Some Champion Point Changes for the Next Update

RinaldoGandolphi · October 2017

Hi @ZOS_Wrobel and @ZOS_RichLambert

I just want to preface this by saying you folks have done a pretty good job of balancing the overall Champion System with Morrowind considering how much there is in that system to balance. You are very close to having it about as good as you could possibly get it while still being interesting. there is however 5 Champion Point Stars in the system that should be removed.

Those Stars are:

1. Shadow Ward - Reduce Block Cost
2. Warlord - Reduce Break Free Cost.
3. Tumbling - Reduce Dodgeroll cost
4. Sprinter - Reduce Sprint Cost
5. Bashing Focus - Reduce Bash Cost

There should be no cost reductions for anything available in the CP System. This appeared to be the overall vision with Morrowind as the Stamina and Magicka Cost Reduction stars were removed and the regen stars reduced.

Shadow Ward, Bashing Focus, Tumbling, and Sprinter are doubly problematic because these five Champion Point stars also have Weapon/Armor Passives(Athletics for Tumbling, Fortress for Block cost, and Deadly Bash for Bash Costs) as well as Armor traits(Well-Fitted for Sprint and Dodgeroll, and Sturdy for Block costs), and in the case of block jewelry enchantments that further reduces costs.

These things are problematic for the overall vision of the game and are BIG parts of why everyone complains about unkillable tanks and other builds(they just take a ridiclious amount of effort and commitment to kill that simply isn't healthy for the long term health of the game)

Those 5 Champion Stars need to be completely removed and replaced with QOL stars such as these suggestions or something of the like:

1. Field Medic - increases the amount of health, magic, and stamina a person you rez has when they come back to life.(Takes place of Shadoward)
2. Warlord - Changed to reduced the cooldown period on rezzing at a Forward Camp by X % Also increases the chances of looting unique set items from dungeon enemies by X %
3. Master Horseman- increases the amount of damage your horse can take from attacks before being dismounted by X % and reduces the stun period of dismount(replaces Tumbling)
4. Siege Onager - Increases the firing speed and damage of siege weaponry by X % and reduces damage from AOE attacks by X % (Replaces Sprinter)
5. Chemistry - Increases the duration and power of potions effects by X percent and reduces the effects of poisons by X %

Blocking gets a 36% reduction from Sword and Board and 30% from Frost Staff, plus an Armor trait that further reduces it, and an Ultimate in Shield Wall that allows you to block for free, that simply enough....we don't need a CP Star for it too.
Dodging and Sprinting also have armor traits and armor passives for it, don't need a CP Tree either
Break Free is the mechanic used to kill folks who make mistakes, no sense reducing its cost in CP, We have the Alessian Order set, Way of the Arena Set, and Shield of the Valiant sets that directly or indirectly(Alessian Orders 3 second increase to CC Immunity) reduce Break Free costs. There should be clear sacrifices for the ability to break free more considering its such an important mechanic in pvp that decides life or death in 9 out of 10 fights...
Bashing Focus already has cost reductions via enchants and Sword and Board passives, no need for a CP tree for it.

These changes bring things in line with the removal of Magicka and Stamina ability cost reduction removals with Morrowind. Right now the only ways to kill these types of set ups is by layering bleeds or lots of damage over time effects and poisons they can't block and hope its not a Templar, many of these tanks simply can not be killed 1v1, When you see Fengrush, Jules and Kodi even complaining about how stupid tanky and high HP you can get, you know there is a problem here. I personally don't want to see a Max Health cap in Cyrodiil, but I am open to toning down the mechanics that allow these tanks to do what they do. These same tanks also hurt BG's play as well, especially in objective modes like flag capture when many of these tanks do require significant numbers or Negates and root spam to kill especially with CP.

Being a nearly unkillable tank is just as bad for the game as Nightblades like Zergbad one hit killing people, they are both equally bad. ZOS has solved one side of the spectrum by removing most of the one shot mechanics Nightblades had, now its time to address the other side of the extreme, tanks.

In the games current state you can outplay a tank and still not be able to kill him, and thats a problem ZOS. I trust you guys will address this in the future. Even if you don't take any of my feedback, please know that the tank meta is a problem and its not enjoyable for a large portion of your player base.

Thanks again and take care.

Rinaldo

Minno · October 2017

I disagree, warlord+tumbling+block help out mag builds greatly.

What does need to change, is putting block cost entirely on sturdy (or capping it to a 15% max star and putting the rest into sturdy). Or they can change siphoner to, armor breaker which increases your dmg on blocked targets. Or look into how block is calculated.

Reason being, warlord while at 10-20% is still more than 4k Stam cost while tumbling has the Dodge cost increase penalty.

I liked the idea of changing the entire CP system into QOL passives instead of a point dump.

RinaldoGandolphi · October 2017

Aye @Minno

Just to further my thoughts on Tumbling and Warlord.(Not saying im right or wrong mind you)

In 1.X as a Mag Sorc if i wanted to be able to dodge roll more then twice or Block a good bit, I had to invest points into Stamina or use Stamina Glyphs. The current Break Free and Dodge roll Reduction we have now allows Magic Builds and Stamina builds to invest everything into their primary stat , and still have Stamina and still have the same breakfree benefits that required me to invest into stam on a magic toon in 1.X

the idea here is with no CP Break Free or Dodge roll cost reductions, both magic and stam builds will have to be more thoughtful on how often they dodge/block and how often they maintain an offense against an opponent. In other words making mistakes would be punished a bit harder then they are now while also eliminating some of the more problematic set ups.

the thought here, again right or wrong, is with these changes ZOS could probably revert quite a few of the class based nerfs they have done over the last two years without hurting the games balance.

its no secret that Block tanks and dodge roll focused builds are more balanced with No CP because they don't have that Block Cost, Dodgeroll and Break free reduction which in turn puts significantly more pressure on their stamina pool thus they can't maintain those defense mechanics....defense mechanics should buy time, not make you into a titanium fortress.

Those are just my thoughts, right or wrong. I just wanted to share.

Yes, putting more QOL things in the CP system would be great especially if they are useful!

We def need more thought prokoving discussion on this topic though! Keep em coming!

Publius_Scipio · October 2017

Would ZOS further shake up CP like this if they offer no cp PvP?

RinaldoGandolphi · October 2017

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Would ZOS further shake up CP like this if they offer no cp PvP?

Good question, and I am not sure.

NO-CP campaigns appear to be dead, and they changed BG to CP. So if they are wanting to go down that road for the future, then they could revisit a few of the stars and make some changes to better flesh things out. they done pretty good with Morrowind with it, just a few more to adjust and life could be really good with it. Should always strive to improve, always.

Minno · October 2017

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Aye @Minno

Just to further my thoughts on Tumbling and Warlord.(Not saying im right or wrong mind you)

In 1.X as a Mag Sorc if i wanted to be able to dodge roll more then twice or Block a good bit, I had to invest points into Stamina or use Stamina Glyphs. The current Break Free and Dodge roll Reduction we have now allows Magic Builds and Stamina builds to invest everything into their primary stat , and still have Stamina and still have the same breakfree benefits that required me to invest into stam on a magic toon in 1.X

the idea here is with no CP Break Free or Dodge roll cost reductions, both magic and stam builds will have to be more thoughtful on how often they dodge/block and how often they maintain an offense against an opponent. In other words making mistakes would be punished a bit harder then they are now while also eliminating some of the more problematic set ups.

the thought here, again right or wrong, is with these changes ZOS could probably revert quite a few of the class based nerfs they have done over the last two years without hurting the games balance.

its no secret that Block tanks and dodge roll focused builds are more balanced with No CP because they don't have that Block Cost, Dodgeroll and Break free reduction which in turn puts significantly more pressure on their stamina pool thus they can't maintain those defense mechanics....defense mechanics should buy time, not make you into a titanium fortress.

Those are just my thoughts, right or wrong. I just wanted to share.

Yes, putting more QOL things in the CP system would be great especially if they are useful!

We def need more thought prokoving discussion on this topic though! Keep em coming!

That's a good point. Though sprinter is weak, they could change it so that it's a passive (10% reduction in sprinting or remove one snare with a cooldown or provide snare immunity for 3 seconds with a cooldown).

IxSTALKERxI · October 2017

They could always just reduce them to a maximum of 15% for 100 points down from 25%. That alone would have a pretty big impact.

Joy_Division · October 2017

I see what you are trying to accomplish here, but I think the problems in this game go far beyond "unkillable tanks" and the proposed changes to the CP system will just make things worse.

If you listen to Drac's latest podcast, they tell you why they run Plague Doctor: because damage is out of control and it the only way to survive long enough to accomplish anything in the first place. They are right. Nothing happens in a vacuum. I used to run drinks, damage oriented light armor gear, and rely on my class skills to compete. Can't do that anymore. Power-creep is too strong, class skills nerfed into the ground, you're dead if you don't go sword and shield blockcasting BoL or abusing things like Resto ultimate.

I am amazed - amazed - at how quickly a lot of my "fights" end in like 10 seconds even against max CP players and I play a templar that isn't even built for damage. Most of the people you run into in Cyrodiil are the very opposite of "unkillable," they're unsurvivable against experienced players who know what they are doing.

If I did not have Shadow-Ward, Warlord, and Tumbling, I would uninstall the game because trying to stay alive on a class that has no more blinding flashes, no more useful class shield, no more CC, no more major mending, etc., would be nothing but an exercise in frustration. Sorcs and NBs would be the only magicka classes worth a crap because while they couldn't defend themselves very well either, your proposed changes do nothing to effect shield stacking and at least they have a shot at escape.

Another thing that nobody ever considers when complaining about the CP system is that ZoS nerfed many of the base costs into the game and put that power into the Champion System. So under your proposal, it would be relatively more expensive to dodge, block, bash, etc., than it was in 1.5 and this isn't even considering the further nerfs ZoS implemented into these mechanics because of the CP system in the first place (scaling dodge-roll costs, no stam return on blocks, increase frequency of stam costs to blocking, etc.). It would be much more cost prohibitive to use these basic techniques to survive. Oh, and there are no more soft caps, classes are nerfed to the ground, damage is sky-high. So uninstall the game if you don't spec for pure troll/cancer tank or suicide gank build. And even then uninstall the game after a few weeks of monotony.

You need to remove the CP system root and branch in addition to returning all the power stolen from our classes to have the sort of impact you're looking for. Yes, I know Zos is never going to do that. But removing only part of the CP power and doing nothing else is only going to exacerbate the many issues with the system.

Arkangeloski · October 2017

Crack is whack!

WuffyCerulei · October 2017

Something needs to be done about blocking damage in pvp. Like shield strength is reduced by 50%, so the amount of damage you can block should be decrease by like 30-50% in pvp or the cost of block be increase by 30-50%. This wouldn't affect pve tanks, but really make it harder for permablocking tanks to exist in pvp.

Minno · October 2017

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

Something needs to be done about blocking damage in pvp. Like shield strength is reduced by 50%, so the amount of damage you can block should be decrease by like 30-50% in pvp or the cost of block be increase by 30-50%. This wouldn't affect pve tanks, but really make it harder for permablocking tanks to exist in pvp.

Let's wait for Monday's fix for the unblockable spells and then discuss what we should do.

Synapsis123 · October 2017

How is dodging a problem in the current meta? The only thing that is broken is blocking and you are trying to nerf everything. They just need to change the ring enchants for block cost reduction to a percent from a flat value and it would fix most of the issue.

jlboozer · October 2017

So you want to replace skills that give both a pvp and pve advantage with skills that only give a pvp advantage.....no thanks!

RinaldoGandolphi · October 2017

jlboozer wrote: »

So you want to replace skills that give both a pvp and pve advantage with skills that only give a pvp advantage.....no thanks!

If you actually read you would see most of them do have pve advantages...

jlboozer · October 2017

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

jlboozer wrote: »

So you want to replace skills that give both a pvp and pve advantage with skills that only give a pvp advantage.....no thanks!

If you actually read you would see most of them do have pve advantages...

I did read and 3 out of 5 are pvp buffs only....2 out of 5 isn't most bud!

RinaldoGandolphi · October 2017

Synapsis123 wrote: »

How is dodging a problem in the current meta? The only thing that is broken is blocking and you are trying to nerf everything. They just need to change the ring enchants for block cost reduction to a percent from a flat value and it would fix most of the issue.

No, I am trying to make CP consistent....if skills have no cost reduction in CP, neither should active defensive mechanics like blocking, dodging, or breaking free.(considering all these mechanics have armor sets, armor traits, and passives that already reduce their costs)

We never had any of these in 1.x and outside of block(which has always been too strong) dodging and breaking free had to be more well thought out...there was a reason so many folks wore the Arena set back in the day(hence giving up damage and sustain) to break free more.

These CP trees remove "meaningful choices" from the game...I shouldn't be able to gain a 20% reduction to dodge roll, break free, or block without giving up damage and healing ability...perhaps moving those trees(and Quick Recovery) to the blue tree and reducing them to 10% may be a better compromise....they def need to come out of the red tree thats for sure and put into the same tree as damage to promote trade offs....i could live with them sticking around at a reduced effectiveness if they were moved out of the red tree.

Minno · October 2017

jlboozer wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

jlboozer wrote: »

So you want to replace skills that give both a pvp and pve advantage with skills that only give a pvp advantage.....no thanks!

If you actually read you would see most of them do have pve advantages...

I did read and 3 out of 5 are pvp buffs only....2 out of 5 isn't most bud!

currently 4 out of 5 directly impact pvp not pve. Yes you probably are dodge rolling out of reds, but with a 10k stam pool you can do this a few times in a row and not expect a crowd control like you do in pvp.

his changes give you:
- better loot chance in pve,
- AOE dmg reduction
- gives extra max resources on the rezee after a rez
- increased time/power on potion effects.

Azurya · October 2017

and there we go again

the next NERF thread is here!

NB wrecked, bows good for nothing
stamina builds so much off
and
now he wants tanks to be killable

and then, what you need more??????

Asmael · October 2017

Azurya wrote: »

and there we go again

the next NERF thread is here!

NB wrecked, bows good for nothing
stamina builds so much off
and
now he wants tanks to be killable

and then, what you need more??????

@Azurya Prob 'cause you missed:

the thought here, again right or wrong, is with these changes ZOS could probably revert quite a few of the class based nerfs they have done over the last two years without hurting the games balance.

Devs very rarely revert changes they made - especially on a scale as big as the ones done in ESO. Even if I'd prefer to see power diverted from the CP system to classes, not gonna hide that my expectations on this happening are around nil.

Azurya · October 2017

@Asmael
anyone at Hodor trial grp still running a Stamblade with bow?

well there is your answer

RinaldoGandolphi · October 2017

@Joy_Division

I am not disagreeing with what you are saying. Your certainly right, power creep is a big problem in this game.

olsborg · October 2017

Agree wholeheartedly except dodgeroll cost, with how squishy medium armor is, they need to be able to dodgeroll as much as they can atm, even that makes it hard atm.

jlboozer · October 2017

Minno wrote: »

jlboozer wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

jlboozer wrote: »

So you want to replace skills that give both a pvp and pve advantage with skills that only give a pvp advantage.....no thanks!

If you actually read you would see most of them do have pve advantages...

I did read and 3 out of 5 are pvp buffs only....2 out of 5 isn't most bud!

currently 4 out of 5 directly impact pvp not pve. Yes you probably are dodge rolling out of reds, but with a 10k stam pool you can do this a few times in a row and not expect a crowd control like you do in pvp.

his changes give you:
- better loot chance in pve,
- AOE dmg reduction
- gives extra max resources on the rezee after a rez
- increased time/power on potion effects.

We already have a AOE reduction cp passive and better dungeon loot drops is a crap trade off for reduced block, also increased potion effects could cause even more issues

Minno · October 2017

jlboozer wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

jlboozer wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

jlboozer wrote: »

So you want to replace skills that give both a pvp and pve advantage with skills that only give a pvp advantage.....no thanks!

If you actually read you would see most of them do have pve advantages...

I did read and 3 out of 5 are pvp buffs only....2 out of 5 isn't most bud!

currently 4 out of 5 directly impact pvp not pve. Yes you probably are dodge rolling out of reds, but with a 10k stam pool you can do this a few times in a row and not expect a crowd control like you do in pvp.

his changes give you:
- better loot chance in pve,
- AOE dmg reduction
- gives extra max resources on the rezee after a rez
- increased time/power on potion effects.

We already have a AOE reduction cp passive and better dungeon loot drops is a crap trade off for reduced block, also increased potion effects could cause even more issues

i think the argument is that the aoe reduction would be moved to green tree to promote choices in different trees (and further split some of the choices so you need to invest across a broader spectrum).

loot drops replacing block can be a separate discussion but block is overperforming in PVP so much that you can increase your total mitigation by 10% just for pressing the right mouse button and for hardly any cost if built right. Any suggestion that solves pvp block overperforming without harming pve is very much welcome (but im worried its slowly coming to another pve block nerf.)

potion power/duration is directly countered by siphoner (at least for regen); this would match the original intent for the CP system having stars that counter each other and further makes sense if siphoner can also decrease potion power on your target.

Qbiken · October 2017

Well written post, I don´t agree on everything but well written

Have an insightful

Vaoh · October 2017

Joy_Division wrote: »

I see what you are trying to accomplish here, but I think the problems in this game go far beyond "unkillable tanks" and the proposed changes to the CP system will just make things worse.

If you listen to Drac's latest podcast, they tell you why they run Plague Doctor: because damage is out of control and it the only way to survive long enough to accomplish anything in the first place. They are right. Nothing happens in a vacuum. I used to run drinks, damage oriented light armor gear, and rely on my class skills to compete. Can't do that anymore. Power-creep is too strong, class skills nerfed into the ground, you're dead if you don't go sword and shield blockcasting BoL or abusing things like Resto ultimate.

I am amazed - amazed - at how quickly a lot of my "fights" end in like 10 seconds even against max CP players and I play a templar that isn't even built for damage. Most of the people you run into in Cyrodiil are the very opposite of "unkillable," they're unsurvivable against experienced players who know what they are doing.

If I did not have Shadow-Ward, Warlord, and Tumbling, I would uninstall the game because trying to stay alive on a class that has no more blinding flashes, no more useful class shield, no more CC, no more major mending, etc., would be nothing but an exercise in frustration. Sorcs and NBs would be the only magicka classes worth a crap because while they couldn't defend themselves very well either, your proposed changes do nothing to effect shield stacking and at least they have a shot at escape.

Another thing that nobody ever considers when complaining about the CP system is that ZoS nerfed many of the base costs into the game and put that power into the Champion System. So under your proposal, it would be relatively more expensive to dodge, block, bash, etc., than it was in 1.5 and this isn't even considering the further nerfs ZoS implemented into these mechanics because of the CP system in the first place (scaling dodge-roll costs, no stam return on blocks, increase frequency of stam costs to blocking, etc.). It would be much more cost prohibitive to use these basic techniques to survive. Oh, and there are no more soft caps, classes are nerfed to the ground, damage is sky-high. So uninstall the game if you don't spec for pure troll/cancer tank or suicide gank build. And even then uninstall the game after a few weeks of monotony.

You need to remove the CP system root and branch in addition to returning all the power stolen from our classes to have the sort of impact you're looking for. Yes, I know Zos is never going to do that. But removing only part of the CP power and doing nothing else is only going to exacerbate the many issues with the system.

It sounds so depressing but it’s 100% true.

NordSwordnBoard · October 2017

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

...defense mechanics should buy time, not make you into a titanium fortress...

I wonder what new pvpers think when they see a decent small group rip through resources, keeps, and other groups, - then wail on a single troll tank for what seems like an eternity.

WaltherCarraway · October 2017

Nerf Dragonknight thread by beating the dead permablock horse...