How can you tell difference between extraordinary animation cancelling skills and macros?

Vaoh · July 2017

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the sitiation, but it sounds like you just came across a decent player. It is extremely easy to cast the combo you mentioned.

Light Attacks are part of muscle memory and should be used inbetween every skill cast including shields. After that it is pressing a few buttons one after another. It is not proof of a macro being used when someone simply presses a few buttons in a row consistently in ESO.....

I am on console and do this without even thinking. A lot of times I'll even play without my skill bars showing on my screen because I memorize where my skills are binded to and never change them.

In endgame PvE, repetitive button pressing is significantly tougher due to the need for a DPS to use a rotation. At least on console, no macros are involved. We have many players who memorize their rotations really well.

rfennell_ESO · July 2017

brtomkin wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

The particular about it is how they do it all, while hopping and moving and animation cancelling everything. You never see them cast shield, you never see them cast anything for the most part.

When you add up all the keypresses they have to be doing to achieve what they are doing, all while moving, .........

There is one particular sorc on PS4 NA that matches this description of hopping around and precise timing/cancelling.... not sure how that player could be using macros on the PS4 though.

There are controllers that can be programmed with macros.

raasdal · July 2017

KingYogi415 wrote: »

LZH wrote: »

That isn't unusual at all.

0 seconds - Haunting Curse

1 second - Light attack + Force Pulse

2 seconds - Light attack + Crystal Frags

3 seconds - Light attack + Mages' Wrath

This also doesn't factor in how Sorc skills work. He could've put curse and Mages' Wrath on you before your fight even began but yet they would show up on your death report as if he used them in a row on you.

Also, just because he's under level 50 doesn't mean he's a noob. He could very well have max CP and just be playing on a new character.

But then how can I blame people macroslicing as the reason I die over my own lack of skill?

Please advise...

This man wins the thread.

OP got killed by a standard Sorc burst combo.

Stop yelling Macro or Cheater whenever someone does something you are not capable of doing yourself.

Oh, and stop believing the frigging deathrecap. That has been broken forever. Record your gameplay and rewatch it.

Joy_Division · July 2017

Xvorg wrote: »

cellobuddy wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Kneighbors wrote: »

So yesterday playing at BG's below level 50 there was one guy shooting 5 attacks within 3 seconds.
The sequence was always the same:
1) Haunting curse
2) Light attack
3) Force Pulse
4) Light attack
5) Crystal frag proc
6) Light attack
7) Endless fury

Now all this was happening within 3 seconds, Crystal Frag always came together with endless fury in fractions of seconds. Time after time. His normal score was 20 - 0. On encounter any player was dying within 3 seconds, only crystal frag+endless fury sequence was making over 10k damage.

I'm not newbie to the game and I do know how to animation cancel myself, and I can do same things within 7+ seconds. I honestly can't make this sequence in less than 5 seconds. I reported this guy for using macros, but coming from professional gaming I know for sure "cyberathletes" can perform even more amusing things.

My question is, how can you really tell the difference? To me it was looking like all these attacks are bound to 2-3 buttons for this guy. It actually seems alil strange to see someone playing below lvl 50 character and already knows his moves so well. Maybe he just copied the build he was playing with for 3 years, or maybe he is just supertalented, but in the end of the day this was ruining the game for 8 persons who were playing against him and at some point people started to leave as soon as they saw him in opposite team.

did he wpn swap while doing the combo? Did he use a shield?

If you fail to apply pressure to a sorc, they won't reapply their shield before cooldown runs out and they won't swap weapons(especially in the middle of their combo)

It's not the anwer I'm looking for... what I want to know is how a sorc keeps 4 offensive skills in one bar and if he has room for a defensive skill or buff

Endless fury
Crystal Frags
Curse
Crushing shock
Harness magicka

I've been using this bar for pretty much 2 and half years now.

Zendran · July 2017

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

The barrages of attacks you see from certain players are likely macros and in some cases macros + more.

The only defense you will see from them is "if it's possible manually" it's possible and you are wrong (ie they are just awesome).

The particular about it is how they do it all, while hopping and moving and animation cancelling everything. You never see them cast shield, you never see them cast anything for the most part.

When you add up all the keypresses they have to be doing to achieve what they are doing, all while moving, it becomes less likely it's legit and some measure of automation has been done. It's trivial to set up a macro to light attack and cast an ability and set it up so it occurs distinctly for every button on every bar. You will never get an admission of it's existence... it will just be the typical responses of l2p, git gud and assorted insults.

It's probably also possible to macro the crystal frags proc cast to the end of every light attack->ability->block cancel/bash.

/cue macros don't work in pvp defense.

Are you really saying that doing all of that actually requires macros? It's literally just muscle memory and hand placement. Example: Thumb rests on space bar and presses it over and over, middle finger swaps between w and s, ring finger on a, pointer on d. You can rebind roll dodge to caps lock so that you can rest your pinkie finger in between caps lock and ` for easy roll dodge/weapon swap. 1 -> use ring finger, 2 -> ring finger if moving forward/back, middle finger if moving sideways, 3 -> middle finger if moving sideways, index finger if forward/back, 4,5 -> index finger. Meanwhile of course your thumb is free the entire time for pressing spacebar constantly. Then you just add in your right hand which only has to press either left or right click and you're done.

I suppose if you know where someone has their skills you can eliminate the possibility fairly easily. For example, I can't really move right easily while pressing my 5 key due to finger placement so it happens very infrequently compared to other movement/ability combinations.

If you're really that convinced that someone is macroing, you can do what was mentioned above and check for lack of any millisecond variance in rotation via combat metrics rather than just eyeballing it. But I think if you did that, you'd find that the vast, vast majority of players are perfectly legit. I'm sure some players DO macro, but based on my experience of decently often being accused of cheating, it's likely far less than what people assume. Almost everyone has a story of someone reporting them for macros/cheating for the most ridiculous of reasons (ie stuff like hitting someone for 5 seconds straight and them claiming that it all occurred over a period of half a second).

Kneighbors · July 2017

Xvorg wrote: »

Kneighbors wrote: »

So yesterday playing at BG's below level 50 there was one guy shooting 5 attacks within 3 seconds.
The sequence was always the same:
1) Haunting curse
2) Light attack
3) Force Pulse
4) Light attack
5) Crystal frag proc
6) Light attack
7) Endless fury

Now all this was happening within 3 seconds, Crystal Frag always came together with endless fury in fractions of seconds. Time after time. His normal score was 20 - 0. On encounter any player was dying within 3 seconds, only crystal frag+endless fury sequence was making over 10k damage.

I'm not newbie to the game and I do know how to animation cancel myself, and I can do same things within 7+ seconds. I honestly can't make this sequence in less than 5 seconds. I reported this guy for using macros, but coming from professional gaming I know for sure "cyberathletes" can perform even more amusing things.

My question is, how can you really tell the difference? To me it was looking like all these attacks are bound to 2-3 buttons for this guy. It actually seems alil strange to see someone playing below lvl 50 character and already knows his moves so well. Maybe he just copied the build he was playing with for 3 years, or maybe he is just supertalented, but in the end of the day this was ruining the game for 8 persons who were playing against him and at some point people started to leave as soon as they saw him in opposite team.

did he wpn swap while doing the combo? Did he use a shield?

Man, my every encounter with him was ending within 3 seconds, mostly as soon as I was seeing his hp bar with nickname next thing I saw was death recap screen. I made video and slowmotioned it afterwards, there's such a mix of canceled animations that it looks like convulsions.

What made me really suspicious is that it was always the same combination. Yea, I realize that many players go with same pattern of attacks, but the timing was always perfect. With the lags of the game I'm struggling sometimes to change between bars without looking at them, such a perfection of moves simply amused me.

Zendran · July 2017

As for the OP, this sounds like the standard sorc rotation with the average amount of time for a decent sorc to pull it off.

Alphaa · July 2017

Hello again @Kneighbors

Just to clarify i am max CP and played mag sorc a hell of a lot. I do not use macros, i am just very good at that particular class.

P.s- i am the guy the OP is talking about.

Kneighbors · July 2017

Alphaa wrote: »

Hello again @Kneighbors

Just to clarify i am max CP and played mag sorc a hell of a lot. I do not use macros, i am just very good at that particular class.

P.s- i am the guy the OP is talking about.

The guy had a different username. But this is what made me wonder: to see someone like this at vet PvP game is ok, there are many people who play same class for years and know their build well. But to see someone with lvl 45 character is alil strange. What, you want to tell me you duplicated same character you've been playing for long time and started to lvl up same build you already have?

Alphaa · July 2017

Kneighbors wrote: »

Alphaa wrote: »

Hello again @Kneighbors

Just to clarify i am max CP and played mag sorc a hell of a lot. I do not use macros, i am just very good at that particular class.

P.s- i am the guy the OP is talking about.

The guy had a different username. But this is what made me wonder: to see someone like this at vet PvP game is ok, there are many people who play same class for years and know their build well. But to see someone with lvl 45 character is alil strange. What, you want to tell me you duplicated same character you've been playing for long time and started to lvl up same build you already have?

Yes that is what im telling you. I have played around 6 mag sorcs during my time in the non-vet pvp campaign to help the guild i am in and to teach people pvp that want to learn from early stages.

I dont use my @name here but i assure you it was me. You messaged me in game and i explained that i am max CP and played since beta.

FloppyTouch · July 2017

Pc macro race!

The_Shadowborn · July 2017

That is a simple sorc rotation, he had a build unlike most non vets so his dmg output will be higher than most non vets are used to. Your problem @Kneighbors is a ltp one not a he is cheating one.

Kneighbors · July 2017

The_Shadowborn wrote: »

That is a simple sorc rotation, he had a build unlike most non vets so his dmg output will be higher than most non vets are used to. Your problem @Kneighbors is a ltp one not a he is cheating one.

It's simple rotation but to make it with 200ms intervals all the time in no way is simple

Alphaa · July 2017

Kneighbors wrote: »

The_Shadowborn wrote: »

That is a simple sorc rotation, he had a build unlike most non vets so his dmg output will be higher than most non vets are used to. Your problem @Kneighbors is a ltp one not a he is cheating one.

It's simple rotation but to make it with 200ms intervals all the time in no way is simple

Its experience and practise.

rfennell_ESO · July 2017

Zendran wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

The barrages of attacks you see from certain players are likely macros and in some cases macros + more.

The only defense you will see from them is "if it's possible manually" it's possible and you are wrong (ie they are just awesome).

The particular about it is how they do it all, while hopping and moving and animation cancelling everything. You never see them cast shield, you never see them cast anything for the most part.

When you add up all the keypresses they have to be doing to achieve what they are doing, all while moving, it becomes less likely it's legit and some measure of automation has been done. It's trivial to set up a macro to light attack and cast an ability and set it up so it occurs distinctly for every button on every bar. You will never get an admission of it's existence... it will just be the typical responses of l2p, git gud and assorted insults.

It's probably also possible to macro the crystal frags proc cast to the end of every light attack->ability->block cancel/bash.

/cue macros don't work in pvp defense.

Are you really saying that doing all of that actually requires macros?

Well, to the point of the topic of the thread... No, it doesn't require macros at all. That's why it's not so easy to tell what's really up at times. There are certainly some players that can do all these things like a machine and there are certainly some players that have a machine doing it for them.

I'm not going to claim the high road, when I raided on my magicka sorc and the rotation was nothing but light attack->force pulse (well, the bulk of the rotation was that), I did use a macro and it worked 99% of the time. I did it mostly because it mind numbing to do it on a 10 minute boss fight.

For the most part the problems with animation cancelling revolve around how it benefits certain abilities and not all. It certainly can be easily used to throw a light attack before every offensive ability usage. It's a clear advantage to do so, even though it's against the TOS. It's also trivial to setup a macro to do it, there are even programs that can vary the delay so it's not obvious to log audits.

The point I'm making is that for some it can be done and done reliably... for others and those that can do it, it's a reduction of keypresses...

The challenge of "show us your hands" that has come up before regarding many a streamer still applies. None of them ever show you their hands in eso (they do in other games to show they are legit). Do I think many of them won't show their hands because they are using macros? You bet I do. Do I think it's every streamer? Nah, but I'm pretty suspicious of some that unerringly are able to in the most hectic of situations.

cellobuddy · July 2017

Xvorg wrote: »

cellobuddy wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Kneighbors wrote: »

So yesterday playing at BG's below level 50 there was one guy shooting 5 attacks within 3 seconds.
The sequence was always the same:
1) Haunting curse
2) Light attack
3) Force Pulse
4) Light attack
5) Crystal frag proc
6) Light attack
7) Endless fury

Now all this was happening within 3 seconds, Crystal Frag always came together with endless fury in fractions of seconds. Time after time. His normal score was 20 - 0. On encounter any player was dying within 3 seconds, only crystal frag+endless fury sequence was making over 10k damage.

I'm not newbie to the game and I do know how to animation cancel myself, and I can do same things within 7+ seconds. I honestly can't make this sequence in less than 5 seconds. I reported this guy for using macros, but coming from professional gaming I know for sure "cyberathletes" can perform even more amusing things.

My question is, how can you really tell the difference? To me it was looking like all these attacks are bound to 2-3 buttons for this guy. It actually seems alil strange to see someone playing below lvl 50 character and already knows his moves so well. Maybe he just copied the build he was playing with for 3 years, or maybe he is just supertalented, but in the end of the day this was ruining the game for 8 persons who were playing against him and at some point people started to leave as soon as they saw him in opposite team.

did he wpn swap while doing the combo? Did he use a shield?

If you fail to apply pressure to a sorc, they won't reapply their shield before cooldown runs out and they won't swap weapons(especially in the middle of their combo)

It's not the anwer I'm looking for... what I want to know is how a sorc keeps 4 offensive skills in one bar and if he has room for a defensive skill or buff

No need to have a defensive skill on front bar. If your reactions are quick enough, the automatic response to an unexpected CC is break free, roll dodge, swap, shield. Front bar has the 4 damage skills and a magic buff(either pet if wearing necro, or bound aegis/IL). Back bar has healing ward, hardened ward, surge/entropy, boundless, mag buff(same as front bar). You could also replace boundless w/ the light armor ward or streak.

Araviel2 · July 2017

i can see how macros could maybe work in pve, but pvp in my opinion is just to dynamical for macros to be effective.
i need to be able to react on things incoming things fast and do things like block, dodge and heal. and it seems to me like its very impractical to be stuck up in a macro chain then.

Kneighbors · July 2017

Araviel2 wrote: »

i can see how macros could maybe work in pve, but pvp in my opinion is just to dynamical for macros to be effective.
i need to be able to react on things incoming things fast and do things like block, dodge and heal. and it seems to me like its very impractical to be stuck up in a macro chain then.

Well a finisher of crystal frag+light attack+wrath is still viable in pvp. Most of the time it will take down your foe if below 50% life in no cp environment

elijafire · December 2017

cellobuddy wrote: »

The combo you showed isn't hard to do. You just wait the full animation for the curse(time starts to land the burst at the end of that GCD), then throw a force pulse for pressure, send frag, and, while frag's en route, wrath. The light attacks all working are a good indication that he was not using macros. As laggy as the game's been as a whole, timing has to be adjusted on the fly to make sure the light attack animation starts before hitting the key for the next skill. That person probably just has a lot of experience w/ sorc and is staying calm so they don't hit keys too soon.

^ Is wrong. You can easily adjust macros to account for any "lag" and rally "lag" does not affect client side that much at all when considering macros. The server side will register your keypresses (or the macros) as they come including the time you a lot between key presses.

That said, it is obvious he is at least using ability/LA macros.

The reason some (if not most) of these people aren't telling you the truth is frankly, they like to prey on new ppl who don't know better. If it gets fixed or gets out, suddenly the rabbit has the gun and that is not pleasant for some types.

Personally, I like challenges

Frankly, this game is very slow, if I rely on my own reflexes I am 2 skills ahead of how fast the game reacts. So do yourself a favor and learn to do simple LA weave macros, practice on a dummy. It doesn't take much, just a programmable keyboard and/or mouse. Adjust the microseconds between until you get it perfect, you will eventually be able to slice and cancel perfectly and you will be on even ground with most of the ppl who run around bragging as if they are somehow amazingly skilled.

lao · December 2017

Kneighbors wrote: »

So yesterday playing at BG's below level 50 there was one guy shooting 5 attacks within 3 seconds.
The sequence was always the same:
1) Haunting curse
2) Light attack
3) Force Pulse
4) Light attack
5) Crystal frag proc
6) Light attack
7) Endless fury

Now all this was happening within 3 seconds, Crystal Frag always came together with endless fury in fractions of seconds. Time after time. His normal score was 20 - 0. On encounter any player was dying within 3 seconds, only crystal frag+endless fury sequence was making over 10k damage.

I'm not newbie to the game and I do know how to animation cancel myself, and I can do same things within 7+ seconds. I honestly can't make this sequence in less than 5 seconds. I reported this guy for using macros, but coming from professional gaming I know for sure "cyberathletes" can perform even more amusing things.

My question is, how can you really tell the difference? To me it was looking like all these attacks are bound to 2-3 buttons for this guy. It actually seems alil strange to see someone playing below lvl 50 character and already knows his moves so well. Maybe he just copied the build he was playing with for 3 years, or maybe he is just supertalented, but in the end of the day this was ruining the game for 8 persons who were playing against him and at some point people started to leave as soon as they saw him in opposite team.

fairly sure thats not macroing as thats like a bread and butter combo for sorcs. when you casted it a million times you will naturally get really good at the timings.also id like to know how you wanna put frags in a macro without reading out game states which im pretty sure violates the ToS.

he has probably just mained sorc for ages and made a new one for whatever reasons. pre 50 campaign can be fun cos its so much less zergish compared to vivec.

Rhaegar75 · December 2017

Not in topic at all but I’m just wondering....what rotation and animation cancelling would you use with a magplar?

Thogard · December 2017

I love all the guys telling the OP that he needs to learn to play, but who then completely mess up the sorc execute rotation

Pro tip: that mage wrath was put on you before the Frag hit you.

Waffennacht · December 2017

.

Thogard wrote: »

I love all the guys telling the OP that he needs to learn to play, but who then completely mess up the sorc execute rotation

Pro tip: that mage wrath was put on you before the Frag hit you.

My Sorc rotation:

Wrath wrath wrath curse wrath frag when it procs wrath

Eventually everything lines up

Izaki · December 2017

A standard Sorc combo. Nothing fishy at all.

Thogard · December 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

.

Thogard wrote: »

I love all the guys telling the OP that he needs to learn to play, but who then completely mess up the sorc execute rotation

Pro tip: that mage wrath was put on you before the Frag hit you.

My Sorc rotation:

Wrath wrath wrath curse wrath frag when it procs wrath

Eventually everything lines up

Needs more wrath imo

BuddyAces · December 2017

Alphaa wrote: »

Hello again @Kneighbors

Just to clarify i am max CP and played mag sorc a hell of a lot. I do not use macros, i am just very good at that particular class.

P.s- i am the guy the OP is talking about.

Oooh can you tell me your @ name? I just want to know if you're the person that always wrecks me lol.

Dreth · December 2017

I don't know about sorc but I like the ones where you get crit rushed, heavy attack, incap, executioner before the crit rush animation even finishes. The GCD is still there, regardless of any amount of skill or experience. Could be lag, could be cheats, but sometimes things happen that are simply outside of a players normal ability to execute.

Waffennacht · December 2017

Dreth wrote: »

I don't know about sorc but I like the ones where you get crit rushed, heavy attack, incap, executioner before the crit rush animation even finishes. The GCD is still there, regardless of any amount of skill or experience. Could be lag, could be cheats, but sometimes things happen that are simply outside of a players normal ability to execute.

The heavy + gap closer is like a semi bug, you can wind up the heavy during the closer.

So usually you're taking those two at once, then you get CC'd at which point you die while breaking free.

It's not a macro, or anything like that.

It's like when you started WB or Frag, used heavy (which would stop WB/Frag) then release heavy having both land at the exact same time.

Vizier · December 2017

ZoS could do it IMO looking at the skill activation time-stamps. It would seem that skill combinations executed exactly the same EVERY TIME would be pretty simple to sniff out over time. I just don't think ZoS is motivated enough to really care about the issue.

Thogard · December 2017

Vizier wrote: »

ZoS could do it IMO looking at the skill activation time-stamps. It would seem that skill combinations executed exactly the same EVERY TIME would be pretty simple to sniff out over time. I just don't think ZoS is motivated enough to really care about the issue.

Technically anyone on PC could tell by looking at combat logs.

Also, fun fact, macros aren’t against the TOS.

But why would you run one? It’s so easy to just hit two buttons in order....

Plus I believe a variable lag would ruin any macros, while your own fingers could just compensate for the lag...

You’d have to use different macros for BGs and IC then for zerging, and have a whole new macro for prime time on vivec...

Just wouldn’t work.