WrathOfInnos wrote: »@Beardimus Thanks for the reply. I thought dual wield mag sorcs were extinct. Way to keep the species going, you deserve a buff.
I was mostly basing this post on stam builds, that currently avoid swords like the META plague. I am glad you brought up the point that magicka melee builds would like this change as well. There is not really a spot for magicka melee in end game content anymore, with stamina DPS being so much better. Maybe this change would be a slight step toward Mag DK and Mag Temp being worthy of precious melee spots.
WrathOfInnos wrote: »@Beardimus Thanks for the reply. I thought dual wield mag sorcs were extinct. Way to keep the species going, you deserve a buff.
I was mostly basing this post on stam builds, that currently avoid swords like the META plague. I am glad you brought up the point that magicka melee builds would like this change as well. There is not really a spot for magicka melee in end game content anymore, with stamina DPS being so much better. Maybe this change would be a slight step toward Mag DK and Mag Temp being worthy of precious melee spots.
I can agree. Can you do a comparison between swords and staffs? Despite the diminishing returns for Stam builds looking to use swords, mag builds have to slot a destro ability and can only buff up one aspect of DMG versus swords that will buff both direct/dots.
WrathOfInnos wrote: »@Beardimus Thanks for the reply. I thought dual wield mag sorcs were extinct. Way to keep the species going, you deserve a buff.
I was mostly basing this post on stam builds, that currently avoid swords like the META plague. I am glad you brought up the point that magicka melee builds would like this change as well. There is not really a spot for magicka melee in end game content anymore, with stamina DPS being so much better. Maybe this change would be a slight step toward Mag DK and Mag Temp being worthy of precious melee spots.
I can agree. Can you do a comparison between swords and staffs? Despite the diminishing returns for Stam builds looking to use swords, mag builds have to slot a destro ability and can only buff up one aspect of DMG versus swords that will buff both direct/dots.
Though staves are more focused on the dichotomy single target vs AoE.
In fact, DKs flame based aoe skills should get a big bonus running a lit staff (Standard, Engulging, Talons and Cinderstorm)
WrathOfInnos wrote: »@Beardimus Thanks for the reply. I thought dual wield mag sorcs were extinct. Way to keep the species going, you deserve a buff.
I was mostly basing this post on stam builds, that currently avoid swords like the META plague. I am glad you brought up the point that magicka melee builds would like this change as well. There is not really a spot for magicka melee in end game content anymore, with stamina DPS being so much better. Maybe this change would be a slight step toward Mag DK and Mag Temp being worthy of precious melee spots.
I can agree. Can you do a comparison between swords and staffs? Despite the diminishing returns for Stam builds looking to use swords, mag builds have to slot a destro ability and can only buff up one aspect of DMG versus swords that will buff both direct/dots.
Get in the line, behind bow and warden buffs. Expected delivery around 2019WrathOfInnos wrote: »ZOS_Wrobel Any chance of this making it into the next update? Do you agree that sword is underperforming?
Get in the line, behind bow and warden buffs. Expected delivery around 2019WrathOfInnos wrote: »ZOS_Wrobel Any chance of this making it into the next update? Do you agree that sword is underperforming?
But regarding the post, swords are underperforming and will continue to do so unless ZoS stops putting additive % modifiers on things. Even if they buff them to match current damage, next year they will be underperforming again because you will have more CP. Same goes for bows and staves
WrathOfInnos wrote: »Get in the line, behind bow and warden buffs. Expected delivery around 2019WrathOfInnos wrote: »ZOS_Wrobel Any chance of this making it into the next update? Do you agree that sword is underperforming?
But regarding the post, swords are underperforming and will continue to do so unless ZoS stops putting additive % modifiers on things. Even if they buff them to match current damage, next year they will be underperforming again because you will have more CP. Same goes for bows and staves
Good point, additive bonuses are the root cause of sword becoming weak. Even if it were multiplicative, it should be increased from 2.5% to 3% damage done per sword.
If keeping it additive, maybe jumping up to 5% would be best to slightly future-proof it as we get more CPs. Although 4.5% per sword seems the most balanced right now, once we get up into the ~800 CP range it woukd be falling behind other weapons again. With 75 points in mighty, and 72 points in Master at Arms and Thaumaturge, along with minor Berserk, 5% per sword would effectively be 3.4% DPS, so right in line with daggers. If you add Major and Minor Slayer then a 5% sword really only adds 3.0% DPS. This CP spread is actually possible right now, but would be neglecting Crit Damage (only 11 points left for this). It becomes more feasible with each CP increase.
@WrathOfInnos love the summary here, great thread and yeah I'm hanging on to them swords. In terms of end game that's my PvP / BG setup and I do ok, but I know I'm nerfing myself a touch.
My primary reasons for stubbornly remaining are - I like the committed burst playstyle, 5:5:2 setup, I like the image style (I.e. Battlemage rather than Wizard with wands) and rather sadly I originally went to it as the damn lag on bar swapping it was hard to tell what bar you were on lol. So all very woolly reasons from the get go rather than any meta chasing!
I also was a committed Overload build from the off, but the Ulti change to 500 wrecked than fun. And every patch they been nerfing DW, direct nerfs or indirect buffs to staves even killing off webs as a spammable etc.
Hence I'm bitter people say Sorcs haven't been nerfed, I have haha!!
WrathOfInnos wrote: »@SodanTok You make a good point about bows. If the Hawk Eye passive is additive as well (have not personally tested this), then it's claimed 25% increase really falls somewhere in the range of about 15-19%. This could be one of the reasons pure bow builds are not viable in PVE, along with the fact that Hawk Eye does not affect non-bow skills at all.
For your point about moving the sword bonus to be more like vulnerability, I'm not sure how that would work. It would be a timed debuff? If one person used a sword would the whole raid see the increased damage? If so swords would become a group buff weapon, and only 1 person in a group should use them. While an interesting concept, thats not exactly what I was going for here.
As for PVP, I don't really see a 3% damage increase to swords as being a problem. They will still not beat maces against tanky builds. They will still not beat daggers for burst builds (maybe if target has very high crit resistance). They will still not beat axes for DoT builds. The only place swords are preferred is against targets with damage shields, since pen and crit mean nothing here.
As a primarily magicka player, who depends on shields a lot, I would be ok with taking 3% more damage from someone dual wielding swords. They would have chosen that weapon type to counter my build, and would lose out against heavily armored builds as a result.
Balancing swords with other weapon types helps everyone, stam and magicka. Right now it seems like the only ones using swords are magicka builds (and still rarely), because the other weapon types are so much better for stam builds. Let's bring them back for stamina, I know my stam warden would like to be able to use his dual Briarheart swords without their unique bonus getting gutted by other buffs and passives.
Just wanted to correct a couple of numbers here.
I made an excel sheet of these weapons that I actually verified with ingame testing on a dummy.
It is right that swords are definetely behind the other weapons in terms of damage, but keep in mind that their increase also applies to proc sets and monster sets, which critical chance from daggers does not. This is obviously not enough to close the gap.
Your calculation of penetration is definitely off, the maximum amount you'll get is 3.8%, with only the Base amount of 100 physical penetration. Your own penetration doesn't change the benefit, only debuffs will.