This one believes it was in visioned but the the 9-5 playstyle and customer service time sinks didn't rate popular with most Khajiit , preferring less technology and more Skooma instead .

Lokryn wrote: »

I've read some neat fan theories that the world of Tamriel and its technologies are actually devolving/regressing over time rather than advancing.

https://youtu.be/7MrAWS-MiMU

Yeah, the video makes a few good points, but misses some critical detail. I don't know if it was an intentional homage or not, but TES3 partially builds into the idea from the middle ages that the inhabitants lived in a fallen world. Specifically, the term you'll sometimes see is postlapsarian.

TES's technological development and political status puts it somewhere in the 8th to 10th century (with some anachronisms). (When we're talking about the single player games, anyway.) Given that Skyrim and Oblivion are only 200 years apart, the relative lack of technological advancement isn't that strange. Especially given the deterioration of The Empire in that time.

Particularly, in Europe during the dark ages, the ancient world was seen as a wondrous place, with technological marvels that were lost to the "modern" world. Which makes sense if you're emptying your waste onto the street in a bucket, and being told that the Romans had indoor plumbing.

This was further compounded by rhetorical effect and embellishment. Consider that Plato basically invented Atlantis to make an argument. "Hey, look how cool it would be if we did things this way, but let me explain this via the method of saying, 'but it worked before.'" At that point all kinds of marvelous and mythical technologies that never existed (or weren't as impressive as they were presented) get accepted as fact, because no one alive has the frame of reference to challenge it and say, "but, wait-a-minute, that's not how that worked," or, "Plato was habitually full of [gratuitous censorship]."

Within that context, TES's technological development isn't that strange. The only part that becomes questionable is why hasn't there been faster development due to magic... which might actually be why. Magic did allow technologies like smithing to advance far faster than in the real world, but it seems to have stagnated (at a roughly 15th century level.) Probably because it's dealing with materials that are flat out impossible to create on Earth, (like Ebony or Orichalcum (oh, right, "orichalcum" is another piece of Plato's Atlantis story, by the way, though it's supposed to be a golden bronze, rather than green)), and as a result you have heavy armor forging that has access to materials far in advance of anything you'd see in the real world. Meaning there's less incentive to develop that technology further.

The other thing that, ironically, probably impairs technological advancement in Tamriel is that Alchemy is too good. That is to say, Alchemy has accepted and effective, magical properties. In the real world alchemy lead to the development of chemistry, and with it, a lot of our understanding of the modern world. But, on Tamriel, because of how alchemy functions, it takes scientific research out at the knees.

Also, it's distinctly possible that Tamriel lacks advanced mathematics. Not sure how that happened, but here we are. Which further puts a hard lock on technological development.

He's not completely wrong about Skyrim. It's not exactly, post-apocalyptic. But 4e200 is an apocalyptic setting. The world is watching the literal end times unfold, as a dragon that is prophesied to devour the world is bouncing around waking up his buddies after an unusually long bender. So, depending on what Bethesda does, it's distinctly possible that TES6 will be post -apocalyptic.

Though, at this point, it's probably worth remembering that early on in Skyrim's development, it was (according to rumors which have popped up a couple times, and been partially confirmed by Bethesda devs) slated to be a Game of Thrones tie-in, rather than a TES title. This was abandoned, but, it's a large part of why Oblivion to Skyrim jumps from Late-Roman Empire to War of the Roses in tone and flavor.

Kirkbride, one of the writers for Morrowind, has done Fanfic since leaving Bethesda that has envisioned a futuristic Nirn. But Elder Scrolls was always meant to be a medievalish fantasy setting. These sort of settings are always locked into a time medieval time period.

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Kirkbride, one of the writers for Morrowind, has done Fanfic since leaving Bethesda that has envisioned a futuristic Nirn. But Elder Scrolls was always meant to be a medievalish fantasy setting. These sort of settings are always locked into a time medieval time period.

"fan fiction" is a weird term for something made by the creative director of TES III, but also if you had read it you'd know that it specifically doesn't take place on Nirn.

https://www.c0da.es/

A lot of the modern stuff is explored via the Dwemer and Sotha Sil's interpretation and then expansion on the concepts. It is worth noting that mathematics in the Elder Scrolls universe is basically advanced magic and physics work differently. So Dwemer were basically tinkering with the fastenings of the world when performing advanced science. When the world is made up from the dead bodies of the gods that made it and outer space is basically another dimensional plane with spirits then if you tinker enough you can become part of what you are studying. Which is one theory of what happened to the Dwemer.

I guess we are mostly talking about modern culture and technology instead but with the same reasoning if your culture is based on instructions from a higher power which you have proof exists or in emulation of a deity who told you to walk/live this way in order to become a deity yourself then you strive for that.

As mentioned above the society of the Altmer is sufficiently advanced, brings comfort and fulfills all their needs using magic and rules. Not sure why a civilisation needs to follow the rules that we ourselves think are what an "advanced society" is. I mean, in 100 years the idea of an advanced society will be pretty different.
An Altmer would wonder why we toil 9 to 5 to live in a small cramped flat and use screens to escape our reality while he uses magic to gain what he needs and just studies in order to understand his ancestor better in order to become a god himself

TES is not 8-10th century AD, its far better organized and technology level is far more advanced.
The sawmills in Skyrim is an 1600-1700 design, including the carriage return.
They have an replica close to there I live, windmills, window glass, most of all printing, books are cheap and common. probably too cheap as it would require industrialized printing to get them so common as in the game, still process might be halfway magic.

Progress is very different however, magic changes the needs for one.

And yes during medieval times they looked at the ruins of the ancient civilizations with wonder, it was more about organization than technology however European countries in later medieval time had better technology than the Romans, far better with metal and water was used as power source a lot but weak feudal countries unable of large projects

The Dwemer show a bit how advanced technology in tamriel would work out, it would include a lot of magic.
The large robots uses steam for power and is magically controlled, the small also used magic for power but for all the movement is mechanic.

starkerealm wrote: »

Lokryn wrote: »

I've read some neat fan theories that the world of Tamriel and its technologies are actually devolving/regressing over time rather than advancing.

https://youtu.be/7MrAWS-MiMU

Yeah, the video makes a few good points, but misses some critical detail. I don't know if it was an intentional homage or not, but TES3 partially builds into the idea from the middle ages that the inhabitants lived in a fallen world. Specifically, the term you'll sometimes see is postlapsarian.

TES's technological development and political status puts it somewhere in the 8th to 10th century (with some anachronisms). (When we're talking about the single player games, anyway.) Given that Skyrim and Oblivion are only 200 years apart, the relative lack of technological advancement isn't that strange. Especially given the deterioration of The Empire in that time.

Particularly, in Europe during the dark ages, the ancient world was seen as a wondrous place, with technological marvels that were lost to the "modern" world. Which makes sense if you're emptying your waste onto the street in a bucket, and being told that the Romans had indoor plumbing.

This was further compounded by rhetorical effect and embellishment. Consider that Plato basically invented Atlantis to make an argument. "Hey, look how cool it would be if we did things this way, but let me explain this via the method of saying, 'but it worked before.'" At that point all kinds of marvelous and mythical technologies that never existed (or weren't as impressive as they were presented) get accepted as fact, because no one alive has the frame of reference to challenge it and say, "but, wait-a-minute, that's not how that worked," or, "Plato was habitually full of [gratuitous censorship]."

Within that context, TES's technological development isn't that strange. The only part that becomes questionable is why hasn't there been faster development due to magic... which might actually be why. Magic did allow technologies like smithing to advance far faster than in the real world, but it seems to have stagnated (at a roughly 15th century level.) Probably because it's dealing with materials that are flat out impossible to create on Earth, (like Ebony or Orichalcum (oh, right, "orichalcum" is another piece of Plato's Atlantis story, by the way, though it's supposed to be a golden bronze, rather than green)), and as a result you have heavy armor forging that has access to materials far in advance of anything you'd see in the real world. Meaning there's less incentive to develop that technology further.

The other thing that, ironically, probably impairs technological advancement in Tamriel is that Alchemy is too good. That is to say, Alchemy has accepted and effective, magical properties. In the real world alchemy lead to the development of chemistry, and with it, a lot of our understanding of the modern world. But, on Tamriel, because of how alchemy functions, it takes scientific research out at the knees.

Also, it's distinctly possible that Tamriel lacks advanced mathematics. Not sure how that happened, but here we are. Which further puts a hard lock on technological development.

He's not completely wrong about Skyrim. It's not exactly, post-apocalyptic. But 4e200 is an apocalyptic setting. The world is watching the literal end times unfold, as a dragon that is prophesied to devour the world is bouncing around waking up his buddies after an unusually long bender. So, depending on what Bethesda does, it's distinctly possible that TES6 will be post -apocalyptic.

Though, at this point, it's probably worth remembering that early on in Skyrim's development, it was (according to rumors which have popped up a couple times, and been partially confirmed by Bethesda devs) slated to be a Game of Thrones tie-in, rather than a TES title. This was abandoned, but, it's a large part of why Oblivion to Skyrim jumps from Late-Roman Empire to War of the Roses in tone and flavor.

I think saying "Skyrim is 8th-10th century because of the political decay" is a bit of a abd oidea. people are talking tech level. and tech level Tamerial seems to be a ROUGHLY gunpowderless rennisciance

starkerealm wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

TES is not 8-10th century AD, its far better organized and technology level is far more advanced.
The sawmills in Skyrim is an 1600-1700 design, including the carriage return.
They have an replica close to there I live, windmills, window glass, most of all printing, books are cheap and common. probably too cheap as it would require industrialized printing to get them so common as in the game, still process might be halfway magic.

As I said, with some anachronisms. TES isn't a franchise like Warhammer where you can point to the setting and say, "yeah, it is exactly this era, and this level of technology," (Warhammer Fantasy is explicitly Early Modern, for reference.)

TES, like a lot of fantasy settings, follows the Robert E. Howard historical bouillabaisse approach, and pulls in elements from all over the place. So you have waterwheels, and the printing press centuries before those technologies would have existed in the real world.

At that point, stepping back and extrapolating out the overall era to something analogous in the real world is going to result in some... "oddities." Also, worth remembering, I was talking specifically about 4e200 being roughly analogous to the 8th to 10th century, based on the overall political decay present. Not, that all of TES is locked in that timeframe. Go back to Oblivion and I'd actually say it's more in line with the fifteenth or sixteenth century, (so, hey, credit to you on that count), from the way the environment is presented. Paradoxically, that's also where I'd, roughly, peg ESO.

Also, note, I explicitly stated the technology is, well ahead of the 800-1000 range, particularly metallurgy, which is far more advanced than anything the real world had in that timeframe.

Honestly, when it comes to the books... it's a mess. So, ESO has someone explicitly inventing a printer (in one of the hireling mail chains). So far so good. Oblivion has mass printed broadsheets, and you'll actually get new issues of the Black Horse Courier as you play through the game. Much like Three Dog in Fallout 3, it reacts to your actions, and other world events, (though I don't remember it responding to your decisions explicitly, the way Three Dog did.)

The pricing of books certainly supports that idea. They're common, and cheap (relatively). At the same time, there's a large quantity of information decay in the setting, that suggests stuff isn't being recorded at all. Particularly when it comes to magic, and spells being stripped off the list with each release. I get why Passwall was removed, for example, but it still feels strange that something this useful would be forgotten.

I'm inclined to chalk this up to BGS not understanding (or not caring) how much work and effort goes into maintaining a printing press. But, of course, once you have the idea, it does do really weird things for technological development as a whole.

zaria wrote: »

Progress is very different however, magic changes the needs for one.

And yes during medieval times they looked at the ruins of the ancient civilizations with wonder, it was more about organization than technology however European countries in later medieval time had better technology than the Romans, far better with metal and water was used as power source a lot but weak feudal countries unable of large projects

The Dwemer show a bit how advanced technology in tamriel would work out, it would include a lot of magic.
The large robots uses steam for power and is magically controlled, the small also used magic for power but for all the movement is mechanic.

It'd probably be more accurate to say that the Dwarves set the tone for one possible path of technological development in Tamriel. You could just as easily see something like Warhammer's High Elves or even Magic: The Gathering's Ravnica, if magical and technological development continues unchecked.

Printing presses are pretty simple to make, had been no problem making them in the bronze age, but you probably would not have an marked, in the Roman empire however they would be very nice.

My guess its an interest in restricting access to powerful spells both of security issues but also so mages keep an monopoly on it. Add that theories of advanced illusion spellcrafting would sell less than the lusty argonian maid
Simpler spells who many could use was far more widespread and did not get lost.
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Lots of simple technology was not invented for long times simply as nobody thought of it, horse collar and stirrups are two.

On the other hand others like steam is harder as it require lots of accuracy in getting the piston to seal well enough.
This was also an major issue with guns and guns helped a lot teaching us to make good and strong cylinders.
In short the Romans could not build an steam engine.
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And yes both Skyrim and ESO is set during times of trouble, fall of Rome is an obvious one but it has been plenty of them during history