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Does ZOS Actually Know What Class Balance Is?
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Ch4mpTW✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ZoS never known balance until they finally made a change that I and others advocated for and that was that armor abilities i.e. shuffle,immovable, and w/e the magicka one is; Should require the use of 3 to 5 pieces of the corresponding armor to utilize.
This is the first time I can say they did good with balancing but then they had to mess with DK again and make it even worse all while not giving back my Flames of Oblivion (AoE) that should have never went to sorcerers in the first place. I felt like playing this game again but maybe I'll hop on but I do not think I'll be hooked again till they bring back the DK that inspired me to pick this game up in the first place.
Little addition here: I do think the changes to wings were pretty nice of them but maybe its time they remove the shield ultimate and use something unique instead of stealing it from the DKs especially when it was ours to begin with and allowed us to fight the way the class was designed i.e. "Standing your ground" and "Up close and personal".
Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding! We have a winner! Someone who actually plays/played DK thoroughly, and actually understands the core of the class. So far most of the folks who say that DK’s (MagDK in particular) are fine have little to no experience actually using the class. While most of those who do use it are calling out the bs for what it is. Funny how that works, yes?0 -
Nogawd✭✭✭✭✭Things can have perfect balance, but people entitled whiners will always complain because they feel they never makes mistakes or should die. Meta users will seek any percentage advantage they can, but complain when other people do it.
These attitudes get very old in these forums.1 -
Apache_Kid✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »
Yeah, if you're trying to use a lot of stealth breaking abilities while in cloak, or you're trying to dodge roll.
Once you know what you're doing, cloak is really versatile, but I get where a player who's never really learned how to use it would miss that.
LOL such a *** response. There are SO many direct counters to cloak it's absurd. Claiming otherwise is ignorant of the types of skills and pots that are in the game. Cloak is only useful when you are playing against pugs that don't realize how easy it is you pull people out of it. You're just trolling now.
Hey, I'll grant you, it's not easy. This is a L2P issue, but that doesn't reflect on you. I think I've said earlier in this thread, it took over a year to get to a place where I could actually make the cloak work more often than not. (Ignoring the part where it's actually been broken, several times, during the game's life.)
Here's the quick takeaway: By itself, Cloak is not an escape. It will let you reposition, but it's not supposed to be a one click escape. Just from the way it's designed. It's undergone some reworks over the years, but the primary goal is to boost survivability and allow the NB to fire off sneak attacks mid combat (even if that doesn't really work). That said, with enough practice, you can use it as an escape.
Once you get a handle on what it can, and can't, do, the cloak becomes a very versatile tool. However, if you're trying to dodge roll or sprint in cloak... yeah, that's not going to end well.
I'm not trying to dodge roll or sprint. It's that once I use it *boom* aoe right where I was it immov pot with detect and I'm out of it. Where did I state above that I was pulling myself out of cloak? Enemies are pulling me out. I think I'm a seasoned enough player to know that RUNNING or ROLLING will pull me out. You're just being rude at this point.
The sprint and dodge roll thing wasn't you.kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »Cloak is useless for getting away you are in the same place you don’t move with Cloak, can’t sprint or roll.
Though you did specifically agree with them.
Also, here's a stray thought, when you cloak, don't go where they expect. I know, this gets into mind games a bit, but between cloak and concealed weapon, if they know where you are, you've only yourself to blame when you get AoEed.
.........
I cloak and there is sometimes an instant AOE right where I was just standing. Because cloak doesn't grant me the ability to teleport I am only a couple meters in any direction by the time the AOE goes off. If they cast it in the exact spot they just saw me in it DOES NOT matter where I move. The fact that stamNb only defense other than dodge roll is countered by ANY aoe, pots, and a mages guild skill is the issue. Cloak is great in a 1 on 1 situation. If you are in a 1v2 or 2v2 or 2v3 or 3v3 or anything of the sort it is a VERY good chance that some enemy is going to pull you out of it simply because they run immovables or are casting AOE abilites. Everything you are saying about cloak pertains way more to a 1v1 situation which is just about the least common type of encounter I have in Cyrodiil.2 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Apache_Kid wrote: »Everything you are saying about cloak pertains way more to a 1v1 situation which is just about the least common type of encounter I have in Cyrodiil.
Yeah, this is the problem, except, you've got it backwards. The entire point behind cloak is that you can engineer 1v1 situations, even against a group. If you're going in, picking a fight with three or four guys, you're going to die. It helps you manage threats, and exploit openings that other classes can't. If you try to play a Nightblade in PvP like a DK, you're going to die horrifically. If you want to play a DK like a NB, it's not going to work, because you can't get into position.0 -
Koensol✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Uhm, yea. Root has a really short immunity timer and is NOT affected by immovable pots. And DKs will have a very high uptime on 30% snare from warmth passive. They simply are the best class at draining stamina from people, by alternating stuns with roots and forcing people to dodge, cc break or spam shuffle. No class does it quite like DK.Posts a video of himself losing to a well played stamnb. Calls stamnb OP. How insightful.
By the way, your opponent didn't even play the stereotypical NB. He was using a SnB dueling build, which is hardly representative of the NBs you see in Cyrodiil. If you have any clue how to play MagDK, you would feel ashamed that you say you often lose against stamnb. DKs have all the tools to make a stamnbs life miserable. Reveal from volatile armor, perma root, perma snare, undodgable stun, high burst undodgable ult. The stamina drain is real.
Perma root and perma-snare...? Reveal from Volatile? High Burst ultimate?
First of all, no competent player is going to let you constantly CC them if they know half of what they are doing. That in and of itself gets ruled out. Ever heard of a immovable pot?
Doesn't matter if it is easy or not. The tools are there. Heck, you also have engulfing flames to do the job if you are anywhere decent at aiming.Second of all, reveal from Volatile? Do you even play a DK? Do you know the range said spray has for that to even remotely be used as an argument for it to be combating stealth/cloak? Out of all of the years I’ve been playing a DK (magicka or stamina), I can count maybe on 1 hand the amount of times I’ve actually managed to pull something out of stealth with Volatile Armor. Stop trolling.
It is a high burst ultimate. Don't know what else you would call it. The fact that yours hits like a wet noodle or get blocked because you don't set them up is entirely on you. A good leap combo regularly destroys medium armor wearers.And lastly, a high Burst ultimate? Are you deadass going to sit there with a straight face and call Leap a high-burst ultimate? Especially when compared to Incap? Are you serious?
I don't know about you, but if you purely look at class passives and abilities, a DK has a lot of tools that do indeed help them counter a NBs toolkit. I'm not saying they are a hard counter or anything stupid like that, I'm telling you that their toolkit offers them more than enough to deal with stamina nightblades. More than most other classes, except maybe a shieldstacking petsorc camping in mines.Dude, I don’t know if you’re: Drunk, high, sleepy, or just plain old trolling. But, there is absolutely no possible way that you can be serious in saying that MagDK’s are a check/counter to StamBlades. Hell no. And I play a StamBlade from time to time (although I main a MagDK in PvP primarily). I destroy MagDK’s. Granted they take a bit longer than a Sorc or opposing Nightblade. But, the point still remains. I can crush them with ease. Even more so if I’m cheesing with poisons. If you’re struggling against MagDK’s as a StamBlade, then you really need to sit down and evaluate your build and overall knowledge on StamBlades. And that’s not a joke either.
Edited by Koensol on November 7, 2017 4:48PM7 -
Vanthras79✭✭✭✭✭What does the great lord Fengrush have to say about balances changes?Norion Germain - Telvanni Wizard, Covenant Battle Mage, Mage's Guild Magister, Resident of Daggerfall Overlook, Lord of Tel Galen, Psijic Monk, Antiquarian, Breton Scholar, and Traveler.0 -
Apache_Kid✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »Everything you are saying about cloak pertains way more to a 1v1 situation which is just about the least common type of encounter I have in Cyrodiil.
Yeah, this is the problem, except, you've got it backwards. The entire point behind cloak is that you can engineer 1v1 situations, even against a group. If you're going in, picking a fight with three or four guys, you're going to die. It helps you manage threats, and exploit openings that other classes can't. If you try to play a Nightblade in PvP like a DK, you're going to die horrifically. If you want to play a DK like a NB, it's not going to work, because you can't get into position.
We are talking about the specific usefulness of cloak. Engineering 1v1 situations only works when NONE of the 3 hard counters to cloak I mentioned are present. Yes sometimes you can get lucky by facing a group with little to no AOE and with no one running immove/detect pots, but in my experience, while in combat, 50-60% of the time your cloak is pulled off almost instantly after you cast it. Also, one thing we haven't even mentioned, Is that cost of it only allows you 3-4 casts per bar. With no magicka regen those 3-4 uses take a long time to recharge. Let's say you get pulled out instantly 2 of those 4 times, thats only 5.8 seconds of cloak only enough for a vigor and half's time for you to recover that health you lost or put yourself in a better position to attack your threats. Also not even mentioned yet, Is that the stamNb's only defense against spammable Dot moved like haunting curse is to slot an extremely high cost purge skill. Do that and you completely lose all ability to cloak due to low magicka. You must have great latency and FPS in Cyrodiil or run into mainly PvE people trying to get their vigor/caltrops if you are using cloak as effectively as you are describing it.Edited by Apache_Kid on November 7, 2017 4:58PM0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I don't know about you, but if you purely look at class passives and abilities, a DK has a lot of tools that do indeed help them counter a NBs toolkit.
I've seen those, just never really managed to pull them off. To be fair, I have spent way less time on a DK in Cryodiil, so it may be a L2P issue for me.0 -
Vizier✭✭✭✭✭
✭
And down here... Nightblades... They still are pretty much the same, except for them doing way more damage than they did back then. And their cloak took a slight tickle. Hardly a nerf really. But, it is what it is. We don’t talk too much about how NB’s were nerfed back in these days, and would you like to know why..? They were always the hardest hitting class outside of Sorcs.
Hard damage nerfs to bows, crit from stealth, crit vs shields, impen stack. Bah. While the class itself wasn't "nerfed" per se, the popular ranged glasscannon playstyle for the class was made virtually useless.
More damage than back then? Ummm. No. Not even close. I think it's you that doesn't get it. It may very well be some play styles of the NB do well still, but others have been nerfed into Oblivion. The Bowblade, for instance, I want to play does less than half the damage it used to do vs players. And that's with far more weapon damage, penetration and roughly the same crit of 50ish %. Bow builds have to pretty much kill steal to land killing blows or get someone in light armor with no shields under 600 CP, 20K health....and on their horse. Ranged Stamblades have seen some of the harshest changes since the golden age before 1.6 / 1.7 era. (Not saying that era NB didn't need some toning down...just saying...)
At least ZoS seems to have managed to get cloak working right for NB's. We'll see how things shape up with the changes to armor abilities and if that actually gets some class builds out of Hvy Impen that have no business running 5 Hvy.3 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Apache_Kid wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »Everything you are saying about cloak pertains way more to a 1v1 situation which is just about the least common type of encounter I have in Cyrodiil.
Yeah, this is the problem, except, you've got it backwards. The entire point behind cloak is that you can engineer 1v1 situations, even against a group. If you're going in, picking a fight with three or four guys, you're going to die. It helps you manage threats, and exploit openings that other classes can't. If you try to play a Nightblade in PvP like a DK, you're going to die horrifically. If you want to play a DK like a NB, it's not going to work, because you can't get into position.
We are talking about the specific usefulness of cloak. Engineering 1v1 situations only works when NONE of the 3 hard counters to cloak I mentioned are present. Yes sometimes you can get lucky by facing a group with little to no AOE and with no one running immove/detect pots, but in my experience, while in combat, 50-60% of the time your cloak is pulled off almost instantly after you cast it. Also, one thing we haven't even mentioned, Is that cost of it only allows you 3-4 casts per bar. With no magicka regen those 3-4 uses take a long time to recharge. Let's say you get pulled out instantly 2 of those 4 times, thats only 5.8 seconds of cloak only enough for a vigor and half's time for you to recover that health you lost or put yourself in a better position to attack your threats. Also not even mentioned yet, Is that the stamNb's only defense against spammable Dot moved like haunting curse is to slot an extremely high cost purge skill. Do that and you completely lose all ability to cloak due to low magicka. You must have great latency and FPS in Cyrodiil or run into mainly PvE people trying to get their vigor/caltrops if you are using cloak as effectively as you are describing it.
No, you're still looking at this as, "I see players, I must strike now and kill them all." That is the wrong mindset for a nightblade. Nightblades are opportunistic predators who pick off vulnerable foes. You're not a stand up fighter.
You want to know how to deal with PvE players invading Cyrodiil? Wait until they're already engaged with something, and distracted, then start picking them off. Don't just pick a fight, and wade in. That will get you killed.
As a nightblade you control when the fight starts. Your ability to control when it ends is a lot more limited.
And, yes, cloak can be instrumental for recovering from a miscalculation, but most of the time, as a nightblade, if you screw up, you die.0 -
WillhelmBlack✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Was expecting to read something about Stam Warden!
DK's rek NB's so all good in tha hood. They also nerfed Fear, they didn't just buff the other morph.
PC EU1 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭So I was browsing through the base/main CWC patch notes that are live currently on PC, as the new DLC goes live on consoles tomorrow... And umm... Guys... Either I misread a lot of things, or perhaps ZOS is a tad bit more clueless than we’d all like to believe.
Let’s begin with a class balance change comparison between DK’s and NB’s...
Dragonknights:
- Nerfed Fossilize to make Stonefist appear more appealing.
- Made Shifting Standard cost more ultimate, and made it so that you no longer generate ultimate while it is active. Mind you this was done on a class that sustains through the use of ultimates. Lol. And you reduced the uptime of it by roughly 8 to 10 seconds.
- You made Cauterize be able to self-heal (lmao), and fire off said fire balls of healing faster.
Nightblades:
- Made a HUGE buffs to both Executioner and Grim Focus. Because yeah, NB’s were definitely having trouble killing things and sustaining (/sarcasm).
- You’ve made Manifestation of Terror even more appealing.
- You’ve gone ahead and buffed Soul Siphon, because why again...? It was bad, because why?
ZOS... No. not okay. As is Nightblades are the most used class. Whether it be magicka or stamina oriented. That’s besides the point. The point is, anyone who plays ESO knows that there are far more Nightblades running about in PvE (and especially PvP) than any other class. Aaaaand you decided to throw them another bone. Where as you’ve made a class that was struggling in its usage take yet another hit to the chin (DK’s). Especially the magicka variant of DK’s. Whenever I’m out and about, whether I’m doing: Trials, dungeons, or PvP, I always get asked why it is I’m even bothering with MagDK’s. And this holds especially true now. Why bother? Why not just use 1 of my Nightblades, or just stick with my Sorc full-time? I mean, there truly is no incentive to use a MagDK outside of a trial where having a chainer would be useful *cough MoL cough*. So yeah. Why bother?
And before someone says, “Champ, you are just whining. You didn’t even list what ZOS could do to make things better.” It’s pretty much useless at this point. ZOS has received more suggestions on helping out DK’s (specifically MagDK’s) than I could count. Tons of threads about this. Yet said suggestions get ignored like 1-800 numbers that show-up on the caller ID. They don’t answer those callings.
And PS:
Can you PLEASE buff cold/frost damage, and or boost MagDen (magicka Warden) damage? Please? PLEASE!?
All that said about DKs and NBs ...
Yet when we do raid parses, stamDKs are easily hitting 60k+ with that so-easy-a-monkey-could-do-it heavy attack rotation, while stamblades get sweaty as hell, get 2 bow procs every cast of Relentless, execute flawlessly, and are still 4k DPS behind.
So sure, in PvP, the NB is better. But stamDKs are easily the most OP build in the game for PvE right now. Just straight stupid damage and unlimited sustain because it's a heavy attack build. Raid group comp right now is "as many stamDKs as humanly possible."
The top HoF score on esoleaderboards.com for EU has 6 DKs in the group.
This is not a DK problem but rather a MagDK problem. Which may be partially resolved in the next update if ZOS follows through with their off-balance proposals.
But just quick perusal through leaderboard squads ...
HoF
Dragonknight: 97
Sorcerer: 73
Templar: 63
Nightblade: 29
Warden: 2
MoL
Dragonknight: 354
Sorcerer: 320
Templar: 244
Nightblade: 171
Warden: 20
AA
Dragonknight: 476
Sorcerer: 482
Templar: 380
Nightblade: 311
Warden: 48
DKs are way, way, way over-represented in Trials right now.0 -
Apache_Kid✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »Everything you are saying about cloak pertains way more to a 1v1 situation which is just about the least common type of encounter I have in Cyrodiil.
Yeah, this is the problem, except, you've got it backwards. The entire point behind cloak is that you can engineer 1v1 situations, even against a group. If you're going in, picking a fight with three or four guys, you're going to die. It helps you manage threats, and exploit openings that other classes can't. If you try to play a Nightblade in PvP like a DK, you're going to die horrifically. If you want to play a DK like a NB, it's not going to work, because you can't get into position.
We are talking about the specific usefulness of cloak. Engineering 1v1 situations only works when NONE of the 3 hard counters to cloak I mentioned are present. Yes sometimes you can get lucky by facing a group with little to no AOE and with no one running immove/detect pots, but in my experience, while in combat, 50-60% of the time your cloak is pulled off almost instantly after you cast it. Also, one thing we haven't even mentioned, Is that cost of it only allows you 3-4 casts per bar. With no magicka regen those 3-4 uses take a long time to recharge. Let's say you get pulled out instantly 2 of those 4 times, thats only 5.8 seconds of cloak only enough for a vigor and half's time for you to recover that health you lost or put yourself in a better position to attack your threats. Also not even mentioned yet, Is that the stamNb's only defense against spammable Dot moved like haunting curse is to slot an extremely high cost purge skill. Do that and you completely lose all ability to cloak due to low magicka. You must have great latency and FPS in Cyrodiil or run into mainly PvE people trying to get their vigor/caltrops if you are using cloak as effectively as you are describing it.
No, you're still looking at this as, "I see players, I must strike now and kill them all." That is the wrong mindset for a nightblade. Nightblades are opportunistic predators who pick off vulnerable foes. You're not a stand up fighter.
You want to know how to deal with PvE players invading Cyrodiil? Wait until they're already engaged with something, and distracted, then start picking them off. Don't just pick a fight, and wade in. That will get you killed.
As a nightblade you control when the fight starts. Your ability to control when it ends is a lot more limited.
And, yes, cloak can be instrumental for recovering from a miscalculation, but most of the time, as a nightblade, if you screw up, you die.
You are only in control when the fight starts if you see them first without seeing you. If they see you first, especially If you don't see them, you are at an immediate distinct disadvantage that is very difficult to recover from.0 -
makreth✭✭✭✭✭I don't get what the problem is...At first nightblades do really heavy damage, I suppose this is about the ganking from sneak which the crit bonus was removed on a previous patch and it's now like any regular crit.
Then you can't touch them since some of them wear heavy armor but any heavy armor class will perform around the same.
In the end you dislike stealth we get it OP but it's in the game and it is manageable. Don't make this thread again a personal vendeta against nightblades...aren't you tired? Just practice more. Introduce ideas on "fixing" - improving your favourite class - magdk spec if you think it's underperforming. Pointing the finger after losing in cyrodiil ain't the right way .1 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Apache_Kid wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »Everything you are saying about cloak pertains way more to a 1v1 situation which is just about the least common type of encounter I have in Cyrodiil.
Yeah, this is the problem, except, you've got it backwards. The entire point behind cloak is that you can engineer 1v1 situations, even against a group. If you're going in, picking a fight with three or four guys, you're going to die. It helps you manage threats, and exploit openings that other classes can't. If you try to play a Nightblade in PvP like a DK, you're going to die horrifically. If you want to play a DK like a NB, it's not going to work, because you can't get into position.
We are talking about the specific usefulness of cloak. Engineering 1v1 situations only works when NONE of the 3 hard counters to cloak I mentioned are present. Yes sometimes you can get lucky by facing a group with little to no AOE and with no one running immove/detect pots, but in my experience, while in combat, 50-60% of the time your cloak is pulled off almost instantly after you cast it. Also, one thing we haven't even mentioned, Is that cost of it only allows you 3-4 casts per bar. With no magicka regen those 3-4 uses take a long time to recharge. Let's say you get pulled out instantly 2 of those 4 times, thats only 5.8 seconds of cloak only enough for a vigor and half's time for you to recover that health you lost or put yourself in a better position to attack your threats. Also not even mentioned yet, Is that the stamNb's only defense against spammable Dot moved like haunting curse is to slot an extremely high cost purge skill. Do that and you completely lose all ability to cloak due to low magicka. You must have great latency and FPS in Cyrodiil or run into mainly PvE people trying to get their vigor/caltrops if you are using cloak as effectively as you are describing it.
No, you're still looking at this as, "I see players, I must strike now and kill them all." That is the wrong mindset for a nightblade. Nightblades are opportunistic predators who pick off vulnerable foes. You're not a stand up fighter.
You want to know how to deal with PvE players invading Cyrodiil? Wait until they're already engaged with something, and distracted, then start picking them off. Don't just pick a fight, and wade in. That will get you killed.
As a nightblade you control when the fight starts. Your ability to control when it ends is a lot more limited.
And, yes, cloak can be instrumental for recovering from a miscalculation, but most of the time, as a nightblade, if you screw up, you die.
You are only in control when the fight starts if you see them first without seeing you. If they see you first, especially If you don't see them, you are at an immediate distinct disadvantage that is very difficult to recover from.
That's correct.
And, yeah, this does mean I spend a lot of time in Cyrodiil, with either Stage 4 vampirism, Shadowdancer, or Night's Silence running, so I can slip around undetected. When combined with Concealed Weapon (yes, even on a stamblade) that means I have a lot more options to ensure I have the drop on others.
To be clear, I've survived raiding parties and zergs undetected. Even picking off the occasional straggler. It does require you to be much more aware of your surroundings, and keep an eye out for anyone scampering around your vicinity.
If you're going in to PvP on a lone nightblade, you need to be aware of your environment and keep a low profile. Shhh, you're hunting Wabbits.0 -
Apache_Kid✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I don't get what the problem is...At first nightblades do really heavy damage, I suppose this is about the ganking from sneak which the crit bonus was removed on a previous patch and it's now like any regular crit.
Then you can't touch them since some of them wear heavy armor but any heavy armor class will perform around the same.
In the end you dislike stealth we get it OP but it's in the game and it is manageable. Don't make this thread again a personal vendeta against nightblades...aren't you tired? Just practice more. Introduce ideas on "fixing" - improving your favourite class - magdk spec if you think it's underperforming. Pointing the finger after losing in cyrodiil ain't the right way .
I don't even know a single stam-blade that runs around in heavy with the shuffle requiring 5 pieces of medium. I've always used medium and many NB players in my guild have moved over to medium to prepare for the patch that is live on console today.0 -
technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It's funny seeing NB's being complained about. Who would've thought three years ago.
When the game was getting ready to launch; I joined a guild that intended to focus on group PVP. There was a rule then. “No rolling a NB. They suck and provide nothing for the group “ and it was completely accurate at the time1 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It's funny seeing NB's being complained about. Who would've thought three years ago.
When the game was getting ready to launch; I joined a guild that intended to focus on group PVP. There was a rule then. “No rolling a NB. They suck and provide nothing for the group “ and it was completely accurate at the time
It's even funnier given, I rolled something like four Nightblades in early access. It was pretty brutal back then. But, of course, now I'm a god among magpies, so I've got that going for me.0 -
Strider__Roshin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭So I'm not going to downplay Nightblades because I know they're very strong in the right hands, but I would not say that they're over-performing by any means. For one it requires a very talented player in order to be impressive in PvE with a Nightblade since you need to be borderline perfect whereas DKs have among the easiest rotations and can achieve just as high DPS with less effort.
In PvP once again they can be incredibly powerful but it requires a very talented player to be successful with. Now I agree Nightblades are annoying with that cloaking nonsense, but one detection potion and they're easy AP. They're the only class that you can easily kill with the use of a potion.
Personally I'm not butt hurt with the petrify change because of the range reduction (I use stone fist personally), but I am butt hurt that they gave petrify to Sorcs. No idea why they felt that move was more appropriate in their hands.2 -
dodgehopper_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭So I was browsing through the base/main CWC patch notes that are live currently on PC, as the new DLC goes live on consoles tomorrow... And umm... Guys... Either I misread a lot of things, or perhaps ZOS is a tad bit more clueless than we’d all like to believe.
Let’s begin with a class balance change comparison between DK’s and NB’s...
Dragonknights:
- Nerfed Fossilize to make Stonefist appear more appealing.
- Made Shifting Standard cost more ultimate, and made it so that you no longer generate ultimate while it is active. Mind you this was done on a class that sustains through the use of ultimates. Lol. And you reduced the uptime of it by roughly 8 to 10 seconds.
- You made Cauterize be able to self-heal (lmao), and fire off said fire balls of healing faster.
Nightblades:
- Made a HUGE buffs to both Executioner and Grim Focus. Because yeah, NB’s were definitely having trouble killing things and sustaining (/sarcasm).
- You’ve made Manifestation of Terror even more appealing.
- You’ve gone ahead and buffed Soul Siphon, because why again...? It was bad, because why?
ZOS... No. not okay. As is Nightblades are the most used class. Whether it be magicka or stamina oriented. That’s besides the point. The point is, anyone who plays ESO knows that there are far more Nightblades running about in PvE (and especially PvP) than any other class. Aaaaand you decided to throw them another bone. Where as you’ve made a class that was struggling in its usage take yet another hit to the chin (DK’s). Especially the magicka variant of DK’s. Whenever I’m out and about, whether I’m doing: Trials, dungeons, or PvP, I always get asked why it is I’m even bothering with MagDK’s. And this holds especially true now. Why bother? Why not just use 1 of my Nightblades, or just stick with my Sorc full-time? I mean, there truly is no incentive to use a MagDK outside of a trial where having a chainer would be useful *cough MoL cough*. So yeah. Why bother?
And before someone says, “Champ, you are just whining. You didn’t even list what ZOS could do to make things better.” It’s pretty much useless at this point. ZOS has received more suggestions on helping out DK’s (specifically MagDK’s) than I could count. Tons of threads about this. Yet said suggestions get ignored like 1-800 numbers that show-up on the caller ID. They don’t answer those callings.
And PS:
Can you PLEASE buff cold/frost damage, and or boost MagDen (magicka Warden) damage? Please? PLEASE!?
They also nerfed the other fear reducing it to 2 targets and the recovery of Nightblades has been lowered a lot. How do I know this? I've been playing nightblade for a while and there are things I could not do 2 patches ago that I could do 3 patches ago, and this most recent patch was even more nerfing. Siphoning strikes is vastly weaker than what it use to be and this has changed the class significantly. Possibly for the better, but I'm not sure how Nightblades are the 'most used class'. I think everyone has a nightblade because most of the storyline content involves sneaking at some point, especially with things like Dark Brotherhood & Thieves Guild, but also all of the new stories have a sneaking component. Nightblades are not as awesome as you think, they're just annoying in pvp when you get them to 10% health, and then they run away and come back and attack 30 seconds later and rinse and repeat that annoying tactic over and over.US/AD - Dodge Hopper - Vet Imperial Templar | US/AD - Goj-ei-Raj - Vet Argonian Nightblade
US/AD - Arondonimo - Vet Altmer Sorcerer | US/AD - Azumarax - Vet Dunmer Dragon Knight
US/AD - Barkan al-Sheharesh - Vet Redguard Dragon Knight | US/AD - Aelus Vortavoriil - Vet Altmer Templar
US/AD - Shirari Qa'Dar - Vet Khajiit Nightblade | US/AD - Ndvari Mzunchvolenthumz - Vet Bosmer Nightblade
US/EP - Yngmar - Vet Nord Dragon Knight | US/EP - Reloth Ur Fyr - Vet Dunmer Sorcerer
US/DC - Muiredeach - Vet Breton Sorcerer | US/DC - Nachtrabe - Vet Orc Nightblade
EU/DC - Dragol gro-Unglak - Vet Orc Dragon Knight | EU/DC - Targan al-Barkan - Vet Redguard Templar
EU/DC - Wuthmir - Vet Nord Sorcerer | EU/DC - Kosh Ragotoro - Vet Khajiit Nightblade
<And plenty more>1 -
Thogard✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
You’re not running a soloing setup. You’re running a zergling setup.TheBonesXXX wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »How can you honestly sit here and say MagDk is worse off as a class in Cyrodiil right now than Stamblades are. I'm speechless.
Edit: MagDk is in a bad place in PvE now but not in PvP whatsoever.
The thing about Blades is... if you know what you're doing, it is a phenomenally dangerous class. I haven't been messing around with a Stamblade in PvP since this patch hit, but, as someone who's spent the last (almost three years) learning the ins and outs of the class, and with it's state for the last couple patches before CWC, yeah, I haven no trouble believing that MagDKs are in worse shape right now, than StamBlades.
Now, fair's fair, I'm not an expert on the DK. I know my way around NBs and Sorcs; Templars and DKs have never really grabbed me in the same way. But, yeah, from what I've done with a DK in the last couple months, vs the current state of the NB? That's not really that implausible.
NBs are very fragile. If you know how to play it, you can get some fantastic results. If you don't, it can be an exercise in frustration.
Now, if there's some DK synergy that's making the MagDKs way more effective in PvP, then I'm unaware, and that one's all on me.
Shiiiiiiit. That makes you and me and both. Lmao. I’ve been actively maining a MagDK in PvP for years, with me only swapping to my NB’s when I’m incredibly annoyed with overconfident folks in PvP and want to cheese AP. Last time I brought my MagSorc into PvP was to get them the “Star-Made Knight” title. And proceeded with immediately re-spec’ing them back to PvE specifications.
@Apache_Kid So please, do share if you know something that we don’t know about how glorious MagDK’s are in PvP currently. Yes, spamming Talons and popping a Fossilize and Leap here and there are cute. Yes, very cute. Sprinkle some Flash Lashes in there too, and all that jazz. Yup. Really adorable. But please, do tell me what it is that makes MagDK’s such a threat in Battlegrounds or Cyrodiil. I can’t even solo with a MagDK comfortably, because ZOS has screwed up DK’s to be a “utility bot” while steadily draining the class variant’s utility.
All of the things you just mentioned plus having shields. StamNb currently squishest class, no heal other than vigor or shields, only option to purge is a skill that costs all their magicka which takes away the use of cloak. And most of the things you are trying to purge (haunting curse) can be reapplied right after you purge it. And cloak? Please. Try cloaking with like any dot ability on you and it will pull you out instantly. Cloak doesn't work half the time because of this and it is their only defense other than dodge roll.
StamBlades squishy...? Lol. Please watch this video of a duel I had with a StamBlade while using my MagDK a few weeks ago. It’s also why I hardly duel anymore, unless it is that I know the person and or they are friendly. I don’t waste my time with them, as I have the “Duelist” title on all the characters I aimed to have it on. There is nothing squishy about StamBlades. Please stop parroting what people falsely claim, but have no skill with.
https://youtu.be/Q2BFJbhPLNw
As for issues with MagSorcs, I melt them on my StamBlade. Melt them. Melt. Them. The only time I lose to MagSorcs, is if they are a PetSorc camping mines. And even then, that type of scrubby playstyle is encountered only in duels. And hardly ever in Cyrodiil. After fear is cast, MagSorcs get annihilated. And if I’m being extra cheesy and using poisons on my StamBlade, it becomes an even bigger mess and faster defeat for the Sorc I’m targeting.
Sounds to me like you need to evaluate your StamBlade build, playstyle, or knowledge on engaging other classes.
You stood there in his face going through your rotations while trying to perma-block. While that player continually made you reposition yourself and used stealth very wisely, meanwhile you failed to kill him with your toolkit available to you, I mean, you failed to kill him.
You were outplayed and you had a toolkit that is an antithesis to the Nightblade, congrats I guess.
So we are going to disregard the fact that he’s a StamBlade in 5pcs. heavy, using S&B, is running TrollKing, is using evasion boosts, plus running vitality pots, and is setup for duels. Where as I’m setup for solo’ing in Cyrodiil. Okay. Sure. Uh huh. Total antithesis to the build he was running. Riiiiiiight.
Tell you what. I’ll go put on Trollking, use vitality pots on cooldown on my StamBlade in 5pcs. heavy with evasion assist, and go duel someone setup for Cyrodiil while I’m using a build exclusively for dueling. And proceed with claiming how my opponents got outplayed when they lose to me. Heck, I’ll even be a scumbag and t-bag them at the end of the duel as well. Because why not, right? They did “fail” to kill me running said setup, yes? I’ll even specifically target MagDK’s for the duel too m, because you claim how they are such a counter to the given setup. Lol.
PC NA - @dazkt - Dazk Ardoonkt / Sir Thogalot / Dask Dragoh’t / Dazk Dragoh’t / El Thogardo
Stream: twitch.tv/THOGARDvsThePeasants
YouTube: http://youtube.com/c/thogardpvp4 -
Kronuxx✭✭✭✭I feel your pain @Ch4mpTW , now mind you, I've played every stamina version of each class, so I'm more versed on stamina DK's, who I think are in just as bad of a spot (I'll explain this later). I've leveled and played every class and honestly, DK's are in a bad spot right now. My latest class that I leveled up was a stamina NB, and I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw all the stamina morphs they had for their class skills. What was it, like 6?!! Leeching strikes, Power Extraction, Killer's Blade, Ambush, Relentless Focus, and Surprise Attack. Considering the fact, that one them is a spammable gap closer that grants Empower of all things, and a spammable stamina damage skill (Surprise Attack) that can proc Major Defile and gives the debuff Major Fracture?! I mean, what in the actual ***! I was ecstatic because I thought to myself, look at all the options I have. I don't have to depend on wrecking blow, or crit charge, and I can still wear heavy armor and have 15% dodge chance through Blur. Whenever I hear a NB complain about their class, I immediately ignore them because it's clear they haven't given a DK a good run to see how poorly set their position is.
Then you come across Stamina DK, and we have 2 stamina morphs, both of which are DOTS...I mean, let that sink in for a moment. Only 2 stamina morphs out of all the class skills, and all they do is apply a DOT, with applying Major Fracture. Which by the way, Noxious Breath is so difficult to land due to it's difficulty in judging it's range and aoe span. And by the way, both of these dots can be cleansed. We do not have one single spammable stamina skill, or even a class execute skill. Now I know what some may be thinking, Stam Sorc doesn't have a spammable stamina class skill, and yes that's true they don't. But they have excellent class utility skills such as Dark Deal, bound armaments, class passives that synergize exceptionally well with weapon skills, and a passive that gives an execute (way too much imo).
Overall, there is no class balance and we DK's are hurting real bad. It is in my honest opinion, that ZOS is not only incompetent when it comes programming code efficiently, but they have no idea how class balance works. For crying out loud, these are the same people who released a game that initially had every single skill scale with magicka, that included weapon skills...Edited by Kronuxx on November 7, 2017 6:22PM2 -
Thogard✭✭✭✭✭
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Stam DK is underpowered in PvP if you try to play it like a Stam sorc, Stamplar, or Stamblade...I feel your pain @Ch4mpTW , now mind you, I've played every stamina version of each class, so I'm more versed on stamina DK's, who I think are in just as bad of a spot (I'll explain this later). I've leveled and played every class and honestly, DK's are in a bad spot right now. My latest class that I leveled up was a stamina NB, and I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw all the stamina morphs they had for their class skills. What was it, like 6?!! Leeching strikes, Power Extraction, Killer's Blade, Ambush, Relentless Focus, and Surprise Attack. Considering the fact, that one them is a spammable gap closer that grants Empower of all things, and a spammable stamina damage skill (Surprise Attack) that can proc Major Defile and gives the debuff Major Fracture?! I mean, what in the actual ***! I was ecstatic because I thought to myself, look at all the options I have. I don't have to depend on wrecking blow, or crit charge, and I can still wear heavy armor and have 15% dodge chance through Blur. Whenever I hear a NB complain about their class, I immediately ignore them because it's clear they haven't given a DK a good run to see how poorly set their position is.
Then you come across Stamina DK, and we have 2 stamina morphs, both of which are DOTS...I mean, let that sink in for a moment. Only 2 stamina morphs out of all the class skills, and all they do is apply a DOT, with applying Major Fracture. Which by the way, Noxious Breath is so difficult to land due to it's difficulty in judging it's range and aoe span. And by the way, both of these dots can be cleansed. We do not have one single spammable stamina skill, or even a class execute skill. Now I know what some may be thinking, Stam Sorc doesn't have a spammable stamina class skill, and yes that's true they don't. But they have excellent class utility skills such as Dark Deal, bound armaments, class passives that synergize exceptionally well with weapon skills, and a passive that gives an execute (way too much imo).
Overall, there is no class balance and we DK's are hurting real bad. It is in my honest opinion, that ZOS is not only incompetent when it comes programming code efficiently, but they have no idea how class balance works. For crying out loud, these are the same people who released a game that initially had every single skill scale with magicka, that included weapon skills...
It’s not a constant damage class. If you play it like one you’ll be underwhelmed.
Stam DK is a tank in PvP. It’s a hold your ground class that can outlast and then burst. But you have to really know the class and more importantly your opponent in order to make it work.
Unfortunately for Stam DK, Stam warden is exactly the same but with constant burst.
PC NA - @dazkt - Dazk Ardoonkt / Sir Thogalot / Dask Dragoh’t / Dazk Dragoh’t / El Thogardo
Stream: twitch.tv/THOGARDvsThePeasants
YouTube: http://youtube.com/c/thogardpvp3 -
Kronuxx✭✭✭✭
Stam DK is underpowered in PvP if you try to play it like a Stam sorc, Stamplar, or Stamblade...I feel your pain @Ch4mpTW , now mind you, I've played every stamina version of each class, so I'm more versed on stamina DK's, who I think are in just as bad of a spot (I'll explain this later). I've leveled and played every class and honestly, DK's are in a bad spot right now. My latest class that I leveled up was a stamina NB, and I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw all the stamina morphs they had for their class skills. What was it, like 6?!! Leeching strikes, Power Extraction, Killer's Blade, Ambush, Relentless Focus, and Surprise Attack. Considering the fact, that one them is a spammable gap closer that grants Empower of all things, and a spammable stamina damage skill (Surprise Attack) that can proc Major Defile and gives the debuff Major Fracture?! I mean, what in the actual ***! I was ecstatic because I thought to myself, look at all the options I have. I don't have to depend on wrecking blow, or crit charge, and I can still wear heavy armor and have 15% dodge chance through Blur. Whenever I hear a NB complain about their class, I immediately ignore them because it's clear they haven't given a DK a good run to see how poorly set their position is.
Then you come across Stamina DK, and we have 2 stamina morphs, both of which are DOTS...I mean, let that sink in for a moment. Only 2 stamina morphs out of all the class skills, and all they do is apply a DOT, with applying Major Fracture. Which by the way, Noxious Breath is so difficult to land due to it's difficulty in judging it's range and aoe span. And by the way, both of these dots can be cleansed. We do not have one single spammable stamina skill, or even a class execute skill. Now I know what some may be thinking, Stam Sorc doesn't have a spammable stamina class skill, and yes that's true they don't. But they have excellent class utility skills such as Dark Deal, bound armaments, class passives that synergize exceptionally well with weapon skills, and a passive that gives an execute (way too much imo).
Overall, there is no class balance and we DK's are hurting real bad. It is in my honest opinion, that ZOS is not only incompetent when it comes programming code efficiently, but they have no idea how class balance works. For crying out loud, these are the same people who released a game that initially had every single skill scale with magicka, that included weapon skills...
It’s not a constant damage class. If you play it like one you’ll be underwhelmed.
Stam DK is a tank in PvP. It’s a hold your ground class that can outlast and then burst. But you have to really know the class and more importantly your opponent in order to make it work.
Unfortunately for Stam DK, Stam warden is exactly the same but with constant burst.
While I can agree with you that Stam DK plays as a tank in PvP, the problem is that so can every other class do the same when specced towards that objective. The difference here is that every other class can also do significant burst damage, while a StamDk has to depend on ultimate building. When that ultimate burst fails, the DK has to wait again to build that burst. The other classes do not have to rely on ultimate abilities for burst, as they can apply constant pressure. In short, DK's have been pigeon-holed into one position. Other classes? Can tank if specced and deal damage. Just look at the recent surgence of NB tanks, warden tanks, and yes even sorc tanks in PvP.Edited by Kronuxx on November 7, 2017 7:38PM1 -
Malic✭✭✭✭✭
✭Some of these people have to be new.
Remember after beta and I dont know the next 6-9 months the magi vamp DK gods that ran around? If one became emperor party over. DK's are a shadow of what they were, but they are still dam good. Anyone [snip] about what a DK cant do, is likely bored with what it can do or doesnt understand the class. Go out to cyrodiil, youre going to find some of the best dps and survive in DK's. In a good players hands (someone who can ani cancel and knows his rotation) DK's are extremely potent.
NB has been in a good spot for a long time for both stam and magi. The class passives are spectacular add in CP and an enterprising player who takes their time with testing sets can pull nearly everything off in the game.
The real difference is NB isnt complex. Its got one of the cheapest magi spamables in the game, its got one of the most potent damage class ulti's in the game (and its cheap even with the bump to 70) and its got cloak. Why it isnt complex is the passive are spectacular. Really any noob can jump into a NB and perform well, in a skilled players hands its even better than a DK.
It really boils down to people trying to equate NB's potential damage output to DK's potential survival output. They do different things, if youre going to spend a lot of time on what the toon cant do and not more time on what it can do well, youre going to end up frustrated and just bad.
The best players arent more skilled then you, the best players take what a toon gives them and makes THAT ASPECT poweful which lifts everything else up.
Wait a moment. Did you just say that DK’s have some of the best DPS and survival in PvP...? What? You must be talking about StamDK’s. You have to be talking exclusively about StamDK’s in your post. Have to. There is absolutely no possible way you are talking about MagDK’s in the slightest. Have you not encountered a Sorc in PvP or a NB in regards to damage and survival? Actually, screw them both. Have you ever encountered a MagPlar in PvP (regarding survival)?
By the way, this all extends beyond PvP. In PvE, MagDK damage is barely hanging on to being relevant. And that’s only because they gutted MagPlars, and MagDen DPS is atrocious (BUFF MAGICKA WARDEN HNNNNNNG!!!). So all you’re left with is NB and Sorc regarding high DPS in end-game content. And even then, what does MagDK bring to the table? A possible off-balance and Engulfing Flames. That’s it. Unless you’re doig VMoL and need a chainer, or VH-RC and need a Deep Breath for right side/top group. That’s it. And even then, you don’t exactly require a MagDK for top group. It just makes it easier.
I have every class for both lines stam and magi maxed with the exception of warden.
I hit people hard with flame lash, its one of the hardest hitting class skills ive used and yes i have a magi sorc. I concede this is a pretty new condition but that with my ferocious leap on my dark elf is racking up serious damage.
But I see what youre basically complaining about what every other class can do that the DK cant. You've created the conditions by which you arent going to happy no matter what counter point is brought up even if its perfectly valid. The problem really is ZOS takes feedback from people like you and we get hemoginized classes that can literally do everything.
I doing okay out there on my magi DK, I get zerged, I loose some 1v1's I can sometimes take 2 on at a time sometimes I cant but in the end Im not logging off thinking "boy if my magiDK was a magpalar I would have been much better"
Im logging off thinking how do I take what I have and make the outcome better. This, I believe is the critical difference. Im not suggesting your points are wrong, yep a magi sorc can do more damage point conceded. If you want to spend your time on your DK thinking about what sorcs can do, youre probably going to be unhappy with any toon you play.
Edited by ZOS_KatP on February 28, 2018 3:39PM2 -
Malic✭✭✭✭✭
✭starkerealm wrote: »The real difference is NB isnt complex. Its got one of the cheapest magi spamables in the game, its got one of the most potent damage class ulti's in the game (and its cheap even with the bump to 70) and its got cloak. Why it isnt complex is the passive are spectacular. Really any noob can jump into a NB and perform well, in a skilled players hands its even better than a DK.
While I agree with this, in general. It's probably worth pointing out that NBs operate with very little margin for error, hence the "skill" comments. It's a lot easier to recover from mistakes on... well, any other class. If you screw up on a NB, you (usually) will take a dirtnap for your mistakes.
Yes and no, the issue with NB as I see it is the class points you in max damage direction due to passives and then tricks you with cloak so you think you've always got an out. So most NB's build this way and ya you get caught your dead.
I have a set up with 5 heavy rattle cage body, 2 slime craw (med shoulders, light head) and 4 necro (had the flame staff) back bar was resto. I was pretty dam tanky in that set up and I could hit hard. I use soul assault as the finisher but the build was forgiving because I built it to take a hit.
A lot of NB are running around glass cannon or mostly glass cannon. They build for burst and I understand why all the passives point you in that direction.0 -
xenowarrior92eb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Girl_Number8 wrote: »Yes, that is balance if you add in the cp changes too. See everyone will be a nightblade there is your balance. Just like I will have a steady balance of ap from the stealthflakes, lol.
funny about NB is that they aint for everyone...while sorcs are a 3 button class.1 -
Ch4mpTW✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭xenowarrior92eb17_ESO wrote: »Girl_Number8 wrote: »Yes, that is balance if you add in the cp changes too. See everyone will be a nightblade there is your balance. Just like I will have a steady balance of ap from the stealthflakes, lol.
funny about NB is that they aint for everyone...while sorcs are a 3 button class.
That’s a pretty bold statement to make. Especially when there are more Nightblades than any other class in ESO. Especially in PvP. Which type of PvP? Take your pick. Lol. You’ll encounter them more than any other class in: BG, Cyrodiil, or duel requests.
So ummm... What was that about the class not being for everyone? I’m starting to even see more NB’s than DK’s in trials. In fact, most people will limit the amount of DK’s per trial nowadays to 1. Unless! Unless they need 2 chainers for VMoL. Outside of that, the limit is strictly 1.0
