MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

AsheronRealaidain wrote: »

Hey look more calls to nerf something that is working perfectly fine as is

Anything that is considered "must have" to the extent people whine constantly about having to look ugly to use it is not, by and definition, "working fine as is".

All The Best

You'll have to explain your line of though, because I don't follow.

Something is "working as intended" because a ton of people hate the way it works? What?

All the best

How does people liking or disliking the way something works reflect on its intended functionality?

People dislike vampirism because:

1. It is a requirmement for min-maxing

2. It forces a specific appearance on you.

People play MMOs because they can make their own chatacters. This is what separates MMOs from single player RPGs where you play as a specific protagonist. Taking away the ability to customose your character takes away much of the appeal of playing an MMO.

People aren't complaining for the sake of complaining. They are complaining because this implementation of vanpirism doesn't work well in an MMO.

Okay...
but this is totally in-line with unmodded single-player Elder Scrolls titles
where character appearance is customizable at creation, but vampirism alters that appearance

Is there something specific about MMOs that makes the appearance exceptional in terms of defining intended functionality?

Yes. MMOs are social games. People expect to be able to customise a character's appearance without affecting gameplay performance. It's why transmogrification is an industry standard at this point (although ESO lags behind here too, but at least it's coming).

Interesting.
News to me, all my other titles has been f2ps
ESO is my first encounter with even an armour dye system

ESO is also my first MMORPG with character sliders rather than simply choosing preset faces,
and even presets for faces was a step forward from generic sprites
so it got points in that regard

but, personally, play the game to role play
so enjoy that vampirism alters appearance so significantly
respect that people who feel 'obligated' to min/max are concerned with feeling 'obligated' to appear a certain way as a result,
but do not personally run with that crowd, so am unable to relate

would still support a way to 'cover up' vampirism aside from disguises,
but that has been my position going back to before we had armour dyes or costumes added to the game

Kanar wrote: »

Hello ZOS,
A large section of the player base feels that they are forced to take the vampire skill line because it gives their character much more power than without. These players really do not want to be vampires but they feel forced into taking the skill line and this is not right. Of all skill lines, vampire and werewolf should be mostly for "flavor." No one should feel forced to take these skills to be viable in PvE or PvP.

Here are some examples of players feelings about the vampire skill line:

we have to wear vampire for the insane bonuses you get from it. It's not even a choice.

ZOS attached insanely powerful endgame buffs to being a vampire.

Everyone and their mother is a vampire because of the benefits it provides.

you MUST have [vampire] if you wanna do vet hm trials as DD,

Given how players feel forced to take this skill line, I think the game designers should really take a look at the skills and make some changes so that players are not forced into the skill line and instead take the skills because they want to be vampires. Here are some suggestions:
Mist form: change the damage reduction to the Major Protection buff, change elusive mist benefit to minor expedition instead of major. Fix it so that becoming mist form purges all beneficial effects (like shields)

Supernatural recovery: reduce the level 2 bonus to 5% from 10%.

Undeath: change so the maximum damage reduction is 8% (on par with minor protection)

These simple changes would go a long way to giving players the freedom to choose vampire or not, instead of being forced into taking a skill line they do not want.
@ZOS_GinaBruno
Thanks for reading

Insane bonuses?

Please. You get 10% more regen. Whoodeedoo. If losing 10% regen makes someone's character unviable in PvE then there is something seriously wrong with their character and I suggest a complete overhaul.

I'm a vampire and I still have to heavy attack to keep my resources up just like most other people do. So this idea that 10% more regen is some kind of insane bonus that makes being a vampire necessary for PvE content is so ridiculous I can't even keep a straight face while reading it.

And let's not forget you take 25% more damage form fire attacks. There is always that little factor your OP of course fails to point out.

in respect to their skills...frankly the vampire skills suck. Especially in PvE. I have tried hard to find a use for them but can't. They are horrible. Drain essence is so weak it feels more like you are kissing the enemy instead of sucking their blood. And mist form - an expensive temporary buff that stops all regen and healing and you think it should be nerfed further? It's barely useful in PvP as it is - being only good for escaping across short distances and into safely. If they nerfed it any further it's likely no one would ever use it (I know I sure wouldn't). And while the ultimate is decent - it's certainly nothing amazing and I only ever really used it for the looks.

The faster sneak speed is nice. That I will give you. But that is mostly a convenience and certainly nothing game breaking and there are other ways to attain it. And as far as undeath goes - I can barely notice its effect as it is. So reducing it from 33% to 8% would effectively make that a waste of 2 skill points.

I would suggest you play as a vampire first before concluding they are so over-powered all players must be one to be viable or competitive. Because that is hardly the case. So if you don't want to be a vampire then simply don't be one. Your character will be just fine as a result.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

AsheronRealaidain wrote: »

Hey look more calls to nerf something that is working perfectly fine as is

Anything that is considered "must have" to the extent people whine constantly about having to look ugly to use it is not, by and definition, "working fine as is".

All The Best

How does people whining about cosmetic appearance reflect on functionality issues?
Can respect that people who prefer to min/max may have objections about being obligated to appear a certain way to do so,
but there is no obligation for people to min/max to begin with, so it feels slightly redundant.

There is an obligation to min-max in every game with a competitive element. Whether its PvE leader boards or PVP, you are competing with other players to be the best.

The obly way to be the beat in ESO is to be a vampire. That's bad game design.

Could you better elucidate these statements?
You say that every game with a competitive element requires players to adhere to specific mechanics in order to be the "best,"
then complain that the only way to be the best in ESO is to adhere to specific mechanics, which is bad game design

Is your complaint that ZOS is adhering to standard competitive design mechanics?

It takes away your ability to customise your character's appearance, which is another core tenet of the MMO genre.

You need to sacrifice appearance for performance. In an MMO context, that is bad game design.

You display keen insight and I thank you for championing this thread and the effort to revise the vampire skill line! No one should be forced to be a vampire against their will.

Jeremy wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

Hello ZOS,
A large section of the player base feels that they are forced to take the vampire skill line because it gives their character much more power than without. These players really do not want to be vampires but they feel forced into taking the skill line and this is not right. Of all skill lines, vampire and werewolf should be mostly for "flavor." No one should feel forced to take these skills to be viable in PvE or PvP.

Here are some examples of players feelings about the vampire skill line:

we have to wear vampire for the insane bonuses you get from it. It's not even a choice.

ZOS attached insanely powerful endgame buffs to being a vampire.

Everyone and their mother is a vampire because of the benefits it provides.

you MUST have [vampire] if you wanna do vet hm trials as DD,

Given how players feel forced to take this skill line, I think the game designers should really take a look at the skills and make some changes so that players are not forced into the skill line and instead take the skills because they want to be vampires. Here are some suggestions:
Mist form: change the damage reduction to the Major Protection buff, change elusive mist benefit to minor expedition instead of major. Fix it so that becoming mist form purges all beneficial effects (like shields)

Supernatural recovery: reduce the level 2 bonus to 5% from 10%.

Undeath: change so the maximum damage reduction is 8% (on par with minor protection)

These simple changes would go a long way to giving players the freedom to choose vampire or not, instead of being forced into taking a skill line they do not want.
@ZOS_GinaBruno
Thanks for reading

Insane bonuses?

Please. You get 10% more regen. Whoodeedoo. If losing 10% regen makes someone's character unviable in PvE then there is something seriously wrong with their character and I suggest a complete overhaul.

I'm a vampire and I still have to heavy attack to keep my resources up just like most other people do. So this idea that 10% more regen is some kind of insane bonus that makes being a vampire necessary for PvE content is so ridiculous I can't even keep a straight face while reading it.

And let's not forget you take 25% more damage form fire attacks. There is always that little factor your OP of course fails to point out.

in respect to their skills...frankly the vampire skills suck. Especially in PvE. I have tried hard to find a use for them but can't. They are horrible. Drain essence is so weak it feels more like you are kissing the enemy instead of sucking their blood. And mist form - an expensive temporary buff that stops all regen and healing and you think it should be nerfed further? It's barely useful in PvP as it is - being only good for escaping across short distances and into safely. If they nerfed it any further it's likely no one would ever use it (I know I sure wouldn't). And while the ultimate is decent - it's certainly nothing amazing and I only ever really used it for the looks.

The faster sneak speed is nice. That I will give you. But that is mostly a convenience and certainly nothing game breaking and there are other ways to attain it. And as far as undeath goes - i can barely notice its effect as it is. So reducing it from 33% to 8% would effectively make that a waste of 2 skill points.

I would suggest you play as a vampire first before concluding they are so over-powered all players must be one to be viable or competitive. Because that is hardly the case.

Hi, thanks for responding with your very insightful input. I would please direct you here for a better understanding of some of the concepts used in my first post:
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/quote

In addition, it is very nice to hear from a player who is not forced to be a vampire but instead chooses to be one because you enjoy vampirism. I understand your concerns about changing the abilities, but since as you stated you do not use them and they give no advantage than surely it will not be a problem to make a change! This would save many other players from being forced into a choice they do not want.

Well I might would agree with your comment if you were calling for the fire damage penalty to be removed or lessened as well. But I don't remember reading anything about that in your OP.

So if you want to nerf the vampire passives and abilities - making them even less impressive than they already are - -and turning the vampire into basically a costume that requires skill points instead of an actual skill line people would use - then at least do away with the negatives in the process. Because no one is going to opt to spend skill points and become vampire simply so they can die more easily to fire attacks but get a lot of useless skills and passives in the process. Which is essentially what your proposed changes would accomplish. A costume that gets players killed more easily.

Very good feedback. I meant my suggestions as merely a starting point, not the "final solution" so to speak. Certainly I would support removing or lessening the fire vulnerability if the skill line was given an overhaul to make it non-compulsory.
Apologies for the lack of clarity.

Ive been a vampire for over two years on my one and only toon...i love it, the passive are amazing, i dont care what anyone says. Not having vampire would be a nerf on many fronts to me. 10% regen on my currently buffed 2500 mag regen is quite a bit, it about 150 regen id be losing. Undeath passive means at 10% health while im blocking or mist forming, you arent killing me with an execute, allowing me to yoyo back to 100% in a few casts of honor the dead.

Invigorating drain/ accelorating drain, heh...this skill is awesome, both morphs. Its a great stun i keep on my back bar to cast and bar swap to commence pwnage on my mainbar.

Mistform is bread and butter in openworld, hell even in duels or BGs. Reset the fight, jump around a rock and regen. I would be lost without my love...also noticed that for some reason mist form speed the proccess on sneak, ive jumped into sneak while being smacked by five guys on my tail.

ive been playing around with batswarm, this ult is a bit underpowered, its great for heals, but the damage seems weak compared to others, and the teleport morph is extrenely clunky, its wasted if i dont spam it, but trying to spam it on one target means i miss half the time im trying to hit it. They should make the teleport instant on cast to your target then give it some other buff.

Anyway...i love vamp, i think it needs buffs as opposed to nerf honestly. Nerfing vampire is NOT the answer. Having a "pure" blood line is the answer. With its own set of buffs and passives that everyone whose not a vamp or WW get access to. As to wut those skills should be i have no clue...

Kanar wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

Hello ZOS,
A large section of the player base feels that they are forced to take the vampire skill line because it gives their character much more power than without. These players really do not want to be vampires but they feel forced into taking the skill line and this is not right. Of all skill lines, vampire and werewolf should be mostly for "flavor." No one should feel forced to take these skills to be viable in PvE or PvP.

Here are some examples of players feelings about the vampire skill line:

we have to wear vampire for the insane bonuses you get from it. It's not even a choice.

ZOS attached insanely powerful endgame buffs to being a vampire.

Everyone and their mother is a vampire because of the benefits it provides.

you MUST have [vampire] if you wanna do vet hm trials as DD,

Given how players feel forced to take this skill line, I think the game designers should really take a look at the skills and make some changes so that players are not forced into the skill line and instead take the skills because they want to be vampires. Here are some suggestions:
Mist form: change the damage reduction to the Major Protection buff, change elusive mist benefit to minor expedition instead of major. Fix it so that becoming mist form purges all beneficial effects (like shields)

Supernatural recovery: reduce the level 2 bonus to 5% from 10%.

Undeath: change so the maximum damage reduction is 8% (on par with minor protection)

These simple changes would go a long way to giving players the freedom to choose vampire or not, instead of being forced into taking a skill line they do not want.
@ZOS_GinaBruno
Thanks for reading

Insane bonuses?

Please. You get 10% more regen. Whoodeedoo. If losing 10% regen makes someone's character unviable in PvE then there is something seriously wrong with their character and I suggest a complete overhaul.

I'm a vampire and I still have to heavy attack to keep my resources up just like most other people do. So this idea that 10% more regen is some kind of insane bonus that makes being a vampire necessary for PvE content is so ridiculous I can't even keep a straight face while reading it.

And let's not forget you take 25% more damage form fire attacks. There is always that little factor your OP of course fails to point out.

in respect to their skills...frankly the vampire skills suck. Especially in PvE. I have tried hard to find a use for them but can't. They are horrible. Drain essence is so weak it feels more like you are kissing the enemy instead of sucking their blood. And mist form - an expensive temporary buff that stops all regen and healing and you think it should be nerfed further? It's barely useful in PvP as it is - being only good for escaping across short distances and into safely. If they nerfed it any further it's likely no one would ever use it (I know I sure wouldn't). And while the ultimate is decent - it's certainly nothing amazing and I only ever really used it for the looks.

The faster sneak speed is nice. That I will give you. But that is mostly a convenience and certainly nothing game breaking and there are other ways to attain it. And as far as undeath goes - i can barely notice its effect as it is. So reducing it from 33% to 8% would effectively make that a waste of 2 skill points.

I would suggest you play as a vampire first before concluding they are so over-powered all players must be one to be viable or competitive. Because that is hardly the case.

Hi, thanks for responding with your very insightful input. I would please direct you here for a better understanding of some of the concepts used in my first post:
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/quote

In addition, it is very nice to hear from a player who is not forced to be a vampire but instead chooses to be one because you enjoy vampirism. I understand your concerns about changing the abilities, but since as you stated you do not use them and they give no advantage than surely it will not be a problem to make a change! This would save many other players from being forced into a choice they do not want.

Well I might would agree with your comment if you were calling for the fire damage penalty to be removed or lessened as well. But I don't remember reading anything about that in your OP.

So if you want to nerf the vampire passives and abilities - making them even less impressive than they already are - -and turning the vampire into basically a costume that requires skill points instead of an actual skill line people would use - then at least do away with the negatives in the process. Because no one is going to opt to spend skill points and become vampire simply so they can die more easily to fire attacks but get a lot of useless skills and passives in the process. Which is essentially what your proposed changes would accomplish. A costume that gets players killed more easily.

Very good feedback. I meant my suggestions as merely a starting point, not the "final solution" so to speak. Certainly I would support removing or lessening the fire vulnerability if the skill line was given an overhaul to make it non-compulsory.
Apologies for the lack of clarity.

What about tanks who don't want to feel pressured to wear heavy armor? Or mages who don't want to feel pressured to wear light armor?

Should we also nerf those passives and skills?

It seems to me you want to make choices on this game cosmetic in nature with no real effect on game play because you feel it forces people to do things. Such a perspective would lead to a very bland and dull game IMHO. I prefer one that offers real choices that come at a cost but offer real benefits as well.

This idea that everyone has to be 100% balanced with everyone else and don't you dare lose 10% regen when compared to another class or build because that means you suck in min/max world is destroying this genre.

So if you don't want to be a vampire then simply don't be one. Because there is no good reason to resent their 10% more regen because it's not going to make or break your character in any significant way.

Now of course serious imbalance issues need to be addressed. But this is just not one of those situations.

Kanar wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

AsheronRealaidain wrote: »

Hey look more calls to nerf something that is working perfectly fine as is

Anything that is considered "must have" to the extent people whine constantly about having to look ugly to use it is not, by and definition, "working fine as is".

All The Best

How does people whining about cosmetic appearance reflect on functionality issues?
Can respect that people who prefer to min/max may have objections about being obligated to appear a certain way to do so,
but there is no obligation for people to min/max to begin with, so it feels slightly redundant.

There is an obligation to min-max in every game with a competitive element. Whether its PvE leader boards or PVP, you are competing with other players to be the best.

The obly way to be the beat in ESO is to be a vampire. That's bad game design.

Could you better elucidate these statements?
You say that every game with a competitive element requires players to adhere to specific mechanics in order to be the "best,"
then complain that the only way to be the best in ESO is to adhere to specific mechanics, which is bad game design

Is your complaint that ZOS is adhering to standard competitive design mechanics?

It takes away your ability to customise your character's appearance, which is another core tenet of the MMO genre.

You need to sacrifice appearance for performance. In an MMO context, that is bad game design.

You display keen insight and I thank you for championing this thread and the effort to revise the vampire skill line! No one should be forced to be a vampire against their will.

But no one is forced to be a vampire against their will.

That's the underlying problem with your argument. It's built on an imaginary premise. You can play this game just fine without becoming a vampire.

@MLGProPlayer could you please help enlighten this poor lost soul? I believe you are far superior to me when it comes to expounding on this topic.

There is nothing for MLGProPlayer to enlighten me about.

He thinks that becoming a vampire is somehow a requirement for min/maxing. So he is basically touting the same view point I just described as destroying this genre.

Where did this weird idea that everyone has to be 100% balanced with everyone else even come from? It's a strange concept that is literally the opposite of what historically made RPGs interesting - which was the ability to create different builds having different strengths and weaknesses based on the preferences of the player.

Maybe we should just do away with vampires, werewolves and different classes all together since it seems even the slightest of differences between them constitute an unacceptable imbalance that forces players to choose them so they can compare exactly even on some silly number chart in min/max world.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

Hello ZOS,
A large section of the player base feels that they are forced to take the vampire skill line because it gives their character much more power than without. These players really do not want to be vampires but they feel forced into taking the skill line and this is not right. Of all skill lines, vampire and werewolf should be mostly for "flavor." No one should feel forced to take these skills to be viable in PvE or PvP.

Here are some examples of players feelings about the vampire skill line:

we have to wear vampire for the insane bonuses you get from it. It's not even a choice.

ZOS attached insanely powerful endgame buffs to being a vampire.

Everyone and their mother is a vampire because of the benefits it provides.

you MUST have [vampire] if you wanna do vet hm trials as DD,

Given how players feel forced to take this skill line, I think the game designers should really take a look at the skills and make some changes so that players are not forced into the skill line and instead take the skills because they want to be vampires. Here are some suggestions:
Mist form: change the damage reduction to the Major Protection buff, change elusive mist benefit to minor expedition instead of major. Fix it so that becoming mist form purges all beneficial effects (like shields)

Supernatural recovery: reduce the level 2 bonus to 5% from 10%.

Undeath: change so the maximum damage reduction is 8% (on par with minor protection)

These simple changes would go a long way to giving players the freedom to choose vampire or not, instead of being forced into taking a skill line they do not want.
@ZOS_GinaBruno
Thanks for reading

Insane bonuses?

Please. You get 10% more regen. Whoodeedoo. If losing 10% regen makes someone's character unviable in PvE then there is something seriously wrong with their character and I suggest a complete overhaul.

I'm a vampire and I still have to heavy attack to keep my resources up just like most other people do. So this idea that 10% more regen is some kind of insane bonus that makes being a vampire necessary for PvE content is so ridiculous I can't even keep a straight face while reading it.

And let's not forget you take 25% more damage form fire attacks. There is always that little factor your OP of course fails to point out.

in respect to their skills...frankly the vampire skills suck. Especially in PvE. I have tried hard to find a use for them but can't. They are horrible. Drain essence is so weak it feels more like you are kissing the enemy instead of sucking their blood. And mist form - an expensive temporary buff that stops all regen and healing and you think it should be nerfed further? It's barely useful in PvP as it is - being only good for escaping across short distances and into safely. If they nerfed it any further it's likely no one would ever use it (I know I sure wouldn't). And while the ultimate is decent - it's certainly nothing amazing and I only ever really used it for the looks.

The faster sneak speed is nice. That I will give you. But that is mostly a convenience and certainly nothing game breaking and there are other ways to attain it. And as far as undeath goes - I can barely notice its effect as it is. So reducing it from 33% to 8% would effectively make that a waste of 2 skill points.

I would suggest you play as a vampire first before concluding they are so over-powered all players must be one to be viable or competitive. Because that is hardly the case. So if you don't want to be a vampire then simply don't be one. Your character will be just fine as a result.

My build has 812 magicka regen without vampirism, 893 with.

That means I get back 24,360 magicka every minute without vampirism.

With vampirism, I get back 26,790.

That's a difference of 2,400 magicka every minute (or around one extra ability cas). The difference only gets bigger the higher your base regen is. That's substabial in the post-Morrowind era where resource recovery is heavily nerfed. It means having to do fewer heavy attacks in the course of a long boss fight, which will increae your DPS.

Oh wow - so you get back a whopping 2k magicka every minute as a vampire. An amount that barely covers the cost of a single cheap spell cast on this game. Clearly that is such a vast advantage everyone must become a vampire and opt to take 25% more fire damage.

You just made my point for me. Thank you.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

Hello ZOS,
A large section of the player base feels that they are forced to take the vampire skill line because it gives their character much more power than without. These players really do not want to be vampires but they feel forced into taking the skill line and this is not right. Of all skill lines, vampire and werewolf should be mostly for "flavor." No one should feel forced to take these skills to be viable in PvE or PvP.

Here are some examples of players feelings about the vampire skill line:

we have to wear vampire for the insane bonuses you get from it. It's not even a choice.

ZOS attached insanely powerful endgame buffs to being a vampire.

Everyone and their mother is a vampire because of the benefits it provides.

you MUST have [vampire] if you wanna do vet hm trials as DD,

Given how players feel forced to take this skill line, I think the game designers should really take a look at the skills and make some changes so that players are not forced into the skill line and instead take the skills because they want to be vampires. Here are some suggestions:
Mist form: change the damage reduction to the Major Protection buff, change elusive mist benefit to minor expedition instead of major. Fix it so that becoming mist form purges all beneficial effects (like shields)

Supernatural recovery: reduce the level 2 bonus to 5% from 10%.

Undeath: change so the maximum damage reduction is 8% (on par with minor protection)

These simple changes would go a long way to giving players the freedom to choose vampire or not, instead of being forced into taking a skill line they do not want.
@ZOS_GinaBruno
Thanks for reading

Insane bonuses?

Please. You get 10% more regen. Whoodeedoo. If losing 10% regen makes someone's character unviable in PvE then there is something seriously wrong with their character and I suggest a complete overhaul.

I'm a vampire and I still have to heavy attack to keep my resources up just like most other people do. So this idea that 10% more regen is some kind of insane bonus that makes being a vampire necessary for PvE content is so ridiculous I can't even keep a straight face while reading it.

And let's not forget you take 25% more damage form fire attacks. There is always that little factor your OP of course fails to point out.

in respect to their skills...frankly the vampire skills suck. Especially in PvE. I have tried hard to find a use for them but can't. They are horrible. Drain essence is so weak it feels more like you are kissing the enemy instead of sucking their blood. And mist form - an expensive temporary buff that stops all regen and healing and you think it should be nerfed further? It's barely useful in PvP as it is - being only good for escaping across short distances and into safely. If they nerfed it any further it's likely no one would ever use it (I know I sure wouldn't). And while the ultimate is decent - it's certainly nothing amazing and I only ever really used it for the looks.

The faster sneak speed is nice. That I will give you. But that is mostly a convenience and certainly nothing game breaking and there are other ways to attain it. And as far as undeath goes - I can barely notice its effect as it is. So reducing it from 33% to 8% would effectively make that a waste of 2 skill points.

I would suggest you play as a vampire first before concluding they are so over-powered all players must be one to be viable or competitive. Because that is hardly the case. So if you don't want to be a vampire then simply don't be one. Your character will be just fine as a result.

My build has 812 magicka regen without vampirism, 893 with.

That means I get back 24,360 magicka every minute without vampirism.

With vampirism, I get back 26,790.

That's a difference of 2,400 magicka every minute (or around one extra ability cas). The difference only gets bigger the higher your base regen is. That's substabial in the post-Morrowind era where resource recovery is heavily nerfed. It means having to do fewer heavy attacks in the course of a long boss fight, which will increae your DPS.

Oh wow - so you get back a whopping 2k magicka every minute as a vampire. An amount that barely covers the cost of a single cheap spell cast on this game. Clearly that is such a vast advantage everyone must become a vampire and opt to take 25% more fire damage.

You just made my point for me. Thank you.

You need vampirism to achieve the highest possible DPS. That's an indisputable fact.

You don't need to achieve the highest possible DPS to play this game. So what is your point? So what.

This forces no one to become a vampire. Not all of us live in min/max world (in fact I would assert that most of us do not).

gethemshauna wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

AsheronRealaidain wrote: »

Hey look more calls to nerf something that is working perfectly fine as is

Anything that is considered "must have" to the extent people whine constantly about having to look ugly to use it is not, by and definition, "working fine as is".

All The Best

Oh, again the "all the best" dude, how I was missing you (obviously not)

Somewhere in the forums one of ZOS members said that "vampire look toggle on/off" request was noted, so maybe we should be just a little bit more patient, everyone knows ZOS doesn't like to hurry with their promises.

Except this is something the player base has been begging for since launch. Paul Sage said in a live stream that "maybe something with costumes" could be done when I asked him about a toggle to get rid of the vamp appearance entirely. PAUL SAGE. Ya wanna know how many YEARS ago that was now??? It's well past time for Zos to move on this. Really.

As to the skill line, fine, nerf away... but only IF you actually fill out the skill bar entirely with vampire specific skills so that those who want to can actually play their character fully AS a vampire if they want to. Give player vampires the same gap closer all the NPC vampires have in the game for starters. Give vampires a fear. For starters. Take care of the appearance issue. THEN we can talk about screwing over vampires in the way the OP suggests.

BrightOblivion wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

bloodthirstyvampire wrote: »

Its almost like your saying people should be vampires just because with no benefits, it Would make the whole concept of vampires in eso non existent and pointless or nearly pointless

This is the impression I get too.

But I think the real problem here is you have a few vocal min/maxers who don't want to become vampires because they don't like the way they look. So instead of all these proposed and undeserved nerfs that would ruin the skill line and render it pointless what they should really be asking for here is just for some option to turn off the vampire skin. That would probably settle this problem for them entirely.

Then they could top as high as possible on their precious DPS charts without ruining the fun of others in the process.

They/we-ish have been. Repeatedly. Then this guy came along and made this thread calling for nerfs and crap they/we-ish (minus MLG, I suppose) didn't ask for and saying he was speaking for them/us-ish.

He's not, though.

Well that's fair enough.

I can support an option that allows players to turn off the vampire skin if they don't like it. That seems reasonable to me. A lot more reasonable then all these proposed nerfs that would essentially make the skill line useless and a waste of skill points.

BrightOblivion wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

bloodthirstyvampire wrote: »

Its almost like your saying people should be vampires just because with no benefits, it Would make the whole concept of vampires in eso non existent and pointless or nearly pointless

This is the impression I get too.

But I think the real problem here is you have a few vocal min/maxers who don't want to become vampires because they don't like the way they look. So instead of all these proposed and undeserved nerfs that would ruin the skill line and render it pointless what they should really be asking for here is just for some option to turn off the vampire skin. That would probably settle this problem for them entirely.

Then they could top as high as possible on their precious DPS charts without ruining the fun of others in the process.

They/we-ish have been. Repeatedly. Including in the thread linked in the original post. Then this guy came along and made this thread calling for nerfs and crap they/we-ish (minus MLG, I suppose) didn't ask for and saying he was speaking for them/us-ish and "helping."

He's not, though.

This thread is only intended to help those such as yourself who dislike the appearance of vampirism. You dislike the appearance yet you still use it. Why?

Tragically, a vampire is a vampire and a vampire does indeed look like a vampire.

MornaBaine wrote: »

gethemshauna wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

AsheronRealaidain wrote: »

Hey look more calls to nerf something that is working perfectly fine as is

Anything that is considered "must have" to the extent people whine constantly about having to look ugly to use it is not, by and definition, "working fine as is".

All The Best

Oh, again the "all the best" dude, how I was missing you (obviously not)

Somewhere in the forums one of ZOS members said that "vampire look toggle on/off" request was noted, so maybe we should be just a little bit more patient, everyone knows ZOS doesn't like to hurry with their promises.

Except this is something the player base has been begging for since launch. Paul Sage said in a live stream that "maybe something with costumes" could be done when I asked him about a toggle to get rid of the vamp appearance entirely. PAUL SAGE. Ya wanna know how many YEARS ago that was now??? It's well past time for Zos to move on this. Really.

As to the skill line, fine, nerf away... but only IF you actually fill out the skill bar entirely with vampire specific skills so that those who want to can actually play their character fully AS a vampire if they want to. Give player vampires the same gap closer all the NPC vampires have in the game for starters. Give vampires a fear. For starters. Take care of the appearance issue. THEN we can talk about screwing over vampires in the way the OP suggests.

Spot on.

Werewolves should get their passives without having to use any werewolf skills as well.

10k extra armor, 20% boost in stam, 18% extra weapon damage, double resource return on heavy attacks and random feeding should definitely be a thing.

#parity

usmcjdking wrote: »

Werewolves should get their passives without having to use any werewolf skills as well.

10k extra armor, 20% boost in stam, 18% extra weapon damage, double resource return on heavy attacks and random feeding should definitely be a thing.

#parity

That is an excellent idea, however it seems as though the vampires among us would prefer that their skill line becomes something like werewolf now, but they do not have ugly vampire skin all the time (maybe only when they use the new vampire form ultimate, which is required to unlock all their vampire skills and passives).

Thanks everyone! I'm glad we could reach this unanimous decision regarding the direction forward for vampires.

And thanks ZOS for moving forward with the implementation post haste. Is there a PO I can reach out to directly to make sure the user requirements are updated and stories are added to the next sprint?