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ESO could learn from Destiny

Crom_CCCXVI
Crom_CCCXVI
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The Rise and Fall of Destiny that is, you could do a case study on that game.
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Regardless of personal opinions, Destiny 1 was wildly popular with a massive population. At any given moment you would see forums filled with things like Shotgun builds are trash, Shoulder Charge is skilless, Quick Scoping is too OP, nerf the handcannons, heavy ammo is going to kill the game- endless complaining and debating about what classes were too OP. You also had weapons that (with some accuracy) were considerably better than others from time to time.... Suros Regime, Vox Mythoclast, Thorn, etc..... and again, and endless forum debate about the quest for balance.
Bungie made an effort to listen with Destiny 2, and give the forums what they wanted.. they took away "the cheese", they have several balanced very similar guns, none too much better than the others, those most complained about shotgun, magnetic grenade spam, etc builds are gone
and now so is the population. So you have Bungie scratching their heads, in a panic trying to reboot their franchise game and figure out why no one feels like playing it anymore..

ESO is on that cliff, I have played since launch, my build options are less and less, I have piles of nerfed golded out gear that are now garbage. there are less way to compete, effective options are fewer and your population is lower too......
I was a game tester for Microsoft a long time ago, like back when you actually had to live near Redmond and drive to their campus to test games. One thing I hope Zenimax knows is that Forums are Mostly Cookie Cutter Meta Players Complaining Because their Cookie Cutter Meta Build isn't Meta Enough. You hear it here constantly, if your a DK you "have to wear this", Sorcs "have to be this race", sometimes the difference in what you "have to do" and reality is so insanely small it's doesn't even register as a realistic statistic probablity over 1000 hours of game play.... Like a 3% damage boost, a few points of magika, a skill that hits for 100 more (who cares), if I hit you 5 times and you hit me 6, you win--- (even if I have that 3 or 4% or whatever) it's almost silly.

So what we have is the majority of our population all playing similar builds, which are supposed to be OP because it was essentially declared by the majority population to be OP, and anything that counters that trend, finds a niche or provides a superior counter ..... must be broken!
- Sheild Breaker is an example. Here was a set around for 2 1/2 years and no one really cared. Then Destro Ult's were introduced, the Sheild Stack Meta came into effect and all of sudden (after no one caring for 2 1/2 years) sheild breaker on lightning staff was this broken, cheating tactic. Never mind that your a magic build using a stamina set, and you utterly worthless against anything but sheild stacking characters. Think about that, your only good against one type of character in the game and all the rest will crush you, but the forum cry goes out and that set gets a nerf. Then sun sheilds, then stam proc builds, ... etc, etc. Your essentially doing what Destiny did to a degree, your taking feedback, thinking your giving the population what it wants, but like a child with candy, a child is going to make itself sick when it gets too much of what it thinks it wants.
- -- Weapon Ults are the same thought process. Two years ago, magic builds complained about Wrecking Blow Spammers, and Snipe Spammers, stam builds complained about Crystal Frag Spammers, (like Destiny Year 1) pretty much every build was in the forums complaining about a different build (which is actually good). Today in Cyrodil, the ever growing combat tactic is to stay alive, stay alive, stay alive..... then everyone stacks a bunch of Ultimates, (probably Eye of Flame). Yes, and I get how there is some individual who will say how they still play an amazing build, and something about zergs, but their is no denying a population change in the past two years, and it is a result of changes I think ESO thought were good... but in fact have pigeon holed players into less and less effective options.

You want the game to not be too harsh for new players, but when you make it so balanced that older players don't have anything to work for, then you lose your core.
THE PROPOSED CHANGE TO UNBALANCED- plenty of builds already use this tactic effectively and are in jeopardy because of a change where it is now the result of a heavy attack spam that is so easily done that you need to add an immunity? The real answer would simply to allow status effects to work on sheilded individuals, (since about 80% of PvP is always under a sheild).- but the outcry from the majority would be negative, so it is not seen as an option.

I guess the point is, do look at Destiny....
Do not give the people exactly what they want, when you see your forum population complaining about some weird build that tore them all up, embrace it and let a natural evolution save your game. You see it with Impen. For a while no one wore impen, then everyone is wearing impen, now again I'm noticing less and less) is the answer to say well since all these people who aren't wearing impen are dying maybe we should nerf critical attacks? No- I wish every case was looked at in this way, instead of what seems like a knee jerk reaction to appease the loudest voices in your ear.

As Game Designers you need to draw on the experience you have, you should know better than trying to appease all the lobbying in here, and remember when people stop complaining because some "trash player" managed to whoop whatever perfect Meta OP youtube "best in slot" build that is never supposed to lose- and it just lost, then it won't be long to people stop playing all together. because you've become Destiny 2.



sorry for the lengthy diatribe, it was therapeutic
Edited by Crom_CCCXVI on December 6, 2017 9:38AM
  • MaddPowered
    MaddPowered
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    Destiny isn't even good
    World's First Planesbreaker
    World's First Bugged Planesbreaker
    World's First Dawnbringer
    World's Third Godslayer
    World's Second Immortal Redeemer
    World's Third Gryphon Heart

    Top scores :
    vAA - 4D (PC NA) - 154,068 - 8:31 Greymoor
    vSO - 4D (PC NA) - 180,238 - 11:28 Greymoor
    vHRC - 4D (PC NA) - 163,258 - 8:28 Greymoor
    vMOL - Calamity (PC NA) - 174,680 - 9:42 Stonethorn
    vHOF - 4D (PC NA) - 232,362 - 14:11 Greymoor
    vAS - 4D (PC NA) - 117,014 - 2:41 Stonethorn
    vCR - Calamity (PC NA) - 136,091 - 3:45 Stonethorn
    vSS - 4D (PC NA) - 255,552 - 21:34 Greymoor
    vKA - 4D (PC NA) - 247,292 - 16:19 Greymoor
    vRG - Calamity (PC NA) - 301,438 - 24:21 Blackwood
  • Elloa
    Elloa
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    I really love and enjoy Destiny2: Its a stunning gorgeous game!
    I also very much enjoy ESO, that being said :P
  • SirAxen
    SirAxen
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    Destiny isn't even good

    I tend to agree.
  • AnviOfVai
    AnviOfVai
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    Problem is with Destiny is it gets very boring very fast. I do like it and I do play it when I just want a refresh on another game, but It does not hold my attention for very long, its continuously repeating the same thing over and over again. You could say thats the same for a PVP player in eso but with ESO's PVP I always find it much more free rein than Destiny.

    That said the game is very appealing to look at and the animations are done incredibly well, its nice to come back to now and again.
    "I appear at my lord's behest, or perhaps I was always here, and you merely lacked the ability to see me."

    PS4 - EU

    AD - Pet Sorcerer - Damage Dealer - 160
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    DC - Templar - Tank - 160
    DC - Sorcerer - Damage Dealer - in - progress
    EP - Dragon Knight -Fire Tank - 160
    EP - Nightblade - Damage Dealer - 160

  • Feric51
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    @Crom_CCCXVI

    I think you've hit on a very important point, and all the replies above me appear to have missed that point entirely.

    Variety is the spice of life. I think OP is pointing out that when he read the original Destiny boards, as with the ESO forums a year ago, there were lots of complaints, but the subject of those complaints was fluid and diverse. We had our Proc set complaints, we had our Blazing shield tank complaints, when I first joined the forum was full of "stamina is meta and magicka builds are trash, pump magicka!", now we have the opposite complaints.

    Vanilla experience breeds boredom, and nerfing everything so that everyone is "balanced" will eventually see the decline of a player base.

    You want to appeal to a casual player? Allow "cheese" builds to give them an advantage over someone living in their mother's basement who can devote 14 hours a day perfecting their rotation and meta build.

    The pre-nerf complaint of proc set stacking PvP gankers? Those were nearly always glass cannon builds that were nearly useless against groups. Even as a solo player, there were counters to proc builds.

    Just last week someone started discussion #28 on how Soul Assault is OP and needs nerfed. This skill is available to literally every class and race in the game, and if it is truly the "most bestest, OPest" skill in PvP, then why isn't everyone running it? It's a niche build that has its counters. If you can't learn how to counter it then you deserve to die.

    The bottom line is I promote diverse, strong, cheesy options over vanilla, boring mediocrity.

    When everyone is special, nobody is...
    Feric51
    Xbox NA

    Darkness Falls: The Crusade survivor (you young kids will never know the struggle of text-based games)


  • T4T2FR34K
    T4T2FR34K
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    Destiny died for me when they took away the loot cave...
  • Oakmontowls_ESO
    Oakmontowls_ESO
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    I thought the reason destiny 2 flopped was because it's had no content.
  • O_LYKOS
    O_LYKOS
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    Destinys population isn't gone because of balancing issues, it's gone because it's boring. It's half the game destiny 1 was. It's watered down for casuals. That's the problem. Imo anyway.
    PC NA - GreggsSausageRoll
  • thomas1970b16_ESO
    thomas1970b16_ESO
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    I think the two games have different target audiences. So they are not comparable per se.
  • idk
    idk
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    Didn't read the entire thing as after two paragraphs OP still didn't begin to get to the point. We don't care about destiny.

    The last paragraph, well, Zos doesn't give into every whim or crying that comes to the forums. Heck, that's a big reason some thing Zos doesn't listen.

    I'm not suggesting Zos dies a great job managing skills and classes by any means. I do believe they analyze their information in an ineffective manner. That and they seem to lack any real vision for the game since it has had more significant changes since day one.

    Some changes make sense like removing the WD/SD from HA. Others don't make so much sense.


    I am assuming OP had one if his builds busted recently is the reason for being upset.
  • Feric51
    Feric51
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    O_LYKOS wrote: »
    Destinys population isn't gone because of balancing issues, it's gone because it's boring. It's half the game destiny 1 was. It's watered down for casuals. That's the problem. Imo anyway.

    I think this is one of the biggest misconceptions plaguing ESO and many other MMO's. ZoS claims that all their nerfs and changes are to benefit the casual players, but most of those changes come from the suggestions (read: salty complaints) on the forums. I would be interested to know what percentage of the forum populace would be considered a true casual player? Casual players, who struggle to make time to play the game, probably don't have the time or energy to create a forum account and get on here and complain. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

    I would consider myself on the casual end of the spectrum. I'm married, couple kids, job; play a few hours at night after everyone else goes to bed and miss a few nights a week with other hobbies/life obligations. I've managed to max CP, though each cap increase puts be a few behind each time, and have completed most content in the game (still no vet trials or DLC dungeons). I don't PvP much, and when I did I unabashedly attempted to use the "cancer" sets to give me any type of advantage over the min/maxers with their meta builds and skills. I would wager that in ESO and other MMO's casual players are the ones hurt the most by nerfs and "balances" intended to make their lives easier. I think most would agree that changes to things such as sustain, mundus stones, set bonus nerfs have made the game more difficult. Let me tell you, from a casual player perspective, this difficulty increase is magnified for us. I don't have the time to regrind for the new BiS set, I don't have 14 other CP-level characters to choose from when my preferred class/race becomes irrelevant.

    Before everyone bashes the casual players for the changes, I'd encourage you to actually communicate with some of us. We're worse off than you, and we don't like it either! Not that I expect anyone from ZoS to be reading this, but if you want to get feedback from the casuals, you need to stop basing all your decisions on PTS feedback (neglects all console users and again, probably not many casuals playing on PTS), and consider alternate methods of outreach communication and not just forums or Reddit (which I've never even visited).

    I will gladly discuss the concerns of a casual player with @ZOS_GinaBruno if you'll hear me. Civilized, non-salty constructive criticism and praise. Just hit me up.
    Feric51
    Xbox NA

    Darkness Falls: The Crusade survivor (you young kids will never know the struggle of text-based games)


  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
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    With exception of balancing some obvious things in PVP (which ZOS still does incrementally and at a snail's pace) and trying to limit power creep in Trials, ZOS doesn't actually worry about "balance". The game changes aren't really about balance. They're about tying progression in the game to grinding.

    ZOS does care about making players change their builds. Changing builds = grinding = more playtime = players still in game = $$$$ for ZOS. When you call something "meta" and players rush to play the "flavor of the month" ZOS looks at that and makes a note "hmm, guess what's coming up on the next major change!" ZOS doesn't want you to be happy with your build, complete content and be done with the game. ZOS wants you to keep grinding and keep playing seeking after a perfect build.

    If you pay attention, ZOS' changes are constantly creating a new "flavor of the month" carrot for players to chase so that they'll stay in game rather than being satisfied with their characters and then leaving.
  • Tan9oSuccka
    Tan9oSuccka
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    They took away the grind in Destiny 2, players bailed without the gear treadmill.

    Destiny 1 seemed exciting and refreshing to me. You had to work to get good stuff. Raids were tough but not horribly tedious.

    Destiny 2 raiding is tedious, long and generally not fun.
  • Balamoor
    Balamoor
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    I like Destiny 2
    I like ESO


    I think both companies do different things well and don't have to learn anything form the other
  • BlazingDynamo
    BlazingDynamo
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    O_LYKOS wrote: »
    Destinys population isn't gone because of balancing issues, it's gone because it's boring. It's half the game destiny 1 was. It's watered down for casuals. That's the problem. Imo anyway.

    "Watered down for casuals" you hit eso right on the head.

    But you're right Bungie tried doing the same to Destiny but the community actually took a stand against it now they are back paddling. 7-8 months time D2 will be exactly what it needs it be...and eso? Well you'll get a new season of crown crates at least lol
    Edited by BlazingDynamo on December 6, 2017 10:39PM
  • Apache_Kid
    Apache_Kid
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    Destiny sucks and was never good.
  • Cadbury
    Cadbury
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    Although I played Destiny extensively, I've yet to play Destiny 2. Wasn't there some controversy over XP gains that Bungie was forced to acknowledge and apologize for?
    "If a person is truly desirous of something, perhaps being set on fire does not seem so bad."
  • BlazingDynamo
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    Cadbury wrote: »
    Although I played Destiny extensively, I've yet to play Destiny 2. Wasn't there some controversy over XP gains that Bungie was forced to acknowledge and apologize for?

    There was hidden diminishing XP returns when grinding the same activities over and over. The game would tell you you got 10k xp but really you got 9k and less and less. Wasn't really something I for one noticed or cared about. Takes no time at all to level but those who bought XP boosters seemed to be the most upset.
  • Cadbury
    Cadbury
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    Cadbury wrote: »
    Although I played Destiny extensively, I've yet to play Destiny 2. Wasn't there some controversy over XP gains that Bungie was forced to acknowledge and apologize for?

    There was hidden diminishing XP returns when grinding the same activities over and over. The game would tell you you got 10k xp but really you got 9k and less and less. Wasn't really something I for one noticed or cared about. Takes no time at all to level but those who bought XP boosters seemed to be the most upset.

    Ah, I see. Thanks for the info. I was mostly curious about that because I was reading a post on Reddit mentioning that and comparing it to EA's SW Battlefront 2 lootboxes as proof of how "evil" video game companies are becoming.
    "If a person is truly desirous of something, perhaps being set on fire does not seem so bad."
  • BlazingDynamo
    BlazingDynamo
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    Cadbury wrote: »
    Cadbury wrote: »
    Although I played Destiny extensively, I've yet to play Destiny 2. Wasn't there some controversy over XP gains that Bungie was forced to acknowledge and apologize for?

    There was hidden diminishing XP returns when grinding the same activities over and over. The game would tell you you got 10k xp but really you got 9k and less and less. Wasn't really something I for one noticed or cared about. Takes no time at all to level but those who bought XP boosters seemed to be the most upset.

    Ah, I see. Thanks for the info. I was mostly curious about that because I was reading a post on Reddit mentioning that and comparing it to EA's SW Battlefront 2 lootboxes as proof of how "evil" video game companies are becoming.

    EA's loot crates were P2W Destiny much like ESO only offers cosmetics. People really took that EA thing and ran with it, I agree P2W is bs I use to play Trove when it was in beta for console and it was dope but it was super pay to win which was an instant turn off. Cosmetics on the other hand aren't a big deal at all
  • NewBlacksmurf
    NewBlacksmurf
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    Destiny isn't even good

    It’s really not but for the holiday price it’s something else to play taking breaks from this or that. Also I’ve found real life friends are on today so why not.

    I can’t say ESO could learn from Destiny 2. Maybe ESO could learn from the bug fix quality but everyone would flip out if ESO 2 were made and we had to start over with the same basic setup
    Edited by NewBlacksmurf on December 7, 2017 4:37AM
    -PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
    ~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *501
  • Publius_Scipio
    Publius_Scipio
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    Destiny 2 isn’t a success? Officially?
  • xb1LL_mr_sir_LL
    xb1LL_mr_sir_LL
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    bought destiny 2 played 10 days then uninstalled. id experienced everything it had to offer way to quickly.
    ive played eso for over 7000 hrs and still have things to do.
  • Pwnyridah
    Pwnyridah
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    Destiny 2 is terrible. No endgame, no gun customization, no skill customization, terrible developers that are reactive rather than proactive, terrible communication from bungo, the list goes on...
  • Zbigb4life
    Zbigb4life
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    Destiny isn't even good

    And ESO is???
  • Nightves
    Nightves
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    A lot of people are using this thread as a reason to *** on Destiny. Like holy christ who much did Bungie *** in your scrambled eggs this morning?

    The dude is simply restating another game's history with a similar situation that ESO is going through.

    Yet people want to brag about how fast they hit the refund button than to talk about how ZoS is incapable of accepting that nothing will ever be "balanced".

  • Milvan
    Milvan
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    Forget about destiny.
    ESO could learn from eastern mmorpgs. Also, eastern mmorpgs could also learn a lot from ESO.

    Mostly asians mmorpgs are like 10 years ahead ESO if you compares features and engine. Tho, their
    aesthetics, grindness and rngness (anyone that complains about ESO RNG have never played a asian mmorpg) kills or burnout most of the games here in the west.
    “Kings of the land and the sky we are; proud gryphons.” Stalker stands, the epitome of pride. Naked and muscular, his wings widen and his feet dig in as if he alone holds down the earth and supports the heavens, keeping the two ever separate.”
    Gryphons guild - @Milvan,
  • Tan9oSuccka
    Tan9oSuccka
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    Pwnyridah wrote: »
    Destiny 2 is terrible. No endgame, no gun customization, no skill customization, terrible developers that are reactive rather than proactive, terrible communication from bungo, the list goes on...

    I totally agree. ESO would be best off not emulating anything from the Destiny franchise.
  • Zaldan
    Zaldan
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    ZO$ seems to take a perverse pleasure in refusing to learn from other games mistakes/success, ESO is theirs and they going to make it the way they want whether it's a good idea or not :(
    Dovie'andi se tovya sagain.
    Niidro tiid wah fusvok dirkah.

    aka.@Cuthceol
  • Drachenfier
    Drachenfier
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    I think Destiny 2 is pretty good, I play it when I'm not playing ESO, which I also think is pretty good (although ESO has some serious network issues).
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