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Shieldstacking, should be allowed?
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Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭OtherKramUzibra wrote: »If heavy armor didn't function as it does right now, I'd say that shield stacking in light armor is better than what medium armor is capable of. But most stamina players are using heavy armor for both burst and defense, only a few still try and use medium armor with mixed results.
The meta is to tank and heal until your cheap defensive ult is up, aside from a few niche builds Sorc is the only one doing this in light armor. But a Sorc isn't tanking the damage of 4 good players like a stamina build in heavy, they are using their mobility in conjunction with LOS and dark deal. I don't think there is a single Sorc out there currently capable of simply shielding to tank the damage of 4 good players applying cc and pressure, in the same way that a heavy armor stamina build can with hots. And this is something that Sorc used to be able to do very well in past patches for various reasons, when complaints of shield stacking were legitimate.
If you think otherwise feel free to make a Sorc and try for yourself. The only complaint I can even come close to understanding is that shield stacking vs medium armor tends to be unfair for medium armor, but ZOS doesn't seem to even care that medium armor is a thing.
True but those heavy tankers lack the burst potential of a sorc. Sorcs have mobility, impenetrable shields, high dps/burst from any distance. Undodgeable range execute and if the sorc forgets to execute while target is in the execute window their passive implosion will take care of it for them. They are the all in one class. Sorcs need a rebalancing and penalizing sheilds might just be the solution.
You have been playing against the wrong heavyarmor builds.
I know a couple of NBs and stamsorcs in heavy that can literally threeshot anything sub 25k hp while wearing heavy with sword and board.<Noricum>
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Rainraven✭✭✭✭✭YesI promise you, you are not going to be pleased if magsorcs get shoehorned into the HA + sword and board meta.1 -
CyrusArya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭OtherRemove shield stacking, buff hardened ward and/or give sorc some proportionate buff or utility to compensate. Sorc is nowhere near as strong as people make em out to be, a misconception rooted in ignorance of how sorcs function or the challenges the class has. But that being said, I want stacking removed (sans healing ward) cus id much rather run only one shield. Just as tedious as it is to fight shield stacks, shield stacking itself is tedious to have to do every few seconds in combat. Especially compared to the fluid defensive mechanics of stam builds.
That being said, the only reason I run harness is cus without it I'm at a huge disadvantage vs sorcs that do run it. Remove stacking, buff sorcs native defenses. If stacking is simply removed without compensation, sorcs will underperform compared to everything else. For exampl, builds that can run just the one shield and complement it with strong class heals and such.4 -
jlboozer✭✭✭✭✭
✭YesRemove shield stacking, buff hardened ward and/or give sorc some proportionate buff or utility to compensate. Sorc is nowhere near as strong as people make em out to be, a misconception rooted in ignorance of how sorcs function or the challenges the class has. But that being said, I want stacking removed (sans healing ward) cus id much rather run only one shield. Just as tedious as it is to fight shield stacks, shield stacking itself is tedious to have to do every few seconds in combat. Especially compared to the fluid defensive mechanics of stam builds.
That being said, the only reason I run harness is cus without it I'm at a huge disadvantage vs sorcs that do run it. Remove stacking, buff sorcs native defenses. If stacking is simply removed without compensation, sorcs will underperform compared to everything else. For exampl, builds that can run just the one shield and complement it with strong class heals and such.
This guy actually has a good idea...0 -
Chrlynsch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Shield stacking in all of its glory, has it's pros and cons just like everything in the game. They have to sacrifice an already small toolkit, if your going to stack full shields goodbye three slots.
What other option for survivability do they have? A pet that can be killed, and has a cast time to summon, and takes up two slots if you wanna run it? What other method would you suggest those in favor of a nerf suggest?
There are a handful of Sorcs out there that are truly beasts, then the copy cats builders that try to do what they do. The rest are pushovers if not running meta.
The true issue imo, is the fact that max stats scale ability damage as well as shields which means maximizing damage as well as survivability.
If you take away sheild stacking you have to give them a viable alternative for survivability.
I don't have a horse in this race. As I don't have issues against most sheild stackers, nor do I use one.Caius
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Unfadingsilence✭✭✭✭✭
✭NoThey should just make it to wear you can't reapply a shield without it actually dropping first that's all other then that there's nothing wrong with it "true it's just dumb when someone sits there and does a light attack, Shield, light attack another Shield, light attack, Crystal frag proc, Shield, light attack, Shield, light attack, meteor, frag proc, execute...... shield" other than that's it's fine just make it to where Fields cannot be reapplied until none of the shield has dropped or the time has lapsed OR just make Shield take crit damage GG and mean to put yes not no
Edited by Unfadingsilence on September 29, 2017 3:40AM0 -
IlCanis_LupuslI✭✭✭✭✭YesIf heavy armor didn't function as it does right now, I'd say that shield stacking in light armor is better than what medium armor is capable of. But most stamina players are using heavy armor for both burst and defense, only a few still try and use medium armor with mixed results.
The meta is to tank and heal until your cheap defensive ult is up, aside from a few niche builds Sorc is the only one doing this in light armor. But a Sorc isn't tanking the damage of 4 good players like a stamina build in heavy, they are using their mobility in conjunction with LOS and dark deal. I don't think there is a single Sorc out there currently capable of simply shielding to tank the damage of 4 good players applying cc and pressure, in the same way that a heavy armor stamina build can with hots. And this is something that Sorc used to be able to do very well in past patches for various reasons, when complaints of shield stacking were legitimate.
If you think otherwise feel free to make a Sorc and try for yourself. The only complaint I can even come close to understanding is that shield stacking vs medium armor tends to be unfair for medium armor, but ZOS doesn't seem to even care that medium armor is a thing.If heavy armor didn't function as it does right now, I'd say that shield stacking in light armor is better than what medium armor is capable of. But most stamina players are using heavy armor for both burst and defense, only a few still try and use medium armor with mixed results.
The meta is to tank and heal until your cheap defensive ult is up, aside from a few niche builds Sorc is the only one doing this in light armor. But a Sorc isn't tanking the damage of 4 good players like a stamina build in heavy, they are using their mobility in conjunction with LOS and dark deal. I don't think there is a single Sorc out there currently capable of simply shielding to tank the damage of 4 good players applying cc and pressure, in the same way that a heavy armor stamina build can with hots. And this is something that Sorc used to be able to do very well in past patches for various reasons, when complaints of shield stacking were legitimate.
If you think otherwise feel free to make a Sorc and try for yourself. The only complaint I can even come close to understanding is that shield stacking vs medium armor tends to be unfair for medium armor, but ZOS doesn't seem to even care that medium armor is a thing.
@OdinForge would u seriously call Magblade a “niche build“?? Cause all magblades(non Bomb) i know run light, many don't even use Shadow cloak cause dampen magic is so much better in defensive situations cause there are way less methods to counter it vs shadow cloak. And i only ein 1 shield back bar, so yes la+no shieldstacking does work pretty well.... Edited by IlCanis_LupuslI on September 29, 2017 5:08AM
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Sheezabeast✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yes, with a penaltyShield Stacking has already been nerfed once with the shortening of duration, but perhaps they should add a cost increase similar to the streak cost increase timer.Grand Master Crafter, Beta baby who grew with the game. PC/NA. @Sheezabeast if you have crafting needs!1 -
Slick_007✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yesif someone spends all their ability slots on shields, they are already being penalized by not having anything else there.3 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭OtherYea fine. Do it. You'll find another thing to complain about in no time. Next thing will be Endless Fury 4 second window that gets QQed about (actually it's already happening). Then Haunting Curse needs to go. Can't have Sorcs lining up burst. Oh and frags shouldn't get an instant proc. Let's make it a true cast time ability (Templar shows ZOS adores cast times). Did we just take away Annulment and morphs? Nevermind, Wards are still too strong. Let's cut them in half. Oh and Sorcs still can Streak. Let's increase the penalty for doing it repeatedly by 50% and the timer to 8 seconds.
And then, when every Sorc is a walking AP bag again, then maybe the QQ will stop. I wouldn't bet on it though as there are so many scrubs who are getting rekt by a mud crab.
My suggestion: Take away Annulment and morphs. Fine. But leave Healing Ward stackable and actually buff the class shield for noCP. Or reduce the effectiveness of Bastion. But you gotta give something in return, especially for noCP.Edited by Feanor on September 29, 2017 6:38AMMain characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.0 -
bardx86✭✭✭✭✭
✭YesKramUzibra wrote: »If heavy armor didn't function as it does right now, I'd say that shield stacking in light armor is better than what medium armor is capable of. But most stamina players are using heavy armor for both burst and defense, only a few still try and use medium armor with mixed results.
The meta is to tank and heal until your cheap defensive ult is up, aside from a few niche builds Sorc is the only one doing this in light armor. But a Sorc isn't tanking the damage of 4 good players like a stamina build in heavy, they are using their mobility in conjunction with LOS and dark deal. I don't think there is a single Sorc out there currently capable of simply shielding to tank the damage of 4 good players applying cc and pressure, in the same way that a heavy armor stamina build can with hots. And this is something that Sorc used to be able to do very well in past patches for various reasons, when complaints of shield stacking were legitimate.
If you think otherwise feel free to make a Sorc and try for yourself. The only complaint I can even come close to understanding is that shield stacking vs medium armor tends to be unfair for medium armor, but ZOS doesn't seem to even care that medium armor is a thing.
True but those heavy tankers lack the burst potential of a sorc. Sorcs have mobility, impenetrable shields, high dps/burst from any distance. Undodgeable range execute and if the sorc forgets to execute while target is in the execute window their passive implosion will take care of it for them. They are the all in one class. Sorcs need a rebalancing and penalizing sheilds might just be the solution.
huh? A speed potion is better mobility than a sorc that anyone can use, i do as a sorc as its way faster an uses less magic. Heavy tanks have plenty of burst, do you even PVP? The execute is totally dodgeable happens more than it lands.0 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Sheezabeast wrote: »Shield Stacking has already been nerfed once with the shortening of duration, but perhaps they should add a cost increase similar to the streak cost increase timer.
Sure thing, let sorcs be the only class with fatigue on class abilites. Or take your advice and apply it on every class defense like cloak, BoL, etc. No?0 -
Beardimus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭YesIt already has a HUGE penalty - resources.
Literally no Sorcs i know triple stack now its too costly for more than a couple of rotations.
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DRXHarbinger✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭NoBarely anyone of use actually does this, I lol at sorcs spamming ward and healing ward...all you need to do is wait. at the rate most of them go they are losing like 7k Magika each time. Just put a few hits on them, wait for the heavy resto they all seem to rely on, send a crushing shock over...repeat and after like 4 wards have been cast they won't have anything left to survive a bit of real pressure. just stop chasing them straight away and trying to hack them down instantly.
Although I am in favour of streak = cancels hardened ward, the real annoying part is the lich proc - potion and endless streak and ward spam due to being too cowardly to fight.PC Master Race
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Aurielle✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭YesIf we can't shield stack, I'd have to spend 1000 crowns on a name-change for my Argonian Warden.
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STEVIL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭OtherWhile mitigation continues to reduce all incoming damage from multiple sources, shields are not scaling upward against multiple opponents.
Stacking is one way to deal with that to a small degree and if stacking were removed those who depend on shields would just die horribly against more than one foe or at least fare a lot worse.
the trick of balancing strength vs one and strength vs 4 say in Bg is a tough thing to do.
but without a significant change to the shield vs mitigate dynamic, removing shield stacking is not going to be a positive change.
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OdinForge✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭OtherMangeli200194 wrote: »If heavy armor didn't function as it does right now, I'd say that shield stacking in light armor is better than what medium armor is capable of. But most stamina players are using heavy armor for both burst and defense, only a few still try and use medium armor with mixed results.
The meta is to tank and heal until your cheap defensive ult is up, aside from a few niche builds Sorc is the only one doing this in light armor. But a Sorc isn't tanking the damage of 4 good players like a stamina build in heavy, they are using their mobility in conjunction with LOS and dark deal. I don't think there is a single Sorc out there currently capable of simply shielding to tank the damage of 4 good players applying cc and pressure, in the same way that a heavy armor stamina build can with hots. And this is something that Sorc used to be able to do very well in past patches for various reasons, when complaints of shield stacking were legitimate.
If you think otherwise feel free to make a Sorc and try for yourself. The only complaint I can even come close to understanding is that shield stacking vs medium armor tends to be unfair for medium armor, but ZOS doesn't seem to even care that medium armor is a thing.If heavy armor didn't function as it does right now, I'd say that shield stacking in light armor is better than what medium armor is capable of. But most stamina players are using heavy armor for both burst and defense, only a few still try and use medium armor with mixed results.
The meta is to tank and heal until your cheap defensive ult is up, aside from a few niche builds Sorc is the only one doing this in light armor. But a Sorc isn't tanking the damage of 4 good players like a stamina build in heavy, they are using their mobility in conjunction with LOS and dark deal. I don't think there is a single Sorc out there currently capable of simply shielding to tank the damage of 4 good players applying cc and pressure, in the same way that a heavy armor stamina build can with hots. And this is something that Sorc used to be able to do very well in past patches for various reasons, when complaints of shield stacking were legitimate.
If you think otherwise feel free to make a Sorc and try for yourself. The only complaint I can even come close to understanding is that shield stacking vs medium armor tends to be unfair for medium armor, but ZOS doesn't seem to even care that medium armor is a thing.
@OdinForge would u seriously call Magblade a “niche build“?? Cause all magblades(non Bomb) i know run light, many don't even use Shadow cloak cause dampen magic is so much better in defensive situations cause there are way less methods to counter it vs shadow cloak. And i only ein 1 shield back bar, so yes la+no shieldstacking does work pretty well....
Yes I would actually. A magnb is only as strong as its enemies allow it to be, especially in light armor. The only time I'd use dampen over cloak is in a 1v1 type scenario, if you're using dampen over cloak in open world (and without healing ward as well) I highly doubt you're tanking damage outnumbered and surviving. A magnb in light armor survives not by "tanking" damage, but by being in the right position and being able to re-position before getting rooted and snared into oblivion.
For the record I do play magnb fairly often, with light armor too.Edited by OdinForge on September 29, 2017 1:31PMThe Age of Wrobel.0 -
socivL✭✭✭i'd like to see the over all damage of every class scaled back by something small, say like 30%.
sorc should get a "tiny" damage bump-up of 80%2 templars - 1 cup0 -
Biro123✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Yeskevlarto_ESO wrote: »nope unless all classes get to stack shields other wise l2p
All classes can already stack shields. l2p
Just to give a little comparison (talking magica)...
All classes get a shield as a supplementary defence (harness).
Sorcs have a large shield as their main class defence mechanism.
Templar gets a large heal
Magblade gets cloak (and plenty of passive heals)
Warden gets large heals (+ defensive tools)
DK gets wings, and, well, a lot of smaller stuff + passives to help with defence.
So. for Sorc's shield to NOT stack with harness - its only fair for other class's defensive mechanism's to not work with harness too?
So lets have a magblade's cloak disable harness and any class-based hots.
A Templars BoL cancel; harness as its cast.
Wardens heal cancel harness when cast
Wings cancelling harness when cast.
Fair's fair, right?
The point is that simply stopping stacking as a way to weaken sorc's defence shouldn't be done unless they get an alternative defence mechanism that can be used alongside harness - like every other class currently has (may not generally use that combination - but it's there).
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Biro123✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Yes*** sorry, double post ***
Edited by Biro123 on September 29, 2017 1:57PMMinalan owes me a beer.
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ParaNostram✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭YesShields aren't cheap and they go down in 1-2 hits on average. Unless you build for sustain, shield stacking will only delay the inevitable. Oh and let's not forget shields have already gotten a LOT of touch up. Let's see here... Cut in half in PvP? Check. Cut down to 6 seconds? Check."Your mistake is you begged for your life, not for mercy. I will show you there are many fates worse than death."
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technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ran into a sorc the other day on my Stam NB and at first he, went on the offensive but I just kept on him and could see him just recasting shields, until it appeared he just couldn't any more. It does seem like you can't touch them at first but if you have decent sustain and damage; it feels like you win in the long run. Sitting at ranged, you won't though. Thats what is good about them is they seem to have the best ranged burst and if you get in a zerg v zerg, its probably not a good idea to be in their face as you either will not have enough damage and sustain if you are tanky enough to take the focus, or you just won't be tanky enough to take the focus.
Same could happen with any class stacking shields although theye are more likely to be in your face also. Its a matter of who can pressure who the most.Edited by technohic on September 29, 2017 2:16PM1 -
Sweetpea704✭✭✭✭YesThere is already a penalty to shield stacking. It only lasts six seconds. They can save you in a pinch, but if you are spamming shields, you are not doing damage. Try Halls of Fabrication without stacking shields. You'll give your healers freaking Carpel Tunnel Syndrome spamming heals and purge and you'll flat out wipe if your healer is down. Also, I'm a sorc and it isn't like I am unkillable. Not sure what the problem is.1
