Twilight Tormentor sucks...

SirMewser · November 2017

Variables: Compare the DPS difference between theTwilight Matriarch an the Twilight Tormentor.
Values: Taken from outputted overhead damage in combat.
Margin of Error: An output range of lowest/worst/unbuffed to highest/best/buffed (on account of; buffs, debuffs, and criticals).
Circumstance: Twilight is using her range attack only, on a target over 50% health, with sustained (de)buffs.

Substituting...
7 - 12k (Tormentor)

Matriarch should hit for 50% less than all calculations...
( 7k / 1.5 ) - ( 12k / 1.5 ) = ...
~4.67 - 8k (Matriarch)

A ratio is made with the two comparatively...
~4.67 - 8k (Matriarch) : 7 - 12k (Tormentor)
Because...
( 100% / 150% ) * 100 =
66.7% = (Matriarch%)
33.3% = (Range%)
100% = (Tormentor%)

For DPS, remove the AI's 2 second intervals between attacks... By dividing by 2.
[ ( 4.67 - 8k ) / 2 ] : [ ( 7 - 12k ) / 2 ] =
~2.3 - 4k (Matriarch) : 3.5 - 6k (Tormentor)

Subtract worst and best values of the two variables to acquire a range difference using only absolute values...
| ~2.3k (Matriarch) - 3.5k (Tormentor) | & | 4k (Matriarch) - 6k (Tormentor) | =
1.2k - 2k (Tormentor > Matriarch)

Checking ratio;
Matriarch% = 100 * (Worst Matriarch# / Worst Tormentor# ) & 100 * ( Best Matriarch# / Best Tormentor# )
Matriarch% = 100 * ( ~2.3k / 3.5k ) & 100 * ( 4k / 6k )
Matriarch% = ~65.7% & 66.7%
Range% = ( | Matriarch - Tormentor | / Tormentor% ) * 100
Range% = ( | 2.3k - 3.5k | / 3.5k ) * 100 & ( | 4k - 6k | / 6k ) * 100
Range% = 34.3% or 1.2k & 33.3% or 2k

Assume time to finish <50% health = >50% heath, divide by 2...
( 1.2k / 2 ) - ( 2k / 2) =
0.6k - 1k (Tormentor > Matriarch)

Because of time within <50% health exists, the dps values in >50% fluctuates.
0.6k - 1k * (time>50%hp / time<50%hp)

Examples;
1k * (30seconds in >50% health / 25seconds in <50% health) = 1'200 dps
1k * (15seconds in >50% health / 19seconds in <50% health) = 789 dps

Showing: Tormentor DPS overhaul to the Matriarch DPS, in best circumstances.

This is why the Twilight Tormentor's situational damage is generally not in favour over the Twilight Matriarch's multi-auto-targeting-smart-burst-heal-guaranteed where you retain 66.7% of the Twilight Tormentor's damage, even more when accounting the condition for the bonus damage.

Given this, substituting two other abilities that occupies this one ability wouldn't be too difficult to outperform, however, do remember that the calculations are the difference of theTormentor's and Matriarch's DPS (Matriarch being a ground 0).

Even with higher values and multipliers, the range value is still abysmal given the situational circumstances and AI delays when compared to the utility of the Matriarch.

Suggestions?
Would like to see this pet acquire a debuffing effect to her passive single target attack, it should be tied into the active component so players have to cost magic to maintain it, but would grant usefulness of the active outside of the 50%+ health window.

GrumpyDuckling · November 2017

My suggestion:

Keep the Twilight Matriarch morph the way it is, and replace Twilight Tormentor with a stamina summon (like a daedric spider that shoots venom projectiles).

Thogard · November 2017

These numbers are great but you aren’t really factoring in how most sorc fights play out and that’s causing the final part of your equation to be an inaccurate model. I love the Tormenter and I think it’s OP AF inside of the sorc toolkit. Here’s why.

Sorc execute triggers at 20% and usually kills the target... so really the sorc just has to get the enemy from 100% down to 20%.
Curse + crushing shock + weapon glyph (hitting at same time) is usually what triggers the execute. The execute follows immediately because it’s a proc... so realistically if your opponent is at ~50% when these things hit them then they’ll end up procing the execute and be dead.

So the challenge for the sorc is to use the rest of their toolkit to get their opponent down to 50% and let the curse/shock/wrath do the rest. This is usually accomplished by crystal blast (which used to stun and then they’re dead before they can get back up...) and pets and small dots.

In my necropotence build my Tormenter hits for around 2.5k with the buff up. It does a great job of getting people into that 50% health range where all the sudden they explode and die and write “nerf sorc” posts on the boards. The duels and fights that sorcs lose are when they can’t get their opponent below 60%. Sorcs combos are great finishers but they don’t have much that works to get their opponent down in the beginning.

Except the Tormenter. Which is why I love it and think it’s a significantly better pet for a DPS mag sorc, especially if you’re resto back bar and can heal with healing ward.

TL DR: IMO that dmg Increase on Tormenter is up 100% of the time, because as soon as the enemy drops below 50% vs a decent sorc they’ll get combo’d and die instantly anyway.

Waffennacht · November 2017

Thogard wrote: »

These numbers are great but you aren’t really factoring in how most sorc fights play out and that’s causing the final part of your equation to be an inaccurate model. I love the Tormenter and I think it’s OP AF inside of the sorc toolkit. Here’s why.

Sorc execute triggers at 20% and usually kills the target... so really the sorc just has to get the enemy from 100% down to 20%.
Curse + crushing shock + weapon glyph (hitting at same time) is usually what triggers the execute. The execute follows immediately because it’s a proc... so realistically if your opponent is at ~50% when these things hit them then they’ll end up procing the execute and be dead.

So the challenge for the sorc is to use the rest of their toolkit to get their opponent down to 50% and let the curse/shock/wrath do the rest. This is usually accomplished by crystal blast (which used to stun and then they’re dead before they can get back up...) and pets and small dots.

In my necropotence build my Tormenter hits for around 2.5k with the buff up. It does a great job of getting people into that 50% health range where all the sudden they explode and die and write “nerf sorc” posts on the boards. The duels and fights that sorcs lose are when they can’t get their opponent below 60%. Sorcs combos are great finishers but they don’t have much that works to get their opponent down in the beginning.

Except the Tormenter. Which is why I love it and think it’s a significantly better pet for a DPS mag sorc, especially if you’re resto back bar and can heal with healing ward.

TL DR: IMO that dmg Increase on Tormenter is up 100% of the time, because as soon as the enemy drops below 50% vs a decent sorc they’ll get combo’d and die instantly anyway.

@Thogard you're coming from a PvP perspective, in PvE differences as small as 2% can make or break the viability of a set or ability for end game content.

I'm not going to comment to how good or bad it is in PvP, but the point is, it really doesn't get the job done in what it's supposed to be doing imo. I just don't run it at all for either PvP or PvE

SirMewser · November 2017

Thogard wrote: »

These numbers are great but you aren’t really factoring in how most sorc fights play out and that’s causing the final part of your equation to be an inaccurate model. I love the Tormenter and I think it’s OP AF inside of the sorc toolkit. Here’s why.

Sorc execute triggers at 20% and usually kills the target... so really the sorc just has to get the enemy from 100% down to 20%.
Curse + crushing shock + weapon glyph (hitting at same time) is usually what triggers the execute. The execute follows immediately because it’s a proc... so realistically if your opponent is at ~50% when these things hit them then they’ll end up procing the execute and be dead.

So the challenge for the sorc is to use the rest of their toolkit to get their opponent down to 50% and let the curse/shock/wrath do the rest. This is usually accomplished by crystal blast (which used to stun and then they’re dead before they can get back up...) and pets and small dots.

In my necropotence build my Tormenter hits for around 2.5k with the buff up. It does a great job of getting people into that 50% health range where all the sudden they explode and die and write “nerf sorc” posts on the boards. The duels and fights that sorcs lose are when they can’t get their opponent below 60%. Sorcs combos are great finishers but they don’t have much that works to get their opponent down in the beginning.

Except the Tormenter. Which is why I love it and think it’s a significantly better pet for a DPS mag sorc, especially if you’re resto back bar and can heal with healing ward.

TL DR: IMO that dmg Increase on Tormenter is up 100% of the time, because as soon as the enemy drops below 50% vs a decent sorc they’ll get combo’d and die instantly anyway.

That's valid to say... I did think of that but brushed it aside because I am one of those 90% of the time, PvE players...
I see that in PvP it can be good for the exact reasons you gave, trying to keep pressure so the opponent stays under 50% health or lower for execute.

I was thinking along the lines of trash mobs and bosses where I think this pet struggles a bit.

Erraln · November 2017

Thogard wrote: »

These numbers are great but you aren’t really factoring in how most sorc fights play out and that’s causing the final part of your equation to be an inaccurate model. I love the Tormenter and I think it’s OP AF inside of the sorc toolkit. Here’s why.

Sorc execute triggers at 20% and usually kills the target... so really the sorc just has to get the enemy from 100% down to 20%.
Curse + crushing shock + weapon glyph (hitting at same time) is usually what triggers the execute. The execute follows immediately because it’s a proc... so realistically if your opponent is at ~50% when these things hit them then they’ll end up procing the execute and be dead.

So the challenge for the sorc is to use the rest of their toolkit to get their opponent down to 50% and let the curse/shock/wrath do the rest. This is usually accomplished by crystal blast (which used to stun and then they’re dead before they can get back up...) and pets and small dots.

In my necropotence build my Tormenter hits for around 2.5k with the buff up. It does a great job of getting people into that 50% health range where all the sudden they explode and die and write “nerf sorc” posts on the boards. The duels and fights that sorcs lose are when they can’t get their opponent below 60%. Sorcs combos are great finishers but they don’t have much that works to get their opponent down in the beginning.

Except the Tormenter. Which is why I love it and think it’s a significantly better pet for a DPS mag sorc, especially if you’re resto back bar and can heal with healing ward.

TL DR: IMO that dmg Increase on Tormenter is up 100% of the time, because as soon as the enemy drops below 50% vs a decent sorc they’ll get combo’d and die instantly anyway.

Good points, but shouldn't the morph have wider utility than adding a little pressure in dueling?