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• PC/Mac: EU megaserver for maintenance – September 9, 22:00 UTC (6:00PM EDT) - September 10, 16:00 UTC (12:00PM EDT) https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/682784
UPDATED: So... about those Crown Crates in light of Belgium's ruling that they are gambling
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Kiralyn2000✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭lordrichter wrote: »I dont think its gambling. Its like buying a pack of trading cards, something I did a lot when I was a kid. Sometimes you get good cards worth decent money, most of the time you get doubles.
I am surprised how many places don't allow online gambling. I took it for granted that I can play poker on my phone for real money, I didnt realize so many people cant do that legally. Score one for Canada I guess.
Ahh Those trading cards..where it all started. Pokemon it's all your fault!
Pokemon? No. Magic: The Gathering. Humble roots for what it is today.
Go back a few decades for baseball cards, dude.
One thing to remember is that the dictionary definition of "gambling" does not always match any particular country/state/province's legislated definition of "gambling". There are frequently different guidelines for casino gambling, sweepstakes, raffles, lotteries, and other similar systems. And it varies by locale (hence all those threads complaining "why isn't the ESO Sweepstakes offered in my country?!?!?")1 -
Samadhi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭...
BUT, worth mentioning regarding trading cards, its not exactly a good comparison. Because all those 15 card packs had a guaranteed drop rate. Usually it was 1 rare, 3 uncommon, the rest common...that's not exactly the case in ESO (or Overwatch which I also play), the drops from crates don't seem to guarantee a "Rare" in each crate.
The back of the card packs said there was a holographic rare in every 33 cards
it was 11 cards per pack
and it was easy to figure out that since they were on the hanger out of the box as 3 charizard, 3 blastoise, 3 venasaur
that the third pack of each would have the holofoil in it
the only time rares were guaranteed
were in pre-built deck boxes
one could argue this as more proof rates should be listed,
but it tends to be more difficult to find a digital sweet spot than the packaging procedures of cards"If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
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Wrubius_Coronaria✭✭✭✭✭Personally, I don't have a dog in this fight, I've never purchased a Crown Crate, and I never will. If some people are stupid enough to throw their money away buying them that's on them, I'd sooner set my money on fire in my backyard, it would be more entertaining to watch for sure.
It's not about being stupid.
This kind of predatory and manipulative system has been studied and designed carefuly to encourage people to spent a lot of money. (did you know some compagny are employig psychologists for design these kind of pervert system?)
And think how the crown carte algorithm has been designed too. (just read many thread about crown crates opening, you will see it's not fair and something is definitly wrong with droprate vs the amount of money spent)
Some peoples are really addict to gambling games, and it's a serious problem for them, and it can hurt them seriously. Just search on internet, there is many articles explaining this.
Just having that in game is a huge problem and even it's just about cosmetic items it's still really dangerous and not moral at all.
Yeah I spend loads on them... I don't intend to but it happens. If only I could block them somehow outside of game..that would help a lot.
I understand, I had the same problem with star wars the old republic and star citizen. Even sometimes with eso, I've spent too much already in this game in my opinion.1 -
vyndral13preub18_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Farscape76 wrote: »lordrichter wrote: »I dont think its gambling. Its like buying a pack of trading cards, something I did a lot when I was a kid. Sometimes you get good cards worth decent money, most of the time you get doubles.
I am surprised how many places don't allow online gambling. I took it for granted that I can play poker on my phone for real money, I didnt realize so many people cant do that legally. Score one for Canada I guess.
Ahh Those trading cards..where it all started. Pokemon it's all your fault!
Pokemon? No. Magic: The Gathering. Humble roots for what it is today.
Actually try Baseball cards that was the original ....hmm funny no one went to the government crying because they didn't get a mickey mantle in every pack back in that time. Wonder what that generation had that we don't? oh yeah spines and a will to rely on themselves.
Probably a side affect of all the lead in the paint..3 -
Kiralyn2000✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭the only time rares were guaranteed
were in pre-built deck boxes
Depends on the game, I suppose. But all the card packs I bought for games had a specific layout of cards. 15-card magic packs were 1 rare, 3 uncommon, 12 common. But yeah, then there was the random chance of a foil version of one of those cards. And there was always the issue of "yes, one card is a rare. Doesn't mean it's a rare that's any good, that anyone wants, or is worth more than the paper it was printed on."
Kind of like getting yet another bad-trait/wrong weapon from VMA. (well, before trait switching ) 0 -
rfennell_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I think loot boxes are generally a cash grab by developers.
Thing is, if you take revenue streams away they will just have to increase base costs.
All ZOS has to do to make crown crates not gambling is make them a reward in game. They have already done that by giving crates away for free at certain times... That switches the argument around from "you must participate in this gambling to succeed" to a purely optional choice.
Any game that has made loot boxes so compellingly necessary and limited their acquisition to only cash payments is likely going to be affected. ESO's version of loot boxes doesn't really fall under this category and all they will need to do is add a crate as a reward to something challenging on top of the fact that there isn't anything in loot boxes that is compelling to acquire...
ESO has kept their loot boxes purely cosmetic, so it's really probably not going to be largely affected. I mean is there really anything that comes only from loot boxes that's necessary for advancement in game? I'd say no, but I also don't really participate in loot boxes.Edited by rfennell_ESO on November 22, 2017 6:00PM1 -
Samadhi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Kiralyn2000 wrote: »the only time rares were guaranteed
were in pre-built deck boxes
Depends on the game, I suppose. But all the card packs I bought for games had a specific layout of cards. 15-card magic packs were 1 rare, 3 uncommon, 12 common. But yeah, then there was the random chance of a foil version of one of those cards. And there was always the issue of "yes, one card is a rare. Doesn't mean it's a rare that's any good, that anyone wants, or is worth more than the paper it was printed on."
Kind of like getting yet another bad-trait/wrong weapon from VMA. (well, before trait switching )
Yeah, was referring solely to the pokémon cards that were name-dropped in the post he or she was responding to
Maybe pokemon was more crooked because they sold mainly to kids, who they probably did not have to worry about calculating out odds"If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
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Acrolas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think the magic booster pack is a good analogy for the crown crates; for every pack or crate you buy, you get some random rewards. IMO that separates it from gambling. I see the mention of the Radiant Apex rewards frequently as if this changes anything.
“ESRB does not consider loot boxes to be gambling,” said an ESRB spokesperson in an e-mail to Kotaku. “While there’s an element of chance in these mechanics, the player is always guaranteed to receive in-game content (even if the player unfortunately receives something they don’t want). We think of it as a similar principle to collectible card games: Sometimes you’ll open a pack and get a brand new holographic card you’ve had your eye on for a while. But other times you’ll end up with a pack of cards you already have.”
https://kotaku.com/esrb-says-it-doesnt-see-loot-boxes-as-gambling-1819363091
However, there is still substantial legal differences between tangible goods and intangible goods. The major one being that tangible products have both an actual, manufacture-suggested value and a secondary aftermarket value.
Also, when comparing a loot box and a card game, when you purchase loot boxes you aren't necessarily buying core-game-related content, whereas with a card game, each new purchase directly relates to and is part of the core game. You buy cards to play or trade. Your basic loot box is for show.
So these are always difficult debates because there's a little bit of vanity in the picture whether we like to admit to it or not. And nobody likes to be attacked based on their appearance, even a digital one, so it does tend to get and feel a little personal at times.signing off1 -
khele23eb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭P2P offered you 'hell yeah!' moments. F2P offers you 'thank god its over' moments.1 -
Eddyble✭✭✭✭Kiralyn2000 wrote: »the only time rares were guaranteed
were in pre-built deck boxes
Depends on the game, I suppose. But all the card packs I bought for games had a specific layout of cards. 15-card magic packs were 1 rare, 3 uncommon, 12 common. But yeah, then there was the random chance of a foil version of one of those cards. And there was always the issue of "yes, one card is a rare. Doesn't mean it's a rare that's any good, that anyone wants, or is worth more than the paper it was printed on."
Kind of like getting yet another bad-trait/wrong weapon from VMA. (well, before trait switching )
Yeah, was referring solely to the pokémon cards that were name-dropped in the post he or she was responding to
Maybe pokemon was more crooked because they sold mainly to kids, who they probably did not have to worry about calculating out odds
Since I was managing a comic book shop during the Pokémon hoopla, and I used to open boxes to resell individual cards, does that make me the ZOS of that era?
Also, I was referring to M:TG for the 15 card pack, prior to foils and Pokémon. Many card games I played and collector cards I bought followed that layout, not all but most.
Aaaannnd, I just dated myself.
Eddyb1e - Xbox One - NA
Eddyble - PC - NA0 -
DHale✭✭✭✭✭
✭No effect whatsoever. Don’t buy them... easy peezy lemon squeezy.Sorcerna, proud beta sorc. RIP April 2014 to May 31 2016 DArk Brotherhood. Out of retirement for negates and encases. Sorcerna will be going back into retirement to be my main crafter Fall 2018. Because an 8 k shield is f ing useless. Died because of baddies on the forum. Too much qq too little pew pew. 16 AD 2 DC. 0 EP cause they bad, CP 2300 plus 18 level 50 toons. NA, PC, Grey Host#SORCLIVESMATTER actually they don’t or they wouldn’t keep getting nerfed constantly.3 -
Psilent✭✭✭✭✭When I give ZOS real money they are giving me crowns in return, which is what I am buying. If I choose to use those crowns on Crown Crates then that is my choice. I’m not using real money to buy Crown Crates.
I could see Legal using that as a loophole.3 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I thought of asking this question myself on the forums and found the damn post smack bang on top lol!.
Question is ZoS, will you get rid of this behaviour before your forced or do it willingly since you've noticed how much everyone hates them.
but not everyone does hate them. you're on page 6 and you still cant even tell that? some of us have personal responsibility.
have i bought crates in the past? yes
will i buy more? unlikely.
do i think they should be banned? hell no
So you know they're crap and still feel the need to protect business that's unfavourable for costumers? You're likely one of those people that just doesn't care about the content of the crates so you don't care how awfully it is implemented. The biggest crate supporters in these threads have ironically always been people that don't buy crown crates. "You go ahead and keep the game alive with your money while I get to spout nonsense about freedom and how america works." The paying costumer is who really gets to decide what succeeds, not the companies. Of course this is all circumvented when it comes to scam.
FWIW, I do not think the government should be banning them, either.
You can look at my signature and see that I am firmly against them in this game. In an ideal world, ZOS would simply realize that they had some fun with them, and now it is time to stop doing it and move on. Failing that, as one would expect to be the case, governments should simply regulate them and require that they file paperwork and get permits, as is traditional for gambling establishments.
But ban them? No. Only if they don't comply with licensing and regulation.just so everyone is aware
there ruling hinges on the concept that you need items in the crates to proceed / do better, and if that is the case then it becomes a game of chance and is therefore gambling.
as ESO and almost every other game limits crates to cosmetic items they have nothing to worry about, EA is the only big company to actually have pay to win crates,
and for those bashing on ESO it has a very tame system in comparison as you can refund stuff for gems to just straight up buy what you want (except for the dumb exclusive mounts I admit)
and while I would prefer to just see everything in the store, if we must have crates I'm glad they are handled as well as they are.
Actually, just so everyone is aware, as it stands with what I have read today, there is no firm legislation or ruling to define, legally, exactly what they mean. EA opened the door with their loot crates that offered progression. There is no telling how far this door will get kicked open.
We currently live in a world of drama and rhetorical extremes, sanity is often checked at the door. We live in a time of unusally severe "silly season". There is no telling what will come of this.Kiralyn2000 wrote: »lordrichter wrote: »I dont think its gambling. Its like buying a pack of trading cards, something I did a lot when I was a kid. Sometimes you get good cards worth decent money, most of the time you get doubles.
I am surprised how many places don't allow online gambling. I took it for granted that I can play poker on my phone for real money, I didnt realize so many people cant do that legally. Score one for Canada I guess.
Ahh Those trading cards..where it all started. Pokemon it's all your fault!
Pokemon? No. Magic: The Gathering. Humble roots for what it is today.
Go back a few decades for baseball cards, dude.
I went back to the gaming roots, obviously.Edited by Elsonso on November 22, 2017 7:13PMXBox EU/NA:@ElsonsoJannus
PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
PSN NA/EU: @ElsonsoJannus
Total in-game hours: 11321
X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus1 -
Nyx2✭✭✭✭lordrichter wrote: »I thought of asking this question myself on the forums and found the damn post smack bang on top lol!.
Question is ZoS, will you get rid of this behaviour before your forced or do it willingly since you've noticed how much everyone hates them.
but not everyone does hate them. you're on page 6 and you still cant even tell that? some of us have personal responsibility.
have i bought crates in the past? yes
will i buy more? unlikely.
do i think they should be banned? hell no
So you know they're crap and still feel the need to protect business that's unfavourable for costumers? You're likely one of those people that just doesn't care about the content of the crates so you don't care how awfully it is implemented. The biggest crate supporters in these threads have ironically always been people that don't buy crown crates. "You go ahead and keep the game alive with your money while I get to spout nonsense about freedom and how america works." The paying costumer is who really gets to decide what succeeds, not the companies. Of course this is all circumvented when it comes to scam.
FWIW, I do not think the government should be banning them, either.
You can look at my signature and see that I am firmly against them in this game. In an ideal world, ZOS would simply realize that they had some fun with them, and now it is time to stop doing it and move on. Failing that, as one would expect to be the case, governments should simply regulate them and require that they file paperwork and get permits, as is traditional for gambling establishments.
But ban them? No. Only if they don't comply with licensing and regulation.
Ban, not having them - it's all the same to me. This topic isn't new and people are still under the impression that they have to either accept what companies give them or leave. This way of thinking is not a "right to choose" it's costumer censorship which is more what my post was about.0 -
JamilaRaj✭✭✭✭✭
✭ZOS and other videogambling conpanies should in turn ban belgian players. Pesky government officials would then either backpedal or feel wrath of rabid addicts cut off from their favourite online casino.1 -
monktoasty✭✭✭✭✭Farscape76 wrote: »lordrichter wrote: »I dont think its gambling. Its like buying a pack of trading cards, something I did a lot when I was a kid. Sometimes you get good cards worth decent money, most of the time you get doubles.
I am surprised how many places don't allow online gambling. I took it for granted that I can play poker on my phone for real money, I didnt realize so many people cant do that legally. Score one for Canada I guess.
Ahh Those trading cards..where it all started. Pokemon it's all your fault!
Pokemon? No. Magic: The Gathering. Humble roots for what it is today.
Actually try Baseball cards that was the original ....hmm funny no one went to the government crying because they didn't get a mickey mantle in every pack back in that time. Wonder what that generation had that we don't? oh yeah spines and a will to rely on themselves.
Hope you know you can buy the whole set of baseball cards not just packs.
Physical cannot be compared to digital anyways..with physical even your junk cards have value.
Digital the value is rigged..get junk? Turn it into 1crown..need 700 for crate...rigged gambling.
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SugaComa✭✭✭✭✭According to Belgian news site RTBF (Google translated), Belgium's Gaming Commission has not actually finalized its decision on whether loot boxes are gambling. The site says the statement that appeared in the original report, stating that the "mixture of money and addiction is a game of chance," is descriptive of the investigation's intent rather than its conclusion.1
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SFDB✭✭✭✭✭
✭Kiralyn2000 wrote: »the only time rares were guaranteed
were in pre-built deck boxes
Depends on the game, I suppose. But all the card packs I bought for games had a specific layout of cards. 15-card magic packs were 1 rare, 3 uncommon, 12 common. But yeah, then there was the random chance of a foil version of one of those cards. And there was always the issue of "yes, one card is a rare. Doesn't mean it's a rare that's any good, that anyone wants, or is worth more than the paper it was printed on."
Kind of like getting yet another bad-trait/wrong weapon from VMA. (well, before trait switching )
Yeah, was referring solely to the pokémon cards that were name-dropped in the post he or she was responding to
Maybe pokemon was more crooked because they sold mainly to kids, who they probably did not have to worry about calculating out odds
Since I was managing a comic book shop during the Pokémon hoopla, and I used to open boxes to resell individual cards, does that make me the ZOS of that era?
Also, I was referring to M:TG for the 15 card pack, prior to foils and Pokémon. Many card games I played and collector cards I bought followed that layout, not all but most.
Aaaannnd, I just dated myself.
It has been making me wonder about M:TG's online games, which I'm told is simply a digital version of the entire experience, including the pack-opening aspect of it. They're just recreating what they're already doing with physical packs, but it is indistinguishable from loot crates.
Personally, IF we're going to have governments telling game companies what to do, then of far greater concern to me than loot crates are games being killed. If you're going to regulate any part of the industry, require all games that demand an online-only functional for play to have an end-of-life plan to allow for customers who buy your game to keep playing, rather than allowing gaming's culture to have huge gaping wounds in its history (ala the BBC and its mountains of lost culture due to destroyed shows). I would gladly buy loot crates if I knew the funds could ensure that the game could live on with private servers once ZoS decides to put ESO to bed for good.1 -
Hallothiel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Bit of a late reply but to those saying about making it an 'adult' game would affect things - here in the UK the game is an 18 already and this does not affect retail at all.
Is this really such an issue in the US? Is it not an '18' there anyway?1 -
Zorvan✭✭✭✭Hallothiel wrote: »Bit of a late reply but to those saying about making it an 'adult' game would affect things - here in the UK the game is an 18 already and this does not affect retail at all.
Is this really such an issue in the US? Is it not an '18' there anyway?
No, it's not. Here it's 17 and up. An AO ( Adult Rating ) is an 18+ rating here and your game gets ostracized by most retailers if you take that tag. Wal-Mart, for example, gets downright religious nutcase about it and Nintendo,Sony and Microsoft all forbid AO rated games on their consoles.Edited by Zorvan on November 22, 2017 10:09PMI've been muted since November 2017 because of the whiny crybabies on this forum and the liberal ZOS employees coddling them.2 -
Kiralyn2000✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Hallothiel wrote: »Bit of a late reply but to those saying about making it an 'adult' game would affect things - here in the UK the game is an 18 already and this does not affect retail at all.
Is this really such an issue in the US? Is it not an '18' there anyway?
No, it's not. Here it's 17 and up. An AO ( Adult Rating ) is an 18+ rating here and your game gets ostracized by most retailers if you take that tag. Wal-Mart, for example, gets downright religious nutcase about it and Nintendo,Sony and Microsoft all forbid AO rated games on their consoles.
And in the US system, "AO" rated games are 95%+ graphic sex games, and that last few % were rated for violence (and, given the stuff we see in games like Mortal Kombat X & Sniper Elite these days, probably wouldn't get that rating today). It's the equivalent of "X rated" movies. No-one bothers to submit games like that for rating much anymore, they just sell it direct/digital/online.
tl;dr - "M" is really the top rating for adult/mature consumer games in the US, and ESO is already there.1 -
Skwor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭It is disgusting how many morally self rightous jerks there are who want to tell others how they can live and what choices they are allowed to make.
That is all this amounts to.9 -
Balamoor✭✭✭✭✭
✭It is disgusting how many morally self rightous jerks there are who want to tell others how they can live and what choices they are allowed to make.
That is all this amounts to.
They can’t and the legislators and anyone else who thinks something is going to come of this is silly. [snip]
As my sig says....
“Gambling” requires a wager to win something of tangible value. If the thing won can’t be sold or monetized, it isn’t gambling Period.
Any legislator who thinks that a judge or court will side with them over this is an idiot and should resign immediately. Any player who thinks that this will stop Crown Crates or Loot boxes dream on...if anything it will backfire and end up giving developers even more leeway to market how they see fit.
[edited for baiting]Edited by ZOS_CoriJ on November 23, 2017 1:47AM0 -
AhPook_Is_Here✭✭✭✭✭
✭@ZOS_GinaBruno
I hope I'm posting this in the correct forum - it seems like a general topic to me.
The Belgium Gaming Commission has ruled (rather quickly) that yes, loot boxes constitute a form of gambling and they will be seeking that the EU ban them. They focused on the SWBF2 and Overwatch systems but, as I understand it, the ruling is more general than that.
https://www.mmorpg.com/news/belgium-rules-loot-boxes-are-gambling-seeks-to-have-an-eu-ban-implmented-1000046476
IMO, this is a long way from over but it IS a first.
I doubt there will be an official ZOS statement about this but I'm "atting" Gina just in case they do want to comment.
What do the rest of you think?
Personally I don't think Europe should have it's own legal system, it should just be subject to US law, that would make a lot of gamers happier players and I think the world a happier place in general. Europe does too much to curtail the freedom of our corporate citizens.“Whatever.”
-Unknown American1 -
Iselin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »@ZOS_GinaBruno
I hope I'm posting this in the correct forum - it seems like a general topic to me.
The Belgium Gaming Commission has ruled (rather quickly) that yes, loot boxes constitute a form of gambling and they will be seeking that the EU ban them. They focused on the SWBF2 and Overwatch systems but, as I understand it, the ruling is more general than that.
https://www.mmorpg.com/news/belgium-rules-loot-boxes-are-gambling-seeks-to-have-an-eu-ban-implmented-1000046476
IMO, this is a long way from over but it IS a first.
I doubt there will be an official ZOS statement about this but I'm "atting" Gina just in case they do want to comment.
What do the rest of you think?
Personally I don't think Europe should have it's own legal system, it should just be subject to US law, that would make a lot of gamers happier players and I think the world a happier place in general. Europe does too much to curtail the freedom of our corporate citizens.
You forgot the /s3 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@ZOS_GinaBruno
I hope I'm posting this in the correct forum - it seems like a general topic to me.
The Belgium Gaming Commission has ruled (rather quickly) that yes, loot boxes constitute a form of gambling and they will be seeking that the EU ban them. They focused on the SWBF2 and Overwatch systems but, as I understand it, the ruling is more general than that.
https://www.mmorpg.com/news/belgium-rules-loot-boxes-are-gambling-seeks-to-have-an-eu-ban-implmented-1000046476
IMO, this is a long way from over but it IS a first.
I doubt there will be an official ZOS statement about this but I'm "atting" Gina just in case they do want to comment.
What do the rest of you think?
ZoS, EA and Blizzard wont change it, because they operate under American Law, and not EU laws. So nothing will change in the end.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but while the companies may be based out of the US, if they do business in another country, they ARE subject to their laws... just look at judgement against Google, Apple, etc.. all US based companies. And... if they get them banned in the EU, that's a HUGE market they won't want to miss out on.
My guess is, they'll simply remove them from those countries. And if they do, that means they'll need to figure a way to increase revenue to make up for the lost crate revenue.
This is something that has merely just begun. Even that Belgium commission has not even made a final rulling. This is merely preliminary with the minister simply expressing his wish. Yea, they could go through with it but it is likely a long road from where Belgium is now to EU making any changes.
While this is preliminary and far from having an effect anywhere, I guarantee companies are considering their alternatives and especially so since Belgium has expressed their wish to ban all in-game sales. If it comes to fruition game developers will find means to replace that lost revenue from our pockets.
Some who dislike the crates may find the end result less desirable.
Edited by idk on November 22, 2017 11:37PM1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feZ-DahZqjY
This discussion has been closed.