Most Tanks Cannot tanking

TheValar85 · October 2017

Before i got in to my point first there are some expetations in the circle of tanks who can actualy tanking. So for those base dont take it personaly because you are not one of them who can't tanking.

Now then, i have been all across Tamriel including every dungeon, trials, and so on except the 2 new ones.
But it came to atention that most of the player base who chose tanking role in veteran dungeons or even normal, they simply cant hold agro.
i dont know how long hase been this is an issue in the game, but i cant simply hold my thoughts back.

i am mostly a Damage Dealer, but i used to healing too. And no matter what role i am playing with all i see the tank charges in to the mobs group and all see they are atacing me! ME! is there a bug around the agro holding or what? This is not my first mmorpg game what i am playing with and i know dps and healers can have agro thats for sure, but BUUT agro down every piece of mobs from the tanks is just insane!

Not to mention they can't even taunt them back. How much agro time i should give to the tanks? half hp from the bosses or the mobs should be enough when i can safely healing and damage dealing or what?

This must be rethinking and re developing. tanks should pull everything together and hold them of of the ranged damage dealers and from the healers. yet the oposite happens all the god damn time.

In other cenario there is even a base where there is Zero communication with the other group members, it's like they simply cannot speak english or can't even type. (i am sorry about that i know i am not good at English grammar and spelling i am sorry but my language is not based on Latin but at least i try my best to make my self understandable) and when the whole group wipes down we are called noobs. And i see this constantly and i am ready think even if the tank is over 660 cp that level is dosent matters anymore, because he simply cant tanking. And thiese kind of players runins every god damn istances ingame.

I am not a tank but when i finaly meet a proper one who know what to do i personaly prase the gods they have been sent to us.And i even aknowledge them how good they were, but sadly those numbers are too low.

I dont know what's going on here but this is cannot stand this anymore and i have to speak up for the sake of the game. Send a every player a tanking tutorial guide in e-mail becasue those who haven't got a clue who to do it in the good way they are not going to look up any guide on the internet thats for sure, and the good tanks are just rare in these days.

Thank you for your time and effort to read my post.

PS: for the tanks who can play with their roles: i love you all guys keep up the good playing style and may the nine bells you all!

The_Protagonist · October 2017

Most posters cannot posting

Jokes aside, this is a side effect of using grouping tool, better run with friends that you know are good, or with a guild where you know that people play well.

You must also remember that there are quite a few bosses that cannot be taunted or some mechanic(s) prevent taunting.

As far as a tutorial is concerned, why don't you post a few here and actually learn them yourself, this would be useful for teaching pugs that are ready to learn, provided you know what you are taking about.

Peace

Edit: Typos

TheValar85 · October 2017

The_Protagonist wrote: »

Most posters cannot posting

Jokes aside, this is a side effect of using grouping tool, better run with friends that you know are good, or with a guild where you know that people play well.

You must also remember that there are quite a few bosses that cannot be taunted or some mechanics prevent taunting.

As far a tutorial is concerned, why don't you post a few here and actually learn them yourself, this would be useful for teaching pugs that are ready to learn, provided you know what you are taking about.

Peace

Because i am not a tank kind sir? And i am not a kindergarden teacher either if you get what i mean by that. And it is not the bosees i know some of them are taunt immun and random agro, but the trash is not DUH!

Teridaxus · October 2017

Well this game doesn't reward tanking in any way, it even punishes us like taking away block reduction from skills and put it into armour traits, forcing people to farm/craft items despite no item level increase, loot caps based on dps and doing vma on my tank was my worst experience ever in this game.
I had to tank the ice water until i got that damn giant defeated...

TheValar85 · October 2017

Teridaxus wrote: »

Well this game doesn't reward tanking in any way, it even punishes us like taking away block reduction from skills and put it into armour traits, forcing people to farm/craft items despite no item level increase, loot caps based on dps and doing vma on my tank was my worst experience ever in this game.
I had to tank the ice water until i got that damn giant defeated...

I am realy sorry about that, honestly

i wish i can help about that.

Narvuntien · October 2017

There are no AoE taunts I have to go around and taunt each individual member of a mob.
As a magicka tank I just don't have the stamina to spare.

You as the DPS have to quickly kill the adds because I have the main boss to focus on.
Trash mobs just don't do enough damage to threaten you if you have a sensible amount of hp and 1 defensive skill.

TheValar85 · October 2017

Narvuntien wrote: »

There are no AoE taunts I have to go around and taunt each individual member of a mob.
As a magicka tank I just don't have the stamina to spare.

You as the DPS have to quickly kill the adds because I have the main boss to focus on.
Trash mobs just don't do enough damage to threaten you if you have a sensible amount of hp and 1 defensive skill.

yeah that would work thats for sure and with good tank it works, but mostly i only see brainless ones. And yes i have defensive skills and very decent hp as well but when the half instces mobs are on me thats definetly not a good tactical runn.

SwimsWithMemes · October 2017

So, from what I understood in your post

1) You are annoyed when a tank runs into a group of mobs and does not hold the aggro?

Unfortunately, that is how ESO is designed, There is no way to taunt a whole group. Each one takes a second to taunt, and it is ridiculously hard to navigate through 10 scamps and target each of them once. So, tanks instead SHOULD taunt the melee adds and the archers. These are the guys who do a lot of CC to your damage dealers, preventing them from actually dealing damage.

If you have a mob chasing you, kindly bring it towards your tank. Unless its a boss fight, they will generally notice your health bar dropping rapidly and see they have missed one of the two handed guys. It helps if you stand just in front of your healer as well, tanks get to group them up nice and easy.

2) When you say "can't taunt them back" and mention "aggro time" - I will explain how the whole taunt mechanic works. There is no "heat" or "threat" level of players in ESO. An enemy is either taunted, or it isn't. Every time your tank does a puncture, or Inner Fire, or Frost Heavy attack, they get the taunt of that SINGLE enemy for 15 seconds. Unless you yourself have a taunt, there is no way trash mobs are going to aggro to you. This taunt must be reapplied ~every 15 seconds (can be earlier), but if the tank misses it then the mob will probably wander off.

Next is the concept of "overtaunting". Ocassionally, you will be in a dungeon with a tank and a frost staff user. (Or in trials that need two tanks.). If a single enemy is taunted by more than one player twice in a short window, it will do a couple of things. First: It cannot be taunted until the most recent taunt has worn off. What this means is that the poor 2nd tank (or ice staff user) will be unaware they have aggro until they get unfortunately smacked up by an enemy they assumed was safely taunted.

Is that clear? If its not I can try rewriting it / linking some videos.

Finally, the tanks main job is basically just a crowd control machine. They stop the big dudes from running off and smacking you up, then they focus on interrupting healing mobs, and LOS/chaining them into a group. Next, they focus on group buffs and enemy debuffs - seen through excellent sets like Ebon Armory (glowing red orbs that give your team extra health!), Igneous Shields to make your healers job easier, and then lowering the resistances of enemies so the DPS can kill 'em quicker.

Syntse · October 2017

TheValar85 wrote: »

Not to mention they can't even taunt them back. How much agro time i should give to the tanks? half hp from the bosses or the mobs should be enough when i can safely healing and damage dealing or what?

I consider myself ok tank. As there is no aoe taunt the trash pulls in dungeons are more or less responsibility of dps and healer to keep them alive and the dps needs to be good enough that the trash dies before they can do any major damage. Surely I do taunt few of those and even try to throw in aoe on those before any dps to pull few aggros but going around taunting 10 targets one by one is not really working.

Boss situations my main concern is to keep the boss aggro on me all the time when it is possible and even pick up few adds when possible, some dungeon bosses do seem to ignore the taunts or have mechanics that they will randomly choose target to attack. Nothing can be done to those except the person who is getting attacked being alert and blocking or dodging.

Surely I've seen people going in to dungeons as tank and not even having taunt at all. Point being as there is no aoe taunt in big trash pulls all tank might possibly do is to add to the damage to help to get rid of those faster.

The_Protagonist · October 2017

strebor2095 wrote: »

So, from what I understood in your post

1) You are annoyed when a tank runs into a group of mobs and does not hold the aggro?

Unfortunately, that is how ESO is designed, There is no way to taunt a whole group. Each one takes a second to taunt, and it is ridiculously hard to navigate through 10 scamps and target each of them once. So, tanks instead SHOULD taunt the melee adds and the archers. These are the guys who do a lot of CC to your damage dealers, preventing them from actually dealing damage.

If you have a mob chasing you, kindly bring it towards your tank. Unless its a boss fight, they will generally notice your health bar dropping rapidly and see they have missed one of the two handed guys. It helps if you stand just in front of your healer as well, tanks get to group them up nice and easy.

2) When you say "can't taunt them back" and mention "aggro time" - I will explain how the whole taunt mechanic works. There is no "heat" or "threat" level of players in ESO. An enemy is either taunted, or it isn't. Every time your tank does a puncture, or Inner Fire, or Frost Heavy attack, they get the taunt of that SINGLE enemy for 15 seconds. Unless you yourself have a taunt, there is no way trash mobs are going to aggro to you. This taunt must be reapplied ~every 15 seconds (can be earlier), but if the tank misses it then the mob will probably wander off.

Next is the concept of "overtaunting". Ocassionally, you will be in a dungeon with a tank and a frost staff user. (Or in trials that need two tanks.). If a single enemy is taunted by more than one player twice in a short window, it will do a couple of things. First: It cannot be taunted until the most recent taunt has worn off. What this means is that the poor 2nd tank (or ice staff user) will be unaware they have aggro until they get unfortunately smacked up by an enemy they assumed was safely taunted.

Is that clear? If its not I can try rewriting it / linking some videos.

Finally, the tanks main job is basically just a crowd control machine. They stop the big dudes from running off and smacking you up, then they focus on interrupting healing mobs, and LOS/chaining them into a group. Next, they focus on group buffs and enemy debuffs - seen through excellent sets like Ebon Armory (glowing red orbs that give your team extra health!), Igneous Shields to make your healers job easier, and then lowering the resistances of enemies so the DPS can kill 'em quicker.

That's nicely written +1 insightful

AzraelKrieg · October 2017

Tanks should be prioritising the biggest threat to the group. Trash mobs usually are not that big of an issue so do not get priority.

I'll use Crypt of Hearts 2 while on vet trying to do hard mode for pledge completion as an example. Nerien'eth summons wraiths into the fight at certain points. To complete vet hard mode to get 2 keys, 4 of those wraiths need to be kept alive when Nerien'eth grabs the blade in the center of the room. Tank's priority is on those wraiths and not the boss since the boss is not the biggest threat to the group.

Alternatively, using COH2 as an example again, there is a Skeleton mini boss during the run that summons adds during the fight. Tank's role is to focus on the mini boss and not on the adds. Adds will more than likely die to AoE affects but if they don't it's not the tanks job to handle them, that's your job as a DPS to single out the add causing the most trouble and get it down as quickly as possible.

neal_brasier · October 2017

Another problem I have as a tank is when the dps run into an area before I've got everything taunted and under control and take agro also attacking the bosses before I can grab them. If that happens it's hard to get an area back under control and sometimes I don't even bother.

LordGavus · October 2017

Remember there is no aoe or group taunt. If you expect a tank to taunt every member of a 10 member mob, that's just not going to happen. You can only get a taunt off every second or so.

Tank should taunt the heavy hitters. Two handers or other dangerous guys. Then use CC to try and control the mob.
After I've got a handle on the mob I'll start taunting the little guys if it will be helpful.

Sometimes the tank might miss a guy, if that happens then you can either burst it down or bring it back to the group. Don't run away.

Remember that playing with randoms will be hit and miss. In a perfect world tank will taunt the big guys, snare and group well, and the dps will burn the mob in a matter of seconds.

On the subject of tutorials, I'm an advocate of locking vet content behind role tutorials, maybe as part of the undaunted. I doubt it would ever happen though.

As a side note, I've run into many more dps and healers that desperately needed a tutorial.

TheValar85 · October 2017

neal_brasier wrote: »

Another problem I have as a tank is when the dps run into an area before I've got everything taunted and under control and take agro also attacking the bosses before I can grab them. If that happens it's hard to get an area back under control and sometimes I don't even bother.

well trust me i am not that kind of guy.

i have no doupt in your tankink skills who have posted al ready here. all i am saying i know what is your role here, i just dont get it why the tanks cant have at least one aoe tount in that case, as a dps i can hold the mobs mostly quiet well but as a healer i cant deal with them all. And it is not my fault if the rest of the group dps are not doing what should be done. And it is hard to keep alive the tank and also deal with the mobs because many cenarios the other damage dealers are not doing their works also as you previously said, wich is nteresting because when i switch back as a dmage dealer to an other dungeon run i can hodl them of of me. But as healer and when the rest of the damag dealers are just pulling every *** in the dungeoens is just a pure chaos.

Zypheran · October 2017

There are two main issues that make tanking trash mobs difficult. Firstly, as many have already said, it is just not feasable to taunt an entire mob. The solution however, is often thwarted by the second issue. A good tank will get into the mob first, hit the mob with an aoe and then target 1 or 2 key enemies with taunt but if a trigger happy dd fires of a few shots before tank can aoe the mob, then the mob is already aggro'd. Also when a dd runs into a mob ahead of a tank, pulls agro and then runs off like a headless chicken because they have too much agro, this makes it impossible for a tank to round up the trash.
Basically a tank cant aoe taunt but if the dd's wait a second or two, a tank can agro a mob and pull it together to allow a dd to come in and burn the mob. So yes, many players dont know how to perform the role of tank but equally, many dd's dont know how to let a good tank do their job

UncleRiot · October 2017

I don't see there a general issue. I play DD and heal with my guild and in random groups.
Most tanks I'm with (random groups) do their job well.

If I have agro as DD, I have to stay near the tank, so the healer could aoe heal easier and the
tank may taunt my attackers.
If I have agro as heal, I have to stay near tank, so I get helped out bei aoe-damage, tank taunts and my heal too.

As mentioned - I don't see there general tank-class/player specific problems.
As a DD I don't expect, that the tank is there for my personal security service. I have to
bring him the mobs, if I have agro and I have to play sensitive.

Just my two pence...

TheValar85 · October 2017

i can only quote on my self on that.

I am not that kind of damage dealer.

i even gave a tank a half min or more before i put my aoe down. and leater on i am getting insulted to why not damaging and when i expalin to him i simply gave him a time ia got laughed out...

witchdoctor · October 2017

My pet peeve is tanks who seem to think they dodge boss attacks by running it in circles.

LadyNalcarya · October 2017

TheValar85 wrote: »

i can only quote on my self on that.

I am not that kind of damage dealer.

i even gave a tank a half min or more before i put my aoe down. and leater on i am getting insulted to why not damaging and when i expalin to him i simply gave him a time ia got laughed out...

Why? There's no need to taunt every single banekin, tanking big mobs (or any mobs that can oneshot dds or healer) is enough.

Slick_007 · October 2017

i doubt OP has played with 'most' tanks and the issue is likely not the tank

ValkynSketha · October 2017

I agree with a must have asap basic class/role/combat in game guide, all of what is happening in pug and dungeon finder runs is zos fault, the sad thing is that most of them don't even know the basics and take the group content in this game in a play how you want perspective.
In your case for example a in-game tanking guide showing which skills applying taunt, as to that you as tank can use a first hit aoe skill on trash and pull most if not all aggro such as talons and or caltrops, as well using crowd control, stacking mobs by using chains or the monster set that pull(forgot the name) or by Line of sight, and a lot more, but whatever let them just continue putting more supposedly in-game rewards in crown crate.

GreenhaloX · October 2017

TheValar85 wrote: »

Before i got in to my point first there are some expetations in the circle of tanks who can actualy tanking. So for those base dont take it personaly because you are not one of them who can't tanking.

I hear you.. I have all toons, except a healer. For some reasons I cannot fathom to create a healer toon. Yes, at times, I wonder why some are sporting a sword and board, because they aren't tanking or aggroing anything; just slashing away while the boss is still running amuck. A tank's main job, really, as I see it, is to hold the boss at bay. DPSs can take care of the adds/trash mobs. To be fair, there are also some sorry dpsers running around; whether they are just new to the game or not yet figured out how to use rotations of skills. Anyways, that is what dps or dd are supposed to do; take out any adds fairly quick and then get to that boss where the tank is holding off.

Yes, in a group, a dps should pay attention to any adds going after a healer, and the dps should go after that add or adds. When I'm on my tank, I also try to pay attention to the healer as well. If I see any add going after the healer, I try to rush to aggro that add off the healer as well while still aggroing the boss. However, other than health, the other resources are limited for a tank. You would run out of juice fairly quick if you're having to run around and try to aggro everything. Again, that is why there are dps supposed to take care of adds while a tank is holding off the boss, and/or couple others higher hp adds, but not everything.

VaranisArano · October 2017

Basic tanking is having a taunt, holding boss aggro, and not dying.

Good tanking is having a taunt, holding boss aggro, not dying, holding the boss as still as possible with boss mechanics, debuffing the boss, buffing the group, and applying crowd control on mobs.

Taunting: there are three taunts in the game. Pierce Armor from One hand and shield applies major fracture and breach, Inner fire at ranged, Ice Staff heavy attack. All are single target.

Please keep in mind that plenty of boss mechanics ignore taunt, for example, in order to attack the farthest player from the boss.

Pulling mobs together: There are two really good ways to do that. DK chains and Swarm Mother Monster set. Both sets require the tank to do a lot of chaining or range taunt+block as opposed to anything else in the fight. Neither are necessary for a good tank since there are lots of crowd control options.

Nemesis7884 · October 2017

honestly if you cant handle normal mobs in a normal dungeon without the tank tanking them, you shouldnt be in dungeons in the first place.

imo i have never issues with the healer or tanks in dungeons but a lot of the dd who simply dont do any dungeon but just want to be pulled throuh for xp

Skullstachio · October 2017

A good idea would be to make Ransack (Puncture morph) so that it taunts 2 additional enemies within 5-8 meters of the initial target instead of granting minor resolve as there are other skills that buff resistances by default. By doing that, it would make tanking bosses & some trash mobs a bit easier for healers & dps players.

Inhuman003 · October 2017

I agree with you about some players not being able to tank but there are some bosses that can't be agro they are automatically in Rage mode they're made that way for majority of the dungeons that we play in the eso, but the bosses that can be tank with taunt make me sort of like what are you doing, and then I realize they (tank) depend on sword & board that passive skill and they don't realize the undaunted skill line that has the taunt in it.

idk · October 2017

The example OP provides is a tank with a group of mobs. The devs stated before the game was released it was not their intent for tanks to grab agro on each and every mob which is part of the reason they have also stated they will not add an AoE taunt and that AoE taunt is not needed by any means.

The devs expect each player in a dungeon, dps and healers, can handle one mob and in reality, it is not that challenging.

Further, while a skilled tank can get all the mobs together, easy for a DK with changes, but still very doable for other tanks in most cases, a newer tank will find it more challenging due to lack of experience and that is life.

Finally, OP is a DPS, if OP is going to be critical of the tanks then it is fair to state if OP is doing his/her role well then those mobs will not be alive long. If one expects the tank do be doing an excellent job then I would expect the critic to be doing an excellent job as well. When I tank for decent dps I do not even have to taunt the mobs, I just gather then. With lower dps groups I have to taunt and sometimes retaunt.

TheValar85 wrote: »

i can only quote on my self on that.

I am not that kind of damage dealer.

i even gave a tank a half min or more before i put my aoe down. and leater on i am getting insulted to why not damaging and when i expalin to him i simply gave him a time ia got laughed out...

This explains part of the issue. The DPS is letting the tank languish and not doing their own role. This is not WoW or SWTOR. As soon as the tank enters the DPS need to be doing their job. By game design the tank it not intended to taunt everything. DPS are expected to be able to manage their own defenses while dealing damage.

But we all should have the opportunity to learn these mechanics and I personally would not kick this dps just because they are slow to react.

SecretAtoz · October 2017

Don't blame everything on tanks. ESO tanking is designed differently.

Like what others said:
1) No aoe taunt
2) Some boss mechanics will target random players
3) I think there are a few or single boss that is immune to taunt(Direfrost last boss for example)

I just do not feel like tanking with pugs cause there are some players that will blame tanks for not taunting properly but they did not know it was designed that way.

Medakon · October 2017

Game was designed a strange way:

At the release, they designed the game where there was 2 packs of monsters in one group.

When you first engage them, the first half of that big group comes to you. The main goal of a tank was to use taunt on the stronger enemys, while damage dealers were tanking the weak ones, and healer healed. Game developers even said if a tank tanked everything, he would die of to much damage, so it had to be shared to all party members. This is also the reason why we still don't have AOE taunts. Anyways, once the first enemys had died, they second part started to engange you. This is why you sometimes charge a enemy group, and not everyone attack at once. Great example is fungal grotto 1.

Anyways, game became casual, and they started nerfing damage done from monsters, and increased our stats. Now players charge enemy packs, pulling both groups, and AOE. Personally when I tank, I dont use taunt, as my aoe spells pulls all aggro, and only taunt if there is a strong enemy I know could deal a bit of damage. And sometimes, I run straight to boss, pulling everysingle mob on the way, start boss fight, and begin aoe.. on veteran..

HatchetHaro · October 2017

Actually, in the cases of regular trash pulls like that, the tank should only need to taunt a handful of the most dangerous threats. The rest, you can heal through easily. A good tank would just do that, maybe CC the mobs, and then chain in the stragglers if he's able, and maybe cast vigor and shields as well to protect your squishy arse. This is the case for every single dungeon.

Another technique some tanks use is "soft-taunting", that is, to be the first source of damage on every single enemy so the tank would be the first target. This can be achieved by using an aoe damaging skill, and is the closesr you can get to an aoe taunt. However, the purpose of this isn't to protect teammates; it is to quickly and efficiently stack a group of enemies for a quick aoe bomb. This is much more of an advanced mechanic for speedrunning dungeons, and only the best of the best know how to use this mechanic.

Source: tanked all vet dungeons on hardmode and no-deaths, and am friends with and witnesses to many experienced tanks in vet trials.

Mauin · October 2017

I primarily tank random dungeons and frequently tank for pledges and trials. I was queuing for the Spindle II pledge last night to get a Blood Spawn helm and on my Warden tank I was pulled into a group where they had kicked their previous tank within the first two trash mobs because he or she was not holding aggro on trash. I'm sorry, but I honestly considered leaving before I could even get into the dungeon. I did stay in the end, but the entire time I wondered if they would kick me because I don't waste stamina taunting everything.

As a tank, I consider it extremely inefficient to taunt every single piece of trash in a mob. I taunt priority targets (generally ones that can do the most damage to group or otherwise cause the most problems) and try to group things up as much as possible. With a decent healer and DPS, that should be just fine. Trash is trash. If, for whatever reason, the trash mobs in dungeons are actually causing enough of a problem that the tank has to taunt everything, then either the healer isn't healing enough, or the DPS in that group need to reconsider their builds.