Idea re: racials

Phatmattfu · September 2017

Hi all, I'm sure alot of you like me have a favourite race in ESO. Sometimes these races don't work out so well when choosing stamina or magjicka.

What i'm suggesting is adding one time quest chains for each race. Long and possibly expensive ones that would have the character be an understudy, apprentice, swear loyalty etc. to a certain race.

In return the characters racials would be swapped with the new race. Maybe at very minor reduced amounts?

I realize they do not affect gameplay too drastically, but I know there are people like me that enjoy a small amount of RP and min / max

Just a random thought I had, apologies in advance if has been suggested already.

Cheers,
wtb Orc mage.

starkerealm · September 2017

Then make a magicka build orc. Follow your dreams. Join the Mages Guild. Give a big middle finger to all those who say you can't make it because you're not smart enough, or too green to use the blue stuff.

Honestly, outside of trial leaderboards, your race doesn't lock you in to a single role. And, if you are obsessed with leaderboards, you're not going to care about your race being the one you wanted it to be.

So, yeah, roll whatever. Just like my Breton Stamsorc, and Imperial Magicka DK. Also, my Imperial Magicka Sorc, my Breton StamKnight, my Khajiit Majplar, my BretonStamblade (though, she's Magicka now, so maybe bad example?)... and on and on.

You don't need to follow what you're told your class should be based on your race, follow your dreams, and set fire to all who oppose you.

Gan Xing · September 2017

It's called downloading PTS, and testing template characters of races you might be interested in. Also, races are very important in terms of gameplay. Some races will do significantly better according to your playstyle then others.

Krayzie · September 2017

Great idea, I'm sure ZoS will read this and implement in the next patch

Phatmattfu · September 2017

haha, I feel if they did implement it for the first few months people would be running around with double sets of racial bonuses.

starkerealm · September 2017

Gan Xing wrote: »

It's called downloading PTS, and testing template characters of races you might be interested in. Also, races are very important in terms of gameplay. Some races will do significantly better according to your playstyle then others.

I think you meant, "...races are incredibly unimportant in terms of gameplay."

Either that, or you've been suckered by the guys who are so shaky at the game, they think they need to minmax for all content.

To be fair, your racial pick is non-trivial. But, there are entirely valid reasons to pick a race that shores up your weaknesses, instead of trying to find one that compliments your strengths the most.

Artis · September 2017

starkerealm wrote: »

Then make a magicka build orc. Follow your dreams. Join the Mages Guild. Give a big middle finger to all those who say you can't make it because you're not smart enough, or too green to use the blue stuff.

Honestly, outside of trial leaderboards, your race doesn't lock you in to a single role. And, if you are obsessed with leaderboards, you're not going to care about your race being the one you wanted it to be.

So, yeah, roll whatever. Just like my Breton Stamsorc, and Imperial Magicka DK. Also, my Imperial Magicka Sorc, my Breton StamKnight, my Khajiit Majplar, my BretonStamblade (though, she's Magicka now, so maybe bad example?)... and on and on.

You don't need to follow what you're told your class should be based on your race, follow your dreams, and set fire to all who oppose you.

Ehh yeah but some of us DO want to play trials and all, too.

And we shouldn't we punished for preferring certain looks and certain play styles that developers think shouldn't work well together for some reason. Races shouldn't affect end-game like they never did in TES games.

It's gonna make the game look much more fun and diverse too. Who's not sick and tired of only having dark elf DKs and stamina khajits. Heck, I only ever saw one magicka khajit sorc...

Phatmattfu · September 2017

starkerealm wrote: »

Gan Xing wrote: »

It's called downloading PTS, and testing template characters of races you might be interested in. Also, races are very important in terms of gameplay. Some races will do significantly better according to your playstyle then others.

I think you meant, "...races are incredibly unimportant in terms of gameplay."

Either that, or you've been suckered by the guys who are so shaky at the game, they think they need to minmax for all content.

To be fair, your racial pick is non-trivial. But, there are entirely valid reasons to pick a race that shores up your weaknesses, instead of trying to find one that compliments your strengths the most.

This is fair.

But I just can't ignore those % resource bonuses. When you start throwing those around with passives and gear they just get better and better.

idk · September 2017

Anything would be ok the crown store. However, with how Zos changed their mind about race change I would not hold Ones breath.

Original idea was rave change would only change the passives. Not the appearance but they moved away from that idea.

cmetzger93 · September 2017

I do wish there was some leeway on racials

TheShadowScout · September 2017

I really dislike suggestions to let people cherry-pick their racial passives for min/maxxing purposes...
(And I say that as someone playing characters like a dunmer stamblade, khajiit sorceress, orc "paladin" mixed-build templar, argionian "kapak wannabe" dragonknight, bosmer magica warden, dunmer sorceror refusing to use fire staves, etc. - all for the roleplaying fun...)

I mean, really... how would that even work, can an argonian just trade in their gills and webbed toes for elven magica-affinity-laden blood or what???

And for 90% of the game, you don't really need it. Yes, some things will be harder then if you min/maxxed your character, and you won't make the leaderboards (and may need to be a bit more selective who you run dungeons with - PUGs are full fo min-maxxer jerks, just go with friends instead!), but... its way more fun to manage the tougher stuff with a non-super-effective build!

...

Better suggestions in that direction would be redoing the racial passives to fixed amounts that are not that much of an difference in the end... that way a altmer mage would still have a advantage over an orc mage, but it would not be that much of an advantage...

Or instead of switching passives, -adding- a second set of passives, "cultural passives" that reflect not the characters race, but their upbringing - did they grow up in a manor, with their nose in a well stocked magic library (noble background), or did they grow up on the city streets, surviving by stealth and running faster then the worn watch (citizen background), or did they grow up out in the country, helping their parents till the fields in rough weather (rustic background)... thus giving each chareacter a split of options in an "magica/stamina/toughness" flavor, best with a mix of combat and non-combat boni...

(or both, my favorite)

Phatmattfu · September 2017

idk wrote: »

Anything would be ok the crown store. However, with how Zos changed their mind about race change I would not hold Ones breath.

Original idea was rave change would only change the passives. Not the appearance but they moved away from that idea.

Thanks for the insight.

I'd be for crown store implementation, but an in game avenue as I had suggested could work if not a little convoluted.

Phatmattfu · September 2017

TheShadowScout wrote: »

I really dislike suggestions to let people cherry-pick their racial passives for min/maxxing purposes...
(And I say that as someone playing characters like a dunmer stamblade, khajiit sorceress, orc "paladin" mixed-build templar, argionian "kapak wannabe" dragonknight, bosmer magica warden, dunmer sorceror refusing to use fire staves, etc. - all for the roleplaying fun...)

I mean, really... how would that even work, can an argonian just trade in their gills and webbed toes for elven magica-affinity-laden blood or what???

And for 90% of the game, you don't really need it. Yes, some things will be harder then if you min/maxxed your character, and you won't make the leaderboards (and may need to be a bit more selective who you run dungeons with - PUGs are full fo min-maxxer jerks, just go with friends instead!), but... its way more fun to manage the tougher stuff with a non-super-effective build!

...

Better suggestions in that direction would be redoing the racial passives to fixed amounts that are not that much of an difference in the end... that way a altmer mage would still have a advantage over an orc mage, but it would not be that much of an advantage...

Or instead of switching passives, -adding- a second set of passives, "cultural passives" that reflect not the characters race, but their upbringing - did they grow up in a manor, with their nose in a well stocked magic library (noble background), or did they grow up on the city streets, surviving by stealth and running faster then the worn watch (citizen background), or did they grow up out in the country, helping their parents till the fields in rough weather (rustic background)... thus giving each chareacter a split of options in an "magica/stamina/toughness" flavor, best with a mix of combat and non-combat boni...

(or both, my favorite)

I get where you are coming from, and like your ideas at the end as well. But I don't think any of the current racials are nothing that would be rp breaking if they were switched around. You could learn how to swim faster, and metabolise potion ingredients more efficiently with enough practice.

Ok that last one might be a stretch.

starkerealm · September 2017

Artis wrote: »

Ehh yeah but some of us DO want to play trials and all, too.

You can do that. I take that aforementioned Breton StamSorc into trials on a semi-regular basis. (To be fair, not in the last couple weeks, but, I've barely been on this month.) You can complete any content with any race/class combo. The only time you might look at your race pick and say, "yeah, no, I actually need to synergize these," would be if you're trying to place on leaderboards. (You might also consider it if you're heavy into PvP, but, again, that's a different consideration entirely.)

A lot of people conflate "mismatched" race / class combos as someone who doesn't understand the game. So far as it goes, that's kinda fair. If you're new to the game, you're likely to pick your race and class irrespective of one another. However, a lot of people look at that and go, "clearly, this doesn't work, because of these examples," which really isn't the case.

As I said, you can use your racial pick to shore up a weakness, or to beef up their primary focus. It can go either way. Understanding what your race does is important, but it's far less restrictive than some quarters of the community would have you believe.

Actually, this is a problem for the community at large. There are a couple personalities who started out making very grandiose statements, like, "always put all your points in health," or, "DKs are the only class worth playing." They developed a following. Their statements were always overblown and absolutist. And, a lot of people joining the community picked up on that message without understanding that the people making these claims were idiots. In some cases, cribbing off of other players' builds, without really understanding them. So, now, we have a lot of players who will pick up random tidbits of information, and then hold them up as holy writ. We've seen this over, and over, and over.

It's the same mindset that insists that 2h is worthless, or the bow is terrible and you should never use it. They're building off of some pieces of rational information, and then running with those tidbits as affirmations of their faith in St. Derp, divorced from rational thought or critical examination.

starkerealm · September 2017

cmetzger93 wrote: »

I do wish there was some leeway on racials

Okay, if you could morph passives when you upgrade them... so instead of a linear upgrade, you might have that and an alternate version, with different bonuses... that would be cool. Not, "pick any bonus, but, hey, here's more options."

TheShadowScout · September 2017

Phatmattfu wrote: »

TheShadowScout wrote: »

I really dislike suggestions to let people cherry-pick their racial passives for min/maxxing purposes...
(And I say that as someone playing characters like a dunmer stamblade, khajiit sorceress, orc "paladin" mixed-build templar, argionian "kapak wannabe" dragonknight, bosmer magica warden, dunmer sorceror refusing to use fire staves, etc. - all for the roleplaying fun...)

I mean, really... how would that even work, can an argonian just trade in their gills and webbed toes for elven magica-affinity-laden blood or what???

And for 90% of the game, you don't really need it. Yes, some things will be harder then if you min/maxxed your character, and you won't make the leaderboards (and may need to be a bit more selective who you run dungeons with - PUGs are full fo min-maxxer jerks, just go with friends instead!), but... its way more fun to manage the tougher stuff with a non-super-effective build!

...

Better suggestions in that direction would be redoing the racial passives to fixed amounts that are not that much of an difference in the end... that way a altmer mage would still have a advantage over an orc mage, but it would not be that much of an advantage...

Or instead of switching passives, -adding- a second set of passives, "cultural passives" that reflect not the characters race, but their upbringing - did they grow up in a manor, with their nose in a well stocked magic library (noble background), or did they grow up on the city streets, surviving by stealth and running faster then the worn watch (citizen background), or did they grow up out in the country, helping their parents till the fields in rough weather (rustic background)... thus giving each chareacter a split of options in an "magica/stamina/toughness" flavor, best with a mix of combat and non-combat boni...

(or both, my favorite)

I get where you are coming from, and like your ideas at the end as well. But I don't think any of the current racials are nothing that would be rp breaking if they were switched around. You could learn how to swim faster, and metabolise potion ingredients more efficiently with enough practice. Ok that last one might be a stretch.

Actually that is rather questionable.
I mean, certainly -learning- is more important then physical aptitude. A guy can be the epitome of generations of breeding for the perfect athlete, but is he never trains but sits on the couch and noms fast food all day he won't win any medals no matter how well his genes scream "stamina build", right?

But that is already covered! By attribute selection, champion points, armor passives... all those represent the "learning".

The racial passives on the other hand represent the racial traits, the genetics if you will. Just like with, say, different dog breeds (just with the mystical magican tamriel rule against mixed breeds since the fluff states that children always have the traits of their mother - likely added by game developers because they did not wish to allow "custom" racial selection in their elder scrolls series). Now, you can probably train a poodle to run pulling a sledge... but i doubt it will ever match an husky, right? That's generations of narutal selection for you.
Same for nords growing up through hundred generations of genetic adaptation to skyrims wintery landscape, or sword-happy redguard culture making sure on average good fighters will have many children and bad fighters will water the sands with their blood indtead...
And with non-human ESO races, it gets worse, when we factor in mystical "magic affinity" elven blood, or structural advantages like argonian gills (yes, they have gills, and can breathe underwater, or could if ESO had underwater stuff like the solo TES games) and webbed digits (which is the secret of their swimming advantage - they have built in find from being semi-amphibeous)
That's why I oppose any "passive switching" - it just makes no sense without switching the whole body (aka, race, which is entirely possible even ICly thanks to alchemy, as we saw in several questings).

Adding new selections opf passives on the other hand... there really is no reason against that except "hasn't been done before". So... culturtal passives? They make sense, someone growing up in a noble household with lots of time to read might have an edge in knowledge-specific stuff, while on the other hand that street rat kid might not be able to read that well, but might have agility and dtamina from all the toils and tribulations growing up a commoner in a medieval city... and someone growing up working outdoors all their childhood might be a bit tougher then the city kid from all that weather and hard work, right?
There also could be more passives as well... like birthplace passives. Sure, nords have cold adaptation through the aforementioned generations of living in skyrim... but if an imperial grew up in skyrim, might hat one maybe not also gain a little bit of familiarity with cold? And so on, there could be one passive for -every- region on the map, and each character could get to pick one of them as his birthplace... wouldn't that be neat for character diversity?

Artis · September 2017

TheShadowScout wrote: »

I really dislike suggestions to let people cherry-pick their racial passives for min/maxxing purposes...
(And I say that as someone playing characters like a dunmer stamblade, khajiit sorceress, orc "paladin" mixed-build templar, argionian "kapak wannabe" dragonknight, bosmer magica warden, dunmer sorceror refusing to use fire staves, etc. - all for the roleplaying fun...)

I mean, really... how would that even work, can an argonian just trade in their gills and webbed toes for elven magica-affinity-laden blood or what???

Easily. They would make a deal with a Prince of bargains. Or Molag Bal experimented in prison or whatever. Doesn't matter.

No one cares. As long as it works the way it should.

Or how did they trade their webbed toes in the future then, since in TES games they don't swim faster and they don't have healing and potion bonuses, but instead have sneaking and thievery passives?

I'll tell you how. Let's not forget what Lady Nerevar said, whose posts were always blessed by MK himself.

Gameplay Limitations

According to Oblivion, there are about 25 houses in all of Chorrol.

Obviously, this is false.

The Elder Scrolls are a series of games, and all games have limits. It is physically impossible for the in-game Chorrol to contain thousands of buildings and hundreds of thousands of NPCs. This is a game play limitation, and it is important to be able to tell game play apart from lore. Game play is anything and everything that is done for the benefit of making a game. Skills and racial traits are game play for example, as are the specific powers granted by birthsigns or the weight of items. These things have lore components of course, but the game representation of these things should not be taken as lore.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

And for 90% of the game, you don't really need it. Yes, some things will be harder then if you min/maxxed your character, and you won't make the leaderboards (and may need to be a bit more selective who you run dungeons with - PUGs are full fo min-maxxer jerks, just go with friends instead!), but... its way more fun to manage the tougher stuff with a non-super-effective build!

90% is not good enough. 100% or bust. We all pay and there's no good reason to not let us participate everywhere with a character we like. No, it's not way more fun. And no you can't go just with friends anywhere. When it comes to end-game, you go with people that perform so you have a real shot of completing something, you know, in this life.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Better suggestions in that direction would be redoing the racial passives to fixed amounts that are not that much of an difference in the end... that way a altmer mage would still have a advantage over an orc mage, but it would not be that much of an advantage...

Or instead of switching passives, -adding- a second set of passives, "cultural passives" that reflect not the characters race, but their upbringing - did they grow up in a manor, with their nose in a well stocked magic library (noble background), or did they grow up on the city streets, surviving by stealth and running faster then the worn watch (citizen background), or did they grow up out in the country, helping their parents till the fields in rough weather (rustic background)... thus giving each chareacter a split of options in an "magica/stamina/toughness" flavor, best with a mix of combat and non-combat boni...

(or both, my favorite)

It's not better. Especially if someone will still have an advantage in end-game. Otherwise it's the same thing no matter how you call it. If I can change sex, bone structure and height, skin color etc. I surely should be able to change those things to look like another race. Not to mention all other hints such as mixing mother's and father's appearance and traits.

But even that is not needed. Racial skills have very little to do with lore. No need to over complicate stuff.

starkerealm wrote: »

You can do that. I take that aforementioned Breton StamSorc into trials on a semi-regular basis. (To be fair, not in the last couple weeks, but, I've barely been on this month.) You can complete any content with any race/class combo.

I'm sorry, but that will need to be proven. Here is how it goes - based on another thread we can say that race accounts for up to 10% DPS. That's a HUGE number especially in good raids. Missing out on that number can mean not burning vHoF HM in time, not skipping lunar phase in vmol, not skipping many mechanics and making the fight much harder, not to mention having to deal with adds longer. All those things put a strain on other people who have to make up for the lack of his DPS when he could just have a proper race. If they are fine with that good for them. But some people aren't fine. And then you need to meet DPS requirements that sometimes are very hard if possible to meet with bad races. Be real, you need a strong group to complete all content, not just any group.

But as I said - this has to be proven and so far you can't really say that all content was completed by every race/class combo. Only one group completed Tick Tock Tormentor achievement as far as I know, and only a few got a Spotless Triumph. And EVEN IF any race combo is mathematically enough to complete those things (which wasn't proven yet) - there's almost no way it will be enough to join a group that can complete everything. Because when they choose who to go with, you will compete for that spot with others - including those who use optimal races. And that's noticeable. Let's say, 36k and 40k dps on a dummy just because of the race.

starkerealm · September 2017

Artis wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

You can do that. I take that aforementioned Breton StamSorc into trials on a semi-regular basis. (To be fair, not in the last couple weeks, but, I've barely been on this month.) You can complete any content with any race/class combo.

I'm sorry, but that will need to be proven. Here is how it goes - based on another thread we can say that race accounts for up to 10% DPS.

In most rotations it will not be a 10% difference. Closer to two or three percent. There are outliers. A Dunmer DK will pull around 7-8% more, which is very significant. But, that one is a statistical outlier. And, as it stands, there's a pretty decent argument that the Dunmer and Altmer passives are overpowered at present.

Usually what you'll see is a 10% increase to a single stat, which does not translate to a 10% damage bump.

Artis wrote: »

Only one group completed Tick Tock Tormentor achievement as far as I know...

With a Redguard Templar, which kinda undercuts the entire idea that you need a Khajiit for a stamina build, or you're not up to snuff. (I'm not sure on the rest of Hodor's builds, but you can ask them if you're really curious.)

Artis wrote: »

...there's almost no way it will be enough to join a group that can complete everything. Because when they choose who to go with, you will compete for that spot with others...

If you're talking about running serious endgame content, you're not going to be pugging that. Meaning the petty, "no, we won't take anyone except Dunmer DKs" crap, is a pretty decent indicator that they'll never be able to clear that content to begin with.

Again, this, "you must be this high to ride this ride," mentality is something that you really only see in the people aspiring to run that content. Not the players who are actually good enough to do so.

Now, beyond that, race selection is an informed choice. It's not, "I'm going to pick what looks pretty," but it's also not as confining as you seem to think.

zaria · September 2017

idk wrote: »

Anything would be ok the crown store. However, with how Zos changed their mind about race change I would not hold Ones breath.

Original idea was rave change would only change the passives. Not the appearance but they moved away from that idea.

Had been an better idea, far better, you could get the racial passive you wanted with the look you wanted, yes it would cost you $ like lots of cosmetic stuff.

Current system is an trap for anybody not knowing ESO, 1) you come from Skyrim, has played Oblivion and Morrowind, racial is an bonus on low level, not an issue on higher, in fact in Oblivion you can reach higher level with an Orc mage than an Altmer. In ESO the effect increases with level and is most relevant in endgame.
Coming from other MMO like WOW, race tend to limit class selection because of lore, but an tiny goblin or gnome is an just as good tank as a Tauren or Dranei. (hated gnome tanks as they was hard to see in the AoE.)

SFDB · September 2017

Finding a way for them to monetize it is key. Right now ZoS has no reason to reduce the effect racial passives can have because they have a race change token in the crown store. For them, the system is hunky dory.

If you could get them to split racial passives as they are now into Race and Discipline, the Discipline can be the more game influencing sides, while the Race can be for appearance and three minor effects (e.g., Argonian with increased swimming, improved restoration staff xp, and poison resistance; Bretons with increased alliance points, light armor xp, and spell resistance, etc.). Then Discipline could be "Choose three from this list: Gift of Magnus, Stealthy, Conditioning, Brawny, etc." and that would define your Discipline, which could be reset by a token in the crown store (again, monetizing is the only way they'll change this).

So you could say, "My character is a Khajiit, with the Gift of Magnus, Spellcharge, and Stealthy Disciplines; a gifted mage known to be a bit of a rascal." A little flexibility, lore is still intact, ZoS makes money.

Artis · September 2017

starkerealm wrote: »

In most rotations it will not be a 10% difference. Closer to two or three percent. There are outliers. A Dunmer DK will pull around 7-8% more, which is very significant. But, that one is a statistical outlier. And, as it stands, there's a pretty decent argument that the Dunmer and Altmer passives are overpowered at present.

Usually what you'll see is a 10% increase to a single stat, which does not translate to a 10% damage bump.

Well, I said up to 10%, not 10%. What you're saying makes sense, I just got numbers from another discussion where that's what people reported. Both dunmer and altmer have max magicka,too, btw.

Artis wrote: »

Only one group completed Tick Tock Tormentor achievement as far as I know...

starkerealm wrote: »

With a Redguard Templar, which kinda undercuts the entire idea that you need a Khajiit for a stamina build, or you're not up to snuff. (I'm not sure on the rest of Hodor's builds, but you can ask them if you're really curious.)

It doesn't undercut anything for a couple of reasons: 1) My statement is still true: not every race/class combo was used to complete a trial, therefore it can't be said that "you can complete any content with any race/class combo"; 2) Redguard is a perfect race for a stamina build, it has 10% stamina+great sustain vs that crit. It's recommended by many great players and that sustain means you can light-attack weave more before having to heavy attack + max stam is not much weaker than crit. Maybe if it was a breton stamina templar you'd have a point, which still wouldn't change the fact that 1) is true.

starkerealm wrote: »

If you're talking about running serious endgame content, you're not going to be pugging that. Meaning the petty, "no, we won't take anyone except Dunmer DKs" crap, is a pretty decent indicator that they'll never be able to clear that content to begin with.

Again, this, "you must be this high to ride this ride," mentality is something that you really only see in the people aspiring to run that content. Not the players who are actually good enough to do so.

I of course didn't mean that dunmer DK thing, no. Didn't I specifically mention DPS requirements, that are harder to meet on some races. But more importantly than that, when choosing a person for a specific group - performance will be compared, won't it?

starkerealm wrote: »

Now, beyond that, race selection is an informed choice. It's not, "I'm going to pick what looks pretty," but it's also not as confining as you seem to think.

That's patently wrong. I choose my race at pre-release. There was (and still isn't) a list of all passives and an essay about how much they will affect the end-game performance in the character creation screen. There were also soft caps at the time which were announced and talked about in videos. And yes, many players pick what looks pretty and why shouldn't they?

My choice was informed by official video they were posting pre-release where they were talking about the game. And I guess cinematic trailers? I wanted a character like that breton who was agile and all. And I knew there were caps. It's not until endgame I realize that I can't do that and well found myself stuck on a character with achievements and all whom I had to respec - and hes' still not optimal and not cool. Like, I can repeat someone's rotation video and my numbers will be consistently less than theirs.

The two people above me both nailed it. Agree with both.

Race balance is kinda like class balance - why would you argue that all classes should perform all roles good - with different rotations and whatnot but they should be balanced in terms of final numbers. Same goes for races.

Most importantly - no one should feel bad about their choice and their character. There is no good reason for that. One person can pick what looks pretty to him, but then suffer that his performance is worse than it could be and not enjoy the game as much, another one could pick a race based on performance but be disgusted by how it looks and again have less fun as a result. In the end, both will be more likely to put less time/effort/money into the game or even quit.

Why would we want that? See, that was the beauty of TES - you could play anything you want and not feel like you're missing out and just be fully happy with your character. Why wouldn't we want that?

Avidspark · September 2017

starkerealm wrote: »

Imperial Magicka DK

And here I thought I was the only one!

Is yours a WW too, because, why not?

zaria · September 2017

SFDB wrote: »

Finding a way for them to monetize it is key. Right now ZoS has no reason to reduce the effect racial passives can have because they have a race change token in the crown store. For them, the system is hunky dory.

If you could get them to split racial passives as they are now into Race and Discipline, the Discipline can be the more game influencing sides, while the Race can be for appearance and three minor effects (e.g., Argonian with increased swimming, improved restoration staff xp, and poison resistance; Bretons with increased alliance points, light armor xp, and spell resistance, etc.). Then Discipline could be "Choose three from this list: Gift of Magnus, Stealthy, Conditioning, Brawny, etc." and that would define your Discipline, which could be reset by a token in the crown store (again, monetizing is the only way they'll change this).

So you could say, "My character is a Khajiit, with the Gift of Magnus, Spellcharge, and Stealthy Disciplines; a gifted mage known to be a bit of a rascal." A little flexibility, lore is still intact, ZoS makes money.

Having appearance race change under appearance change and racial passives under the more expensive racial change should work.
On the other hand you have the meta-heads, new word for players who kick cp250 from normal dungeons,
Next up is kicking an cp 660 Altmer stamina DK in ebon with dro-m’Athra skin from an normal dungeon

And yes I like the attitude as it force an change
An ZoS style change

starkerealm · September 2017

Avidspark wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Imperial Magicka DK

And here I thought I was the only one!

Is yours a WW too, because, why not?

Ironically, no. He's my only DK who isn't a werewolf, though.

Chronicburn · September 2017

I like the skills of the kahjit but I hate cats ... if I could have those same skills on a cute little wood elf or tall sexy Breton woman I ld do it in a heartbeat

starkerealm · September 2017

Artis wrote: »

My statement is still true: not every race/class combo was used to complete a trial, therefore it can't be said that "you can complete any content with any race/class combo"...

I'd actually point back to that and remind you that this is, in fact, still true, when we're talking about Vet Trials themselves. You're going to see less variety on vMoL and vHoF, simply they are more recent, but unless you want to point to achievements and say, "no, that's wholly content on its own merits, independent of the trial it's attached to.

Now, if you're saying that in order to complete vHoF, you need to also complete, Like Clockwork, that's patently false. You need a coordinated group, who fully understand the game, and are all on the ball. For that achievement (and a few others) you've actually entered into a point with the game where the requisite skill level is high enough that your race can be a relevant factor.

Worth remembering that the difference between vet dungeons and trials and the non-vet versions is basically stat inflation.

Back when ESO released, vet dungeons were entirely different experiences from the non-vet versions. You could run Banished Cells at level 15, then come back as a vet character, and it was a different dungeon. Same map, but different enemy placement.

Now, that's not true. The old vet dungeons have been rebranded as Pt 2 of the story, (which is accurate) and are available to everyone, with vet and normal content being functionally the same, with the option to switch between them being about difficulty.

So, that brings us back to trials. You can complete vet trials on mismatched builds. You can complete normal ones half asleep, occasionally spamming your number keys. "You've completed the content, here have a cookie," and the game shoves you out the door.

So, if you've played through HoF on vet or normal, you've still completed that content. Achievements such as Like Clockwork are there to seriously test experienced players. And, yeah, when you're talking about some achievement runs, you're going to need to very finely tune your build for every last point of power.

Artis wrote: »

2) Redguard is a perfect race for a stamina build, it has 10% stamina+great sustain vs that crit.

In part, I'd agree, but we're also talking about the game right after Morrowind dropped, when the "consensus," among the, "this tall to ride this ride," crowd was that Redguards were no longer worth using. Which was stupid, but that perception still infests some parts of this board.

Artis wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

If you're talking about running serious endgame content, you're not going to be pugging that. Meaning the petty, "no, we won't take anyone except Dunmer DKs" crap, is a pretty decent indicator that they'll never be able to clear that content to begin with.

Again, this, "you must be this high to ride this ride," mentality is something that you really only see in the people aspiring to run that content. Not the players who are actually good enough to do so.

I of course didn't mean that dunmer DK thing, no. Didn't I specifically mention DPS requirements, that are harder to meet on some races. But more importantly than that, when choosing a person for a specific group - performance will be compared, won't it?

Not exactly.

The thing about this is, if you're at the level where you're running this kind of content, in a guild, you have (or should have) the systems knowledge to make a decision about what race you'll be playing intelligently. Which is what I meant when I said you wouldn't be pugging vet trials. Also what I meant when I said that, "race selection is an informed choice," though, it probably would have been clearer if I'd said, "should be an informed choice."

Your race is relevant for your character build. It is not merely cosmetic, it does affect gameplay. However, it is not an insurmountable barrier to content completion.

That said, there is a substantial chunk of the community who got their 660s in Skyreach, have never learned how to play, and follow walk-through guides like holy writ. That's also the segment who will, most vocally tell you that in order to clear content, you need to match a specific race and class combo.

This isn't to say those guides are wrong, there's often a lot of good advice (depending on who you're looking at), but it's just that, "advice." Things that can help you if you're struggling, not concrete rules that must be followed at all times.

For the segment of the community who look at this stuff as necessary prereqs, bluntly, they don't have the system knowledge to clear the content to begin with. They can run from a script, but they really don't know what they're doing.

Going back to where I started, if you're in a progression guild good enough to clear Like Clockwork, you're not going to need to come on here and get advice for what race you need in your build. You're going to pick based on what you're trying to do with your build. However, if you're talking about people who want to be that good, they often look at things like pre-baked builds online, and belt out, "as it was, so it shall be!" You really don't want to run vet trials with that crowd, because they'll do incredibly stupid things at every turn. They won't fail to clear vHoF because their racial pick was sub-par. It'll be due to them scattering and fleeing from the healer (and other equally catastrophic mistakes).

Artis wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Now, beyond that, race selection is an informed choice. It's not, "I'm going to pick what looks pretty," but it's also not as confining as you seem to think.

That's patently wrong. I choose my race at pre-release. There was (and still isn't) a list of all passives and an essay about how much they will affect the end-game performance in the character creation screen. There were also soft caps at the time which were announced and talked about in videos. And yes, many players pick what looks pretty and why shouldn't they?

As I said a minute ago, there were probably clearer ways to phrase that. Racial selection does have an effect on gameplay, but it does not gate you off from completing content.

Again, the exception would be if you're aiming for the leaderboards, or trying for some of the more punishing challenge achievements. But, that's not clearing content. That's score attack, or deliberately trying to ratchet up the difficulty for yourself.

Artis · September 2017

starkerealm wrote: »

So, if you've played through HoF on vet or normal, you've still completed that content. Achievements such as Like Clockwork are there to seriously test experienced players. And, yeah, when you're talking about some achievement runs, you're going to need to very finely tune your build for every last point of power.

Upper limit is the only thing that counts. Until you completed all achievements, you haven't completed all content. You don't have all titles or dyes or whatever. If you completed all content that means no one has anything you don't have (excluding gear and rng. So anything that is not based on rng). Experienced players want to play pretty characters, too. I want to complete everything with my character and not feel like I'm being carried.

Are you saying I shouldn't have such right?

starkerealm wrote: »

In part, I'd agree, but we're also talking about the game right after Morrowind dropped, when the "consensus," among the, "this tall to ride this ride," crowd was that Redguards were no longer worth using. Which was stupid, but that perception still infests some parts of this board.

You like using patently false, I saw. Well, this is patently false. After morrowind redguard are much more popular because of the sustain. As can be seen in many guildes, for example, by alcast or nos. And again, khajit vs regard is irrelevant now. Talk about khajit or redguard vs breton or altmer for a stamina build.

starkerealm wrote: »

Not exactly.

The thing about this is, if you're at the level where you're running this kind of content, in a guild, you have (or should have) the systems knowledge to make a decision about what race you'll be playing intelligently. Which is what I meant when I said you wouldn't be pugging vet trials. Also what I meant when I said that, "race selection is an informed choice," though, it probably would have been clearer if I'd said, "should be an informed choice."

Your race is relevant for your character build. It is not merely cosmetic, it does affect gameplay. However, it is not an insurmountable barrier to content completion.

That said, there is a substantial chunk of the community who got their 660s in Skyreach, have never learned how to play, and follow walk-through guides like holy writ. That's also the segment who will, most vocally tell you that in order to clear content, you need to match a specific race and class combo.

This isn't to say those guides are wrong, there's often a lot of good advice (depending on who you're looking at), but it's just that, "advice." Things that can help you if you're struggling, not concrete rules that must be followed at all times.

For the segment of the community who look at this stuff as necessary prereqs, bluntly, they don't have the system knowledge to clear the content to begin with. They can run from a script, but they really don't know what they're doing.

Stop telling me how guilds should be, pls. I know how they are, haven't started yesterday. Yes, they won't check your race, but they will have a DPS requirement you need to meet.

Oh it should be an informed choice? Too late for that. As I said, not only racials were different in 2014, but also their impact was different, and of course there was no information in game how it will all play out not even then, but also 3 years later.

And again, pls stop saying things you only assume. Yeah, theoretically they should work like that. In practice only a couple of guilds completed that to begin with - let alone all races/classes pfft. In practice, I'm in one of the good raiding guilds that have multiple groups who all cleared all trials and hms. And yes, to stay there I needed to complete a DPS test. And no, they definitely know what they are doing. You can't be saying the opposite. Unless you're a GM of one of the better guilds. So which guild are you a GM of? Did your group complete those achievements?

starkerealm wrote: »

Going back to where I started, if you're in a progression guild good enough to clear Like Clockwork, you're not going to need to come on here and get advice for what race you need in your build. You're going to pick based on what you're trying to do with your build. However, if you're talking about people who want to be that good, they often look at things like pre-baked builds online, and belt out, "as it was, so it shall be!" You really don't want to run vet trials with that crowd, because they'll do incredibly stupid things at every turn. They won't fail to clear vHoF because their racial pick was sub-par. It'll be due to them scattering and fleeing from the healer (and other equally catastrophic mistakes).

bs. There's only one guild who is in fact good enough to clear that, no one else did. Furthermore, I don't come here to get advice for the race. I know exactly what race I need. But it's not the one I have. And the main point - I shouldn't care about the race difference so much at all. And again - I'm not sure why you keep bringing up all those skyreach children here. I don't fail to clear vhof because of the racial pick. In fact, odds are that my score is higher than yours. I'm not top by any means, but there are only 10 scores better than my current score right now. Not that I care about my score that much, but yes I completed all fights.

It's not about that. I shouldn't feel bad about my character at all. I shouldn't choose between the looks and efficiency. I should be able to create a character I fully enjoy and be able to deal with any racial rebalancing too.

Artis wrote: »

As I said a minute ago, there were probably clearer ways to phrase that. Racial selection does have an effect on gameplay, but it does not gate you off from completing content.

Again, the exception would be if you're aiming for the leaderboards, or trying for some of the more punishing challenge achievements. But, that's not clearing content. That's score attack, or deliberately trying to ratchet up the difficulty for yourself.

Yeah no. That IS clearing content. If you don't have all titles, you didn't do everything the devs challenged you to do.

And why shouldn't I be able to aim for the leaderboards with any race/class combo? I don't see any good reason for that and obviously want it fixed. Are you saying it shouldn't be fixed and we should be punished for our racial choices?

MLGProPlayer · September 2017

starkerealm wrote: »

Then make a magicka build orc. Follow your dreams. Join the Mages Guild. Give a big middle finger to all those who say you can't make it because you're not smart enough, or too green to use the blue stuff.

Honestly, outside of trial leaderboards, your race doesn't lock you in to a single role. And, if you are obsessed with leaderboards, you're not going to care about your race being the one you wanted it to be.

So, yeah, roll whatever. Just like my Breton Stamsorc, and Imperial Magicka DK. Also, my Imperial Magicka Sorc, my Breton StamKnight, my Khajiit Majplar, my BretonStamblade (though, she's Magicka now, so maybe bad example?)... and on and on.

You don't need to follow what you're told your class should be based on your race, follow your dreams, and set fire to all who oppose you.

It's not just about leader boards. A favourable race will help you with just completing content more efficiently,. even if leader boards aren't your goal.

Phatmattfu · September 2017

It's obvious racial skills is a touchy subject. Zos kind of painted themselves into the corner from the start with the resources and attributes etc but that is another thread.

Fine line between maintaining race as an important decision and homogenizing them.

I feel my original idea would feel a little more organic than a crown store option. Would add content as well as item sink. With some creativity you could appease the hard line RPers with interesting quests as your character works through the trials and tribulations of what is to be like one of their chosen mentors.

I know its a lot to do about nothing for most ESO players, but they should explore options to at least to branch out more. Maybe background options etc. which was suggested above.