Do people understand the word profit ???

R4TTIUS · November 2017

Lets make this insanely simple, if ESO made $1 profit a year then the game would be fine. Apart from no new content.

Profit is the figure worked out after you've paid all your bills, which include salaries, bonuses, electricity, water etc etc

So if loot boxes/ crown crates get stopped the game isn't going to go into apocalypse mode people

EDIT

SEEMS LIKE I NEED TO MAKE THIS CLEAR I AM NOT SAYING THEY WOULD CONTINUE TO RUN
AS AN EFFECTIVE BUSINESS BY MAKING $1 PROFIT NO SHAREHOLDER IN THERE RIGHT MIND WOULD BACK THAT BUSINESS.

I AM TRYING TO EXPLAIN THAT THE CROWN CRATES ARE NOT THE BE ALL AND ALL OF THIS GAME IF THEY GET BANNED.

THERE IS ALOT OF PEOPLE WHO SOLELY BELIEVE THEY ARE THE ONLY THING THAT KEEPS THIS GAME ALIVE, JUST READ THE FORUM POSTS OVER THE LAST FEW DAYS.

WHERE ESO HAS PROFIT FROM MANY DIFFERENT WAYS.

Voxicity · November 2017

Okay

DieAlteHexe · November 2017

R4TTIUS wrote: »

Lets make this insanely simple, if ESO made $1 profit a year then the game would be fine. Apart from no new content.

Profit is the figure worked out after you've paid all your bills, which include salaries, bonuses, electricity, water etc etc

So if loot boxes/ crown crates get stopped the game isn't going to go into apocalypse mode people

Investors might want to thump you for this. Whilst it's true, it's hardly what a business wants to see. They are a business. They're in it to make money.

I enjoy the game, pretty much as is (yup there are things I'd like to see fixed) so I've no issue giving them money to help keep the game going. I don't spend much on crates although I'll give 'em a go once in awhile (maybe once a month) so no skin off my nose if they go away. I don't, however, buy into the "omg, it's gambling" bit.

R4TTIUS · November 2017

DieAlteHexe wrote: »

R4TTIUS wrote: »

Lets make this insanely simple, if ESO made $1 profit a year then the game would be fine. Apart from no new content.

Profit is the figure worked out after you've paid all your bills, which include salaries, bonuses, electricity, water etc etc

So if loot boxes/ crown crates get stopped the game isn't going to go into apocalypse mode people

Investors might want to thump you for this. Whilst it's true, it's hardly what a business wants to see. They are a business. They're in it to make money.

I enjoy the game, pretty much as is (yup there are things I'd like to see fixed) so I've no issue giving them money to help keep the game going. I don't spend much on crates although I'll give 'em a go once in awhile (maybe once a month) so no skin off my nose if they go away. I don't, however, buy into the "omg, it's gambling" bit.

Understand what your saying and yeah it would be a bad business model lol.

I just wanted to get the point across as theres so many people at the moment that think they game will be shutdown never to be seen again if regulations/sanctions kick in on crates.

We will beg to differ on the crown crate gambling thing, but I will say ESO is very much more transparent than other companies as you know what possibilities are inside with certainty just not what your gonna get.

DieAlteHexe · November 2017

R4TTIUS wrote: »

DieAlteHexe wrote: »

R4TTIUS wrote: »

Lets make this insanely simple, if ESO made $1 profit a year then the game would be fine. Apart from no new content.

Profit is the figure worked out after you've paid all your bills, which include salaries, bonuses, electricity, water etc etc

So if loot boxes/ crown crates get stopped the game isn't going to go into apocalypse mode people

Investors might want to thump you for this. Whilst it's true, it's hardly what a business wants to see. They are a business. They're in it to make money.

I enjoy the game, pretty much as is (yup there are things I'd like to see fixed) so I've no issue giving them money to help keep the game going. I don't spend much on crates although I'll give 'em a go once in awhile (maybe once a month) so no skin off my nose if they go away. I don't, however, buy into the "omg, it's gambling" bit.

Understand what your saying and yeah it would be a bad business model lol.

I just wanted to get the point across as theres so many people at the moment that think they game will be shutdown never to be seen again if regulations/sanctions kick in on crates.

We will beg to differ on the crown crate gambling thing, but I will say ESO is very much more transparent than other companies as you know what possibilities are inside with certainty just not what your gonna get.

Re: first paragraph; yeah, there is a whoooooole lot of hysterica ongoing on this one.

To me, gambling is putting your money down on the hope of getting something with the strong chance of getting nothing. With crates, you always get something, although perhaps not want you wanted. I kind of like the "SURPRISE" aspect. Then again, I buy Kinder Eggs for the innards too so there's that.

Asardes · November 2017

I really don't care how much profit Zenimax makes - it's a private company so it's not obliged to make their financial situation public AFAIK - as long as it obeys the laws and doesn't make progression dependent on micro-transactions in general and RNG based ones in particular. So as long as they don't put gear in boxes to make game P2W I'm 100% fine with it. If it goes P2W however, I'll cancel my subscription not spend a dime on this game anymore.

JasonSilverSpring · November 2017

R4TTIUS wrote: »

Lets make this insanely simple, if ESO made $1 profit a year then the game would be fine. Apart from no new content.

Profit is the figure worked out after you've paid all your bills, which include salaries, bonuses, electricity, water etc etc

So if loot boxes/ crown crates get stopped the game isn't going to go into apocalypse mode people

Thing is since Zenimax is a private company, we don't know how profitable ESO is. Perhaps without crown crates ESO would not be profitable. We just don't have access to the data to know.

And just turning a very small profit is not enough to keep something going. Perhaps you would move those resources to another project you believe will turn a larger profit.

I do agree the game is healthy. This loading screen issue is going to hurt them though I think. Not break, but hurt.

Sunburnt_Penguin · November 2017

R4TTIUS wrote: »

Lets make this insanely simple, if ESO made $1 profit a year then the game would be fine. Apart from no new content.

Profit is the figure worked out after you've paid all your bills, which include salaries, bonuses, electricity, water etc etc

So if loot boxes/ crown crates get stopped the game isn't going to go into apocalypse mode people

The game wouldn’t be fine. The owners would probably just redeploy the resources to another project/game where they’d make more profit.

R4TTIUS · November 2017

Sunburnt_Penguin wrote: »

R4TTIUS wrote: »

Lets make this insanely simple, if ESO made $1 profit a year then the game would be fine. Apart from no new content.

Profit is the figure worked out after you've paid all your bills, which include salaries, bonuses, electricity, water etc etc

So if loot boxes/ crown crates get stopped the game isn't going to go into apocalypse mode people

The game wouldn’t be fine. The owners would probably just redeploy the resources to another project/game where they’d make more profit.

When I say fine I mean it could competently run and not lose money, and as I said above it isn't how I would describe an ideal business model.

There's just to many people that believe the be all and end all is these crates.

R4TTIUS · November 2017

JasonSilverSpring wrote: »

R4TTIUS wrote: »

Lets make this insanely simple, if ESO made $1 profit a year then the game would be fine. Apart from no new content.

Profit is the figure worked out after you've paid all your bills, which include salaries, bonuses, electricity, water etc etc

So if loot boxes/ crown crates get stopped the game isn't going to go into apocalypse mode people

Thing is since Zenimax is a private company, we don't know how profitable ESO is. Perhaps without crown crates ESO would not be profitable. We just don't have access to the data to know.

And just turning a very small profit is not enough to keep something going. Perhaps you would move those resources to another project you believe will turn a larger profit.

I do agree the game is healthy. This loading screen issue is going to hurt them though I think. Not break, but hurt.

We know there is definitely over a million subscribers so at £9 a month GBP they're are pulling 9-11 million each month of the year on subscriptions alone.

There will easily be a couple hundred million from crown sales alone for non crown crate items.

But yes obviously they will do what they can to keep the exact numbers hidden, and as a private company have that right.

swippy · November 2017

@R4TTIUS is skipping over the whole part where shareholders are anticipatingmaximizing profit, because their involvement is not primarily inside Tamriel. a dynamic equilibrium with sustained lack of growth is not what most big money investors sign up for. once the investment stagnates (as in OP's example where all the shareholders are trying to split up that single dollar) then the investors lose interest and pull out their money, thus dooming the company and shutting off our favorite servers.

i think profit is easy to understand, but what's not being understood is investment capitalism. OP's picking the wrong fight here

R4TTIUS · November 2017

swippy wrote: »

@R4TTIUS is skipping over the whole part where shareholders are anticipatingmaximizing profit, because their involvement is not primarily inside Tamriel. a dynamic equilibrium with sustained lack of growth is not what most big money investors sign up for. once the investment stagnates (as in OP's example where all the shareholders are trying to split up that single dollar) then the investors lose interest and pull out their money, thus dooming the company and shutting off our favorite servers.

i think profit is easy to understand, but what's not being understood is investment capitalism. OP's picking the wrong fight here

Yes I understand that, once again I am not saying that $1 profit is what you want, and I'm not trying to even get into the investment capitalism side as without sounding demeaning to others, it would probably be hard pressed to find many people on here that do understand the nature of it.

We can guarantee the game turns over a minimum of 100-120 million a year in subscriptions alone, then you have crown sales & physical game sales so they're not short of a penny at Zenimax.

As stated previously this was solely to explain to some people not everyone (surprising how little people know about business) that crates being banned or such aren't going to kill this game yes it would dent profits a bit but it's really not going to be that big of a deal.

I am a restaurant consultant by trade and my job is to basically remarket and maximise profits in businesses, even in business that are very profitable if they feel they can press areas and pull more efficiency and therefore make more profit will pull people like me in to see what can be done, outside perspective is generally the best as if you believe you've maximised profit in your business your wrong.

EDIT
Sorry I can probably make it a bit clearer what I was trying to achieve, was that even if a business is only making $1 profit then all there bills are paid and in turn the business could survive.

deleted210304-002304 · November 2017

It isn't that simple. In a game with a publisher you need to make enough of profit in order to keep shareholders happy. If shareholders aren't happy then they can have a say on if a game continues being supported (hence game such as Dead Space that make some money instead of massive piles of it are put to sleep).

Companies don't just want to pay the bills, they want the money to grow, expand and ultimately dominate the market.

ajcorbell · November 2017

Yes, making $1 of profit would be fine, as profits are calculated after salaries have been paid. That being said the shareholders, senior members of staff who make the majority of the decisions will not be paid a salary and will be taking a dividend based on profit, so it would be the end of the world for them if they have nothing to take.

Investors also see no return on 0 profit, and then backing for the game subsides.

So.. I don't know what you are implying.

DRXHarbinger · November 2017

1m profit is nothing. I didn't think private companies had shareholders anyway. Public trading companies do.

Also lest we forget... was the game doing that poorly before scam crates were launched?

Sunburnt_Penguin · November 2017

R4TTIUS wrote: »

Sunburnt_Penguin wrote: »

R4TTIUS wrote: »

Lets make this insanely simple, if ESO made $1 profit a year then the game would be fine. Apart from no new content.

Profit is the figure worked out after you've paid all your bills, which include salaries, bonuses, electricity, water etc etc

So if loot boxes/ crown crates get stopped the game isn't going to go into apocalypse mode people

The game wouldn’t be fine. The owners would probably just redeploy the resources to another project/game where they’d make more profit.

When I say fine I mean it could competently run and not lose money, and as I said above it isn't how I would describe an ideal business model.

There's just to many people that believe the be all and end all is these crates.

Sure, in theory it could run indefinitely with $1 profit p/a but not in practice so I really don’t know why you’ve chosen to include such a meaningless point as a basis for your argument saying the game will be fine. Just say the game will be fine

R4TTIUS · November 2017

Sunburnt_Penguin wrote: »

R4TTIUS wrote: »

Sunburnt_Penguin wrote: »

R4TTIUS wrote: »

Lets make this insanely simple, if ESO made $1 profit a year then the game would be fine. Apart from no new content.

Profit is the figure worked out after you've paid all your bills, which include salaries, bonuses, electricity, water etc etc

So if loot boxes/ crown crates get stopped the game isn't going to go into apocalypse mode people

The game wouldn’t be fine. The owners would probably just redeploy the resources to another project/game where they’d make more profit.

When I say fine I mean it could competently run and not lose money, and as I said above it isn't how I would describe an ideal business model.

There's just to many people that believe the be all and end all is these crates.

Sure, in theory it could run indefinitely with $1 profit p/a but not in practice so I really don’t know why you’ve chosen to include such a meaningless point as a basis for your argument saying the game will be fine. Just say the game will be fine

Because $1 profit is all you need above overheads to pay all your bills.

ADarklore · November 2017

When you look at the number of shareholders, try telling them that you are receiving ZERO dividend and then explain that you decided to be 'charitable' and go with a 'below standard' profit model. Suddenly ESO would find itself without investors and Bethesda would be closing it down... although it isn't ZOS that makes that decision it's Bethesda/ZeniMax anyway. Further, Zenimax is probably also putting some of those profits towards future games like the next ES title development.

monktoasty · November 2017

Do you understand the words predatory profit?

Allowing a profit by any and all means sysyem is allowing evil to occur just so big corporations can squeeze dimes out of everyone.

Profit is a great thing..and there are wonderful ways to make a profit without exploitation

R4TTIUS · November 2017

Gonna stop repeating myself now

ADarklore · November 2017

monktoasty wrote: »

Do you understand the words predatory profit?

Allowing a profit by any and all means sysyem is allowing evil to occur just so big corporations can squeeze dimes out of everyone.

Profit is a great thing..and there are wonderful ways to make a profit without exploitation

I'm sure glad you want businesses based upon your moral views of what is 'good' and what is 'evil'. I don't see how offering something completely optional is 'evil'?

Sunburnt_Penguin · November 2017

R4TTIUS wrote: »

Sunburnt_Penguin wrote: »

R4TTIUS wrote: »

Sunburnt_Penguin wrote: »

R4TTIUS wrote: »

Lets make this insanely simple, if ESO made $1 profit a year then the game would be fine. Apart from no new content.

Profit is the figure worked out after you've paid all your bills, which include salaries, bonuses, electricity, water etc etc

So if loot boxes/ crown crates get stopped the game isn't going to go into apocalypse mode people

The game wouldn’t be fine. The owners would probably just redeploy the resources to another project/game where they’d make more profit.

When I say fine I mean it could competently run and not lose money, and as I said above it isn't how I would describe an ideal business model.

There's just to many people that believe the be all and end all is these crates.

Sure, in theory it could run indefinitely with $1 profit p/a but not in practice so I really don’t know why you’ve chosen to include such a meaningless point as a basis for your argument saying the game will be fine. Just say the game will be fine

Because $1 profit is all you need above overheads to pay all your bills.

Yes but it’s not all you need to keep a business going

Flaminir · November 2017

Not a fan of crown crates... never have been, never will be... and hate the way they now lock certain items behind them... in fact I would have spent more if the items WEREN'T in the crates as I don't want to endlessly gamble.

But as long as it stays cosmetic as it is now then it doesn't cause a big problem for me, and if it helps them make money and keep the game going then fine.

Ohtimbar · November 2017

As a (former) small business owner, I wouldn't even get out of bed in the morning for a $1 profit, and neither would most sane individuals. Owners have an obligation to their partners, customers and employees to invest in their own products and services. Razor thin margins make it extremely difficult for all but the largest companies to operate in such a fashion (as Amazon does, and even that will change eventually).

swippy · November 2017

ah, gotcha.

tbh, you had me at "restaurant". like, "Oh! You something something restaurant? I also something something restaurant!" but i'll try to keep opposed for, y'know, the sake of argument.

so i was just reading several claims (i didn't try to verify) that ESO was started with an expectation/model of 6 million subscribers, and are finding themselves with something more like 1 million. that's still quite a bit more than i pull in, but i don't have as many employees and overhead as they do, and i definitely don't have investors who are that ambitious. we know that they intend to maximize profits but we don't know how short of their expectations they were finding themselves, before they started with the crates. we don't get to read their numbers

so we can only read from the outside.

it seems to me that they tried to bootstrap enthusiasm with holiday events before introducing crates, and then after the crates they were able to continue creating holidays until it was really time to buckle down for the new Chapter. it seems like that success provided enough confidence to announce that Major Update model that they've done a decent enough (i understand that's arguable) job sticking to.

i obviously can't back up any idea that they were in panic mode for a while before finally capitulating to the lootbox thing, but if creative forces were resisting market forces for a period, the timeline fits (as does the order of changes).

i do realize that lots of people will consider me naive for wanting to give the benefit of the doubt that this company and game is trying its best to succeed (which includes not alienating customers) rather than being an evil money-grubbing Sarlacc of greed, but i'm new to MMOs. noobs still have to learn how to hate people who give us stuff we like. plus, sake of argument

swippy · November 2017

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

I didn't think private companies had shareholders anyway.

oh sure. investors put up the capital. if you put up 20% of startup capital you have a 20% share in profits and votes. practicality self-regulates.

Niobium · November 2017

Let's say that the Crown Crates are the only thing stopping them from running at $1 profit (as per your example).

Your argument seems to be that this would be fine and could go indefinitely and therefore Crown Crates being wiped would be fine.

However, as has been pointed out, this is false.

If the company was only running at $1 profit, it would simply close this avenue of investment. So yes, it would be the "be all and end all" because they would simply divert *all* those resources to something that provided more profit.

So I, like many others, are failing to see what your point is because ZOS would simply cut their $1 profit game and do something else.

Tandor · November 2017

DieAlteHexe wrote: »

R4TTIUS wrote: »

DieAlteHexe wrote: »

R4TTIUS wrote: »

Lets make this insanely simple, if ESO made $1 profit a year then the game would be fine. Apart from no new content.

Profit is the figure worked out after you've paid all your bills, which include salaries, bonuses, electricity, water etc etc

So if loot boxes/ crown crates get stopped the game isn't going to go into apocalypse mode people

Investors might want to thump you for this. Whilst it's true, it's hardly what a business wants to see. They are a business. They're in it to make money.

I enjoy the game, pretty much as is (yup there are things I'd like to see fixed) so I've no issue giving them money to help keep the game going. I don't spend much on crates although I'll give 'em a go once in awhile (maybe once a month) so no skin off my nose if they go away. I don't, however, buy into the "omg, it's gambling" bit.

Understand what your saying and yeah it would be a bad business model lol.

I just wanted to get the point across as theres so many people at the moment that think they game will be shutdown never to be seen again if regulations/sanctions kick in on crates.

We will beg to differ on the crown crate gambling thing, but I will say ESO is very much more transparent than other companies as you know what possibilities are inside with certainty just not what your gonna get.

Re: first paragraph; yeah, there is a whoooooole lot of hysterica ongoing on this one.

To me, gambling is putting your money down on the hope of getting something with the strong chance of getting nothing. With crates, you always get something, although perhaps not want you wanted. I kind of like the "SURPRISE" aspect. Then again, I buy Kinder Eggs for the innards too so there's that.

This is the bit a lot of people miss. You're guaranteed to get things that are in principle worth what you spend on the crate even if in practice they may not be worth it to you, in which case it's a simple choice to make as to whether to buy the crate or not. That contrasts with most forms of gambling where you spend your money and either win or lose, there's nothing inbetween, you don't get your stake or its equivalent value back if you lose. Moreover, if you don't get the one thing you want from the crate you can accumulate gems with which to get it as I understand it, not being a crate purchaser myself although I have no problem with them and enjoy the free ones.

Tan9oSuccka · November 2017

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Doctordarkspawn · November 2017

Justification for crown crate thread isn't met with glowing reviews? Shocker.

Corporate thrall alert.

Tan9oSuccka · November 2017

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Justification for crown crate thread isn't met with glowing reviews? Shocker.

Corporate thrall alert.

Illuminati confirmed.

I don’t understand why people get bent out of shape with crates.

Don’t like them? Don’t buy. Nor do you have to.

Is it sucky of them to do? Absolutely.