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Trading guilds, do you want automated financial reports?
Tracking who's paid weekly trading dues, at least on console, is laborious and time consuming. Larger trading guilds (250-500 members) currently spend a significant number of hours manually accounting for who has paid and who hasn't. A weekly, automated financial report could potentially serve as a substantial quality of life improvement by saving guild officers time.
This report could be simple. A guildmaster sets a time and day of the week for the fee deposit deadline. Shortly after the deadline passes, the report generates. It would be an alphabetical, color-coded list of all guild members. Green means a member has paid. Red means a member has not paid. Guild members names in green are good for the week. Guild members names in the red need reminding to pay or to be kicked.
The purpose of this poll is not to debate any technical barriers of this hypothetical guild tool, but to gauge the community's interest (or lack thereof) in the concept. So would you, or someone you know, benefit from automated financial reports?
Edited by Galenus_of_Pergamon on September 25, 2017 7:31PM This report could be simple. A guildmaster sets a time and day of the week for the fee deposit deadline. Shortly after the deadline passes, the report generates. It would be an alphabetical, color-coded list of all guild members. Green means a member has paid. Red means a member has not paid. Guild members names in green are good for the week. Guild members names in the red need reminding to pay or to be kicked.
The purpose of this poll is not to debate any technical barriers of this hypothetical guild tool, but to gauge the community's interest (or lack thereof) in the concept. So would you, or someone you know, benefit from automated financial reports?
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Trading guilds, do you want automated financial reports? 46 votes
Yes, adding automated, weekly financial reports is a good idea for trading guilds. It will make leading trading guilds less intensive and mundane. GMs can kick their feet up a little more.
89%
41 votes
No, adding automated, weekly financial reports is a poor idea for trading guilds. It would let cash cow guildmasters to work even less. Running a successful trading guild should be intensive.
4%
2 votes
Other, I hold an opinion different than the two above (please do especify).
6%
3 votes
0
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MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yes, adding automated, weekly financial reports is a good idea for trading guilds. It will make leading trading guilds less intensive and mundane. GMs can kick their feet up a little more.This should absolutely be a feature. If they don't want to add an auction house, then they need to make the trader system more usable.
It's manageable on PC with add-ons, but it must be a nightmare on console.Edited by MLGProPlayer on September 25, 2017 7:53PM2 -
Yes, adding automated, weekly financial reports is a good idea for trading guilds. It will make leading trading guilds less intensive and mundane. GMs can kick their feet up a little more.members should get one too that shows overall guild tax income, personal taxes paid per sale and a overall income. would help members decide on if the guild is benefiting them personally as opposed to other guilds.4
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Yes, adding automated, weekly financial reports is a good idea for trading guilds. It will make leading trading guilds less intensive and mundane. GMs can kick their feet up a little more.Saint314Louis1985 wrote: »members should get one too that shows overall guild tax income, personal taxes paid per sale and a overall income. would help members decide on if the guild is benefiting them personally as opposed to other guilds.
Great idea St. Louis!14 AD Characters all 730CP+ (more info coming soon)
Vivat Veritas0 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yes, adding automated, weekly financial reports is a good idea for trading guilds. It will make leading trading guilds less intensive and mundane. GMs can kick their feet up a little more.Saint314Louis1985 wrote: »members should get one too that shows overall guild tax income, personal taxes paid per sale and a overall income. would help members decide on if the guild is benefiting them personally as opposed to other guilds.
This too.
Again, add-ons on PC show you your sales per guild, but that's not available on console. We also lost the ability to track our donations last patch as guilds can now block their bank view (which makes sense, but players still need to be able to see their own deposits).0 -
Yes, adding automated, weekly financial reports is a good idea for trading guilds. It will make leading trading guilds less intensive and mundane. GMs can kick their feet up a little more.*Bump*
I would love if we could get a large audience to vote on this because it may make ZOS raise an eyebrow.
Who knows? They very well could add automated financial reports if we stand as one voice.
ZOS listened to us and added a new guild permission to "view guild bank gold" to prevent bank spying.
They may be willing to listen again! Cast your vote now regardless of opinion!Edited by Galenus_of_Pergamon on September 26, 2017 3:46PM14 AD Characters all 730CP+ (more info coming soon)
Vivat Veritas0 -
Cryptical✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes, adding automated, weekly financial reports is a good idea for trading guilds. It will make leading trading guilds less intensive and mundane. GMs can kick their feet up a little more.I guarantee this would be welcomed with cheers and huzzahs and some dancing by the guild staff.Xbox NA0 -
LadyNalcarya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yes, adding automated, weekly financial reports is a good idea for trading guilds. It will make leading trading guilds less intensive and mundane. GMs can kick their feet up a little more.Console players dont have access to addons, and it would be a great QoL improvement for them (both GMs and guild members). PC guilds usually require certain amount of sales OR a donation, but on consoles its almost impossible to track the sales so they have to request donations anyway.Dro-m'Athra Destroyer | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Voice of Reason
PC/EU0 -
OutLaw_Nynx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Yes, adding automated, weekly financial reports is a good idea for trading guilds. It will make leading trading guilds less intensive and mundane. GMs can kick their feet up a little more.Sure why not.0 -
Korah_Eaglecry✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Yes, adding automated, weekly financial reports is a good idea for trading guilds. It will make leading trading guilds less intensive and mundane. GMs can kick their feet up a little more.Im all for more QoL additions to Guilds. They are probably some of the most lackluster parts of the game right now. With Guild Leaders working overtime, on top of their already busy IRL lives, to make sure these communities run smoothly.Penniless Sellsword CompanyCaptain Paramount - Jorrhaq VhentKorith Eaglecry * Enrerion Aedihle * Laerinel Rhaev * Caius Berilius * Seylina Ithvala * H'Vak the GrimjawlTenarei Rhaev * Dazsh Ro Khar * Yynril Rothvani * Bathes-In-Coin * Anaelle Faerniil * Azjani Ma'LesAban Shahid Bakr * Kheshna gra-Gharbuk * Gallisten Bondurant * Etain Maquier * Atsu Kalame * Faulpia SeverinusWhat is better, to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort? - Paarthurnax1 -
SirAndy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yes, adding automated, weekly financial reports is a good idea for trading guilds. It will make leading trading guilds less intensive and mundane. GMs can kick their feet up a little more.Not just useful for trading guilds, i'd like to see something like that for my guild as well ...
Edited by SirAndy on September 26, 2017 5:16PM2 -
Whiphid✭✭✭✭Seems like a good thing.
If the guild members also get a weekly report stating the guild tax income, guild fee/donation income and money spent on a trader. There's a few too many guilds here on console that are not very honest about the money. Especially now with the "hide bank gold" option.One land! One Emperor! Who among you will stand with me?
PS4/EU - Breton Sorcerer / Breton Healplar / Khajiit Stamblade / Khajiit Stamplar / Altmer SorcTank
Grand Master Crafter and Guild Master of the Aetherium Alliance.1 -
Artis✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes, adding automated, weekly financial reports is a good idea for trading guilds. It will make leading trading guilds less intensive and mundane. GMs can kick their feet up a little more.Seems like a good thing.
If the guild members also get a weekly report stating the guild tax income, guild fee/donation income and money spent on a trader. There's a few too many guilds here on console that are not very honest about the money. Especially now with the "hide bank gold" option.
Are you trolling? All members knowing the bid = next week the trader will be lost to a guild that will bid just a tiny bit higher.
I mean I would pay you gold if you told me that information that you listed about another guild. And what you suggest is that I can get it from one of 500 members or just join that guild and get a report myself. You serious?
If you don't think what you donate is worth it for you - either make it worth it or leave the guild. It's frankly the only thing that should bother you. It's really none of your concern if the guild is getting a bit more gold than absolutely needed (maybe they are saving up to afford higher bids anyway). Count your money, not what's in the bank. Again, you are free to even create your own guild and invest time, effort and your own gold if you'd like, otherwise not sure what your problem is EVEN if they used gold for themselves, as long as they provide you with a trader as promised and you think what you contribute is worth it.Edited by Artis on September 26, 2017 6:19PM3 -
Yes, adding automated, weekly financial reports is a good idea for trading guilds. It will make leading trading guilds less intensive and mundane. GMs can kick their feet up a little more.Seems like a good thing.
If the guild members also get a weekly report stating the guild tax income, guild fee/donation income and money spent on a trader. There's a few too many guilds here on console that are not very honest about the money. Especially now with the "hide bank gold" option.
Are you trolling? All members knowing the bid = next week the trader will be lost to a guild that will bid just a tiny bit higher.
I mean I would pay you gold if you told me that information that you listed about another guild. And what you suggest is that I can get it from one of 500 members or just join that guild and get a report myself. You serious?
If you don't think what you donate is worth it for you - either make it worth it or leave the guild. It's frankly the only thing that should bother you. It's really none of your concern if the guild is getting a bit more gold than absolutely needed (maybe they are saving up to afford higher bids anyway). Count your money, not what's in the bank. Again, you are free to even create your own guild and invest time, effort and your own gold if you'd like, otherwise not sure what your problem is EVEN if they used gold for themselves, as long as they provide you with a trader as promised and you think what you contribute is worth it.
transparency should matter. people may choose different guilds if it is clear that the leaders are pocketing massive amounts of gold for themselves. also, if the guild is making enough for trader bids purely on taxes alone, members could demand that donations be lowered or could leave. it would benefit the members not just the leaders.1 -
Sneaky-Snurr✭✭✭✭✭Yes, adding automated, weekly financial reports is a good idea for trading guilds. It will make leading trading guilds less intensive and mundane. GMs can kick their feet up a little more.I don't see why not.The Order of the Shadows: Nightmare
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EP CP810 Nightblade
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AD CP810 Templar
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AD CP810 Dragon Knight
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AD Lvl 25 Sorceror
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DC Lvl 23 Nightblade
Shadow hide you. -Unknown
There is no clean fight in a war. -Shun Izaki0 -
Orjix✭✭✭✭Yes, adding automated, weekly financial reports is a good idea for trading guilds. It will make leading trading guilds less intensive and mundane. GMs can kick their feet up a little more.Seems like a pretty solid idea, I like it and it can be a good reminder to you if you forgot to pay for the week0 -
Whiphid✭✭✭✭Saint314Louis1985 wrote: »Seems like a good thing.
If the guild members also get a weekly report stating the guild tax income, guild fee/donation income and money spent on a trader. There's a few too many guilds here on console that are not very honest about the money. Especially now with the "hide bank gold" option.
Are you trolling? All members knowing the bid = next week the trader will be lost to a guild that will bid just a tiny bit higher.
I mean I would pay you gold if you told me that information that you listed about another guild. And what you suggest is that I can get it from one of 500 members or just join that guild and get a report myself. You serious?
If you don't think what you donate is worth it for you - either make it worth it or leave the guild. It's frankly the only thing that should bother you. It's really none of your concern if the guild is getting a bit more gold than absolutely needed (maybe they are saving up to afford higher bids anyway). Count your money, not what's in the bank. Again, you are free to even create your own guild and invest time, effort and your own gold if you'd like, otherwise not sure what your problem is EVEN if they used gold for themselves, as long as they provide you with a trader as promised and you think what you contribute is worth it.
transparency should matter. people may choose different guilds if it is clear that the leaders are pocketing massive amounts of gold for themselves. also, if the guild is making enough for trader bids purely on taxes alone, members could demand that donations be lowered or could leave. it would benefit the members not just the leaders.
Not trolling, but transparency is key here. There's GMs that are pocketing more than "a little gold on the side". Members should be aware of how a guild is running, without just listening to wild stories of how a trader costs more than seven figures.
Compromise: Maybe not report the actual amount paid for a trader, if we are worried about spies. The weekly report could just be the gold difference between the total income and the money spent on a trader. If members see there's a net profit of several millions, maybe the "membership fee" doesn't need to be cranked up to 10K a week, or they could decide to leave. It would also work the other way around, if members see the guild could use some more money to ensure their position, they'd be willing to donate some extra cash.
True, we might make more money than the fee, but it's only fair if all the cards are on the table. If you want easy tracking of who made how much money for the guild, we want to see how much the guild benefits from its members. Cant have your cake and eat it too. The guild may provide a service in the form of a trader, but the whole system is completely broken on console. Too much shenanigans with dummy guilds, odd gold streams, guilds being sold, etc.One land! One Emperor! Who among you will stand with me?
PS4/EU - Breton Sorcerer / Breton Healplar / Khajiit Stamblade / Khajiit Stamplar / Altmer SorcTank
Grand Master Crafter and Guild Master of the Aetherium Alliance.0 -
disintegr8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Yes, adding automated, weekly financial reports is a good idea for trading guilds. It will make leading trading guilds less intensive and mundane. GMs can kick their feet up a little more.I think anything that makes a trading guild easier to run well is a good thing.
A couple of comments from me on related topics raised here if I may.
I am all for an open and transparent guild where nothing is hidden from members and dislike the new feature allowing you to block members from seeing bank gold. However, I am aware that not all members are what they seem to be and seeing how much a guild has bid, or is bidding, on a trader can be relayed to the competition. As I don't have any other solution, I am prepared to live with the current setup until an alternative arrives.
Limited report access for all members could be a good thing, especially on console where we do not have access to any add on programs. Reports that tell what has been sold, how many, high/low prices, average price, maybe peak sales times, etc., would be a great aid for maximizing your sales and potential profit. This should not contain any specifics about who did the selling or who made the most gold, that is no business of other members.
What I don't think all members need are 'gold' reports (who deposited/withdrew what gold from the bank) or 'inventory' reports (who deposited/withdrew what items from the bank). This is for the guild master and their delegates to monitor and manage, not for all members to view and start witchhunts on.
Being in a guild requires you to have some trust and faith in the people running the guild. If you are worried about whether anyone else is ripping you off or stealing/skimming from the guild bank, either approach the guild master about it or leave the guild and move on.
I would hazard a guess that people who are worried if someone is stealing from the guild are going to be suspicious in any guild they are in. The only solution for them is to start and run their own guild - if they are prepared to make the effort.Australian on PS4 NA server.
Everyone's entitled to an opinion.0 -
Yes, adding automated, weekly financial reports is a good idea for trading guilds. It will make leading trading guilds less intensive and mundane. GMs can kick their feet up a little more.Saint314Louis1985 wrote: »Seems like a good thing.
If the guild members also get a weekly report stating the guild tax income, guild fee/donation income and money spent on a trader. There's a few too many guilds here on console that are not very honest about the money. Especially now with the "hide bank gold" option.
Are you trolling? All members knowing the bid = next week the trader will be lost to a guild that will bid just a tiny bit higher.
I mean I would pay you gold if you told me that information that you listed about another guild. And what you suggest is that I can get it from one of 500 members or just join that guild and get a report myself. You serious?
If you don't think what you donate is worth it for you - either make it worth it or leave the guild. It's frankly the only thing that should bother you. It's really none of your concern if the guild is getting a bit more gold than absolutely needed (maybe they are saving up to afford higher bids anyway). Count your money, not what's in the bank. Again, you are free to even create your own guild and invest time, effort and your own gold if you'd like, otherwise not sure what your problem is EVEN if they used gold for themselves, as long as they provide you with a trader as promised and you think what you contribute is worth it.
transparency should matter. people may choose different guilds if it is clear that the leaders are pocketing massive amounts of gold for themselves. also, if the guild is making enough for trader bids purely on taxes alone, members could demand that donations be lowered or could leave. it would benefit the members not just the leaders.
Not trolling, but transparency is key here. There's GMs that are pocketing more than "a little gold on the side". Members should be aware of how a guild is running, without just listening to wild stories of how a trader costs more than seven figures.
Compromise: Maybe not report the actual amount paid for a trader, if we are worried about spies. The weekly report could just be the gold difference between the total income and the money spent on a trader. If members see there's a net profit of several millions, maybe the "membership fee" doesn't need to be cranked up to 10K a week, or they could decide to leave. It would also work the other way around, if members see the guild could use some more money to ensure their position, they'd be willing to donate some extra cash.
True, we might make more money than the fee, but it's only fair if all the cards are on the table. If you want easy tracking of who made how much money for the guild, we want to see how much the guild benefits from its members. Cant have your cake and eat it too. The guild may provide a service in the form of a trader, but the whole system is completely broken on console. Too much shenanigans with dummy guilds, odd gold streams, guilds being sold, etc.
Indeed, for non-leadership members, a weekly report of the guild's total net income (trader cost/(dues + sales taxes)) as a percentage could reveal how profitable a guild is.
A figure (of net income) for an individual guild member would be great too. This can be calculated manually, but it takes some time if you sell a lot of items.
An interesting question arises from this. If a massively profitable (to its trading members) trading guild has leaders that spend 25+ hours per week administering the guild, is it fair for them to take a salary? If so, what percentage. They're essentially working part time jobs managing the guild and enforcing dues.
Edited by Galenus_of_Pergamon on September 28, 2017 1:53PM14 AD Characters all 730CP+ (more info coming soon)
Vivat Veritas3 -
Artis✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes, adding automated, weekly financial reports is a good idea for trading guilds. It will make leading trading guilds less intensive and mundane. GMs can kick their feet up a little more.Saint314Louis1985 wrote: »Seems like a good thing.
If the guild members also get a weekly report stating the guild tax income, guild fee/donation income and money spent on a trader. There's a few too many guilds here on console that are not very honest about the money. Especially now with the "hide bank gold" option.
Are you trolling? All members knowing the bid = next week the trader will be lost to a guild that will bid just a tiny bit higher.
I mean I would pay you gold if you told me that information that you listed about another guild. And what you suggest is that I can get it from one of 500 members or just join that guild and get a report myself. You serious?
If you don't think what you donate is worth it for you - either make it worth it or leave the guild. It's frankly the only thing that should bother you. It's really none of your concern if the guild is getting a bit more gold than absolutely needed (maybe they are saving up to afford higher bids anyway). Count your money, not what's in the bank. Again, you are free to even create your own guild and invest time, effort and your own gold if you'd like, otherwise not sure what your problem is EVEN if they used gold for themselves, as long as they provide you with a trader as promised and you think what you contribute is worth it.
transparency should matter. people may choose different guilds if it is clear that the leaders are pocketing massive amounts of gold for themselves. also, if the guild is making enough for trader bids purely on taxes alone, members could demand that donations be lowered or could leave. it would benefit the members not just the leaders.
I would love to see how that works. If you are right - in a few months we will see it. Players will leave guild that hide gold and join guilds that show gold. Right? Wrong. They will be in guilds that hold top traders. Guild that will tell how much they spend where and how much they bid - will lose bids and won't hold traders.Compromise: Maybe not report the actual amount paid for a trader, if we are worried about spies. The weekly report could just be the gold difference between the total income and the money spent on a trader. If members see there's a net profit of several millions, maybe the "membership fee" doesn't need to be cranked up to 10K a week, or they could decide to leave. It would also work the other way around, if members see the guild could use some more money to ensure their position, they'd be willing to donate some extra cash.
True, we might make more money than the fee, but it's only fair if all the cards are on the table. If you want easy tracking of who made how much money for the guild, we want to see how much the guild benefits from its members. Cant have your cake and eat it too. The guild may provide a service in the form of a trader, but the whole system is completely broken on console. Too much shenanigans with dummy guilds, odd gold streams, guilds being sold, etc.
I'm sorry but it still seems to be trolling. Are you running a trading guild? Or have you tried? I assure you that a trader can cost more than 7 figures.
And seeing the net profit is all you need. Then you check out the sales on MM and you're all set to start trying to outbid this guild. Bonus points for being present at all auctions if there are any.0 -
Yes, adding automated, weekly financial reports is a good idea for trading guilds. It will make leading trading guilds less intensive and mundane. GMs can kick their feet up a little more.Saint314Louis1985 wrote: »Seems like a good thing.
If the guild members also get a weekly report stating the guild tax income, guild fee/donation income and money spent on a trader. There's a few too many guilds here on console that are not very honest about the money. Especially now with the "hide bank gold" option.
Are you trolling? All members knowing the bid = next week the trader will be lost to a guild that will bid just a tiny bit higher.
I mean I would pay you gold if you told me that information that you listed about another guild. And what you suggest is that I can get it from one of 500 members or just join that guild and get a report myself. You serious?
If you don't think what you donate is worth it for you - either make it worth it or leave the guild. It's frankly the only thing that should bother you. It's really none of your concern if the guild is getting a bit more gold than absolutely needed (maybe they are saving up to afford higher bids anyway). Count your money, not what's in the bank. Again, you are free to even create your own guild and invest time, effort and your own gold if you'd like, otherwise not sure what your problem is EVEN if they used gold for themselves, as long as they provide you with a trader as promised and you think what you contribute is worth it.
transparency should matter. people may choose different guilds if it is clear that the leaders are pocketing massive amounts of gold for themselves. also, if the guild is making enough for trader bids purely on taxes alone, members could demand that donations be lowered or could leave. it would benefit the members not just the leaders.
I would love to see how that works. If you are right - in a few months we will see it. Players will leave guild that hide gold and join guilds that show gold. Right? Wrong. They will be in guilds that hold top traders. Guild that will tell how much they spend where and how much they bid - will lose bids and won't hold traders.Compromise: Maybe not report the actual amount paid for a trader, if we are worried about spies. The weekly report could just be the gold difference between the total income and the money spent on a trader. If members see there's a net profit of several millions, maybe the "membership fee" doesn't need to be cranked up to 10K a week, or they could decide to leave. It would also work the other way around, if members see the guild could use some more money to ensure their position, they'd be willing to donate some extra cash.
True, we might make more money than the fee, but it's only fair if all the cards are on the table. If you want easy tracking of who made how much money for the guild, we want to see how much the guild benefits from its members. Cant have your cake and eat it too. The guild may provide a service in the form of a trader, but the whole system is completely broken on console. Too much shenanigans with dummy guilds, odd gold streams, guilds being sold, etc.
I'm sorry but it still seems to be trolling. Are you running a trading guild? Or have you tried? I assure you that a trader can cost more than 7 figures.
And seeing the net profit is all you need. Then you check out the sales on MM and you're all set to start trying to outbid this guild. Bonus points for being present at all auctions if there are any.
I agree. Why do all "cards need to be on the table" if everyone in the guild (all 500 members) are seeing a significant return on their investment of weekly trader dues?
If I pay 15k weekly in dues, and net 150k in profit from sales, then the return on my investment (ROI) is 1000%
Receiving such a huge (10-fold) ROI as a rank and file member, I don't care if the GMs are skimming off the top because they're putting in the hard work to keep the ship afloat.
That's just my personal opinion.
/rant14 AD Characters all 730CP+ (more info coming soon)
Vivat Veritas2 -
Artis✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes, adding automated, weekly financial reports is a good idea for trading guilds. It will make leading trading guilds less intensive and mundane. GMs can kick their feet up a little more.I'll tell you even more, talking about the entire guild sales it's not about the ratio in this case, it's about the absolute difference.
Example:
Guild 1 spends 10k on a trader and sells 1 million weekly. 100 times more than they invest.
Guild 2 spends 10 million and sells 20 million. Only 2 times more than they invest.
However, the income of the first guild is 990k and the income of the second guild is 10 mil. That's the only number that matters in the end.0 -
Balamoor✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes, adding automated, weekly financial reports is a good idea for trading guilds. It will make leading trading guilds less intensive and mundane. GMs can kick their feet up a little more.Please.
Anything that makes the TG's easier to manage.2 -
Yes, adding automated, weekly financial reports is a good idea for trading guilds. It will make leading trading guilds less intensive and mundane. GMs can kick their feet up a little more.I'll tell you even more, talking about the entire guild sales it's not about the ratio in this case, it's about the absolute difference.
Example:
Guild 1 spends 10k on a trader and sells 1 million weekly. 100 times more than they invest.
Guild 2 spends 10 million and sells 20 million. Only 2 times more than they invest.
However, the income of the first guild is 990k and the income of the second guild is 10 mil. That's the only number that matters in the end.
The purpose of the theoretical ratio is determining GM (and senior officers) profit margins, if implemented properly.
Agreed, absolute numbers are more valuable in determining overall profitability. However, this is a slippery slope. Report the "absolute" guild trader cost, or even the "absolute difference between costs and sales" and you open up the possibility of trader spying by means of reverse engineering sales using the sales log.
Absolute difference is the optimal solution to determining overall profitability, but it poses some back door security risks. Some guilds will go to great extends to emerge the prevailing party in a turf war. I've seen senseless and elaborate corruption all for the sake of obtaining the holy mecca trading posts.
The immorality is real
That's why I vouch for the ratio on the trader's report rather than the absolute number and/or difference.
GM reports should just be a quick and easy to spot non-compliance of fee remittance (payment) rather than manually scrolling through hundreds of pages and creating ever changing Excel Spreadsheets.Edited by Galenus_of_Pergamon on September 28, 2017 7:10PM14 AD Characters all 730CP+ (more info coming soon)
Vivat Veritas1 -
Artis✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes, adding automated, weekly financial reports is a good idea for trading guilds. It will make leading trading guilds less intensive and mundane. GMs can kick their feet up a little more.Galenus_of_Pergamon wrote: »I'll tell you even more, talking about the entire guild sales it's not about the ratio in this case, it's about the absolute difference.
Example:
Guild 1 spends 10k on a trader and sells 1 million weekly. 100 times more than they invest.
Guild 2 spends 10 million and sells 20 million. Only 2 times more than they invest.
However, the income of the first guild is 990k and the income of the second guild is 10 mil. That's the only number that matters in the end.
The purpose of the theoretical ratio is determining GM (and senior officers) profit margins, if implemented properly.
Agreed, absolute numbers are more valuable in determining overall profitability. However, this is a slippery slope. Report the "absolute" guild trader cost, or even the "absolute difference between costs and sales" and you open up the possibility of trader spying by means of reverse engineering sales using the sales log.
Absolute difference is the optimal solution to determining overall profitability, but it poses some back door security risks. Some guilds will go to great extends to emerge the prevailing party in a turf war. I've seen senseless and elaborate corruption all for the sake of obtaining the holy mecca trading posts.
The immorality is real
That's why I vouch for the ratio on the trader's report rather than the absolute number and/or difference.
GM reports should just be a quick and easy to spot non-compliance of fee remittance (payment) rather than manually scrolling through hundreds of pages and creating ever changing Excel Spreadsheets.
Ehhh what? That's the same thing what to report. In once case you need add things to calculate the bid, in the other case you need to multiply. Difference or ratio - doesn't matter. In your scenario if gives the possibility of spying or reverse engineering, so does the other one.
The comment and example were to make a point that you would need to use the difference to decide if you want to be in the guild or leave, not ratio, like somebody was suggesting. And as a GM you would use that, not ratio, to decide if you need to raise the requirements, btw.Galenus_of_Pergamon wrote: »Indeed, for non-leadership members, a weekly report of the guild's total net income (trader cost/(dues + sales taxes)) as a percentage could reveal how profitable a guild is.
A figure (of net income) for an individual guild member would be great too. This can be calculated manually, but it takes some time if you sell a lot of items.
Found it. This is what has been said and why I mentioned difference vs percentage. Percentage doesn't show how profitable a guild is, difference does. In fact, some of the dues can be mailed and such which makes the formula even less useful in practice, even not considering the fact that the approach itself is wrong (percentage instead of difference that is).
Edited by Artis on September 28, 2017 8:13PM0 -
Yes, adding automated, weekly financial reports is a good idea for trading guilds. It will make leading trading guilds less intensive and mundane. GMs can kick their feet up a little more.Galenus_of_Pergamon wrote: »I'll tell you even more, talking about the entire guild sales it's not about the ratio in this case, it's about the absolute difference.
Example:
Guild 1 spends 10k on a trader and sells 1 million weekly. 100 times more than they invest.
Guild 2 spends 10 million and sells 20 million. Only 2 times more than they invest.
However, the income of the first guild is 990k and the income of the second guild is 10 mil. That's the only number that matters in the end.
The purpose of the theoretical ratio is determining GM (and senior officers) profit margins, if implemented properly.
Agreed, absolute numbers are more valuable in determining overall profitability. However, this is a slippery slope. Report the "absolute" guild trader cost, or even the "absolute difference between costs and sales" and you open up the possibility of trader spying by means of reverse engineering sales using the sales log.
Absolute difference is the optimal solution to determining overall profitability, but it poses some back door security risks. Some guilds will go to great extends to emerge the prevailing party in a turf war. I've seen senseless and elaborate corruption all for the sake of obtaining the holy mecca trading posts.
The immorality is real
That's why I vouch for the ratio on the trader's report rather than the absolute number and/or difference.
GM reports should just be a quick and easy to spot non-compliance of fee remittance (payment) rather than manually scrolling through hundreds of pages and creating ever changing Excel Spreadsheets.
Ehhh what? That's the same thing what to report. In once case you need add things to calculate the bid, in the other case you need to multiply. Difference or ratio - doesn't matter. In your scenario if gives the possibility of spying or reverse engineering, so does the other one.
The comment and example were to make a point that you would need to use the difference to decide if you want to be in the guild or leave, not ratio, like somebody was suggesting. And as a GM you would use that, not ratio, to decide if you need to raise the requirements, btw.
Ratios are generalizations of datasets. Absolute numbers are specific components of datasets. Performing analyses and reverse engineering on abstract concepts and figures is generally more challenging than doing so with concrete numbers and figures. We may be arguing apples and oranges. My discussion aims to purport a way of informing trading members of their individuals profits while maintaining the privacy of the bidding figures.
You seem to be advocating for a report to provide trading guildmasters a way to adjust dues based on incoming and outgoing funds. I think this is a great idea.14 AD Characters all 730CP+ (more info coming soon)
Vivat Veritas1 -
Yes, adding automated, weekly financial reports is a good idea for trading guilds. It will make leading trading guilds less intensive and mundane. GMs can kick their feet up a little more.My main point, without getting sidetracked, is that trading guild GMs would have a lot of their lives back (even if it's doing other things in ESO) if ESO would automatically tell them who has, and who has not. paid their dues for the week. This would prevent log searching. Maybe it even goes as far as ESO generating in-game messages reminding players that their trading fees are due.
Mastercard and Visa certainly have no objections to this XD
Quality of Life improvements for members' due tracking my primary desire for this poll. But, don't get me wrong, the other ideas mentioned sound great too!14 AD Characters all 730CP+ (more info coming soon)
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Whiphid✭✭✭✭Saint314Louis1985 wrote: »Seems like a good thing.
If the guild members also get a weekly report stating the guild tax income, guild fee/donation income and money spent on a trader. There's a few too many guilds here on console that are not very honest about the money. Especially now with the "hide bank gold" option.
Are you trolling? All members knowing the bid = next week the trader will be lost to a guild that will bid just a tiny bit higher.
I mean I would pay you gold if you told me that information that you listed about another guild. And what you suggest is that I can get it from one of 500 members or just join that guild and get a report myself. You serious?
If you don't think what you donate is worth it for you - either make it worth it or leave the guild. It's frankly the only thing that should bother you. It's really none of your concern if the guild is getting a bit more gold than absolutely needed (maybe they are saving up to afford higher bids anyway). Count your money, not what's in the bank. Again, you are free to even create your own guild and invest time, effort and your own gold if you'd like, otherwise not sure what your problem is EVEN if they used gold for themselves, as long as they provide you with a trader as promised and you think what you contribute is worth it.
transparency should matter. people may choose different guilds if it is clear that the leaders are pocketing massive amounts of gold for themselves. also, if the guild is making enough for trader bids purely on taxes alone, members could demand that donations be lowered or could leave. it would benefit the members not just the leaders.
I would love to see how that works. If you are right - in a few months we will see it. Players will leave guild that hide gold and join guilds that show gold. Right? Wrong. They will be in guilds that hold top traders. Guild that will tell how much they spend where and how much they bid - will lose bids and won't hold traders.Compromise: Maybe not report the actual amount paid for a trader, if we are worried about spies. The weekly report could just be the gold difference between the total income and the money spent on a trader. If members see there's a net profit of several millions, maybe the "membership fee" doesn't need to be cranked up to 10K a week, or they could decide to leave. It would also work the other way around, if members see the guild could use some more money to ensure their position, they'd be willing to donate some extra cash.
True, we might make more money than the fee, but it's only fair if all the cards are on the table. If you want easy tracking of who made how much money for the guild, we want to see how much the guild benefits from its members. Cant have your cake and eat it too. The guild may provide a service in the form of a trader, but the whole system is completely broken on console. Too much shenanigans with dummy guilds, odd gold streams, guilds being sold, etc.
I'm sorry but it still seems to be trolling. Are you running a trading guild? Or have you tried? I assure you that a trader can cost more than 7 figures.
And seeing the net profit is all you need. Then you check out the sales on MM and you're all set to start trying to outbid this guild. Bonus points for being present at all auctions if there are any.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all in favor of any decent GM that wants to make the burden more bearable, and I understand where you are coming from. But are you aware of the situation on PS4 at least? Believe me, there are many players here that have no need for easier market manipulation and whatever schemes. Same with things like global search, however much I'd like that feature, I fear it will completely destroy our market. At least now it requires some work.One land! One Emperor! Who among you will stand with me?
PS4/EU - Breton Sorcerer / Breton Healplar / Khajiit Stamblade / Khajiit Stamplar / Altmer SorcTank
Grand Master Crafter and Guild Master of the Aetherium Alliance.0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Other, I hold an opinion different than the two above (please do especify).Galenus_of_Pergamon wrote: »*Bump*
I would love if we could get a large audience to vote on this because it may make ZOS raise an eyebrow.
A lot of us are probably so disgusted with the idea of trading guilds to begin with....and expecting members to pay dues and taxes that we don't care one way or the other.
You can add me to that camp.
That being said, I can understand why this is done under the current system. So it's more a criticism of the system itself and not of the guilds personally.
Edited by Jeremy on September 28, 2017 11:14PM0 -
Artis✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes, adding automated, weekly financial reports is a good idea for trading guilds. It will make leading trading guilds less intensive and mundane. GMs can kick their feet up a little more.
wth are you talking about? You said that if the absolute difference is known you can calculate the bid using the sales in MM. How will you do that? Show me the equation. Isn't it (Sales - absolute_difference) = bid? Well then in the same manner sales/ratio=bid.Galenus_of_Pergamon wrote: »
Ratios are generalizations of datasets. Absolute numbers are specific components of datasets. Performing analyses and reverse engineering on abstract concepts and figures is generally more challenging than doing so with concrete numbers and figures. We may be arguing apples and oranges. My discussion aims to purport a way of informing trading members of their individuals profits while maintaining the privacy of the bidding figures.
You seem to be advocating for a report to provide trading guildmasters a way to adjust dues based on incoming and outgoing funds. I think this is a great idea.
Or explain yourself better. How will you calculate the bid knowing the difference between sales and bid, but won't calculate knowing the ration between sales and bid? We aren't arguing apples and oranges. We are arguing math and numbers right now.
I'm not trying to say that your experiences are wrong. What you're saying could be happening. I don't know if it is. It could also be happening on PC. The only thing I know is that I'm not doing this. All I want is to have a good guild with a good trader and if it loses a trader - I know why. Like they say - if you want something done, do it yourself. But of course I still want to play the game, and I don't have to be spending all my time raising gold or begging people for gold. That's why dues. If you are in my team and want to help - do it, if not - I'll replace you with whoever wants to support the cause, no hurt feelings or anything personal. Yeah my guild does have auctions and such thanks to awesome members and officers who volunteer, but even then - they are just an excuse to let you contribute. They shouldn't have to do those things. And if some gold stays - good for everyone. Maybe I can bid on a better trader in the future. You definitely shouldn't know what gold balance is - this information could lead to death of the guild.Don't get me wrong, I'm all in favor of any decent GM that wants to make the burden more bearable, and I understand where you are coming from. But are you aware of the situation on PS4 at least? Believe me, there are many players here that have no need for easier market manipulation and whatever schemes. Same with things like global search, however much I'd like that feature, I fear it will completely destroy our market. At least now it requires some work.
I'm more than anyone would love not to put any time into managing the guild and not to have to count who paid and who didn't. But the system is what it is.0 -
Yes, adding automated, weekly financial reports is a good idea for trading guilds. It will make leading trading guilds less intensive and mundane. GMs can kick their feet up a little more.
wth are you talking about? You said that if the absolute difference is known you can calculate the bid using the sales in MM. How will you do that? Show me the equation. Isn't it (Sales - absolute_difference) = bid? Well then in the same manner sales/ratio=bid.Galenus_of_Pergamon wrote: »
Ratios are generalizations of datasets. Absolute numbers are specific components of datasets. Performing analyses and reverse engineering on abstract concepts and figures is generally more challenging than doing so with concrete numbers and figures. We may be arguing apples and oranges. My discussion aims to purport a way of informing trading members of their individuals profits while maintaining the privacy of the bidding figures.
You seem to be advocating for a report to provide trading guildmasters a way to adjust dues based on incoming and outgoing funds. I think this is a great idea.
Or explain yourself better. How will you calculate the bid knowing the difference between sales and bid, but won't calculate knowing the ration between sales and bid? We aren't arguing apples and oranges. We are arguing math and numbers right now.
I'm not trying to say that your experiences are wrong. What you're saying could be happening. I don't know if it is. It could also be happening on PC. The only thing I know is that I'm not doing this. All I want is to have a good guild with a good trader and if it loses a trader - I know why. Like they say - if you want something done, do it yourself. But of course I still want to play the game, and I don't have to be spending all my time raising gold or begging people for gold. That's why dues. If you are in my team and want to help - do it, if not - I'll replace you with whoever wants to support the cause, no hurt feelings or anything personal. Yeah my guild does have auctions and such thanks to awesome members and officers who volunteer, but even then - they are just an excuse to let you contribute. They shouldn't have to do those things. And if some gold stays - good for everyone. Maybe I can bid on a better trader in the future. You definitely shouldn't know what gold balance is - this information could lead to death of the guild.Don't get me wrong, I'm all in favor of any decent GM that wants to make the burden more bearable, and I understand where you are coming from. But are you aware of the situation on PS4 at least? Believe me, there are many players here that have no need for easier market manipulation and whatever schemes. Same with things like global search, however much I'd like that feature, I fear it will completely destroy our market. At least now it requires some work.
I'm more than anyone would love not to put any time into managing the guild and not to have to count who paid and who didn't. But the system is what it is.
@Artis, it was @Whiphid who said something about MM, sir, not me. I don't even know what MM is. I presume it's a PC ADD-ON.Edited by Galenus_of_Pergamon on September 29, 2017 8:04PM14 AD Characters all 730CP+ (more info coming soon)
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