Breton racial passives too weak in comparation to altmer/argonian

Trashs1 · December 2017

hello everyone, hello to zos

first a short summary:

Breton:
max magicka +10%
spell ress +3960
reduced spell cost -3%

Altmer:
max magicka: +10%
mag reg: +9%
more eledamage: 4%

Argonian
max Magicka: +3%.
Whenever you drink a potion you restore 4620 Health, Magicka, and Stamina
max healt: +9%
pioson & disease ress: 1485
increased healing done and resived +5%

if u compare the two so called master races to the breton race its totaly clear why they are better than them. even dunmer is a better magica class than breton.

since i really love how bretons look (idk why but the most beautiful chars i created are bretons) is there any posibility to tweak them a little bit? maybe 6% mag reg could help

what does u guys think?

Banana · December 2017

I prefer the breton look to. Im not hard core so I dont lose any sleep over the stat differences. Better than switching to the other side and getting hit with the ugly stick.

Enslaved · December 2017

I would nerf bretons to the ground.
But non biased view on the passives - they are just fine.

Spell resistances are great for PvP, bonus to magicka is best in slot, and reduction to magica cost is all but weak. Bretons are still more than viable for templars, both healing or tanking.

Trashs1 · December 2017

Enslaved wrote: »

I would nerf bretons to the ground.
But non biased view on the passives - they are just fine.

Spell resistances are great for PvP, bonus to magicka is best in slot, and reduction to magica cost is all but weak. Bretons are still more than viable for templars, both healing or tanking.

no! 9% mana reg from altmer is alot mor powerful than 3% reduced cost... do your own maths

since im almost pvp exclusiv... that spell resistance isnt most time even noticable 4 sure

Girl_Number8 · December 2017

Yes, magic cost reduction could be increased.

Derra · December 2017

2% more costreduction should do the trick.

Dunmer could use something like a slight buff too. I don´t think a race being only desirable for one class is a good thing.

TheYKcid · December 2017

Breton is underperforming—and also underused—in both PvE and PvP. Altmer & Dunmer are both better choices for DPS (even on builds that do mostly magic damage), while Argonians dominate healing and tanking.

I can live without a damage-boosting passive, since Altmer & Dunmer already have those, and I like the individuals races to remain unique. But the 3% cost reduction is only slightly better than the Altmer's regen in niche situations, and worse most of the time. Our spell resistance is nice, but very situational once again.

If the defining traits of Bretons are to be magicka management and defense, let's make them actually stand-out in that regard, with some very slight tweaks. Some possibilities include:

Increasing the cost reduction to 4%
Increasing the max magicka bonus to 12% (which will also slightly boost DPS, but in a different way to Altmer/Dunmer, retaining uniqueness)
Reducing the passive resistance value to something like 2752 (arbitrary number, in-line with the Lover mundus/defending trait), but making it apply to BOTH physical and spell resistance

Any one of the above three would be enough to make Bretons more competitive with the other races, imo.

Enslaved · December 2017

TheYKcid wrote: »

Breton is underperforming—and also underused—in both PvE and PvP. Altmer & Dunmer are both better choices for DPS (even on builds that do mostly magic damage), while Argonians dominate healing and tanking.

I can live without a damage-boosting passive, since Altmer & Dunmer already have those, and I like the individuals races to remain unique. But the 3% cost reduction is only slightly better than the Altmer's regen in niche situations, and worse most of the time. Our spell resistance is nice, but very situational once again.

If the defining traits of Bretons is magicka management and defense, let's make it actually stand-out in that regard, with some very slight tweaks. Some possibilities include:
Buffing the cost reduction to 4%

Increasing the max magicka bonus to 12% (which will also give a slight boost to DPS, but in a different way to Altmer/Dunmer—retaining uniqueness)

Dropping the passive resistance value to something like 2752 (arbitrary number, in-line with the Lover mundus/defending trait), but making it apply to BOTH physical and spell resistance

Any one of the above three would be enough to make Bretons more competitive with the other races, imo.

Physical? WTF
I don't blame u and others for wanting their racial choice to be BiS, but that would be just crazy. You want bretons to be tankier than all races but Saxhleel, Imperial and maybe Nord? Reality check, bretons are pathetic whiny mongrels with affinity to magic, not resistant to physical damage.

Having both cost reduction and max magicka pool boosts would be stupidly overpowered. Bretons should not have same damage capabilities as Dunmer and Altmer. Being #3 magicka damage race is not bad from lore perspective.

Lyserus · December 2017

The only "weak" racials are imperial red diamond (the other 2 are nice tho) and khajiit weaponcrit (would be nice if apply to both weapon and spell crit, still not too underpower)

There is no need to change other racials except these two

Tasear · December 2017

Lyserus wrote: »

The only "weak" racials are imperial red diamond (the other 2 are nice tho) and khajiit weaponcrit (would be nice if apply to both weapon and spell crit, still not too underpower)

There is no need to change other racials except these two

Bosmer...

Trashs1 · December 2017

Tasear wrote: »

Lyserus wrote: »

The only "weak" racials are imperial red diamond (the other 2 are nice tho) and khajiit weaponcrit (would be nice if apply to both weapon and spell crit, still not too underpower)

There is no need to change other racials except these two

Bosmer...

bosmer are the best pvp stamblades so no chnage needed, breton excels at nothing better than others

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · December 2017

Trashs1 wrote: »

Enslaved wrote: »

I would nerf bretons to the ground.
But non biased view on the passives - they are just fine.

Spell resistances are great for PvP, bonus to magicka is best in slot, and reduction to magica cost is all but weak. Bretons are still more than viable for templars, both healing or tanking.

no! 9% mana reg from altmer is alot mor powerful than 3% reduced cost... do your own maths

since im almost pvp exclusiv... that spell resistance isnt most time even noticable 4 sure

3% cost reduction is way better then 9% regen, I do not know how you think other wise, mind showing me your math? Otherwise the old addage what can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
[snip]

[Edit for bashing]

Urza1234 · December 2017

Enslaved wrote: »

Having both cost reduction and max magicka pool boosts would be stupidly overpowered. Bretons should not have same damage capabilities as Dunmer and Altmer. Being #3 magicka damage race is not bad from lore perspective.

He never suggested boosting both, he very clearly suggested using only 1 of 3 listed possibilities. Dont strawman.

Samadhi · December 2017

Lyserus wrote: »

The only "weak" racials are imperial red diamond (the other 2 are nice tho) and khajiit weaponcrit (would be nice if apply to both weapon and spell crit, still not too underpower)

There is no need to change other racials except these two

Both the listed racials apply their effect to gameplay more regularly
than Stealthy on Bosmer and Khajiit
Q_Q

Have 3 Bosmer characters set up for tanking--Nightblade, Sorcerer, and Warden
would actually prefer Red Diamond over Stealthy on them
Hell, even Carnage would be nice for more frequent crit heals off Rally and Surge

re-rolled my Khajiit Templar tank to an Orc tho
was made back when weapon crit increased the crit rate (thus healing) of jabs

Trashs1 · December 2017

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Trashs1 wrote: »

Enslaved wrote: »

I would nerf bretons to the ground.
But non biased view on the passives - they are just fine.

Spell resistances are great for PvP, bonus to magicka is best in slot, and reduction to magica cost is all but weak. Bretons are still more than viable for templars, both healing or tanking.

no! 9% mana reg from altmer is alot mor powerful than 3% reduced cost... do your own maths

since im almost pvp exclusiv... that spell resistance isnt most time even noticable 4 sure

3% cost reduction is way better then 9% regen, I do not know how you think other wise, mind showing me your math? Otherwise the old addage what can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

[snip]

look.

average spellcost is like 2800 mana
average regen (at least in pvp) 1800

9% more regen means 1800 x 1.09 =1962 so 162 more regen
3% cost reduction means 2800 x 0.03 = 84

162 every tick more mana than 84 every spell...

and i u go on the promedian u dont ever use more than 1 spell every tick... it happens in dense fights but than also many times where u dont do even 1 spell every tick

[Edit for quote]

Lyserus · December 2017

Samadhi wrote: »

Lyserus wrote: »

The only "weak" racials are imperial red diamond (the other 2 are nice tho) and khajiit weaponcrit (would be nice if apply to both weapon and spell crit, still not too underpower)

There is no need to change other racials except these two

Both the listed racials apply their effect to gameplay more regularly
than Stealthy on Bosmer and Khajiit
Q_Q

Have 3 Bosmer characters set up for tanking--Nightblade, Sorcerer, and Warden
would actually prefer Red Diamond over Stealthy on them
Hell, even Carnage would be nice for more frequent crit heals off Rally and Surge

re-rolled my Khajiit Templar tank to an Orc tho
was made back when weapon crit increased the crit rate (thus healing) of jabs

ohh...true, I have ignored stealthy for too long I foegot their existence.

yeah, stealthy is more of a social skill than other combat passives every other races have, they shouldn't really be in the main passives （tho not bad if put in the first racial passive that evryone have start up）

Urza1234 · December 2017

@TheYKcid

IMO I'd change the magic resistance racial to a %percentage reduction, buff it a bit and not include physical resistance at all.

Nord gets 6% damage reduction across the board. To me 7-9% magic damage reduction would seem reasonable for Breton.

The way that Breton's current flat bonus to Spell Resistance interacts with different armor types and the armor cap produces really inconsistent results.

logarifmik · December 2017

I have an unexpected proposal. Buff Bretons to make them best in conjuration, something like:

OBLIVION BOND
Your summoned creatures deal additional X% of damage.

In order to make it more universal (not Sorcerer and Warden exclusive) also add something like:

OBLIVION BANISH
You deal X% more damage to hostile summoned creatures and daedras.

How it should work with Daedric Prey and Fighters Guild passives I do not know. Just a raw idea.

Mayrael · December 2017

Trashs1 wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Trashs1 wrote: »

Enslaved wrote: »

I would nerf bretons to the ground.
But non biased view on the passives - they are just fine.

Spell resistances are great for PvP, bonus to magicka is best in slot, and reduction to magica cost is all but weak. Bretons are still more than viable for templars, both healing or tanking.

no! 9% mana reg from altmer is alot mor powerful than 3% reduced cost... do your own maths

since im almost pvp exclusiv... that spell resistance isnt most time even noticable 4 sure

3% cost reduction is way better then 9% regen, I do not know how you think other wise, mind showing me your math? Otherwise the old addage what can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

[snip]

look.

average spellcost is like 2800 mana
average regen (at least in pvp) 1800

9% more regen means 1800 x 1.09 =1962 so 162 more regen
3% cost reduction means 2800 x 0.03 = 84

162 every tick more mana than 84 every spell...

and i u go on the promedian u dont ever use more than 1 spell every tick... it happens in dense fights but than also many times where u dont do even 1 spell every tick

I have 9 maxed toons and they are spread around many races, bretons for sure are not underpowered when compared to others.

162 regen per 2 sec so it gives... 81 magicka every second, so if you use spell every second its the same. When you take skills that cost more (there is plenty of them) cost reduction will give even more. Regen just looks better in the stats window but it depends on build and situation which is better.

Spell resist? 3960 is something arround 6% less damage against 4% more damage of altmer.

Nope, bretons are fine as they are don't be to greedy.

[Edit for quote]

TheYKcid · December 2017

Enslaved wrote: »

Physical? WTF
I don't blame u and others for wanting their racial choice to be BiS, but that would be just crazy. You want bretons to be tankier than all races but Saxhleel, Imperial and maybe Nord? Reality check, bretons are pathetic whiny mongrels with affinity to magic, not resistant to physical damage.

Having both cost reduction and max magicka pool boosts would be stupidly overpowered. Bretons should not have same damage capabilities as Dunmer and Altmer. Being #3 magicka damage race is not bad from lore perspective.

Wew, way to entirely misrepresent what I said. Had you actually read my post, you'd have seen me say any one of my suggested changes would be enough. But what the heck, I'll bite anyway.

4% cost reduction
Your average Breton light armor user already has 23% cost reduction (20% from 5/1/1 light armor passives, 3% from the existing racial passive). An added 1% on top of this is therefore far less than you'd think, being diluted by the already-high amount of cost reduction available. Saving ~30+ magicka per ability cast will not take an underperforming & underused race from trash to BiS.

Also note that in PvP, you are not constantly casting a rotation like in PvE, and therefore benefit far less from cost reduction that an Altmer's constant and reliable regen.

12% max magicka
A Breton PvE magicka DPS build would have about 42k max magicka in total. This consists of a 45% multiplier (7% magelight, 2% meteor, 6% undaunted, 10% Breton racial, and 20% CP), meaning their base magicka sits at just under 29k. A 2% bonus to this base value is 579 magicka.

That's the equivalent of 55 spell damage for ability damage calculation (where the ratio is 10.5:1). Or, for the purpose of light/heavy attack damage calculation (40:1), 14 spell damage.

Ask yourself again whether this is likely to outperform (or even come remotely close to) a 4% or 7% global damage modifier in the case of Altmer & Dunmer respectively.

2752 spell + physical resistance
I fail to see how this is lore-breaking in any way, in the context of ESO.

There are plenty of examples of using magic to provide physical defense in this game. Any time a DK casts volatile armor, or a Sorc casts boundless storm, or a Templar puts down a rune, they are using magicka to provide physical resistance. The precedent has already been set. Multiple times.

Lore aside, let's analyse it from a numbers perspective. 2752 resistance equates to 4.16% armour mitigation. A Nord enjoys 6%. And in an realistic scenario, the suggested Breton passive performs even worse. Armor mitigation caps-out at 50%, and it's very easy to hit and even exceed this cap when building for it. Global damage mitigation (the catagory that the nord passive gets additively calculated into) theoretically caps out at 40%, and only with a total of 400 CPs invested into the 4 relevant stars, a scenario you will never realistically see. So the Breton passive falls even further below the Nord's, when considering marginal benefit gained as a proportion of the baseline.

As for Argonians, they are still by far the better tank, due to a stamina-returning passive that enables block (an inarguably superior tanking style than passive mitigation) and double-dipping healing passives.
________________

So, apart from calling names and insinuating I have some kind of personal agenda involved, you do actually have any objective arguments against my suggested changes?

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · December 2017

Trashs1 wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Trashs1 wrote: »

Enslaved wrote: »

I would nerf bretons to the ground.
But non biased view on the passives - they are just fine.

Spell resistances are great for PvP, bonus to magicka is best in slot, and reduction to magica cost is all but weak. Bretons are still more than viable for templars, both healing or tanking.

no! 9% mana reg from altmer is alot mor powerful than 3% reduced cost... do your own maths

since im almost pvp exclusiv... that spell resistance isnt most time even noticable 4 sure

3% cost reduction is way better then 9% regen, I do not know how you think other wise, mind showing me your math? Otherwise the old addage what can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

[snip]

look.

average spellcost is like 2800 mana
average regen (at least in pvp) 1800

9% more regen means 1800 x 1.09 =1962 so 162 more regen
3% cost reduction means 2800 x 0.03 = 84

162 every tick more mana than 84 every spell...

and i u go on the promedian u dont ever use more than 1 spell every tick... it happens in dense fights but than also many times where u dont do even 1 spell every tick

I don't know where you think the average spell cost is only 2800. Most skills are between 3k and 4k, the best I could find on an average skill cost is here, https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/298219/a-study-discussing-class-specific-spell-costs, yes it is from 2016 but skill cost have only went up since with the removal of the CP for it and the lowering of light armors cost reduction.

But even using your same math, you use spells ever 1 second and regen every 2, you even point this out, so 84 * 2 is 168. 6 more mag then regen. This is from the maximum that it could be. Also the regen only buffs your base regen, which would be nowheres close to 1800.

So more realistically you are looking at a 9% buff to around 1k regen, let's say you have a set on with 2 magic regen, that is 258. Base Magic recovery at CP160 is 514 and then add Witchmothers, which is another 319. There are almost no builds that will have more then that, so adds them up, 514+258+319 and you get 1,088, 9% of that is 65. Much less then you stated. All percentage buffs are calulated off the base, together, see this thread, https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/318595/introduction-to-pve-damage-calculation-homestead/p1.

So I ask again, what makes you think that regen is better then cost reduction, you only PvP? Because in pve and I would say most of the time in PvP, cost reduction rules.
[Edit for quote]

TheYKcid · December 2017

@Urza1234 That's actually a pretty solid suggestion and stays in-line with how racials in general are currently set-up. I'd support a 9% global magic damage reduction.

Girl_Number8 · December 2017

TheYKcid wrote: »

Breton is underperforming—and also underused—in both PvE and PvP. Altmer & Dunmer are both better choices for DPS (even on builds that do mostly magic damage), while Argonians dominate healing and tanking.

I can live without a damage-boosting passive, since Altmer & Dunmer already have those, and I like the individuals races to remain unique. But the 3% cost reduction is only slightly better than the Altmer's regen in niche situations, and worse most of the time. Our spell resistance is nice, but very situational once again.

If the defining traits of Bretons are to be magicka management and defense, let's make them actually stand-out in that regard, with some very slight tweaks. Some possibilities include:
Increasing the cost reduction to 4%

Increasing the max magicka bonus to 12% (which will also slightly boost DPS, but in a different way to Altmer/Dunmer, retaining uniqueness)

Reducing the passive resistance value to something like 2752 (arbitrary number, in-line with the Lover mundus/defending trait), but making it apply to BOTH physical and spell resistance

Any one of the above three would be enough to make Bretons more competitive with the other races, imo.

I disagree with taking the resistances down, as it is a defining passive of the race and is incorporated into different builds. If anything they should raise it with the magic cost reduction. It would also help in trials and I could finally maybe not have to look at that tail anymore.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · December 2017

@Girl_Number8 you are choosing to be an Argonian healer for the passives? Is it because of the Stam return from pots? Because the healing done passive is not that great and having 7% more magic almost makes up for it. You would save more magic with the 3% cost reduction then you would get with the Argonian pot passive, which equals around 210 regen. If looking at a tail bothers you, would would not be losing almost anything by being a Breton.

ToRelax · December 2017

Derra wrote: »

2% more costreduction should do the trick.

Dunmer could use something like a slight buff too. I don´t think a race being only desirable for one class is a good thing.

They should at least buff the specific resistance passives, they've been useless since 1.6. Maybe keep Dunmer fire resist a bit lower than the others this time considering how common fire damage is.

FrancisCrawford · December 2017

Breton spell resistance is a very weak skill in any build that regularly uses damage shields -- which is a large fraction of all magicka or health ones.

Bretons are of course weak for stamina builds.

Other than for magicka, stamina and health builds, however, Bretons are quite strong.

Seriously -- my original main was a Breton sorcerer. He's now my main crafter, but only a secondary dungeoneer. My newer Altmer sorcerer has eclipsed him.

On the other hand, I'm fine with my original choice of Breton for my templars.

SodanTok · December 2017

Trashs1 wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Trashs1 wrote: »

Enslaved wrote: »

I would nerf bretons to the ground.
But non biased view on the passives - they are just fine.

Spell resistances are great for PvP, bonus to magicka is best in slot, and reduction to magica cost is all but weak. Bretons are still more than viable for templars, both healing or tanking.

no! 9% mana reg from altmer is alot mor powerful than 3% reduced cost... do your own maths

since im almost pvp exclusiv... that spell resistance isnt most time even noticable 4 sure

3% cost reduction is way better then 9% regen, I do not know how you think other wise, mind showing me your math? Otherwise the old addage what can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

[snip]

look.

average spellcost is like 2800 mana
average regen (at least in pvp) 1800

9% more regen means 1800 x 1.09 =1962 so 162 more regen
3% cost reduction means 2800 x 0.03 = 84

162 every tick more mana than 84 every spell...

and i u go on the promedian u dont ever use more than 1 spell every tick... it happens in dense fights but than also many times where u dont do even 1 spell every tick

Yet another uneducated post. Why do people insist on arguing with math without actually having all the required information to make right calculations. Sorry if this look like singling you out, but it gets annoying reading this stuff like every 2nd thread.

Builds that have 1800 regen in PVP usually have regen only from drink and 1-2 gear pieces. That's 1091 regen. That's 98 regen from 9% and that makes it 49 magicka/sec.

Plus you average spellcost looks like already with light armor reduction cost. 3% of reduced cost is less than 3% of full cost.

ToRelax wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

2% more costreduction should do the trick.

Dunmer could use something like a slight buff too. I don´t think a race being only desirable for one class is a good thing.

They should at least buff the specific resistance passives, they've been useless since 1.6. Maybe keep Dunmer fire resist a bit lower than the others this time considering how common fire damage is.

They are not useless (the one versus specific damage type). They protect you from status effects

As for thread. I agree with everything that will buff unpopular races against the top dogs that were dominating this game for at least 2 years (i look at you altmers and redguards)
[Edit for quote]

Jade1986 · December 2017

Oh lord. In TES lore bretons are not as skilled in magic as Altmer. It is what it is and lore should not be obliterated to make everything exactly like everything else.

Gilliamtherogue · December 2017

Any race compared to an Argonian is weak. The race is absurdly overloaded with passives that go beyond what most people understand.

3% Max Magicka; not the best passive compared to Breton, High Elf, or Dunmer, but it's still a nice boost to your offensive and healing spells. Even useful as a Stamina build in PvP. Our "weakest" bonus as an Argonian.

4620 Health, Magicka, and Stamina when drinking a potion, pretty much a 50% efficiency value of a c160 Tri-Potion, helping resource management and healing tremendously. Boosts the potency of Potion Cost Reduction glyphs to the realm of viability. This translates to 205 Health, Magicka, and Stamina Recovery if drinking a potion every 45s, and gets up to 308 of each if using 3 Potion CDR Glyphs. To put in perspective, 9% regeneration would need a BASE (all non % amplification sources of regen) Recovery stat of 2,277, which is absurdly difficult to attain without serious operational loss. Redguards' Adrenaline Rush passive is ~316 Stamina Renergation, so Argonians can almost reach that on top of also getting Magicka and Health recovery stats as well...

9% Bonus Health; Second best Health racial in the game, only losing to Imperials by 3%. This is insane as a stat, making you tankier and able to allocate points into other attributes instead, or get even more efficiency out of Health. Especially from a PvP standpoint, this is invaluable.

1485 Poison AND Disease resistance; 2.25% damage mitigation to Poison and Disease attacks, helping reduce damage taken from Stamina DKs and NBs quite a bit, as well as poisons and Werewolves. It ignores the 50% mitigation cap of Physical Resistance as well, allowing you to have over that amount towards these attacks. On top of this, it also makes you immune to the Poisoned (6s DoT effect) and Diseased (Major Defile) statuses. From a PvP stand point, this alone is hilariously broken.

5% Healing Done AND Received; great as any role in any aspect of the game, boosting all heals you take from others by 5% and your own healing by 10% (double dips with itself for self healing). One of the stronger PvP racials at that.

Rex-Umbra · December 2017

Argonian and Altmer OP.

idk · December 2017

The comparison OP makes is odd when he adds the Argonian.

Between the Altmer and Bretton, the Bretton gains damage resistance against spell damage vs the added damage output form elemental damage. Considering a significant amount of damage in the game is spell damage this is pretty solid. A more sturdy Character.

Further, one has to stack some solid regen for the Altmer regen passive to really shine compared to the Bretton Cost reduction. For PvE damage builds it is less desirable to do so.

As for the Argonian, it is only solid for PvP and PvE support roles. It is weaker for damage output with either class. Even in PvP it will put out less damage than either of the other two classes.

So it really depends on the build and purpose of the build and it is unreasonable to think everything should be so perfect in every situation.

So to OP, if you want the altmer or argonian passives race change. Otherwise since there is an easy solution.