If you pull below 15k dps you are not a dd maybe a tank in bad gear or a master role player, but not a real dd. (only excuse is you are a new player with little cp and know one has ever told you how this game works since the ingame tutorial is really crap)

For max cp player

• 15-20k you are a bad dd
• 25-30k you are an okish dd
• 30-35k good dd
• 35+k "there were mechanics in this dungeon" dd

15k was the number I was always told to aim for before even attempting Veterans.

Thunderknuckles wrote: »

To be fair, one thing that a LOT of new players, even after getting to CP160+, aren't aware of at all is that to get your DPS up very high you have to animation cancel. No other MMO in existence, that I'm aware of at least, uses this mechanic and it's a completely foreign concept to new players. So it's not entirely their fault that they may be pulling low dps. To say that they're trolling by doing 15K or less is offensively arrogant and ignorant.

This. Without animation canceling or an extremely practiced rotation, 8-15k DPS is the normal sustained single-target DPS for most builds, stam and magicka, that my friends and I have created.

Some of my favorite vet group finder runs have been with new players, and finding a dif way to beat bosses, and how excited everyone is after they learn the mechanics and "win." In many of these groups I end up putting healing on my back bar to help along and DPS with my front bar. (magsorc).

A zerg is fun, but, I don't mind slow runs, at this point if I am doing a dungeon it is because I am looking for something to do, not items or xp. I actually appreciate the challenge.

A funny story is of the nightblade that qued as fake tank, and of course the other 2 people died constantly and I would rez them while the nightblade ran ahead and killed mobs, etc and then at the end he is like I did 62% of the DPS you guys suck!

I think it is one thing to get 30K on a dummy, but another thing in a dungeon, you never know what the variables are, and surviving becomes more important. A dead DD can't DPS. Sometimes as a DD it becomes more important to support heal and help out a new healer.

I'm not sure what DPS numbers I'd like to see. However, I do know that I get extremely frustrated as a tank when the PuG takes at least 10mns to clear trash mobs and 25mns to kill the Winged Twilight boss in *normal* Elden Hollow 2.

I do 15k as a friggen tank in regular v dungeons so.

If you queue as a dd for a vet dungeon you need to know how to play your class and how to get the most dps out of it. Normals are there to train until you get your rotation figured out. I think 20k should be the bare minimum because it's easy to achieve even with non-trials gear and a sub-optimal rotation. Anything less than that just shows that the player is very unknowledgeable about the game and how high dps is achieved.

crobarXIII wrote: »

With these "fake tank" threads popping up, I'll like to now how real tanks feel about "fake dps" in vet dungeons & what the min. dps requirement should be for a DD. As a tank I seen 260 cp with 20k+ dps & also seen 660cp that can't break 10k. personally I feel 15k dps Is enough for most non-dlc vet HM dungeons.

You didnt put an option for "WTF cares?"

Stop whinging, or stop playing. "no one is good enough to play with" pfft.

I usually do 15k dps as a tank.

Know what happens when you're REALLY good at your role? A person will whisper you and ASK for tips. Generally, proffered advice isn't appreciated, so it's usually safer to hold your advice until asked.

I can appreciate the ever-evolving discussion about what the "roles" in dungeons are supposed to do -- what their main function is, what their responsibilities are, who does what and when, etc...

However, that's not what is happening in this discussion. This is something else. Honestly, my impression so far is that everyone just wants to work out the cumulative frustration they've accrued running dungeons with insufferable jerks.

And that's fine. Do that. Let it flow. We all got anger in that department, I'm certain.

Just understand there are a lot of different ways to talk to someone about their build. Very few of them are helpful, and more often than not, those discussions are rarely motivated by good intentions.

In my experience, when someone tries to "help" with my build, they're not trying to help -- they're seeking validation for their past decisions. More often than not, the advice isn't advice, it's narcissistic humble-bragging.

If you engage someone in a discussion about THEIR build and you truly are well-intending and want to help, start your discussion by asking them questions. Ask for their reasons. Maybe you'll get lucky and meet a blank-slate player who welcomes your sage advice because they truly did NOT think too hard about their build. However, 99 times in 100, if you're talking to someone who is at the CP-cap in a veteran dungeon, then that person made their build decisions deliberately, and the degree to which that person is receptive to your advice depends entirely upon your approach.

There's also the remote possibility that their reasons were, in fact, carefully considered and YOU will be humble and receptive enough to learn something new. But that's the rainbow-farting unicorn -- I've yet to meet one. Maniacally egocentric folks battling a variety of insecurities and thus need you to change your thinking to their thinking... ...those are far more common.

So really, at the end of the day, legitimately sincere advice in the form of a friendly discussion where ideas are equally exchanged with a baseline of courtesy and respect are ALWAYS welcome... ...but usually it's best to err on the side of caution and mind your own business.

Unlikely_Ghostbuster wrote: »

Know what happens when you're REALLY good at your role? A person will whisper you and ASK for tips. Generally, proffered advice isn't appreciated, so it's usually safer to hold your advice until asked.

I can appreciate the ever-evolving discussion about what the "roles" in dungeons are supposed to do -- what their main function is, what their responsibilities are, who does what and when, etc...

However, that's not what is happening in this discussion. This is something else. Honestly, my impression so far is that everyone just wants to work out the cumulative frustration they've accrued running dungeons with insufferable jerks.

And that's fine. Do that. Let it flow. We all got anger in that department, I'm certain.

Just understand there are a lot of different ways to talk to someone about their build. Very few of them are helpful, and more often than not, those discussions are rarely motivated by good intentions.

In my experience, when someone tries to "help" with my build, they're not trying to help -- they're seeking validation for their past decisions. More often than not, the advice isn't advice, it's narcissistic humble-bragging.

If you engage someone in a discussion about THEIR build and you truly are well-intending and want to help, start your discussion by asking them questions. Ask for their reasons. Maybe you'll get lucky and meet a blank-slate player who welcomes your sage advice because they truly did NOT think too hard about their build. However, 99 times in 100, if you're talking to someone who is at the CP-cap in a veteran dungeon, then that person made their build decisions deliberately, and the degree to which that person is receptive to your advice depends entirely upon your approach.

There's also the remote possibility that their reasons were, in fact, carefully considered and YOU will be humble and receptive enough to learn something new. But that's the rainbow-farting unicorn -- I've yet to meet one. Maniacally egocentric folks battling a variety of insecurities and thus need you to change your thinking to their thinking... ...those are far more common.

So really, at the end of the day, legitimately sincere advice in the form of a friendly discussion where ideas are equally exchanged with a baseline of courtesy and respect are ALWAYS welcome... ...but usually it's best to err on the side of caution and mind your own business.

TBH. the only type of players I've seen asking questions were legitimately new to the game. These, every now and then, ask about mechanics, about builds and roles in general. Once a player turns vet, or gets to 300cp+, they momentarily become so stubborn and self centered vets with their ass kicking 15k dps, that even a very sound and nicely given advice will trigger them.

The best way is to play with people you know (guild, friends). They usually won't hessitate from volountarily pointing out your mistakes or suggesting strategy improvements (in harsh words more often than not ). It's easier to accept an advice from someone you know than from a complete stranger.

What is a "Fake DPS"? Someone who runs through the dungeon performing emotes?

Steinschlag wrote: »

There is one big Question^^ Would u have a tank u dont need and zero dps and two dds?

Or do u prefer a bad DPS Tank, but DPS, and two DDs. Anyway how much dps the Tank do, 10k, 50k....the run is faster^^ The Grp-DPS should be done by the DDs^^ Tank is only support. I write that as as a tank and Hobby-DD

Please try comparing a Tank+3DD to a 4DD run. Which one will be faster? And that's regarding good groups that don't kite boss all around the room. A typical fake tank will kite it around just as typical DD that finds out the aggro is on him/her.

If I have to drop one role to squeeze some more DPS, I choose the healer. The runs are sooo much smother and satisfying.

You can complete vet dungeons solo, you can complete in three (yesterday's vWS2, someone queued as a tank and the healer left because group didn't kick him, I died only once while doing ~50% of dps on my stamsorc, with the only change being replacing one medium shoulder piece with heavy to get my hp to 16.8k instead of 16.2 plus some additional resistance).

It's not about whether you can complete the dungeon or not. It's really much easier and comfortable to have a full group, and much faster if only the healer is missing.

The most notable thing is that most often people that queue as tanks don't contribute enough DPS to justify that. Anything below 25k and it's a loss with two decent "true" DDs. I'm looking at all the magsorc flawless conquerors that queue as tanks, then do like 18-20k because they have to shield constantly to avoid dying, then mostly heavy attack because they're out of resources XD. It's less of an issue with stamina classes (stamsorc in particular).

PS. If you're a magsorc and want to have a faster group, queue as a healer. Sorcs are good healers. You can easily get 25-30k WHILE healing your team (destro+resto, ele drain, rapid regen, healing springs, orbs, matriarch). Everything without changing basic gear (eg. necro + julianos), attributes or CP. You might want to slot barrier if your group is bad, because it will make them nearly invincible, while you will be able to simply DPS.

Oh, and everyone will be happy. There will be a healer (rather mediocre without further gear/cp changes, but still) a tank (hopefully) and two DDs.

Runefang wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

There's not really such thing as a "fake DPS" in the group finder, because there are only three categories: tank, healer and DPS. If someone knows they aren't a tank or a healer, they have to list themselves as DPS by default.
There is bad DPS, but not "fake" DPS.

The reason people talk about fake healers and tanks is because sometimes people list themselves in those categories just so they don't have to wait in line as a DPS, which means that yes, they are indeed fake healers and tanks.

That's nonsense though. Anybody with vigor can heal somebody, does that make them a bad or fake healer? Anybody with a taunt can tank, are they bad or fake?

Healing with vigor = bad healer, not fake healer.
Anyone with taunth = bad tank, not fake tank
Poor dps = bad dps, not fake dps

However,

No taunt = fake tank
No heals = fake healer
No dedicated dps?? = fake dps (As in, if say a real tank or healer queues as DPS)