Why is the ESO community against nerfs?

Marto · October 2017

That is an honest question.

As someone that quite enjoys the math, the calculations and the numbers behind this game's combat, as well as someone that understands (or at least I hope I do) the nuances and difficulties of game development, I agree wholeheartedly with the overall design philosophy that ZOS is going for.

Buffs are dangerous, specially in a game like ESO. They have a very meaningful chance to increase the ammount of bugs and exploits in the game tenfold. And that is without mentioning the issue of power creep. I can very easily see that ZOS is not a studio that designs by accretion. They want all content to have its place in this game, doesn't matter if the content was developed in 2014 or 2017, they're looking for a unified design. The opposite of something like, say, Warframe, where the "BiS" keeps changing every patch because of the introduction of stronger and stronger weapon tiers every patch.

Nerfs, on the contrast, are a much safer bet. They prevent the game from gettng too easy (You know, like the groups that could run veteran dungeons every 5 minutes, back in the Homestead Patch). They have a much smaller risk of creating new bugs and exploits, since the developers are changing less variables, and it, over time, creates way better build diversity, since it leaves most sets alone, for the most part, allowing them to rise in effectiveness when stronger counterparts get nerfed. Sets like Silks of the Sun only became viable when the overperforming Burning Spellweave was nerfed, so it would work effectively on DKs (It's intended wearers) as opposed to working perfectly with every class.

So I feel ZOS is going in the right direction. Whenever I see build guides and the brilliant analysis of people like GilliamTheRogue, DPS numbers go up and up every single patch, wthout actually being that overwhelming. With the introduction of the Lover mundus stone, the overall effectiveness of the must-have Twin-Fang-Snake becomes lesser, allowing sets like Automaton and Hunding's Rage to rise.

There are things that I disagree with, don't get me wrong. My overall assessment of the balance team is that, if they are given 6 months to conceptualize and build a balanced meta, they can, but if given 1 month to fix minor issues, they will overnerf/overbuff. I disagree with the choice of allowing the CP cap to raise every single patch, since having a never-ending source of powercreep is never healthy for a game like this. I do think some nerfs were over the board this last patch, specifically Shadow and Thief nerfs, both being outmatched by Warrior.

But I honestly feel this community has a irrational fear of nerfs, with no rhyme or reason.

But maybe I am wrong. And if I am, I'd like to know how. So let me know what you think, guys.

redspecter23 · October 2017

I enjoy getting better or at least staying the same from update to update. When my relative power level compared to the content I'm playing goes down on a regular basis over the course of a year or longer it depreciates any character advancement I've been working towards over that time period. Yes, some nerfs are necessary, but an overall depowering across the board over a long stretch of time will have a negative mental effect on players making them realize that any progress they are making is simply being stripped away faster than it can be attained. That is never a good feeling for your playerbase.

VaranisArano · October 2017

In a game where you have all your necessary skills and max level gear at CP 160 and the progression to CP 660 is very gradual, progression is mostly measured in terms of BIS gear and rotations.

So a nerf to gear, set bonuses, traits, and skills means players have to (or feel they have to) scramble to get whatever the new BIS gear and meta build is. This scramble and grind for new gear is how ZOS keeps us playing. THey simply can't produce enough content to keep up with the rate at which players complete new content, so the only way to keep us going is to make us run in the hamster wheel of trying to get the best gear and traits.

The endless changes and nerfs that make us want to abandon perfectly viable builds in order to chase the meta is meant to make us unhappy with our current builds so that we'll chase something new and better. The whole thing where players have to deal with the disappointment of their builds no longer working as well as when they first built them is a feature of how ZOS runs progression in this game, not a bug. All those players who felt they had to grind gear after HotR, all those tanks making a replacement for Tava's, etc. All those players will now play the game more in order to get back to their top spot, just how ZOS wants it.

We as a community are unhappy with the nerfs because ZOS doesn't want us to happy with our builds. ZOS wants us to constantly be chasing after the carrot on the end of the stick that is BIS gear and meta builds that change with every major patch so that we keep playing the game, grinding out dungeon after dungeon in a hamster wheel race that never ends.

So why does the community hate and fear nerfs? We want that carrot and we fear that with every major patch it'll be our prized build that gets taken away and we have to chase the carrot again in order to feel satisfied with our build again...for a time. And that? That's how ZOS wants it. Because chasing the carrot keeps players in the game.

Korah_Eaglecry · October 2017

Honestly? It falls into two mindsets.

1.) Individuals know something is broken and not working the right way, or is massively OP compared to anything else that is comparable. And so they wish to prevent the nerf with outcry masquerading as ZOS unjustly targeting them due to "whiners".

2.) ZOS being a bit heavy handed and ignoring well thought out and civilized discussion that reflects ZOS choice being unnecessary or overzealous.

What you end up with is bandwagoners that might not really see any impact by this that will jump onboard because nerfs is bad mmmm'kay?

CyrusArya · October 2017

Simply put, no one wants to log on to a class that is weaker than it was the day before. At the core, thats the main reason. But there are others.

Sometimes a nerf is necessary. I have plenty of bias, but I like to assess and process situations objectively. Its necessary I find (in game or irl) to maintain objectivity- so that you don't end up fooling yourself. When sorc shields were cut down to 6 seconds, I applauded it. When heavy was nerfed, I applauded it. When the Morrowind sustain nerfs were announced, I applauded it. Even tho I used these mechanics, I welcomed their nerfs because I saw them as being the right course of action. Each and every time people cried, of my own class and play style. Each and every time I told em to suck it up and adapt. And they did.

The frustration and anger comes when changes are made without being well thought out or for arbitrary reasons. This nerf to crystal frags? Unnecessary. Nerf to fossilize? Unnecessary. Nerf to Purge? Unnecessary. Nerf to Fear? Unnecessary. These things weren't nerfed cus they were overperforming. No, they were nerfed to make the alternative choices more lucrative in comparison. That is just beyond lazy and disappointing design philosophy.

I have been a strong supporter of ZOS and always defended them when they were in the right against the rabid throngs of "the sky is falling" type players. But in this patch cycle, while I applaud the changes to heavy armor, I simply cannot get over the fact that they are gutting fundamental class skills because they were too lazy to make the lame morphs more desirable. And all of this is compounded by the fact that this company is so extremely disengaged and negligent of the player base as of late.

Koolio · October 2017

I like fighting multiple people at the same time.

I want the difficulty to come from the skill and knowledge of the other players. Not because the tools in my kit are weaker than they were before.

Every day PVP should be harder and harder because your opponent should know more and more.

Not because you get weaker and weaker.

Nestor · October 2017

ZOS has the numbers that we don't. They know what the skills are doing in a macro sense, they know how many times they are used, they know how many times they are countered etc etc etc. They have the information they need to ascertain the balance or lack there of.

Then there is power creep, if everything is buffed to make it balance, then content becomes a sneeze fest, sneeze on the keyboard and everything in PvE dies.Which is one of the reasons I have always said that PvE skills need to be separated, completely, from PvP skills. It would give the devs more freedom to Buff or Nerf as they see fit.

Anywhoo...

They have to do Nerfs, as they don't really have a choice to go to buffs. Thing is, most all the nerfs that affected my characters only required small changes to the build to get back to where I was before. But, I don't play on the bleeding edge, as I understand the Myth of the Meta.

It also keeps the game fresh to an extent, as people who do chase the bleeding edge, have to re-gear or rethink their rotations. I can see how that sucks for some people, but the alternative would be just as distasteful, doing the same thing month in and month out.

Malmai · October 2017

Nerfs are just showing that they dont want to think that much. They rather throw some crown store items and some dlcs to grab...

Koolio · October 2017

Nestor wrote: »

ZOS has the numbers that we don't. They know what the skills are doing in a macro sense, they know how many times they are used, they know how many times they are countered etc etc etc. They have the information they need to ascertain the balance or lack there of.

Then there is power creep, if everything is buffed to make it balance, then content becomes a sneeze fest, sneeze on the keyboard and everything in PvE dies.Which is one of the reasons I have always said that PvE skills need to be separated, completely, from PvP skills. It would give the devs more freedom to Buff or Nerf as they see fit.

Anywhoo...

They have to do Nerfs, as they don't really have a choice to go to buffs. Thing is, most all the nerfs that affected my characters only required small changes to the build to get back to where I was before. But, I don't play on the bleeding edge, as I understand the Myth of the Meta.

It also keeps the game fresh to an extent, as people who do chase the bleeding edge, have to re-gear or rethink their rotations. I can see how that sucks for some people, but the alternative would be just as distasteful, doing the same thing month in and month out.

So why not add to the game (like mechanics more adds more difficulties) instead of take from the player?

Runefang · October 2017

Because a lot of other MMOs ask players to run a race to get to the current meta. Then they change the meta by upping gear tiers, skill limits, levels etc. Then they ask players to run a 'new' race to get to the latest meta. Players don't feel like they're going backwards, just forwards. And they are in many ways as they can now solo content that could only be done by 12 players previously.

ESO, as you've said, wants to keep all content relevant (a fantastic idea) which means you don't get to run a new race to a new meta where you're more powerful than ever. You feel like you're running the same race over and over again.

Emmagoldman · October 2017

I think some people dont seperate their toon from them the self. They develop a feeling of power, uniqueness, confidence and accomplishment through a toon when its lacking irl. When those other aspects are present in life, and those needs are fulfilled, if you die, whatever, life is good. You still might have some emotion if you are competitive but you wont be rage quitting and feeling hurt

So the nerf, which makes sense to someone who can depersonalize their toon may just be as simple as a math problem while for the other an attack on the self. You will not make ME weaker, you are going after MY abilities. Life sucks and i have control here! Theres a feeling like if someone is taking your car away. I understand if someone looks at the numbers and is frustrated that the data seems out of place but too often its personalized which is pretty sad

Nestor · October 2017

Koolio wrote: »

So why not add to the game (like mechanics more adds more difficulties) instead of take from the player?

That is what they do for power creep, but then the balance becomes, what about the new player?

I would not want to balance a game like this and try to keep 80% of the people happy. Note I did not say all the people happy, a challenge is one thing, impossible is something else.....

Motherball · October 2017

VaranisArano wrote: »

In a game where you have all your necessary skills and max level gear at CP 160 and the progression to CP 660 is very gradual, progression is mostly measured in terms of BIS gear and rotations.

So a nerf to gear, set bonuses, traits, and skills means players have to (or feel they have to) scramble to get whatever the new BIS gear and meta build is. This scramble and grind for new gear is how ZOS keeps us playing. THey simply can't produce enough content to keep up with the rate at which players complete new content, so the only way to keep us going is to make us run in the hamster wheel of trying to get the best gear and traits.

The endless changes and nerfs that make us want to abandon perfectly viable builds in order to chase the meta is meant to make us unhappy with our current builds so that we'll chase something new and better. The whole thing where players have to deal with the disappointment of their builds no longer working as well as when they first built them is a feature of how ZOS runs progression in this game, not a bug. All those players who felt they had to grind gear after HotR, all those tanks making a replacement for Tava's, etc. All those players will now play the game more in order to get back to their top spot, just how ZOS wants it.

We as a community are unhappy with the nerfs because ZOS doesn't want us to happy with our builds. ZOS wants us to constantly be chasing after the carrot on the end of the stick that is BIS gear and meta builds that change with every major patch so that we keep playing the game, grinding out dungeon after dungeon in a hamster wheel race that never ends.

So why does the community hate and fear nerfs? We want that carrot and we fear that with every major patch it'll be our prized build that gets taken away and we have to chase the carrot again in order to feel satisfied with our build again...for a time. And that? That's how ZOS wants it. Because chasing the carrot keeps players in the game.

I feel what you are saying. Having only been playing for a short while, I can only comment from a more outsider perspective when I say that what you are talking about with the gear treadmill and BiS and the carrot is that it is likely more player-induced than developer conspiracy. It sounds like the devs are trying to make more gear and abilities viable so that the stats wont matter quite so much and more players are able to participate in more content.

The way I see it is, the devs nerf something to try and balance it and the players find and cling to one set or build and some players get excluded. So then the devs nerf something else in hopes of more diversity, but instead the players form and cling to a different meta, thus once again alienating and excluding players based on statistics.

I get it, most players want to be the very best possible, and they want to surround themselves with the best players so they can progress more efficiently. Maybe if there was more cooperation and less competition among players then there wouldnt have to be so many nerfs and dumbing things down to achieve “balance.”

Amadis001 · October 2017

The vast majority of nerfs have been to try to better balance PvP. I dislike these nerfs because they negatively impact my enjoyment of the PvE game in order to fix someone else's PvP game. And the nerfs are never incremental. They are always nerfing my favorite skills and gear into total uselessness. I would be totally happy if they stop. Or they can start balancing PvP separately from PvE. But leave me alone to play the game, please.

DHale · October 2017

I have played the game for over three years. There has not been one nerf that made the game better. To the ppl that played since pc launch we are a fraction of the power we are now. I could do content than now takes an hour in minutes. Makes grinding boring and no bueno. It also encourages people to stay bad at the game rather than using thier builds, skill, and to think about what they doing. I did normal crypt of hearts 2 yesterday after like 30 plus deaths I just left them dead and killed the bosses myself for the last several bosses.

NyassaV · October 2017

redspecter23 wrote: »

I enjoy getting better or at least staying the same from update to update. When my relative power level compared to the content I'm playing goes down on a regular basis over the course of a year or longer it depreciates any character advancement I've been working towards over that time period. Yes, some nerfs are necessary, but an overall depowering across the board over a long stretch of time will have a negative mental effect on players making them realize that any progress they are making is simply being stripped away faster than it can be attained. That is never a good feeling for your playerbase.

This is spot on. I did vMA for a Maelstorm 2H to use on a stamblead for the weapon damage, not the enchant effect then CWC notes came out and I basically ripped my hair out

Nebthet78 · October 2017

Nerfs in this game have had the overhelming result of locking me out of content that I had been able to do prior to it and taking away what little progress I have been able to make despite my disability that holds me back from being able to have a reaction time the same as most people or even be able to animation cancel.

When you start locking people out of content they were having fun doing, they tend to get very uphappy with a game and leave. As a result, I've been taking a hell of a lot of breaks from this game and no longer sub, nor spend money on Crown. I haven't even purchased the last DLC.

kevlarto_ESO · October 2017

some cheater or exploiter is afraid they might fix something that fixes their exploit or cheat and they have to play like the everyone else with out that advantage they have got used to, because using cheats and exploits takes away any skill you might have gained playing the game the proper way, so now they have to l2p.

SoLooney · October 2017

cause 90perc of balance changes have to do something with nerfs. everything gets weaker to lower the ceiling and also the fact that ZOS refuses to keep pve and pvp balance separate.
if pvp ppl QQ over something, it gets nerfed and pve usually gets shafted because of that.

so yea, thats why i hate nerfs in eso because it caters to the lower skilled players and because pve gets negatively affected because of pvp

Kuramas9tails · October 2017

I been cool with just about everything....except resource. It really forced me to spend money to change my race. I just wanted to keep playing my magic khajjit madeblade in hard content. I miss him so much.

Artis · October 2017

It doesn't matter if I'm weaker or stronger than before relative to PvE content. PvE content is just the background. Instead of nerfing us, they could buff enemies - same result. What matters is where I am relative to others.

Have nothing against nerfs as in changing numbers, do not like having to learn again how to DPS or which gear is good and which isn't. Really really disliked first months after Morrowind for that very reason.

disintegr8 · October 2017

ZOS really need to find a way to nerf things that are OP for PVP without affecting PVE.

Most calls for nerfs in PVE are because Johnny Come Lately doesn't think it is fair that he can't achieve or complete something after a few hours of playing and believes he has every right to it........

VaranisArano · October 2017

disintegr8 wrote: »

ZOS really need to find a way to nerf things that are OP for PVP without affecting PVE.

Most calls for nerfs in PVE are because Johnny Come Lately doesn't think it is fair that he can't achieve or complete something after a few hours of playing and believes he has every right to it........

They've managed it before. I loved the nerf to Viper because the change of the proc to a DOT rather than a single hit addressed the issue in PVP perfectly while keeping the effect for PVE exactly the same.

Apache_Kid · October 2017

Call me crazy, but with my limited play time i'd rather clear content as fast as possible. Nerfs tend to just increase the amount of time content takes to clear without actually creating a difficulty increase which to me is not rewarding. Less heavy attacks

Crom_CCCXVI · October 2017

Because ESO continually Nerfs ingenuity and buffs the Meta.
-- they listen to the whiners here, which are mostly Meta players, whining because their Meta isn't Meta enough.

Proof Most recently.
Even though like 75% of PvP is sheild stacking Sorcs, to the point where other builds are an endangered species, the last nerfs-
Stamina proc sets.- and defending armor
Sheild Breaker set on a staff. (something that had been around for 3 years.- never a problem until the entire whiny population started playing the same build of a sheild stacking sorc).

Urza1234 · October 2017

Marto wrote: »

(You know, like the groups that could run veteran dungeons every 5 minutes, back in the Homestead Patch).

Who do you think it is doing the complaining?

In all fairness though, I think complaints are valid when they are about not necessarily nerfs, but removal of unique functions of a skill. That being said most of the time that ZOS has taken the function off a skill its because the skill was heavily overloaded.

The_Smilemeister · October 2017

If I wanted nerfs, well...

Ch4mpTW · October 2017

This is the only game I’ve touched where my characters get weaker over time. This is in regards to gear sets, and build decisions. Of course power creep should never be considered, but neither should a situation like this be present.

VaranisArano · October 2017

Crom_CCCXVI wrote: »

Because ESO continually Nerfs ingenuity and buffs the Meta.
-- they listen to the whiners here, which are mostly Meta players, whining because their Meta isn't Meta enough.

Proof Most recently.
Even though like 75% of PvP is sheild stacking Sorcs, to the point where other builds are an endangered species, the last nerfs-
Stamina proc sets.- and defending armor
Sheild Breaker set on a staff. (something that had been around for 3 years.- never a problem until the entire whiny population started playing the same build of a sheild stacking sorc).

75% percent of PVP is shield-stacking sorcs. 50% every group is stacking Earthgore. PVP is all permablocking super tanky types that are killing PVP diversity. Why would anyone run anything but a magblade for maximum damage with a destro ulti? Every group is filled with unkillable templars and DKs. Everyone, and I mean everyone, is wearing heavy armor. (All taken from recent threads on PVP.)

Sooner or later everyone going to get the picture that PVPers can't count and can't keep their story straight.

Personally, I see a variety of classes and builds every night that I raid in Cyrodiil (PC/NA Vivec). Cyrodiil is so situational that specialized builds are always going to fill certain niches, but saying that certain builds are endangered species or that PVP is dominated by one or two builds does not match what I see in Cyrodiil.

Onefrkncrzypope · October 2017

There have been post where nerfs to overperforming skills can be attributed to learn to play issues. That being said there are some imbalances in this game. Magicka melee is a very easy and overt example. In a game where mechanics are few and there is always a DPS race lower preforming classes will be rejected. I will never cry for a stamDK nerf but why would someone bring in a mDK or a magplar when sDKs just outperform. Thus I call for buffs to melee classes.

Another good example is the magwarden. Consider relevant in PvP but not in PvE. What are the problems? How can this be solved with buffs? Well what skills does a mag warden use in either and if there is any changes that would affect the current status qou. problems : no group synergy and lack of AOE damage and the that dang bear.

only Buffs for solutions:
one skill that is used in PvP winters revenge have it buff magic damage to targets inside the AOE. static skill so pvp it will still be hard to use and it brings much need dps to warden and a unique group synergy to group content.
the bear is also kinda useless in pvp so have the activated attack be conal like the bears in overworld and have it respawn instantly after the first death in a min or w.e

These are the kinds of buffs I want. Though out suggestions to help where classes are behind.

The problem with ZoS's nerfs are that the team over there doesn't sound very versed in and classes and roles in PvE and PvP. This game is fragile when it comes to balance. They buffed pet for sorcs how long ago? They have been royalty of mag ever since even had a time where is was sorc or nothing.(multiple times for elder staves online too) Nerfs can be even more detrimental. DK's sustain nerfs, magplars noodle of an execute are some examples. Nerfs even if wanted changes the balance. Ever since Iv's paid attention to patch notes buffs and nerfs are either usually unneeded(petrify nerf just so stone fist looks good) or too heavy handed(shadow now hits less hard then warrior or the apprentice).

but bottom line people don't like nerfs because it's makes them weaker. Regardless is it makes since or not.

Ch4mpTW · October 2017

VaranisArano wrote: »

Crom_CCCXVI wrote: »

Because ESO continually Nerfs ingenuity and buffs the Meta.
-- they listen to the whiners here, which are mostly Meta players, whining because their Meta isn't Meta enough.

Proof Most recently.
Even though like 75% of PvP is sheild stacking Sorcs, to the point where other builds are an endangered species, the last nerfs-
Stamina proc sets.- and defending armor
Sheild Breaker set on a staff. (something that had been around for 3 years.- never a problem until the entire whiny population started playing the same build of a sheild stacking sorc).

75% percent of PVP is shield-stacking sorcs. 50% every group is stacking Earthgore. PVP is all permablocking super tanky types that are killing PVP diversity. Why would anyone run anything but a magblade for maximum damage with a destro ulti? Every group is filled with unkillable templars and DKs. Everyone, and I mean everyone, is wearing heavy armor. (All taken from recent threads on PVP.)

Sooner or later everyone going to get the picture that PVPers can't count and can't keep their story straight.

Personally, I see a variety of classes and builds every night that I raid in Cyrodiil (PC/NA Vivec). Cyrodiil is so situational that specialized builds are always going to fill certain niches, but saying that certain builds are endangered species or that PVP is dominated by one or two builds does not match what I see in Cyrodiil.

Quoted for truth.

And to keep it G with you? True balance will never be attained in viewing things from the perspective of PvP. NEVER. Nothing even close will be considered. Especially with the devs trying to balance around both PvE and PvP (comical and ridiculous indeed). And the reason for this, is because in an environment where you have classes and sets — 1 will always outclass the others. Always. Without fail. And see, people will complain about this. And they will complain and complain until these classes and sets become a husk of their former selves. Constantly fading and losing their identity.

The closest thing ZOS had to balance was back around the era of DK’s reflecting meteors. Stamina being able to be recovered while blocking. Sorcerers having longer duration shields, and being able to Bolt Escape without penalty. And so on. Back then, every class was in a beautiful spot (in my opinion). Stamina or magicka variants. Yes. Even StamSorcs back then could handle their business, if they were build properly. And that was before people were copying @FENGRUSH builds right and left.

Keep it up, ZOS. Lol. You think people quitting over Morrowind’s launch, and up to this point is bad? As 1 of Overwatch’s Zenyatta’s voicelines says, “If you do not change where you are headed, you may end-up where you going.”