Breton racial passives too weak in comparation to altmer/argonian

Enslaved · December 2017

TheYKcid wrote: »

Enslaved wrote: »

Physical? WTF
I don't blame u and others for wanting their racial choice to be BiS, but that would be just crazy. You want bretons to be tankier than all races but Saxhleel, Imperial and maybe Nord? Reality check, bretons are pathetic whiny mongrels with affinity to magic, not resistant to physical damage.

Having both cost reduction and max magicka pool boosts would be stupidly overpowered. Bretons should not have same damage capabilities as Dunmer and Altmer. Being #3 magicka damage race is not bad from lore perspective.

Wew, way to entirely misrepresent what I said. Had you actually read my post, you'd have seen me say any one of my suggested changes would be enough. But what the heck, I'll bite anyway.

4% cost reduction
Your average Breton light armor user already has 23% cost reduction (20% from 5/1/1 light armor passives, 3% from the existing racial passive). An added 1% on top of this is therefore far less than you'd think, being diluted by the already-high amount of cost reduction available. Saving ~30+ magicka per ability cast will not take an underperforming & underused race from trash to BiS.

Also note that in PvP, you are not constantly casting a rotation like in PvE, and therefore benefit far less from cost reduction that an Altmer's constant and reliable regen.

12% max magicka
A Breton PvE magicka DPS build would have about 42k max magicka in total. This consists of a 45% multiplier (7% magelight, 2% meteor, 6% undaunted, 10% Breton racial, and 20% CP), meaning their base magicka sits at just under 29k. A 2% bonus to this base value is 579 magicka.

That's the equivalent of 55 spell damage for ability damage calculation (where the ratio is 10.5:1). Or, for the purpose of light/heavy attack damage calculation (40:1), 14 spell damage.

Ask yourself again whether this is likely to outperform (or even come remotely close to) a 4% or 7% global damage modifier in the case of Altmer & Dunmer respectively.

2752 spell + physical resistance
I fail to see how this is lore-breaking in any way, in the context of ESO.

There are plenty of examples of using magic to provide physical defense in this game. Any time a DK casts volatile armor, or a Sorc casts boundless storm, or a Templar puts down a rune, they are using magicka to provide physical resistance. The precedent has already been set. Multiple times.

Lore aside, let's analyse it from a numbers perspective. 2752 resistance equates to 4.16% armour mitigation. A Nord enjoys 6%. And in an realistic scenario, the suggested Breton passive performs even worse. Armor mitigation caps-out at 50%, and it's very easy to hit and even exceed this cap when building for it. Global damage mitigation (the catagory that the nord passive gets additively calculated into) theoretically caps out at 40%, and only with a total of 400 CPs invested into the 4 relevant stars, a scenario you will never realistically see. So the Breton passive falls even further below the Nord's, when considering marginal benefit gained as a proportion of the baseline.

As for Argonians, they are still by far the better tank, due to a stamina-returning passive that enables block (an inarguably superior tanking style than passive mitigation) and double-dipping healing passives.
________________

So, apart from calling names and insinuating I have some kind of personal agenda involved, you do actually have any objective arguments against my suggested changes?

Lore aside? If you wanted better physical damage mitigation, u should have had rolled Nord, for example. What you want is that bretons have BiS magicka pool, near to BiS magicka regen, stupidly great spell cost reduction and/or physical resistance that is about half of what Nord in heavy armor would have on his unique passive. So modest of you. I guess you should request zos add 10% magicka damage to this stupid race. And physical damage boos, let's say some 15%. It would be only fair to add some 10% stamina bonus as well, right?

Greedy filthy breton merchants, never satisfied, always wanting what others have...

DMuehlhausen · December 2017

Actually if you want the short of it....

Most racial passives are to strong. Passives should never put one race so far above other ones for certain classes.

Passives should be slight bonuses to skills that don't have a direct impact on things like Trials or progression. This was another spot where Blizzard got it right.

Look at all the racial passives none of them set any one race so far above the other that you have to be that race and class unlike in ESO where people will kick you for not being the min/max race/class site

Demycilian · December 2017

It is sad fact of life, but lorewise non-Altmer can only excel at acts of heresy, climbing trees and taking more hits from someone wielding a stick.

Emma_Overload · December 2017

1) Spell Resistance sucks for Sorcerers, should be changed to 5% Magic Damage Reduction.

2) 3% Cost Reduction is way too low, should be at least 6%!

3) #1 or #2 above could be replaced with + 9% Magic Damage buff.

Sinolai · December 2017

Cost reduction could be a bit higher (i think 8% would be good) but otherwise they are in a good spot... or make it affect all abilities (including ultimates).

Emma_Overload · December 2017

Jade1986 wrote: »

Oh lord. In TES lore bretons are not as skilled in magic as Altmer. It is what it is and lore should not be obliterated to make everything exactly like everything else.

In TES4, Bretons got 50% Magic Damage Reduction. How about giving us THAT buff in the name of "lore"?

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · December 2017

Emma_Overload wrote: »

1) Spell Resistance sucks for Sorcerers, should be changed to 5% Magic Damage Reduction.

2) 3% Cost Reduction is way too low, should be at least 6%!

3) #1 or #2 above could be replaced with + 9% Magic Damage buff.

Sinolai wrote: »

Cost reduction could be a bit higher (i think 8% would be good) but otherwise they are in a good spot... or make it affect all abilities (including ultimates).

it has been shown, more then once, in this thread, that the 3% cost reduction is more then fair, right in line with the other resource management passives, if not outright better.

Maura_Neysa · December 2017

Trashs1 wrote: »

Enslaved wrote: »

I would nerf bretons to the ground.
But non biased view on the passives - they are just fine.

Spell resistances are great for PvP, bonus to magicka is best in slot, and reduction to magica cost is all but weak. Bretons are still more than viable for templars, both healing or tanking.

no! 9% mana reg from altmer is alot mor powerful than 3% reduced cost... do your own maths

since im almost pvp exclusiv... that spell resistance isnt most time even noticable 4 sure

3900 resistance is like 7% Damage Reduction, pretty decent. Last time I checked they’re BiS for healers, so...

dodgehopper_ESO · December 2017

TheYKcid wrote: »

Breton is underperforming—and also underused—in both PvE and PvP. Altmer & Dunmer are both better choices for DPS (even on builds that do mostly magic damage), while Argonians dominate healing and tanking.

I can live without a damage-boosting passive, since Altmer & Dunmer already have those, and I like the individuals races to remain unique. But the 3% cost reduction is only slightly better than the Altmer's regen in niche situations, and worse most of the time. Our spell resistance is nice, but very situational once again.

If the defining traits of Bretons are to be magicka management and defense, let's make them actually stand-out in that regard, with some very slight tweaks. Some possibilities include:
Increasing the cost reduction to 4%

Increasing the max magicka bonus to 12% (which will also slightly boost DPS, but in a different way to Altmer/Dunmer, retaining uniqueness)

Reducing the passive resistance value to something like 2752 (arbitrary number, in-line with the Lover mundus/defending trait), but making it apply to BOTH physical and spell resistance

Any one of the above three would be enough to make Bretons more competitive with the other races, imo.

I disagree with this. Breton magical resilience is core to their theme for the entirety of the series. I do not believe this should change at all. I'd rather see Bretons get something like Stam/Mag cost reduction at current value - and this only because so many class skills cost stamina but they're basically magic.

ToRelax · December 2017

SodanTok wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

2% more costreduction should do the trick.

Dunmer could use something like a slight buff too. I don´t think a race being only desirable for one class is a good thing.

They should at least buff the specific resistance passives, they've been useless since 1.6. Maybe keep Dunmer fire resist a bit lower than the others this time considering how common fire damage is.

They are not useless (the one versus specific damage type). They protect you from status effects

Yeah, and I was talking about the resistance value, not the immunity part. Not sure how I feel about that anyway.

Samadhi · December 2017

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

Oh lord. In TES lore bretons are not as skilled in magic as Altmer. It is what it is and lore should not be obliterated to make everything exactly like everything else.

In TES4, Bretons got 50% Magic Damage Reduction. How about giving us THAT buff in the name of "lore"?

Wasn't that one of the multiple titles where the defining characteristic between Breton and Altmer for mage builds,
was that Altmer took extra damage from spells and Breton took reduced damage from spells

magictucktuck · December 2017

Trashs1 wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Trashs1 wrote: »

Enslaved wrote: »

I would nerf bretons to the ground.
But non biased view on the passives - they are just fine.

Spell resistances are great for PvP, bonus to magicka is best in slot, and reduction to magica cost is all but weak. Bretons are still more than viable for templars, both healing or tanking.

no! 9% mana reg from altmer is alot mor powerful than 3% reduced cost... do your own maths

since im almost pvp exclusiv... that spell resistance isnt most time even noticable 4 sure

3% cost reduction is way better then 9% regen, I do not know how you think other wise, mind showing me your math? Otherwise the old addage what can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Also you write like a 13 year girl. Using numbers as short cuts for words and exclamation points and such.

look.

average spellcost is like 2800 mana
average regen (at least in pvp) 1800

9% more regen means 1800 x 1.09 =1962 so 162 more regen
3% cost reduction means 2800 x 0.03 = 84

162 every tick more mana than 84 every spell...

and i u go on the promedian u dont ever use more than 1 spell every tick... it happens in dense fights but than also many times where u dont do even 1 spell every tick

I see what you're saying here but that average is all over the place between defensive and offensive spells. and especially in PVP I'm probably getting 2/3 spells a tick, so even with that average id be getting way more magicka than the regen passive.
but a lot of defensive spells are a lot more than that too, and that's not considering that

i would think unless you run really high regen the reduced cost would be better, which makes them both good for different things

Emma_Overload · December 2017

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

1) Spell Resistance sucks for Sorcerers, should be changed to 5% Magic Damage Reduction.

2) 3% Cost Reduction is way too low, should be at least 6%!

3) #1 or #2 above could be replaced with + 9% Magic Damage buff.

Sinolai wrote: »

Cost reduction could be a bit higher (i think 8% would be good) but otherwise they are in a good spot... or make it affect all abilities (including ultimates).

it has been shown, more then once, in this thread, that the 3% cost reduction is more then fair, right in line with the other resource management passives, if not outright better.

I've read everything that has been said about 3% cost reduction in this thread and many, many others. I've been playing a Sorc since the Beta, and the 3% feels weak because it IS weak. When the game launched, regen had a soft cap, so cost reduction seemed like a smarter choice, but now soft caps are gone. Cost reduction only helps you when you are spamming spells back to back, whereas regen helps you in the downtime in between spells, too.

I know many other people including myself who changed race from Breton to Altmer as soon as it was possible to do so, and every penny has been well spent. Not only do I not know anyone who has switched from Altmer to Breton, I've never even HEARD of anyone switching to Breton. I would love to switch back for cosmetic reasons, but not until Bretons get a buff.

Zordrage · December 2017

Dont DARE to TOUCH my BRETON !!!! YOU HEAR ME !!!

ITS FINE !!!! the last thing i want is a halfarse rework on passives that are totally fine and working.....

Blackbird_V · December 2017

I run Bretons solely because the sustain is so good. More cost reduction and spell resist. Love it, still good for pve.

Maura_Neysa · December 2017

Slick_007 wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

That last part was completely uncalled for.

if they expect people to read what they post, then its absolutely called for. they arent sms'ing their friends. they need to learn to write like a big boy (or girl)

If you want to be a big boy or girl yourself, you should try out capitalizing your letters. If you’re going to be a grammar ***, at least do it right.

TheYKcid · December 2017

Enslaved wrote: »

What you want is that bretons have BiS magicka pool, near to BiS magicka regen, stupidly great spell cost reduction and/or physical resistance.

Are we still stuck at the part where you couldn't comprehend I only wanted 1 out of the 3 suggested changes?

I also wasn't aware Bretons had any boosts to magicka regen, please help me unlock this hidden potential.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · December 2017

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

1) Spell Resistance sucks for Sorcerers, should be changed to 5% Magic Damage Reduction.

2) 3% Cost Reduction is way too low, should be at least 6%!

3) #1 or #2 above could be replaced with + 9% Magic Damage buff.

Sinolai wrote: »

Cost reduction could be a bit higher (i think 8% would be good) but otherwise they are in a good spot... or make it affect all abilities (including ultimates).

it has been shown, more then once, in this thread, that the 3% cost reduction is more then fair, right in line with the other resource management passives, if not outright better.

I've read everything that has been said about 3% cost reduction in this thread and many, many others. I've been playing a Sorc since the Beta, and the 3% feels weak because it IS weak. When the game launched, regen had a soft cap, so cost reduction seemed like a smarter choice, but now soft caps are gone. Cost reduction only helps you when you are spamming spells back to back, whereas regen helps you in the downtime in between spells, too.

I know many other people including myself who changed race from Breton to Altmer as soon as it was possible to do so, and every penny has been well spent. Not only do I not know anyone who has switched from Altmer to Breton, I've never even HEARD of anyone switching to Breton. I would love to switch back for cosmetic reasons, but not until Bretons get a buff.

if the 3% cost reduction is weak, then the 9% regen is weak as well, the reason you changed is for the extra damage passives, not the resource passives, if you are a pve dps mag sorc, then you are getting nothing for the regen passive in the first place. it is the 4% increase to the elemental damage. that is fine, you think you need that extra bit of and you might, you seem to be in the top of eso players, what with your 2.6k comments and 4.2k agrees. so, to clarify, you did not change your race because of the 3% cost reduction, it was the dps passives, simple. don't try to sell it as anything else.

Inarre · December 2017

Well if you want to get picky about it, racial passives in eso aren't strong enough!

Let's go back to Oblivion. I want my wood elf to be able to control creatures again

TheYKcid · December 2017

@Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

You're right, but I see it as a symptom of the overarching problem.

People switch from Breton to Altmer for the DPS boost, with minimal loss in sustain (or even better in PvP).
People switch from Breton to Dunmer for a greater DPS boost (dependent on build), reasonably trading-off some sustain.
People switch from Breton to Argonian for the healing boost, with even better sustain.

No one switches to Breton because there's simply no compelling reason to. The only really unique thing it offers is the 3960 spell resistance, which is only situationally useful and doesn't really fit into any build archetypes.

The change I'd most prefer would still be to boost the cost reduction passive by a percent, if not more. Nerf the spell resistance a little if you have to—I guarantee many won't complain. This would preserve the "flavour" of the current racial passives, while turning Bretons into something competitive with, yet not identical to, the other magicka races.

Just get Bretons to a point where people might forgo the DPS of an Altmer/Dunmer—or the healing of an Argonian—and willingly choose a Breton because they stand-out in the sustain department in some clear way. Isn't that balance and diversity in a nutshell?

Joy_Division · December 2017

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Trashs1 wrote: »

Enslaved wrote: »

I would nerf bretons to the ground.
But non biased view on the passives - they are just fine.

Spell resistances are great for PvP, bonus to magicka is best in slot, and reduction to magica cost is all but weak. Bretons are still more than viable for templars, both healing or tanking.

no! 9% mana reg from altmer is alot mor powerful than 3% reduced cost... do your own maths

since im almost pvp exclusiv... that spell resistance isnt most time even noticable 4 sure

3% cost reduction is way better then 9% regen, I do not know how you think other wise, mind showing me your math? Otherwise the old addage what can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Also you write like a 13 year girl. Using numbers as short cuts for words and exclamation points and such.

So after berating this poster for not providing evidence, you proceed to make a grandiose claim without evidence.

As to which is better, the Altmer or Breton passive ultimately it's going to depend on circumstance.

Cost Reduction is better in situation where you are just spamming skills left and right. This is hard to do after the Morrowind expansion, because the developers have ended infinite resources and save for off-balance exploiting DKs, even the best DPS builds find themselves heavy attacking a lot on 6 million + target dummies.

In PvP there can be a lot of downtime between mass spamming skills because mobility, LOS, etc., are so important and in those downtimes, regen is always helping whereas cost reduction isn't. Plus The continuous attack bonus will apply to Altmer's passive and doesn't for the Breton.

Atlmer is going to be preferable in any event if the player is interested in damage. If the player isn't interested in damage, then they should go Argonian.

kojou · December 2017

My 2 cents...

My magicka warden is a Breton primarily because I didn't want to make another Altmer. For a min/max situation I know it isn't the "best" choice, but we are only talking differences of a few % here and there for any passive comparing to the Altmer and my plan was to make her a tanky healer and support role, so missing out on some elemental damage was ok considering I would be gaining spell resistance.

You can argue the value of 9% regen and 3% cost reduction all you want but the difference of ~84 magicka every 2 seconds isn't going to kill your build. Also, given where ZoS has been going with making sustain harder I don't think the cost reduction passive is ever going to get a buff.

IMO, the whole "magic damage" increase thing is never going to happen either. The only thing that could be legitimately argued and pushed for is to buff Breton with a small % more max magicka which would buff their damage. It is much easier for them to tweak numbers that already exist then to add a new passive.

Danksta · December 2017

Trashs1 wrote: »

Enslaved wrote: »

I would nerf bretons to the ground.
But non biased view on the passives - they are just fine.

Spell resistances are great for PvP, bonus to magicka is best in slot, and reduction to magica cost is all but weak. Bretons are still more than viable for templars, both healing or tanking.

no! 9% mana reg from altmer is alot mor powerful than 3% reduced cost... do your own maths

since im almost pvp exclusiv... that spell resistance isnt most time even noticable 4 sure

It really depends. If you run only base regen, 9% extra regen is about 50-60 regen. Idk about you but I'm not getting excited over 50-60 regen.

ZOS_MattL · December 2017

Hey there,
We have removed and edited several posts in this thread for being off topic and flaming. Keep all discussion on the topic being discussed and be sure to follow the Community Rules when making future posts.

Derra · December 2017

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Trashs1 wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Trashs1 wrote: »

Enslaved wrote: »

I would nerf bretons to the ground.
But non biased view on the passives - they are just fine.

Spell resistances are great for PvP, bonus to magicka is best in slot, and reduction to magica cost is all but weak. Bretons are still more than viable for templars, both healing or tanking.

no! 9% mana reg from altmer is alot mor powerful than 3% reduced cost... do your own maths

since im almost pvp exclusiv... that spell resistance isnt most time even noticable 4 sure

3% cost reduction is way better then 9% regen, I do not know how you think other wise, mind showing me your math? Otherwise the old addage what can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

[snip]

look.

average spellcost is like 2800 mana
average regen (at least in pvp) 1800

9% more regen means 1800 x 1.09 =1962 so 162 more regen
3% cost reduction means 2800 x 0.03 = 84

162 every tick more mana than 84 every spell...

and i u go on the promedian u dont ever use more than 1 spell every tick... it happens in dense fights but than also many times where u dont do even 1 spell every tick

I don't know where you think the average spell cost is only 2800. Most skills are between 3k and 4k, the best I could find on an average skill cost is here, https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/298219/a-study-discussing-class-specific-spell-costs, yes it is from 2016 but skill cost have only went up since with the removal of the CP for it and the lowering of light armors cost reduction.

But even using your same math, you use spells ever 1 second and regen every 2, you even point this out, so 84 * 2 is 168. 6 more mag then regen. This is from the maximum that it could be. Also the regen only buffs your base regen, which would be nowheres close to 1800.

So more realistically you are looking at a 9% buff to around 1k regen, let's say you have a set on with 2 magic regen, that is 258. Base Magic recovery at CP160 is 514 and then add Witchmothers, which is another 319. There are almost no builds that will have more then that, so adds them up, 514+258+319 and you get 1,088, 9% of that is 65. Much less then you stated. All percentage buffs are calulated off the base, together, see this thread, https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/318595/introduction-to-pve-damage-calculation-homestead/p1.

So I ask again, what makes you think that regen is better then cost reduction, you only PvP? Because in pve and I would say most of the time in PvP, cost reduction rules.
[Edit for quote]

I´m tracking my stats for most duels/pvp encounters - i average between 35 and 45 abilities used per minute even in intense duels.
This is on a sorc which arguably is still the best race to be breton on (everything else prefers argonian).

If you assume an average spellcost of 3500 (that´s being generous) you get 105 magica saved per spell.
That saves you a maximum of 4725 magica per minute and 3675 minimum.

That means for altmer to push equal to breton 9% magica regen needs to provide between 122 and 157 recovery - which means 1350 to 1750 base rec.
I don´t know many builds without dark deal or harness on magblade or magsorc that would have lower than 1350 base rec - that being a build with lich + attro mundus as your sole sources of sustain.
Actually i don´t know anyone on magblade or magsorc that could sustain from just lich + attro. It´s pretty low end magica rec if that´s the only thing you´ve got (as a reference point: Against a comptetent opponent you´ll find yourself running dry with lich + shadowrend + attro + 2 recovery glyph - which equals 1800 base rec - if you start incorporating dark deal or heavyattacks it just favors altmer over breton even more as those things directly reduce the amount of magica attacks you perform per minute).

Rainraven · December 2017

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Any race compared to an Argonian is weak. The race is absurdly overloaded with passives that go beyond what most people understand.

3% Max Magicka; not the best passive compared to Breton, High Elf, or Dunmer, but it's still a nice boost to your offensive and healing spells. Even useful as a Stamina build in PvP. Our "weakest" bonus as an Argonian.

4620 Health, Magicka, and Stamina when drinking a potion, pretty much a 50% efficiency value of a c160 Tri-Potion, helping resource management and healing tremendously. Boosts the potency of Potion Cost Reduction glyphs to the realm of viability. This translates to 205 Health, Magicka, and Stamina Recovery if drinking a potion every 45s, and gets up to 308 of each if using 3 Potion CDR Glyphs. To put in perspective, 9% regeneration would need a BASE (all non % amplification sources of regen) Recovery stat of 2,277, which is absurdly difficult to attain without serious operational loss. Redguards' Adrenaline Rush passive is ~316 Stamina Renergation, so Argonians can almost reach that on top of also getting Magicka and Health recovery stats as well...

9% Bonus Health; Second best Health racial in the game, only losing to Imperials by 3%. This is insane as a stat, making you tankier and able to allocate points into other attributes instead, or get even more efficiency out of Health. Especially from a PvP standpoint, this is invaluable.

1485 Poison AND Disease resistance; 2.25% damage mitigation to Poison and Disease attacks, helping reduce damage taken from Stamina DKs and NBs quite a bit, as well as poisons and Werewolves. It ignores the 50% mitigation cap of Physical Resistance as well, allowing you to have over that amount towards these attacks. On top of this, it also makes you immune to the Poisoned (6s DoT effect) and Diseased (Major Defile) statuses. From a PvP stand point, this alone is hilariously broken.

5% Healing Done AND Received; great as any role in any aspect of the game, boosting all heals you take from others by 5% and your own healing by 10% (double dips with itself for self healing). One of the stronger PvP racials at that.

Which is why Cyrodiil is infested with dinosaurs atm.

I really like their weird potion passive, I wish all the races had something unique and cool like that.

Breton cost reduction is fine on paper, but. I've race-changed my main (a magsorc) to every magicka-oriented race but Argonian at one point or another, and the Altmer regen is a lot better in practice. Eventually CP makes this not important for a non-minmaxer like me, and I went with Dunmer in the end anyway. I still think that Breton cost reduction passive is meh.

Colecovision · December 2017

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

Oh lord. In TES lore bretons are not as skilled in magic as Altmer. It is what it is and lore should not be obliterated to make everything exactly like everything else.

In TES4, Bretons got 50% Magic Damage Reduction. How about giving us THAT buff in the name of "lore"?

It was that way in TESIII as well. The boots of blinding speed were only half blinding for Brentons.

I agree with most of the buff comments. I haven't looked up which characters did what, but gut tells me that there are a few Brenton alchemists along the way in the last 3 ES games. A passive that boosts potions made and used by that character be a fun addition.

Tommy_The_Gun · December 2017

IDK.. Bretons have reduced spell cost - and after Morrowind update that it seems pretty handy.

And technically you should not compare Bretons passives to Argonian passives - because Argonians were never meant to be "DPS". More like tanky - healers - this is what they are best at

Argonians have potions passive - and to be honest it is not really a "passive" as it does not give constant bonus... it is more of a "Proc-Passive" ?? (That only works when you use a potion) - but either way Argonians are often called "BIS" (best in slot) when it comes to recurses management. And play style (if you chose an Argonian) is slightly different because instead of having passive recovery - you relay on "burst" resources recovery.
Also - argonians don't have high bonus to magicka.. thus when you are aiming at max dps - Altmer, Breton and Dummer will be (because of how the game works - higher magicka pool - more magicka based dmg) better at dps.

You should rather compare Breton, Altmer and Dummer passives...

alanmatillab16_ESO · December 2017

Whatever happened to "I want to make a <whatever race>" because I like the idea not some % damage meter game? That shtaco got boring quickly in WoW and led to races and classes being homogenised to appease the dps-gods. I would rather not see it here.

GrigorijMalahevich · December 2017

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Trashs1 wrote: »

Enslaved wrote: »

I would nerf bretons to the ground.
But non biased view on the passives - they are just fine.

Spell resistances are great for PvP, bonus to magicka is best in slot, and reduction to magica cost is all but weak. Bretons are still more than viable for templars, both healing or tanking.

no! 9% mana reg from altmer is alot mor powerful than 3% reduced cost... do your own maths

since im almost pvp exclusiv... that spell resistance isnt most time even noticable 4 sure

3% cost reduction is way better then 9% regen, I do not know how you think other wise, mind showing me your math? Otherwise the old addage what can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
[snip]

[Edit for bashing]

Totally agree. 3% cost resuction is good on high cost skills and in PvP you cast 1 skill per second, with average 4000 magicka spell cost that will be around 240 saved magicka.

Obviously Altmers 9% regen will outshine 3% cost reduction with the more regen and start approximately at >2000 mag regen...

I run my dunmer magsorc and never bother about any other races passives. Considering that I always have lich on my backbar - Altmer for me is a must and thinking about this right now forced me to check the price for race change... I hate this thread.