My issues with falsely accusing people of hacking.

CoJaxDeBrujah · November 2017

This is a bit long winded but bare with me there is a point at the end.

I've just returned to eso after a stint of not playing. I soon realized that I no longer remember how to play the character I had, after so long away from the game. I decided that it was best for me to start from scratch and make a new character, and thus was born Leora le Fey, a Breton sorceress. Fast forward 10 levels, and I'm in the second ebonheart zone after the tutorial. I have 251 champion points and set training gear that was made for me by my buddy. I'm running along knocking out quests and a random level 13 new player challenges me to a duel. I'm thinking why not and so accept. The banner drops, the start timer counts down, and the match begins. My familiar charges my opponent, and the guy zones in on it and starts trying to kill it. With him distracted and my cp and gear advantage I quickly dispatch him. Usually this is the point where we congratulate each other on a duel well fought, instead I receive a whisper message accusing me of using hacks. Now as I stated before I have set gear and 251cp which gives me an advantage over the guy. There was no hacks involved, just a power difference in my favor, despite the fact that I'm 3 levels lower then him.

Some people seem to be so sure of there power or skill, that the only way for someone to beat them, in their mind, is to employ hacks. The thing is, there is always going to be someone out there that is better or stronger than you. If this guy had just been courteous instead of hurling accusations at me, I may have been willing to give the guy pointers on what he could have done differently, or advised him of good places to grind to get stronger.

The point of this story is when you act like my opponent did you show a lack of willingness to learn and grow. Until you understand that your abilities and knowledge will always have room for improvement, regardless of how good you may think you are, you will never get far in this type of game.

Next time someone beats you ask them how they did it. Figure out what you could have done differently. And over all be nice to your fellow adventurers and they will be more willing to help you when you need it.

Turelus · November 2017

This is why I take every "cheating and hacking rampant in ESO" thread/post with a grain of salt.

Everyone is so sure the enemy cheats, but are unwilling to accept the fact maybe they just didn't understand the situation fully or are just bad at the game. I hate to think how many reports ZOS must get of cheating which have nothing to do with cheating at all.

Also before people jump on the rage posting, yes I am aware cheating does happen and is possible.

SHADOW2KK · November 2017

This `oh I died, so you must hack` whines have been around for years and years, some people just cannot accept the fact they got pwned and hackusations inevitaby result.

Nature of online gaming, genre does not matter.

There will probably will always be that salty element

In a ideal world, more people would do as you suggested, if the world lasts that long lol.

Bakkagami · November 2017

99% of people complaining about hacking/exploiting/cheating end up being people who just don't know how to use mechanics as well as the guy who beat them... but try telling that to a cyrodil zone chat and just watch what happens lol.

Ratzkifal · November 2017

At first I was highly sceptical of this thread, promising that there would be a point at the end. I was about to leave disappointed when out of nowhere

[..] to help you when you need it.

There it was. The point at the end, right after the "it". I was sceptical but you did deliver as advertised. Cheers.

VelimOrthic · November 2017

I've seen so many people get pissed at just the implication, but when you KNOW for a fact it's ongoing, and it's difficult to distinguish between a great build you can't fathom and the cheating you've 100% experienced, you need to realize people are going to get emotional at times.

Here's the flipside to your post. Immediately disparaging people who say in chat that they've been done wrong implies that you're saying "ah come on, nobody ever does that kind of thing." Which of course has been proven incorrect by past mass bannings.

You're no less of a reactionary. Just as some people have seen outright cheating plenty of times, you've seen plenty of pugs who just suck at the game calling foul. You're assuming people [snip] jump to conclusions every bit as much as the bad players jump to conclusions about cheating.

[Edited to remove profanity]

CoJaxDeBrujah · November 2017

Ratzkifal wrote: »

At first I was highly sceptical of this thread, promising that there would be a point at the end. I was about to leave disappointed when out of nowhere

[..] to help you when you need it.

There it was. The point at the end, right after the "it". I was sceptical but you did deliver as advertised. Cheers.

This right here made my day. Lol. Love the way you reeled me in thinking it was praise and then hit me with the punch line.

Asmael · November 2017

This is called the Dunning-Kruger effect, which is a poor perception of your own game knowledge as opposed to your actual game knowledge. Anything that falls beyond their limited vision is something that becomes unnatural - as in not achievable by normal means. This funnily enough goes way beyond the scope of video games alone and has a very strong impact on current society.

Pretty easily seen with a poll that was made some times ago, asking people to judge their average skill level at the game from 1 to 10. While the most expected answer should be 5, it was in fact 7. It is much easier to blame others than one own's faults.

CoJaxDeBrujah · November 2017

VelimOrthic wrote: »

I've seen so many people get pissed at just the implication, but when you KNOW for a fact it's ongoing, and it's difficult to distinguish between a great build you can't fathom and the cheating you've 100% experienced, you need to realize people are going to get emotional at times.

Here's the flipside to your post. Immediately disparaging people who say in chat that they've been done wrong implies that you're saying "ah come on, nobody ever does that kind of thing." Which of course has been proven incorrect by past mass bannings.

You're no less of a reactionary. Just as some people have seen outright cheating plenty of times, you've seen plenty of pugs who just suck at the game calling foul. You're assuming people [snip] jump to conclusions every bit as much as the bad players jump to conclusions about cheating.

You make a valid point, And l am glad you did. If I in any way implied that all accusations of hacking are false I apologize, that wasn't my intention. No one should jump to conclusions, whether it's that someone hacked, or that an accusation is false. Hacking does happen and I would be naive if I said otherwise, however I imagine that only a fraction of the numerous reports that get sent in are true. If less people jumped to conclusions, it would be for the best.

[Edited for quote[

Aeorath · November 2017

This is why I decline duels automatically. If I want PVP I'll go get steamrolled in Cyrodiil.

ToRelax · November 2017

Asmael wrote: »

This is called the Dunning-Kruger effect, which is a poor perception of your own game knowledge as opposed to your actual game knowledge. Anything that falls beyond their limited vision is something that becomes unnatural - as in not achievable by normal means. This funnily enough goes way beyond the scope of video games alone and has a very strong impact on current society.

Pretty easily seen with a poll that was made some times ago, asking people to judge their average skill level at the game from 1 to 10. While the most expected answer should be 5, it was in fact 7. It is much easier to blame others than one own's faults.

Well, what audience did the poll get? It could be skewed just by what kinds of players are likely to see and participate. I'd still expect a higher average than 5.5, though.

Sunburnt_Penguin · November 2017

The accusations aren’t the players’ faults, it’s ZOS’s.

This is all conjecture from heresay but it seems to me that CE had been so widely used and ignored by ZOS that innocent players martyred themselves, facing permanent bans, in order to make it blantantly obvious that CE is possible to actually get something done about it.

However, the issue of CE being difficult to catch - that was probably the reason for ZOS ignoring the reports in the first place - is still present in the game, as well as actual users of CE who either only got temporary bans or created new accounts.

So if I was on PC, the issue to me now would be that: if players previously clearly adjusted their stats to something noticeable by others but not noticeable by ZOS, it is entirely possible that they could now adjust their stats to something which isn’t noticeable to both others and ZOS, but still gives them a performance benefit.

When that uncertainty arises, it’s naturally going to cause people to question things that they don’t see as possible.

Dragonnord · November 2017

So, you mean also that no one uses macros/hacks/cheat engine to win in PvP?

Wake up dude, as not all wins are legit.

I personally know players that cheat in PvP. I tell them that their accounts may be banned at any moment but they just don't care.

starkerealm · November 2017

CoJaxDeBrujah wrote: »

Now as I stated before I have set gear and 251cp which gives me an advantage over the guy.

Ultimately, it's not even the stats which matter here. You have superior system knowledge. (I mean, I am guessing here, but it's a fairly safe bet.) That will vastly outweigh any stat difference.

Urza1234 · November 2017

ToRelax wrote: »

Asmael wrote: »

This is called the Dunning-Kruger effect, which is a poor perception of your own game knowledge as opposed to your actual game knowledge. Anything that falls beyond their limited vision is something that becomes unnatural - as in not achievable by normal means. This funnily enough goes way beyond the scope of video games alone and has a very strong impact on current society.

Pretty easily seen with a poll that was made some times ago, asking people to judge their average skill level at the game from 1 to 10. While the most expected answer should be 5, it was in fact 7. It is much easier to blame others than one own's faults.

Well, what audience did the poll get? It could be skewed just by what kinds of players are likely to see and participate. I'd still expect a higher average than 5.5, though.

It got the audience able to convince ZOS to actually verify their forum account, thats more of an ordeal than vWGT any day.

CoJaxDeBrujah · November 2017

CarbonX wrote: »

So, you mean also that no one uses macros/hacks/cheat engine to win in PvP?

Wake up dude, as not all wins are legit.

I personally know players that cheat in PvP. I tell them that their accounts may be banned at any moment but they just don't care.

I've already addressed this. This post in no way was meant to imply that hacking doesn't happen. To say otherwise is naive. I was referring to the false accusations.

Turelus · November 2017

Sunburnt_Penguin wrote: »

The accusations aren’t the players’ faults, it’s ZOS’s.

This is all conjecture from heresay but it seems to me that CE had been so widely used and ignored by ZOS that innocent players martyred themselves, facing permanent bans, in order to make it blantantly obvious that CE is possible to actually get something done about it.

However, the issue of CE being difficult to catch - that was probably the reason for ZOS ignoring the reports in the first place - is still present in the game, as well as actual users of CE who either only got temporary bans or created new accounts.

So if I was on PC, the issue to me now would be that: if players previously clearly adjusted their stats to something noticeable by others but not noticeable by ZOS, it is entirely possible that they could now adjust their stats to something which isn’t noticeable to both others and ZOS, but still gives them a performance benefit.

When that uncertainty arises, it’s naturally going to cause people to question things that they don’t see as possible.

The problem is even if ZOS is doing something we won't know and players have made up their own minds regardless of what ZOS say.
Let's say ZOS makes a thread and says "we are aware of cheat engine and players caught using it have been banned, this happens on a regular basis" people will call them liars or say they don't do anything because they see cheaters in the game still every day.

When someone like in the OP's story believes someone else is cheating, they're not going to take ZOS' word for it, they've already convinced themselves and they'll go and tell all their friends how cheaters/exploiter are not removed, then they will tell their friends, then they will post on the forums and more people will believe it.

There is no solution to this issue because we refused to believe ZOS and will no doubt continue to disbelieve everything they say even if they do tell us.

CoJaxDeBrujah · November 2017

starkerealm wrote: »

CoJaxDeBrujah wrote: »

Now as I stated before I have set gear and 251cp which gives me an advantage over the guy.

Ultimately, it's not even the stats which matter here. You have superior system knowledge. (I mean, I am guessing here, but it's a fairly safe bet.) That will vastly outweigh any stat difference.

True. Honestly if he had ignored the familiar and targeted me he could have won.
Edit: my build is designed to gain levels not to fight pvp.

Sunburnt_Penguin · November 2017

Turelus wrote: »

Sunburnt_Penguin wrote: »

The accusations aren’t the players’ faults, it’s ZOS’s.

This is all conjecture from heresay but it seems to me that CE had been so widely used and ignored by ZOS that innocent players martyred themselves, facing permanent bans, in order to make it blantantly obvious that CE is possible to actually get something done about it.

However, the issue of CE being difficult to catch - that was probably the reason for ZOS ignoring the reports in the first place - is still present in the game, as well as actual users of CE who either only got temporary bans or created new accounts.

So if I was on PC, the issue to me now would be that: if players previously clearly adjusted their stats to something noticeable by others but not noticeable by ZOS, it is entirely possible that they could now adjust their stats to something which isn’t noticeable to both others and ZOS, but still gives them a performance benefit.

When that uncertainty arises, it’s naturally going to cause people to question things that they don’t see as possible.

The problem is even if ZOS is doing something we won't know and players have made up their own minds regardless of what ZOS say.
Let's say ZOS makes a thread and says "we are aware of cheat engine and players caught using it have been banned, this happens on a regular basis" people will call them liars or say they don't do anything because they see cheaters in the game still every day.

When someone like in the OP's story believes someone else is cheating, they're not going to take ZOS' word for it, they've already convinced themselves and they'll go and tell all their friends how cheaters/exploiter are not removed, then they will tell their friends, then they will post on the forums and more people will believe it.

There is no solution to this issue because we refused to believe ZOS and will no doubt continue to disbelieve everything they say even if they do tell us.

I disagree. I play on PS4 and even though I believe that it’s possible to cheat, the fact that it requires modifying the console and facing a ban on that as well as ESO, is to me, enough of a deterrent to not suspect players of cheating.

Now that it’s known that CE is possible in ESO, if ZOS took similar action to that of Wildcard on ARK which involves updating the community on who got banned, I believe that players would have more faith that ZOS are taking measures to combat this and in turn, would act as a deterrent to people currently and contemplating using it. Whereas currently, players don’t have faith because they don’t know that anything is being done.

CoJaxDeBrujah · November 2017

I'm actually very pleasantly surprised. I didn't expect the amount of discussion this post would generate. I've seen a lot of valid points, and it's stayed civil. This is not something I'm used to. I like it.

VelimOrthic · November 2017

CoJaxDeBrujah wrote: »

the only person I claimed was being harmed by the false accusations of hacking was the accuser.

It's not adding up for me. Why would your "pity" motivate you to post in the first place? And more importantly, why would "pity" motivate you to keep posting and replying and defending so vociferously?

Wouldn't you just be happy that there will always be pugs and you'd be happy to take AP off them? That would be logical. Instead you seem to have a gripe. Which is the opposite.

Turelus · November 2017

Sunburnt_Penguin wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Sunburnt_Penguin wrote: »

The accusations aren’t the players’ faults, it’s ZOS’s.

This is all conjecture from heresay but it seems to me that CE had been so widely used and ignored by ZOS that innocent players martyred themselves, facing permanent bans, in order to make it blantantly obvious that CE is possible to actually get something done about it.

However, the issue of CE being difficult to catch - that was probably the reason for ZOS ignoring the reports in the first place - is still present in the game, as well as actual users of CE who either only got temporary bans or created new accounts.

So if I was on PC, the issue to me now would be that: if players previously clearly adjusted their stats to something noticeable by others but not noticeable by ZOS, it is entirely possible that they could now adjust their stats to something which isn’t noticeable to both others and ZOS, but still gives them a performance benefit.

When that uncertainty arises, it’s naturally going to cause people to question things that they don’t see as possible.

The problem is even if ZOS is doing something we won't know and players have made up their own minds regardless of what ZOS say.
Let's say ZOS makes a thread and says "we are aware of cheat engine and players caught using it have been banned, this happens on a regular basis" people will call them liars or say they don't do anything because they see cheaters in the game still every day.

When someone like in the OP's story believes someone else is cheating, they're not going to take ZOS' word for it, they've already convinced themselves and they'll go and tell all their friends how cheaters/exploiter are not removed, then they will tell their friends, then they will post on the forums and more people will believe it.

There is no solution to this issue because we refused to believe ZOS and will no doubt continue to disbelieve everything they say even if they do tell us.

I disagree. I play on PS4 and even though I believe that it’s possible to cheat, the fact that it requires modifying the console and facing a ban on that as well as ESO, is to me, enough of a deterrent to not suspect players of cheating.

Now that it’s known that CE is possible in ESO, if ZOS took similar action to that of Wildcard on ARK which involves updating the community on who got banned, I believe that players would have more faith that ZOS are taking measures to combat this and in turn, would act as a deterrent to people currently and contemplating using it. Whereas currently, players don’t have faith because they don’t know that anything is being done.

I think ZOS being more open (discussing numbers, not names) would be helpful. I don't believe the PC community is mature enough to believe them though. They're far too salty and bitter and most just believe their own crazy conspiracies rather than what ZOS say these days.

I would be more than happy to be proven wrong though.

Dragonnord · November 2017

CoJaxDeBrujah wrote: »

CarbonX wrote: »

So, you mean also that no one uses macros/hacks/cheat engine to win in PvP?

Wake up dude, as not all wins are legit.

I personally know players that cheat in PvP. I tell them that their accounts may be banned at any moment but they just don't care.

I've already addressed this. This post in no way was meant to imply that hacking doesn't happen. To say otherwise is naive. I was referring to the false accusations.

And how do I know if an accusation is false? How can anyone know if the other player was playing by the rules or indeed cheating and the accuser was right?

When someone accuses it's because he/she knows or BELIEVES the other person is culprit, just like irl.

Turelus · November 2017

CarbonX wrote: »

CoJaxDeBrujah wrote: »

CarbonX wrote: »

So, you mean also that no one uses macros/hacks/cheat engine to win in PvP?

Wake up dude, as not all wins are legit.

I personally know players that cheat in PvP. I tell them that their accounts may be banned at any moment but they just don't care.

I've already addressed this. This post in no way was meant to imply that hacking doesn't happen. To say otherwise is naive. I was referring to the false accusations.

And how do I know if an accusation is false? How can anyone know if the other player was playing by the rules of indeed cheating and the accuser was right?

When someone accuses it's because he/she knows or BELIEVES the other person is culprit, just like irl.

Then a report is fair enough.

However when these players also go on to spread rumour and tell others that people cheat, and then when ZOS doesn't ban them (because there was no cheating) we end up where we are now.

CoJaxDeBrujah · November 2017

VelimOrthic wrote: »

CoJaxDeBrujah wrote: »

the only person I claimed was being harmed by the false accusations of hacking was the accuser.

It's not adding up for me. Why would your "pity" motivate you to post in the first place? And more importantly, why would "pity" motivate you to keep posting and replying and defending so vociferously?

Wouldn't you just be happy that there will always be pugs and you'd be happy to take AP off them? That would be logical. Instead you seem to have a gripe. Which is the opposite.

Why does anyone post to a forum, to discuss something. And is it not natural in a discussion to defend your stance on something. I would like to point out that I have conceded points as well as defended. That is how civil discussion works.

AnthraxVzla · November 2017

Is Ok, some DC lvl 495 spend 4 mins trying to kill my Argonian DK lvl 22 (CP 460) in Vivec playing without food and potions!

CoJaxDeBrujah · November 2017

CarbonX wrote: »

CoJaxDeBrujah wrote: »

CarbonX wrote: »

So, you mean also that no one uses macros/hacks/cheat engine to win in PvP?

Wake up dude, as not all wins are legit.

I personally know players that cheat in PvP. I tell them that their accounts may be banned at any moment but they just don't care.

I've already addressed this. This post in no way was meant to imply that hacking doesn't happen. To say otherwise is naive. I was referring to the false accusations.

And how do I know if an accusation is false? How can anyone know if the other player was playing by the rules of indeed cheating and the accuser was right?

When someone accuses it's because he/she knows or BELIEVES the other person is culprit, just like irl.

There are people though who every time they are beaten they throw out accusations of hacking. Is is this attitude that I'm decrying. The attitude that anyone who beats you automatically has to have cheated.

Shardan4968 · November 2017

High cp 55k hp meta tank invited my stamblade to duel. I don't know how he killed me, propably a cheater.

fred4 · November 2017

There can be a shocking power difference between players with different amounts of CP. That said, I once saw two wardens use the bear and other ultimates simultaneously. Wasn't sure at first, as there was two of them, so posed a question in the zone chat. I immediately got rebuked by a player for suggesting someone was cheating or exploiting. It is a sickening thing to think about. Unfortunately it does happen.

CoJaxDeBrujah · November 2017

CoJaxDeBrujah wrote: »

VelimOrthic wrote: »

CoJaxDeBrujah wrote: »

the only person I claimed was being harmed by the false accusations of hacking was the accuser.

It's not adding up for me. Why would your "pity" motivate you to post in the first place? And more importantly, why would "pity" motivate you to keep posting and replying and defending so vociferously?

Wouldn't you just be happy that there will always be pugs and you'd be happy to take AP off them? That would be logical. Instead you seem to have a gripe. Which is the opposite.

Why does anyone post to a forum, to discuss something. And is it not natural in a discussion to defend your stance on something. I would like to point out that I have conceded points as well as defended. That is how civil discussion works.

If I'm truly being honest though. I'm working the graveyard shift, my tasks at complete, and this discussion is keeping me entertained.

FastBen · November 2017

As we know the simplest conclusion is most probably the right one – when you lose a fight then your opponent is better than you. Just deal with it!!! The other conclusion – he is cheating is just an excuse.
I remember long ago when duels were just dropped to us, a random dude asked for a duel. He was lvl 35 or something and I was around 500 CP. I thought “Ah is he crazy?” and I accepted the duel, thinking how it would be a piece of cake. I lost the duel. The first thing I done was to congratulate him and bow to him. I thought “Wow great job.” The last thought that came to my mind was that he is cheating. Yes I am on a console, but even if I was on PC, that he is cheating, still would be my last thought.
So I totally understand the OP here, because if I was accused of cheating when I am simply better than my opponent, I would be very angry and disappointed.