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Cast-time abilities suggestion

Maulkin
Maulkin
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Since ZOS combat team seem to be attempting to make unused skills/morphs more used and have been tampering with things again (and been pissing everyone off in the process) I have a suggestion which might seem a bit left field. Make all cast time abilities uninterruptible.

Before you say that's stupid, let me say that I fully agree but allow me to offer some arguments about why it's reasonable. When the game launched, everything that had a cast time was interruptible:
1) Ults (Soul Assault & Rite of Passage)
2) Heavy attacks (ranged or melee)
3) Melee skils (Uppercut, Flurry, Jabs etc)
4) Ranged skills (Snipe, Dark Flare, Crystal Blast etc.)
5) Some Heals or Summons (Sorc pets, Healing Ritual etc.)

...all of the above could be shut down with all interrupting skills like Crushing Shock, Venom Arrow, Deep Breath or a simple bash.

Over time the first 3 out of the above 5 categories have been changed to not be interruptible, as it was decided that being interruptible made them basically unusable. The last two have remained interruptible and are still not used for toffee. It's left them looking rather stupid, especially ranged skills.

For example, why on earth would I ever channel Crystal Blast or (non-proc) Crystal Frags? In PvP, I'd rather use an Inferno staff heavy attack which will do 80% of the damage of hard cast Frags (or Blast), it will return me 1.5k Magicka instead of costing me 4k and won't put it me at risk of being interrupted and paying CC break cost. Even in PvE (which isn't affected that much, hence this thread is here) you'd use Lightning heavy for AoE. I'd have to be brain dead to use Blast or hard-cast Frags. Dark Flare suffers from the same fate and only Snipe sees some rare use only from stealth or from keep walls.

I know the counter argument: It's removing an interesting combat mechanic. Yes, you're right. And that's exactly what was happening when heavy attacks and Soul Assault and Uppercut became uninterruptible yet they went with it anyway. [Snip] me, they even made the ults give CC immunity. But now at least they are being used. Ultimately if those skills prove to be too strong as uninterruptible skills, slightly nerf them, they did that Wrecking Blow for example, no biggie.

But somethings gotta give. Your either make all cast-time skills instant and you nerf them, or you make them uninterruptible cause currently, no skill with cast-time is used in PvP. A whole new class was designed in Morrowind update and guess how many skills with cast time it has. 0. So instead of tweaking here and there, just cut to the core. Cast-time skills are not used in PvP and something gotta change.

PS. Apologies if there has been a similar thread recently, but I couldn't find one when I searched.
Edited by Maulkin on October 27, 2017 10:26AM
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  • Waffennacht
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    The bear has a killer cast time...

    But I would like to see something, but what happens to bash if no interruptions?
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  • Izaki
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    Uninterruptible Dark Deal and Conversion, Jesus Beam, Dark Flare, etc. I don't know whether that's a good idea. And what would be the point of having a bash or interrupt mechanic at all? To stop rezzes? Yeah...

    Bring back interruptible Heavy Attacks.
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  • Solariken
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    Interrupting player-cast abilities should be bash only. Freaking spammable abilities like Crushing Shock and Venom Arrow should not interrupt players IMO.
  • ToRelax
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    I would like if they turned some stuff interruptable again, including heavy attacks and Soul Assault. The only thing I would like to become uninterruptable that afaik still isn't would be Overload heavy attacks.
    Solariken wrote: »
    Interrupting player-cast abilities should be bash only. Freaking spammable abilities like Crushing Shock and Venom Arrow should not interrupt players IMO.

    I think it is good that there are ranged interrupts. Maybe on spammables it's not so great, but it should be cheap and a secondary effect to make it worth running.
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  • Solariken
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    ToRelax wrote: »
    I would like if they turned some stuff interruptable again, including heavy attacks and Soul Assault. The only thing I would like to become uninterruptable that afaik still isn't would be Overload heavy attacks.
    Solariken wrote: »
    Interrupting player-cast abilities should be bash only. Freaking spammable abilities like Crushing Shock and Venom Arrow should not interrupt players IMO.

    I think it is good that there are ranged interrupts. Maybe on spammables it's not so great, but it should be cheap and a secondary effect to make it worth running.

    Sure, ranged interrupts would be fine if that were the primary purpose of the ability and as long as there were no incentive whatsoever to using that ability unless trying to interrupt. There could even be a nice buff/debuff/proc effect granted for a successful interrupt.

    I also agree that everything with a cast/channel should be interruptable but only after passive interrupts are removed from all the spammables.
  • ToRelax
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    Solariken wrote: »
    ToRelax wrote: »
    I would like if they turned some stuff interruptable again, including heavy attacks and Soul Assault. The only thing I would like to become uninterruptable that afaik still isn't would be Overload heavy attacks.
    Solariken wrote: »
    Interrupting player-cast abilities should be bash only. Freaking spammable abilities like Crushing Shock and Venom Arrow should not interrupt players IMO.

    I think it is good that there are ranged interrupts. Maybe on spammables it's not so great, but it should be cheap and a secondary effect to make it worth running.

    Sure, ranged interrupts would be fine if that were the primary purpose of the ability and as long as there were no incentive whatsoever to using that ability unless trying to interrupt. There could even be a nice buff/debuff/proc effect granted for a successful interrupt.

    I also agree that everything with a cast/channel should be interruptable but only after passive interrupts are removed from all the spammables.

    I think you misunderstood a little. I mean it's a good thing that the ranged interrupts are not the primary function of their respective skills, though they don't have to be attached to spammables for that. With the limited bar space in this game, I suspect that if ranged interrupts were only available on skills that don't offer much beside them, they would either be too situational and thus not worth slotting or - if more things were made interruptable and being interrupted by them would have more repercussions - mandatory. Neither outcome would be desirable.
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  • Solariken
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    ToRelax wrote: »
    Solariken wrote: »
    ToRelax wrote: »
    I would like if they turned some stuff interruptable again, including heavy attacks and Soul Assault. The only thing I would like to become uninterruptable that afaik still isn't would be Overload heavy attacks.
    Solariken wrote: »
    Interrupting player-cast abilities should be bash only. Freaking spammable abilities like Crushing Shock and Venom Arrow should not interrupt players IMO.

    I think it is good that there are ranged interrupts. Maybe on spammables it's not so great, but it should be cheap and a secondary effect to make it worth running.

    Sure, ranged interrupts would be fine if that were the primary purpose of the ability and as long as there were no incentive whatsoever to using that ability unless trying to interrupt. There could even be a nice buff/debuff/proc effect granted for a successful interrupt.

    I also agree that everything with a cast/channel should be interruptable but only after passive interrupts are removed from all the spammables.

    I think you misunderstood a little. I mean it's a good thing that the ranged interrupts are not the primary function of their respective skills, though they don't have to be attached to spammables for that. With the limited bar space in this game, I suspect that if ranged interrupts were only available on skills that don't offer much beside them, they would either be too situational and thus not worth slotting or - if more things were made interruptable and being interrupted by them would have more repercussions - mandatory. Neither outcome would be desirable.

    Yeah sorry I did misread that bit. I just don't think passive interrupts should be a thing. Successful interrupts are incredibly strong since it's a guaranteed CC every time and the target becomes mega vulnerable to heavy attack. It's especially frustrating when running a bow build or mageplar and you get locked out of doing anything because some noobstick is gleefully spamming cheap, high-dps Crushing Shocks that also proc status effects.

    It might be a neat idea to change Crushing Shock to have differing ancillary effects based on staff type - frost gets the interrupt and fire/lightning get something else, for example fire deals 10% more damage to burning targets and lightning deals splash damage.
  • Maulkin
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    Izaki wrote: »
    Uninterruptible Dark Deal and Conversion, Jesus Beam, Dark Flare, etc. I don't know whether that's a good idea. And what would be the point of having a bash or interrupt mechanic at all? To stop rezzes? Yeah...

    Bring back interruptible Heavy Attacks.

    Like I said if they were found to be too strong, you tune them down. Bash or interrupt mechanic would still be used in PvE where it’s pretty necessary.

    As for bringing back interruptible heavy attacks... you show me one change that ZOS made that was reverted.
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  • DeHei
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    I really like this idea, because its allready very difficult to play with casttime/channeled abilities :)
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  • gabriebe
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    I think 3) should go back to interruptible.
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  • Maulkin
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    Solariken wrote: »
    Interrupting player-cast abilities should be bash only. Freaking spammable abilities like Crushing Shock and Venom Arrow should not interrupt players IMO.

    I think that would be kind of a minimum requirement. Otherwise they end up not being used at all. There's no safe distance to start casting Dark Flare cause someone can interrupt you from the same distance with a Crushing Shock or Venom Arrow. At least if it's only bash or melee range interrupts, then it means you can use these skills when in range.
    Solariken wrote: »
    It might be a neat idea to change Crushing Shock to have differing ancillary effects based on staff type - frost gets the interrupt and fire/lightning get something else, for example fire deals 10% more damage to burning targets and lightning deals splash damage.

    I think it's useful that it stays an interrupt but maybe only against NPCs or Monsters. There are already skills that treat players and mobs differently, like Negate that stuns Monsters but only silences players. So they could make it that Crushing Shock interrupts monsters but provides a different effect against players depending on the staff or just a generic one. Same with Venom Arrow.

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  • SodanTok
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    Imo cast time abilities should not be interruptable (not even with bash). By nature of cast time, they are already giving opponent time to perform any defensive action to negate most if not all damage.

    What should be interruptible are all channel skills including melee and ultimate skills. Maybe for sake of balance maybe make melee skills not CC you when bashed, only just stop casting. These skills already do damage/debuff at the start so defense against them is already far weaker than defense against cast time. On top of it, some of them are even countering critical defenses like dodge. Not to forget that CC to channel exists while CC to cast time or cast time to CC still gives opponent enough time to react.

    Dark deal and similar defensive abilities are I guess special case, since bar hard CC there is nothing but bash to counter them.

    That is just my opinion. In any case, making all cast time abilities uninterruptable would not make them more popular. There is still no reward for landing them. At least for the ranged ones. Giving opponent that much time to react (cast time + flight) and giving dodge to pick any part of this time to fully dodge the effect is just too much.

    So bar removing Miat, another thing that would make cast time abilities better to use would be if people couldn't not dodge them before they are actually in flight. That would move the possibility to land then in combo with some CC from never (or during stealth) to at least every 8-10s or how long cc immunity is.
    Even better if enemy has to actually be in dodge roll animation (or have the short post dodge window) during the landing.
    Edited by SodanTok on October 27, 2017 11:30AM
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  • cschwingeb14_ESO
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    Other games have dedicated interrupt abilities, but then they have to be like block or dodge roll, not on the ability gcd. Those other games also have powerful cast time abilities, that don't have a non-cast time counterpart. IE bashing and interrupts would be very important if all big heals had a cast time. Pretty sure no one wants that.

    ESO does a couple PvP things badly: cast time vs interrupt is one. Kite vs counter kite is the other. Both are a result of not having cooldowns.

    I don't see a good way to fix those lacking mechanics while keeping the non cooldown basis of the game

  • technohic
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    I want the other way around. Interruptable but undodgeable, unreflectable, and stagger blockers. Then make dive a cast. Only exception I would make would be melee attacks. They would still be uninterruptable.
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  • Maulkin
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    technohic wrote: »
    I want the other way around. Interruptable but undodgeable, unreflectable, and stagger blockers. Then make dive a cast. Only exception I would make would be melee attacks. They would still be uninterruptable.

    I don't think dodge roll or Dragon Scales need any more counters than already exist.
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  • technohic
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    Maulkin wrote: »
    technohic wrote: »
    I want the other way around. Interruptable but undodgeable, unreflectable, and stagger blockers. Then make dive a cast. Only exception I would make would be melee attacks. They would still be uninterruptable.

    I don't think dodge roll or Dragon Scales need any more counters than already exist.

    They’re already there. Idea is to make a counter to those by making them at least casts that can be interrupted
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  • Baconlad
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    This smells like a nerf dark flare thread. XD

    So no...im gonna have to dissagree.

    Melee cast time abilities are still interuptable by CC, and to have them bashable means theyd never get used...not to mention you would completely shut down all possibilities of stamplar/ magplar dealing damage. As for dark flare, if you make that uniteruptable you have to lower the damage, making it a much weaker skill. The problem with dark flare isnt that it can be interuptable, but dodgeable. If you dodge while im still casting flare, im going to miss that flare, would be better for me just to cancel cast and recast. And i like that it has those counters. honestly it should it, hits hard as hell. And i dont want to see the skill lose potential damage, i just managed 27k tooltip with 10k spell pen and 60% crit. Thats 48k self buffed on a PvE target. If i had spell power cure and continuous attack...OMG it would be in the 30k tooltip range...i do not want to see a PvP nerf to that.

    Its counterable for a reason, if you dobt counter it, you die. I wrecked a 60k blazing shield templar the otherday in three casts of flare, a javelin and radiant destruction, he thought he didnt have to counter it...

    I hit a poor magsorc who accually did block it...for 7k...through hit fire staff block...wrecked

    Im squish as *** though, literally built like an assassin in heroes of the storm, if you look at me im dead
  • DeHei
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    The problem at TESO is, that this abilities with casttime or channeled ones are not powerful. Most of them are less powerful then similar ones without casttime! They should be much stronger, then i could accept this point of interupt..
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  • ak_pvp
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    Make all of the above aside from melee skills interruptable. This style of uncounterable changes are what is ruining PvP.

    Add a new mechanic where bashing melee skills (Wb and jabs only atm) would set them off balance but not stop the damage. And bashing someone offbalance should stun them. (Makes sense when hitting an off balance target, heavy attacks stun, have time but are free. Bash costs, but are instant.) That would be the trade off from being melee.

    Maybe make WB and jabs immune completely. Every other channel should be stronger, but interruptable.
    Edited by ak_pvp on October 29, 2017 10:24AM
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  • Maulkin
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    DeHei wrote: »
    The problem at TESO is, that this abilities with casttime or channeled ones are not powerful. Most of them are less powerful then similar ones without casttime! They should be much stronger, then i could accept this point of interupt..

    Well, some of them are much stronger, but that's not enough. For example, Dark Flare has twice the base damage of Force Pulse (never mind Crushing Shock) and it also has an 6" AoE Defile and Empowers the next attack. Hard to argue that's not much much stronger.

    Yet Crushing Shock/Force Pulse sees use in PvP, but Dark Flare doesn't. The risk of interruption is too high so barely anyone uses it. And apart from that, the casting time is a long warning to everyone that doesn't have a ranged interrupt to either block or dodge or shield up. Same as with any other cast-time ranged attack.

    And obviously any interruptable cast-time ability, cannot even be attempted at melee range due to bash interrupt, so that excludes near 100% of the fights in PvP. And that's not even a completely *** statistic. There are 5 classes with 2 different configurations (mag/stam) so 10 different types of enemies that you'll meet. From these, only mag Sorcs are truly ranged and maybe half of the mag NBs (the others will use Concealed Weapon, Fear, Soul Harvest and stay in melee range). The chance that in every fight there will be at least one melee build in opposition that will get in your face as soon as they realise you're a magplar (i.e. strong healer) is near on 100%. So why slot a skill that you can't use in combat?

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  • technohic
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    Maulkin wrote: »
    DeHei wrote: »
    The problem at TESO is, that this abilities with casttime or channeled ones are not powerful. Most of them are less powerful then similar ones without casttime! They should be much stronger, then i could accept this point of interupt..

    Well, some of them are much stronger, but that's not enough. For example, Dark Flare has twice the base damage of Force Pulse (never mind Crushing Shock) and it also has an 6" AoE Defile and Empowers the next attack. Hard to argue that's not much much stronger.

    Yet Crushing Shock/Force Pulse sees use in PvP, but Dark Flare doesn't. The risk of interruption is too high so barely anyone uses it. And apart from that, the casting time is a long warning to everyone that doesn't have a ranged interrupt to either block or dodge or shield up. Same as with any other cast-time ranged attack.

    And obviously any interruptable cast-time ability, cannot even be attempted at melee range due to bash interrupt, so that excludes near 100% of the fights in PvP. And that's not even a completely *** statistic. There are 5 classes with 2 different configurations (mag/stam) so 10 different types of enemies that you'll meet. From these, only mag Sorcs are truly ranged and maybe half of the mag NBs (the others will use Concealed Weapon, Fear, Soul Harvest and stay in melee range). The chance that in every fight there will be at least one melee build in opposition that will get in your face as soon as they realise you're a magplar (i.e. strong healer) is near on 100%. So why slot a skill that you can't use in combat?

    I never chose not to slot dark flare because it’s interruptible because if I am using it; it’s at range and there r ally is not a ton of crushing shock being used or the other morph of venom arrow. Even if they were; interrupted at range is no big deal. It doesn’t get used as much because it’s hard to land.

    As a Templar; I’m really trying to figure out the logic of wanting to make flare uninterruptible to have still miss often yet wanting to make jabs/sweeps at least bashable and nerfed in some way. As if it is in an amazing state right now. Sounds like the people coming up with this idea think like the rest of the people who work at ZOS. That would be awful
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  • DeHei
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    Maulkin wrote: »
    DeHei wrote: »
    The problem at TESO is, that this abilities with casttime or channeled ones are not powerful. Most of them are less powerful then similar ones without casttime! They should be much stronger, then i could accept this point of interupt..

    Well, some of them are much stronger, but that's not enough. For example, Dark Flare has twice the base damage of Force Pulse (never mind Crushing Shock) and it also has an 6" AoE Defile and Empowers the next attack. Hard to argue that's not much much stronger.

    Yet Crushing Shock/Force Pulse sees use in PvP, but Dark Flare doesn't. The risk of interruption is too high so barely anyone uses it. And apart from that, the casting time is a long warning to everyone that doesn't have a ranged interrupt to either block or dodge or shield up. Same as with any other cast-time ranged attack.

    And obviously any interruptable cast-time ability, cannot even be attempted at melee range due to bash interrupt, so that excludes near 100% of the fights in PvP. And that's not even a completely *** statistic. There are 5 classes with 2 different configurations (mag/stam) so 10 different types of enemies that you'll meet. From these, only mag Sorcs are truly ranged and maybe half of the mag NBs (the others will use Concealed Weapon, Fear, Soul Harvest and stay in melee range). The chance that in every fight there will be at least one melee build in opposition that will get in your face as soon as they realise you're a magplar (i.e. strong healer) is near on 100%. So why slot a skill that you can't use in combat?

    Especially dark flare isnt strong. This skill dont deal much more damage then other skills without this casttime and i cant use a light attack together with this skill... since morrowind light and heavy attacks were going to be important for damage. Dark flare isnt doing the damage.
    With casttime and the delay time to hit the target, you maybe can make a good burstcombo in PvP for example, but thats all. Everybody is hearing this skill and has many time to dodge it or activate a reflective ability..
    We have only fast fights in TESO, so in my opinion we need fast skills. I dont have a problem with delaytime to reach the target, but a casttime with slow movement isnt good together with no damage possibility from light attacks..
    Its only frustrating and 20% more directdamage is one of the worst buffs a templar can have.. We nearly dont have direct damage skills..
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  • Baconlad
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    As ive said before the issue with dark flare isnt the cast time or being uninteruptable...its that it can be dodged blocked so friggin easy...wait a second...dark flare takes skill, the right situation, the right timeframe to be used. Only the best make great use of it as a main spammable in 1v1 situations. Sure the more friendlies you have the easier it is to land on a unsuspecting target in a sea of enemies. Which is why so many magplars use it from behind friendlies.

    I do not want to see this skill changed...at all...the damage potential feels amazing. I dont want to lose that. If you lack the skill to figure out how to use it 1v1 than dont use it. Leave it to those who can. Ive done plenty of open world duels 1v1 where the enemy thinks that because im just spam casting flare i must not know what im doing, its sustained burst potebtial that im throwing down, im expecting you to try and block, try and dodge roll or reflect (which is for me...the worst counter for me to deal with...). Im expecting you to charge into me...then get thrown up by volcanic rune, get smacked by one or two flares and thats all it takes. Its accually very hard to counter 100% of the time if its being spam casted on you, only wardens with the absorb, and dks with wings give me really hard times in duels. Sorcs are cannon fodder, nightblades....can be difficult, magplars dont know what to do with me, and stamina builds get wrecked, unless shuffle saves them
  • DeHei
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    Baconlad wrote: »
    As ive said before the issue with dark flare isnt the cast time or being uninteruptable...its that it can be dodged blocked so friggin easy...wait a second...dark flare takes skill, the right situation, the right timeframe to be used. Only the best make great use of it as a main spammable in 1v1 situations. Sure the more friendlies you have the easier it is to land on a unsuspecting target in a sea of enemies. Which is why so many magplars use it from behind friendlies.

    I do not want to see this skill changed...at all...the damage potential feels amazing. I dont want to lose that. If you lack the skill to figure out how to use it 1v1 than dont use it. Leave it to those who can. Ive done plenty of open world duels 1v1 where the enemy thinks that because im just spam casting flare i must not know what im doing, its sustained burst potebtial that im throwing down, im expecting you to try and block, try and dodge roll or reflect (which is for me...the worst counter for me to deal with...). Im expecting you to charge into me...then get thrown up by volcanic rune, get smacked by one or two flares and thats all it takes. Its accually very hard to counter 100% of the time if its being spam casted on you, only wardens with the absorb, and dks with wings give me really hard times in duels. Sorcs are cannon fodder, nightblades....can be difficult, magplars dont know what to do with me, and stamina builds get wrecked, unless shuffle saves them

    I cant acceppt any skills in this game with casttime. The fights are too dynamic and fast for skills like that... Dark flare is not very useful in most situations, but from skills with casttime it is one of the most popular skills. After knowing that, ZOS need to know, that there is somrthing wrong with these skills!
    Just the casttime turn them to be useless.. Lets thing about the other morph of dark flare, maybe ZOS is thinking "yeah we buffed it." but in real its also useless.
    Other skills with casttime have a similar problematic, just because of the casttime. I cant understand guys, who say something like "that isnt a problem".. like i allready said, since Morrowind we need to sustain everything in a build. Skills with casttime dont allow to do light or heavyattacks like instantskills, but the most of them dont do anything better in some way.

    When i deal 10k Damage with force pulse and 5k damage with 1 light attack, i deal 15k damage total and thats more then i would deal with 1 dark flare. Now say me reasons why i should use it so?
    Another thing, radiant oppression (i know the calculation is bugged and to low), but when i deal more damage with dots, why i should use it? My highest oppressiontick was around 40k AND it should be a finisher? My common damage without it is around 36k, so i really have trouble to use this skill... It needs to do much more damage for a channeled finisher to be a great option again for good DDs...
    Beyond Infinity - PC/EU
    DeHei - AD Magicka Templar Allrounder
    Psycotronix - DC Stamina Dragonknight
    De Freez - DC Magicka Warden
    De Hei(Youtube)
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