.

Icy_Waffles · December 2017

Gahmerdohn wrote: »

Well, guys maybe I've expressed myself poorly (which is likely ) or some of you didn't try to understand at all (also likely). Either way, I feel sorry for that.

I'm not saying that people should accept crapy builds and lose their time doing this.

I'm saying that there are people like me that are working hard on their build and actually do a great job as healer, damage dealers, or tanks but sometimes they don't have the opportunity to show it because they are rejected before that.
If you still think that a sorc healer or a warden healer will only make you lose your time you probably don't know the game you're playing.

on the other side it's totally normal that in any game you have "the most efficient build" for people that want to play to the competitive part of the game and it's perfectly fine but what is happening in our communities it that :

The most efficient build for leaderboard become the only acceptable build to play in trials or hard dungeon even if the leaderboard is not the goal ... That is where the problem of close mind starts.

The point is just that: the community should be more open to other efficient possibility and work with the beautiful diversity the game offers.

No way. If im tanking and you are a dps, better get that locked down and do your job. I dont want to waste my time so you can be diverse.

magictucktuck · December 2017

Joy_Division wrote: »

Gahmerdohn wrote: »

The most efficient build for leaderboard become the only acceptable build to play in trials or hard dungeon even if the leaderboard is not the goal ... That is where the problem of close mind starts.

The point is just that: the community should be more open to other efficient possibility and work with the beautiful diversity the game offers.

I've played a Nord healer since Launch and don't get kicked from groups. I read posts like this all the time about people getting kicked from groups before content starts and I'm sorry that's not universal. If people are getting kicked it's likely because they just aren't very good and that's 95% a L2P issue, not because ZoS tilted the game mechanics against the people getting kicked.

If your goal is to be the #1 on the Leaderboard, well then guess what, in order to beat the 100s of people competing for that said spot, then, yes, every teeny tiny percentage point of efficiency matters. So no nord healers. It's unreasonable to expect everything to be perfectly balanced so every class-race-gear combination can be 100% equivalent.

But I'm guessing most people's goals are not to be #1, rather it's to field competitive builds that can complete content and have fun doing so. So as long as you don't bring a heavy armor sword and shield DPS to vet Maw, you pretty much have a world of options. Well maybe even then, I got Fawless Conqueror on a wrong race heavy armor build that used Sword and Shield Don;t tell me playing a non-meta build is impractical because I've done it. If you want to be different and break the meta, it's your responsibility to play the build well enough to demonstrate to people that you're not the reason the group is wiping. Go ahead and bring the double bow build, just put up good DPS parses if anyone gets snarky.

Now, one thing I can get behind is that Zos should make it so there are no "bad" options that have trouble competing. Magicka Warden DPS is too hard and too far beneath the baseline of the other classes. Nord race offers nothing of use because it's pigeonholed as a tank and other races do that better. Earthgore set is so beyond the effectiveness of other monster sets, you'd be a fool to run in a large group without it.

Being a non optimal race i don't think he is talking about, people don't usually kick for that, its a little different. and the mitigation from nord for a healer is still useful. in a very small way, just like you could do any vet trial with a nord healer or redguard healer.

also VMA is not dependant on other players, it totally doable on a heavy armor toon it just takes a lot longer, but the point is that you dont have people that need to go take care of their kids or go to work or go to bed for work in the morning because you decided to go slow. so VMA you can do it how ever you want as no one is dependent on you.

Eiagra · December 2017

One of the things I wish I could find is, rather than a bunch of sites with builds and meta builds, a site that just has every ability and set with information JUST on that so we can create a toolkit rather than a build.

Different abilities are going to be more useful in different situations for different people and playstyles. But most sites out there make that hard to parse because of the meta. A lot of sites also don't go into a lot of detail as to why certain skills or passives are used, only that they are.

Well, why? If I get Empower off of Solar Barrage, why won't that work on my Jabs? What will enhance my Jabs? What about my Sun Fire? Meta sites don't really go into that in much detail.

I've used the meta as a sort of baseline on what works for someone, then try to dissect that to figure out what will work for me. But it would be a lot easier if instead of just one meta I had a website with an entire toolkit to work from with all the information I needed to roll my own.

Maryal · December 2017

Which came first ... the players or the meta?

When the majority of players have become accustomed to a certain way/method of doing something, you end up with 'meta.'
You can say that meta is about mathematics, but it's really more about 'mindset' or what the majority of players think about something (i.e., what makes a good build, or a good group, etc.,).

People tend to take the path of least resistance. If a certain build or certain mechanics are shown to be successful when trying to achieve something, others will follow suite (as opposed to re-inventing the wheel, so to speak). People tend to resist change (if it's not broken, don't even think about trying to fix it).

But, how can anyone ever achieve anything really great simply by being like everyone else?

Minno · December 2017

Qbiken wrote: »

Well, sometimes the "meta" is hidden for the majority of the players and no one cares about whether X-set or Y-set is the strongest until some streamer makes a video about it.

Just take Kodi´s new video where he shows his "new" stam-sorc build where he uses Prisoner´s Rags set together with 7th Legion and Trollking (he also talks about using it with Werewolf but says it will probably come in future videos). That particular setup (aside from the Asylum 2hander) has been the "WW-meta" since many, many months back. It synergises very well with everything that has to do with stam-sorc. I wouldn´t be surprised if people soon will post threads about Prisoner´s Rags-set being "OP/broken".....

Another example was the "classic" stamDK setup with 7th Legion + WW hide + Bloodspawn/Malubeth, that was created just after 1T (even tho Lemur & Co was known for exploiting a lot of *** with their builds they started some kind of "meta"). It wasn´t until a few months ago when people started for real to QQ on the forums that ppl thought it was a problem with this new "meta". Now that almost everyone knows about this setup, I rarely see anyone QQ about it anymore for being a "broken meta"

The people I usually see complaining about "meta" destroying the game are those players who´s been playing a really long time, and invested a lot of gold, time and effort into their main builds, and suddenly they´re not competitive anymore since the new "meta" is stronger than their own previous builds/setups, and it´s easier to QQ on the forums than to change your setup and adapt to the new "meta". I can be wrong but it´s just my opinion about it...

My point is that "meta" builds doesn´t hurt the game unless you really want it to. And sometimes the creation of a new "meta" is good because it often shows what needs to be tweaked in the game, the issue arise when people QQ about meta just because their old builds isn´t as effective as it used to be.

It is actually fairly balanced for a "regen" set. When you sprint, you are locked out of abilities and are suspect to CC while also being locked out of your stam regen. It is great for any build looking to use sprint for mobility and is fairly clunky to proc in combat (so many players might be put off but that). I applaud Kodi for using the set, prisoners needs more love!

But good luck farming for the pieces lol. The jewels can't drop from dolmens (there aren't any dolmens lol), the two hander sword has a terrible drop rate, and you still are fighting RNG with the other cold harbor sets (mostly blessed). Even treasure maps had a terrible drop chance. Believe me I tried, and I have a full 5 piece bodyset/gold rings/3 2h swords and 1h sword for my magplar.

Xvorg · December 2017

Minno wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Well, sometimes the "meta" is hidden for the majority of the players and no one cares about whether X-set or Y-set is the strongest until some streamer makes a video about it.

Just take Kodi´s new video where he shows his "new" stam-sorc build where he uses Prisoner´s Rags set together with 7th Legion and Trollking (he also talks about using it with Werewolf but says it will probably come in future videos). That particular setup (aside from the Asylum 2hander) has been the "WW-meta" since many, many months back. It synergises very well with everything that has to do with stam-sorc. I wouldn´t be surprised if people soon will post threads about Prisoner´s Rags-set being "OP/broken".....

Another example was the "classic" stamDK setup with 7th Legion + WW hide + Bloodspawn/Malubeth, that was created just after 1T (even tho Lemur & Co was known for exploiting a lot of *** with their builds they started some kind of "meta"). It wasn´t until a few months ago when people started for real to QQ on the forums that ppl thought it was a problem with this new "meta". Now that almost everyone knows about this setup, I rarely see anyone QQ about it anymore for being a "broken meta"

The people I usually see complaining about "meta" destroying the game are those players who´s been playing a really long time, and invested a lot of gold, time and effort into their main builds, and suddenly they´re not competitive anymore since the new "meta" is stronger than their own previous builds/setups, and it´s easier to QQ on the forums than to change your setup and adapt to the new "meta". I can be wrong but it´s just my opinion about it...

My point is that "meta" builds doesn´t hurt the game unless you really want it to. And sometimes the creation of a new "meta" is good because it often shows what needs to be tweaked in the game, the issue arise when people QQ about meta just because their old builds isn´t as effective as it used to be.

It is actually fairly balanced for a "regen" set. When you sprint, you are locked out of abilities and are suspect to CC while also being locked out of your stam regen. It is great for any build looking to use sprint for mobility and is fairly clunky to proc in combat (so many players might be put off but that). I applaud Kodi for using the set, prisoners needs more love!

But good luck farming for the pieces lol. The jewels can't drop from dolmens (there aren't any dolmens lol), the two hander sword has a terrible drop rate, and you still are fighting RNG with the other cold harbor sets (mostly blessed). Even treasure maps had a terrible drop chance. Believe me I tried, and I have a full 5 piece bodyset/gold rings/3 2h swords and 1h sword for my magplar.

Rags is the new Stygian

Anyway, there are quite a lot ideas that can work as good as Meta, but people is too lazy to try them

Minno · December 2017

Xvorg wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Well, sometimes the "meta" is hidden for the majority of the players and no one cares about whether X-set or Y-set is the strongest until some streamer makes a video about it.

Just take Kodi´s new video where he shows his "new" stam-sorc build where he uses Prisoner´s Rags set together with 7th Legion and Trollking (he also talks about using it with Werewolf but says it will probably come in future videos). That particular setup (aside from the Asylum 2hander) has been the "WW-meta" since many, many months back. It synergises very well with everything that has to do with stam-sorc. I wouldn´t be surprised if people soon will post threads about Prisoner´s Rags-set being "OP/broken".....

Another example was the "classic" stamDK setup with 7th Legion + WW hide + Bloodspawn/Malubeth, that was created just after 1T (even tho Lemur & Co was known for exploiting a lot of *** with their builds they started some kind of "meta"). It wasn´t until a few months ago when people started for real to QQ on the forums that ppl thought it was a problem with this new "meta". Now that almost everyone knows about this setup, I rarely see anyone QQ about it anymore for being a "broken meta"

The people I usually see complaining about "meta" destroying the game are those players who´s been playing a really long time, and invested a lot of gold, time and effort into their main builds, and suddenly they´re not competitive anymore since the new "meta" is stronger than their own previous builds/setups, and it´s easier to QQ on the forums than to change your setup and adapt to the new "meta". I can be wrong but it´s just my opinion about it...

My point is that "meta" builds doesn´t hurt the game unless you really want it to. And sometimes the creation of a new "meta" is good because it often shows what needs to be tweaked in the game, the issue arise when people QQ about meta just because their old builds isn´t as effective as it used to be.

It is actually fairly balanced for a "regen" set. When you sprint, you are locked out of abilities and are suspect to CC while also being locked out of your stam regen. It is great for any build looking to use sprint for mobility and is fairly clunky to proc in combat (so many players might be put off but that). I applaud Kodi for using the set, prisoners needs more love!

But good luck farming for the pieces lol. The jewels can't drop from dolmens (there aren't any dolmens lol), the two hander sword has a terrible drop rate, and you still are fighting RNG with the other cold harbor sets (mostly blessed). Even treasure maps had a terrible drop chance. Believe me I tried, and I have a full 5 piece bodyset/gold rings/3 2h swords and 1h sword for my magplar.

Rags is the new Stygian

Anyway, there are quite a lot ideas that can work as good as Meta, but people is too lazy to try them

I don't blame them for being lazy either. Some of us only have an hour or two to play video games each week, most aren't going to farm that sharp sword to find out the set doesn't work like it says on paper. Right to the meta sets/classes means less time trying to figure out pve grinds/sets and more time learning how to play the classes.

Xvorg · December 2017

Minno wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Well, sometimes the "meta" is hidden for the majority of the players and no one cares about whether X-set or Y-set is the strongest until some streamer makes a video about it.

Just take Kodi´s new video where he shows his "new" stam-sorc build where he uses Prisoner´s Rags set together with 7th Legion and Trollking (he also talks about using it with Werewolf but says it will probably come in future videos). That particular setup (aside from the Asylum 2hander) has been the "WW-meta" since many, many months back. It synergises very well with everything that has to do with stam-sorc. I wouldn´t be surprised if people soon will post threads about Prisoner´s Rags-set being "OP/broken".....

Another example was the "classic" stamDK setup with 7th Legion + WW hide + Bloodspawn/Malubeth, that was created just after 1T (even tho Lemur & Co was known for exploiting a lot of *** with their builds they started some kind of "meta"). It wasn´t until a few months ago when people started for real to QQ on the forums that ppl thought it was a problem with this new "meta". Now that almost everyone knows about this setup, I rarely see anyone QQ about it anymore for being a "broken meta"

The people I usually see complaining about "meta" destroying the game are those players who´s been playing a really long time, and invested a lot of gold, time and effort into their main builds, and suddenly they´re not competitive anymore since the new "meta" is stronger than their own previous builds/setups, and it´s easier to QQ on the forums than to change your setup and adapt to the new "meta". I can be wrong but it´s just my opinion about it...

My point is that "meta" builds doesn´t hurt the game unless you really want it to. And sometimes the creation of a new "meta" is good because it often shows what needs to be tweaked in the game, the issue arise when people QQ about meta just because their old builds isn´t as effective as it used to be.

It is actually fairly balanced for a "regen" set. When you sprint, you are locked out of abilities and are suspect to CC while also being locked out of your stam regen. It is great for any build looking to use sprint for mobility and is fairly clunky to proc in combat (so many players might be put off but that). I applaud Kodi for using the set, prisoners needs more love!

But good luck farming for the pieces lol. The jewels can't drop from dolmens (there aren't any dolmens lol), the two hander sword has a terrible drop rate, and you still are fighting RNG with the other cold harbor sets (mostly blessed). Even treasure maps had a terrible drop chance. Believe me I tried, and I have a full 5 piece bodyset/gold rings/3 2h swords and 1h sword for my magplar.

Rags is the new Stygian

Anyway, there are quite a lot ideas that can work as good as Meta, but people is too lazy to try them

I don't blame them for being lazy either. Some of us only have an hour or two to play video games each week, most aren't going to farm that sharp sword to find out the set doesn't work like it says on paper. Right to the meta sets/classes means less time trying to figure out pve grinds/sets and more time learning how to play the classes.

That's true. Not all people is fond of theorycrafting, they want to jump into cyrodiil/trials and play the game...

Liofa · December 2017

Gahmerdohn wrote: »

Thanks to people like ESO daily and Sherman we have more options to build interesting and diverse characters even though they receive a lot of hate for that even though they're not hurting someone just for wanting more diversity in builds ...

The person you thank uploaded a video called ''Taking Care of Gilliam's Toxic Mistake'' . I will not link this video here because it contains so many offensive words against Gilliam (who is a known theorycrafter) , my post might get deleted . You can find the video in ESO Daily channel .

The amount of stupidity in that video is so high , I was fairly sure it was just a troll . Sadly , it is not . Anyway , let me quote you again .

they're not hurting someone

I don't know what were you thinking while writing this especially knowing that this video is still in his channel , assuming you follow him . So please , before you decide to advertise a Youtube channel , do some research .

I did what I said and watched some videos before judging . I watched the Stamina Healer build video . I also noticed an another video that was uploaded on the same day . Here and here . You can literally see him getting the ''Dungeon Healer'' achievement on 20:20 . This was on a normal dungeon after failing the veteran version . Basically he tests his ''meta breaking'' builds on normal dungeons and releases a video the same day and says ''throwing the meta on trash'' , at 16:10 exactly .

My point is , this guy is making a build that barely works in a normal dungeon and trash-talks about meta . There is absolutely no way someone can take this seriously . So , no . Meta is not hurting the game . Those people who create the meta does countless hours of testing , doing math and everything . Testing on paper , in end-game trials and hardest contents in the game . Then they release videos/guides so that people can use the best builds . If you can't see the difference , I have nothing else to say .

Qbiken · December 2017

Minno wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Well, sometimes the "meta" is hidden for the majority of the players and no one cares about whether X-set or Y-set is the strongest until some streamer makes a video about it.

Just take Kodi´s new video where he shows his "new" stam-sorc build where he uses Prisoner´s Rags set together with 7th Legion and Trollking (he also talks about using it with Werewolf but says it will probably come in future videos). That particular setup (aside from the Asylum 2hander) has been the "WW-meta" since many, many months back. It synergises very well with everything that has to do with stam-sorc. I wouldn´t be surprised if people soon will post threads about Prisoner´s Rags-set being "OP/broken".....

Another example was the "classic" stamDK setup with 7th Legion + WW hide + Bloodspawn/Malubeth, that was created just after 1T (even tho Lemur & Co was known for exploiting a lot of *** with their builds they started some kind of "meta"). It wasn´t until a few months ago when people started for real to QQ on the forums that ppl thought it was a problem with this new "meta". Now that almost everyone knows about this setup, I rarely see anyone QQ about it anymore for being a "broken meta"

The people I usually see complaining about "meta" destroying the game are those players who´s been playing a really long time, and invested a lot of gold, time and effort into their main builds, and suddenly they´re not competitive anymore since the new "meta" is stronger than their own previous builds/setups, and it´s easier to QQ on the forums than to change your setup and adapt to the new "meta". I can be wrong but it´s just my opinion about it...

My point is that "meta" builds doesn´t hurt the game unless you really want it to. And sometimes the creation of a new "meta" is good because it often shows what needs to be tweaked in the game, the issue arise when people QQ about meta just because their old builds isn´t as effective as it used to be.

It is actually fairly balanced for a "regen" set. When you sprint, you are locked out of abilities and are suspect to CC while also being locked out of your stam regen. It is great for any build looking to use sprint for mobility and is fairly clunky to proc in combat (so many players might be put off but that). I applaud Kodi for using the set, prisoners needs more love!

But good luck farming for the pieces lol. The jewels can't drop from dolmens (there aren't any dolmens lol), the two hander sword has a terrible drop rate, and you still are fighting RNG with the other cold harbor sets (mostly blessed). Even treasure maps had a terrible drop chance. Believe me I tried, and I have a full 5 piece bodyset/gold rings/3 2h swords and 1h sword for my magplar.

I´ve been using Prisoner for like 3-4 months now. Works amazing on my werewolf. Personally I agree that it´s a balanced set (due to the points you bring up), but as soon as someone are successful with a certain gear combo, ppl call for nerfs.....

Drakkdjinn · December 2017

TLDR; OP & Skyrim Fans Don't Understand the necessary differences between single player and multi-player RPGs.

...and obviously bought into ZoS' shallow marketing hype. Even then I don't see the issue, you're still totally free to theorcraft, build and run eccentric builds in this game in a solo context just like with previous ES titles -- expecting them to perform as well or better than builds designed specifically to optimize a role based on deep understanding of game mechanics & design in the context of group content in an MMO, however, is just unreasonable QQ.

Nothing new to see here, move along.

umagon · December 2017

Gahmerdohn wrote: »

-When I see that the situation of my NB tank gone worst and worst each patch and no love has been showed I'm shocked...

My tankblade as become much stronger over the last few patches. I never did trials but in pvp and vet dungeons it seems to do fine. It’s not even optimized for pve but it still functions well. Most of my builds for it people would consider unusual, but they work really well for their designed purpose.

Piojo · December 2017

As a player who went from a questor to a trial experience, I think the biggest misconception many people have is that meta is being toted as being better than other builds. What I have found is that meta is not better—it is optimal based on game math.

The key I have learned is optimal, not better.

Folks in trials want efficiency, and there is room for folks to do trials with builds that are alternative to the meta ~if everyone agrees on non standard set ups in trials~. But players who want to experience trials in this way (that’s more exploratory and fun, as opposed to efficient) have to find those like-minded people and build that type of community.

LapisLazuli99 · December 2017

I mostly agree with the topic at hand but I outright always disregard the Meta of a game and always take the path I think will be the most fun. I kinda find it usefull when people hate on me for not fitting the current Meta because its a really fast way to figure out they wouldn't have been much fun to play with and that defeats my understanding of playing a GAME

Lucky for us while some of the late endgame content can be rough prior to having a fully equipped over cp160 character none of it has forced me to have to conform to more agreeable play styles. So I say play for fun, play for comfort and be more concerned with your enjoyment than anyone else's

Piojo · December 2017

Sorry, should have included this in my earlier post:

I think it’s a difference in expectations of game culture. When Everquest and similar games were new, guilds employed tactics together to defeat raids and raid bosses. Folks who tinker with optimal builds for trials on eso are thinking about the logic of the game. I loved my experiences with eqoa on the ps2. It taught me a great deal about working together to beat difficult bosses.

But it’s a different “raid” trial culture now—at least on ps4 NA.

For people who explore or theorycraft builds, or don’t care about builds at all, it’s a satisfying g way to experience the game world. That eso has that flexibility is a good thing imo.

Malitias · December 2017

I've just started playing again as a Nightblade Tank (lvl20 so far) and after watching the video I'm kinda scared whether or not it's actually a viable thing to do later on in the game..? I haven't watched any guides and I don't really know anything about the meta.

witchdoctor · December 2017

Malitias wrote: »

I've just started playing again as a Nightblade Tank (lvl20 so far) and after watching the video I'm kinda scared whether or not it's actually a viable thing to do later on in the game..? I haven't watched any guides and I don't really know anything about the meta.

I have a tank spec for my stamBlade. It works fine, and if hella fun. For the record: I have done up to and including vet dungeons. I run trials on her, but as DPS.

Each class has its flavour for tanking. NB, I find, is a bit more of an aggressive tank, whereas DK is more of your traditional tank.

Really, the biggest 'loss' for non-DK tanks is: 1) DK's chains, and 2) DK's great resource regeneration passives.

Have fun with your NB tank!

Lord Xanhorn · December 2017

What you are describing is common in every single MMO. ESO is no different. If they got rid of the trinity system then PVE would be dead. You need no other proof than to look at PVE in GW2. Its terrible in an otherwise great game.