MurderMostFoul wrote: »

BroanBeast1215 wrote: »

Liam12548 wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Liam12548 wrote: »

If you want Cp in bgs and your reasoning is that you deserve an advantage because you GRINDED longer than lower Cp players, you're a bad player who needs a crutch to be successful in pvp. By no means should relentlessly killing mobs or running skyreach in PVE ZONES give you a distinct statistical advantage over lower Cp players in PVP. In pve, where everything is scaled around the cp cap diffixulty wise, the cp argument exists. Realistically the closest thing to balance we have is no Cp pvp because everyone has access to the same tools, and cannot erase their weaknesses by simply dumping Cp into whatever node mitigates the damage they struggle against.

This is nonsense. You seem to have forgotten you're playing an MMO, not an FPS like Counter-Strike. This is the type of game that requires players to LEVEL UP in order to play endgame content optimally. PvP is endgame content, whether or not you choose to level up your toon properly.... that's YOUR PROBLEM. All this whining I see in this thread about "crutches" is just spitting in the face of dedicated players who have stuck with this game since the beginning.

I've been with this game since the beginning. I have well over 800 Cp, which is far lower than some I know, but I haven't been under the cap in over a year. Pvp is not, and should not be referred to as, "endgame content". It should be 100% equal and fair to all players at or above the gear cap, and no Cp provides this for us. What Cp pvp gives us is an environment where the high Cp players get a massive statistical advantage over lower Cp players, and builds that have no weaknesses because at this point we have 690 CP TO SPEND, AND CAN LITERALLY PUT POINTS IN EVERYTHING. For pvp, 160cp should be referred to as the "endgame" point at which players choose to enter.

Cp is a crutch. You can defend it all you'd like, but the real experienced pvpers who have played both understand what Cp does, the nature of balance in eso, and why Cp pvp will never reach a "balanced" state. Saying that Cp is fine is a spit in the face to anyone who actually has an in depth understanding of pvp.

because life is fair, right?

Imagine if we took your way of thinking and applied it to real life
i.e: everything must be fair for everyone no matter how hard or long the other person worked for what they had...

I do believe that would be socialism

LOL.

If it isn't the old "I apply your video game logic to real life to prove you wrong" argument. Spoiler alert: it never wins.

I wasn't trying to win anything, just pointing out the line of thinking applied to real life concepts, not sure why everyone is all about this insta gratification ish nowadays...

Remember Everquest?

wheem_ESO wrote: »

So here's a question for all the people making, "But I should have a big advantage since I've been playing longer!" type posts: How many hours should a new player have to invest before they're "allowed" to have stats (as opposed to experience/knowledge) comparable to yours? Does ZOS have it exactly right with their current implementation of the CP system, or should we go back to an Everquest style grind? After all, several people oh-so-helpfully pointed out that the Elder Scrolls Online is an MMO, so maybe it should pay more homage to the genre's roots?

I honestly can't understand this mindset at all...insisting that other players have less health, magicka, stamina, and various other offensive/defensive modifiers until they complete a soul-sucking PvE grind. How dare someone want to be on a statistically even playing field while they get familiar with how PvP works in the game...I mean, the nerve of some people!

Some of these...these...NEWBIES (gag!) actually think that they should be allowed into our august presence to compete against us in an online PC/console game?!?! What absolute gall! They should be utterly non-competitive on multiple different fronts (not just lack of experience with the game!), and thank us all for the gracious opportunity to be bleary eyed and bored to tears while they grind away on unchallenging NPCs for some arbitrary amount of time.

#Nose-So-High-In-The-Air-That-I-May-Drown-If-It-Rains

2 months, you should grind, farm, play, etc for 2 months at least before attempting to be proficient at PvP.

Sure you can try earlier, but don't expect to do well

Edit: I'm still reserving my opinion on CP in BGs (haven't tried just yet) just voicing my opinion on the "end game PvP or not" part.

wheem_ESO wrote: »

So here's a question for all the people making, "But I should have a big advantage since I've been playing longer!" type posts: How many hours should a new player have to invest before they're "allowed" to have stats (as opposed to experience/knowledge) comparable to yours? Does ZOS have it exactly right with their current implementation of the CP system, or should we go back to an Everquest style grind? After all, several people oh-so-helpfully pointed out that the Elder Scrolls Online is an MMO, so maybe it should pay more homage to the genre's roots?

I honestly can't understand this mindset at all...insisting that other players have less health, magicka, stamina, and various other offensive/defensive modifiers until they complete a soul-sucking PvE grind. How dare someone want to be on a statistically even playing field while they get familiar with how PvP works in the game...I mean, the nerve of some people!

Some of these...these...NEWBIES (gag!) actually think that they should be allowed into our august presence to compete against us in an online PC/console game?!?! What absolute gall! They should be utterly non-competitive on multiple different fronts (not just lack of experience with the game!), and thank us all for the gracious opportunity to be bleary eyed and bored to tears while they grind away on unchallenging NPCs for some arbitrary amount of time.

#Nose-So-High-In-The-Air-That-I-May-Drown-If-It-Rains

I've done very little PvE other than grinding up to lvl 50 shortly after release
the pve content I have done since hitting 50 has been for gear or lvling different skill lines
you don't have to be max cp to pvp and lvl up at the same time, but be prepared to suck.

It was pretty dumb of ZOS to not offer the choice of either CP or non-CP Battlegrounds. I have no problems with CP BGs except for the perma-blocking tanks camping objectives in them.

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

So here's a question for all the people making, "But I should have a big advantage since I've been playing longer!" type posts: How many hours should a new player have to invest before they're "allowed" to have stats (as opposed to experience/knowledge) comparable to yours? Does ZOS have it exactly right with their current implementation of the CP system, or should we go back to an Everquest style grind? After all, several people oh-so-helpfully pointed out that the Elder Scrolls Online is an MMO, so maybe it should pay more homage to the genre's roots?

I honestly can't understand this mindset at all...insisting that other players have less health, magicka, stamina, and various other offensive/defensive modifiers until they complete a soul-sucking PvE grind. How dare someone want to be on a statistically even playing field while they get familiar with how PvP works in the game...I mean, the nerve of some people!

Some of these...these...NEWBIES (gag!) actually think that they should be allowed into our august presence to compete against us in an online PC/console game?!?! What absolute gall! They should be utterly non-competitive on multiple different fronts (not just lack of experience with the game!), and thank us all for the gracious opportunity to be bleary eyed and bored to tears while they grind away on unchallenging NPCs for some arbitrary amount of time.

#Nose-So-High-In-The-Air-That-I-May-Drown-If-It-Rains

2 months, you should grind, farm, play, etc for 2 months at least before attempting to be proficient at PvP.

Sure you can try earlier, but don't expect to do well

Edit: I'm still reserving my opinion on CP in BGs (haven't tried just yet) just voicing my opinion on the "end game PvP or not" part.

As @ToRelax pointed out, my post wasn't about the level of experience possessed by the player behind the keyboard (or controller). Instead, I explicitly referred to character stats; the amount of health/magicka/stamina one receives from simply putting CP into their respective trees, along with all of the various offensive and defensive modifiers.

So, for the sake of clarity, is it your opinion that new players should be at a disadvantage based on their character statistics until they grind for 2 months? Approximately how many hours a day are we talking? After all, available play times vary quite substantially...grinding for 4 hours per day over a 2 month period adds up to ~240 hours worth of grinding (which is 10 days /played time). But, if you're only able to grind for an hour a day, it works out to being 8 months before one can be on an even playing field (as far as the characters themselves are concerned, that is). Either way, that seems like a whole bunch of boring and otherwise unproductive hours to sit through.

1-2 hours a day, occasionally more or less on weekends.

You're specifically talking about CP now. While CP is apart of this game's end game, I wasn't referring to CP alone.

Even in no CP, PvP is still end game. I've spent like a year in no CP (sold it was more popular harumpf) and gear, and undaunted and monster sets all still require end game content to be done - and at least CP 160.

I enjoy no CP PvP and CP PvP but it's both definitely end game to be competitive

Eldar_Ftw wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

sigirri wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Liam12548 wrote: »

If you want Cp in bgs and your reasoning is that you deserve an advantage because you GRINDED longer than lower Cp players, you're a bad player who needs a crutch to be successful in pvp. By no means should relentlessly killing mobs or running skyreach in PVE ZONES give you a distinct statistical advantage over lower Cp players in PVP. In pve, where everything is scaled around the cp cap diffixulty wise, the cp argument exists. Realistically the closest thing to balance we have is no Cp pvp because everyone has access to the same tools, and cannot erase their weaknesses by simply dumping Cp into whatever node mitigates the damage they struggle against.

This is nonsense. You seem to have forgotten you're playing an MMO, not an FPS like Counter-Strike. This is the type of game that requires players to LEVEL UP in order to play endgame content optimally. PvP is endgame content, whether or not you choose to level up your toon properly.... that's YOUR PROBLEM. All this whining I see in this thread about "crutches" is just spitting in the face of dedicated players who have stuck with this game since the beginning.

PvP is not end game content.

It most certainly is, and is in every (wtf ever you want to call it) MMO rpg thing.

Any game I've played that isn't a FPS had PvP as end game content where if you don't show up in the right gear you get pwned.

I'm not defending or attacking CP, I'm just stating, PvP most certainly is end game content

First off PvP, is not end game content unless it's rated. Look at every other MMO out on the market now, you can start pvping before you hit lvl cap. Pvp is a basic function or mode or w/e you want to call it, it's like doing pve or dungeons, are those end game? no. Trials and Vets/HMvets are end game, or let's use WoW as an example Mythic, Hardcore, Mythic 10+ are "end game". Hell we can use WoW's pvp system as an example, it's version of PvP "end game" is getting Gladiator or 2.6k rating.

I've played over 10 MMO's in my lifetime and NONE of them required you to do some absurd grind just to PvP in a none ranked BG. Doing BG's pre CP 660 is a nightmare and even worse when you're below 350 cp, you just become fodder, hell I'm 202 cp wearing heavy armor and I get hit for 5k-12k...I literally can be killed in less than 5 hits if I don't time my blocks.

I can log into any MMO right now GW2, Wildstar, Swtor, WoW, FF14 ARR, WAR (private server) or any other one that has a BG system and I can face people I might have a chance beating cause sure they might have better gear which is all fine and dandy but when you add in extra dmg/resource management/def like CP, you're adding a whole another ballgame.

This CP system is literally like having the NE Patriots (high cp players) face a middle school football team (low cp players).

I've played all sorts of MMO's as well and it's been a mixed bag to be honest.
Ones that required grind to pvp (levels and gear) that I played for an extended period of time:

Lineage 2, Aion, Tera, Archeage

L2 was both a huge level and gear grind; Aion was less of level grind (although still immense) and about the same gear grind, Tera and Archeage was the least level grind but an equal amount of gear grind.

You needed literally months before you could be competitive in PVP whatsoever.

This was fine due to the fact that the grind was fun, since when you got a better weapons and armor or were lucky to get a really high enchanted weapon, not only were you proud of it but it made a significant impact on your PVP experience.

MMO's I played without any grind to PVP: FF XIV, GW2, Blade n Soul

All great in their own right but truth is I stopped playing them after a while cause I ran out of things to do faster than I did on the other ones that had a grind. While it was fun to PVP in them, I kept feeling the need to upgrade my gear to give me something to strive for. This is totally personal preference.

Now, Elder Scrolls Online.. The issue is the grind is ultimately really boring. You can get purple cp160 super easy and to gold it out it doesn't feel that special. But It's just not the same feeling when you're wielding a +15 mythical weapon in Aion, for those who played it.

The CP grind is really really tiring and it doesn't add anything to your happiness within the game. It just feels like a chore.