Vet Dungeons - Ignoring Mechanics

Kode · September 2017

I normally don't use group finder, but I have been playing a new toon and decided to join some groups. Namely White Gold Tower and Cradle of Shadows...
I am trying to understand if people are ignoring the mechanics or just don't care to move. The DPS was a vampire with 14K health and stood in fire damage without even thinking about moving, it was everything I could do to keep her alive.
In Cradle of Shadows the 40K tank literally face tanked everything, barely moving from anything including some instant kill shots. He died a few times and required lots of healing to keep alive.

Is this the norm for groups? Are people ignoring mechanics and just accepting deaths and healing through where possible, or is this just bad players that don't move?

Kanar · September 2017

No it's not the norm.

Giraffon · September 2017

As long as they aren't complaining about your healing I'd just do the best you can to help them through it. It sounds like they were just inexperienced. I remember when I first started playing it never occurred to me to blame the healer if I died. I knew where the problem was.

kylewwefan · September 2017

Yes. Fun isn't it! Wait til you get the knuckle heads popping siege shield. Or the caltrops light attack spammer. The tank with bow/ 2H. DPS with 30K+ health.

I find many interesting builds and people with group finder. Totally normal. Never expect to beat any vet DLC dungeon....any vet content is a complete crapshoot with groupfinder actually.

FoolishHuman · September 2017

That's why I rarely heal for randoms anymore. Queue times be damned, it's not worth it.

Nestor · September 2017

I don't know if it is because I have 880+ CPs or some other reason, but the only Vet Dungeons I ever get for Randoms are DLCs or vCoAII or one of the other insane Vet II dungeons. Fine with a good tight group but not pugs.

Anyway, if these folks are getting the same dungeons presented to them and not having time to hone their skills in the Vet I dungeons, it could explain the lack of mechanics. Normal Dungeons do not encourage learning mechanics, Vet 1 dungeons do benefit from mechanics, but can be burned down in some cases. Vet II and Vet DLC? You better know those dungeons, know mechanics, and most importantly, know your role.

This is why I think we need to have 3 Tiers of Random Dungeons, Normal, Vet, and Vet II/DLC.

Because, you just know with Trans Crystals dropping on Vet Randoms, it is only going to get worse, much worse.

idk · September 2017

Sounds like inexperienced players. My guess is their dps was low as well.

I would have let that vampire die and explained afterwards it helps to avoid damage, especially when you choose to take more or that type of damage. But politely. The tank may not know the mechanics of that simple standing there and taunting is just part of the role.

Zagnut123Zagnut123 · September 2017

Kanar wrote: »

No it's not the norm.

It's definitely the norm.

xRIVALENx · September 2017

christopher.duvalub17_ESO wrote: »

I normally don't use group finder, but I have been playing a new toon and decided to join some groups. Namely White Gold Tower and Cradle of Shadows...
I am trying to understand if people are ignoring the mechanics or just don't care to move. The DPS was a vampire with 14K health and stood in fire damage without even thinking about moving, it was everything I could do to keep her alive.
In Cradle of Shadows the 40K tank literally face tanked everything, barely moving from anything including some instant kill shots. He died a few times and required lots of healing to keep alive.

Is this the norm for groups? Are people ignoring mechanics and just accepting deaths and healing through where possible, or is this just bad players that don't move?

Those individuals may just have been inexperienced in those dungeons. Once a tank is familiar with Cradle of Shadows they know which attacks are safe to face tank and which attacks are best mitigated by dodge rolling or another form of mitigation as to alleviate pressure off the healer. It all comes with time right. If you happen to be on PC NA you would be more than welcome to give me a shout, always enjoy running CoS and WGT.

Magdalina · September 2017

christopher.duvalub17_ESO wrote: »

I normally don't use group finder, but I have been playing a new toon and decided to join some groups. Namely White Gold Tower and Cradle of Shadows...
I am trying to understand if people are ignoring the mechanics or just don't care to move. The DPS was a vampire with 14K health and stood in fire damage without even thinking about moving, it was everything I could do to keep her alive.
In Cradle of Shadows the 40K tank literally face tanked everything, barely moving from anything including some instant kill shots. He died a few times and required lots of healing to keep alive.

Is this the norm for groups? Are people ignoring mechanics and just accepting deaths and healing through where possible, or is this just bad players that don't move?

This is the norm. It shouldn't be but it is - that's what you get when having 0 learning curve whatsoever and open world+most normal dungeons you can literally facekeyboard and still complete. They don't know they're actually supposed to move, block, dodge, shield, bash etc because during their whole ESO experience so far they have never needed to do that(therefore they frequently gain the "it's not me, it's the other people's fault because my build and playstyle work 100% for openworld" attitude too).

At this point I say let them die. After a few dozen deaths they might begin to see something. Or maybe not, depends on the person :P

Brrrofski · September 2017

It is 100% the norm for group finder. I never do vet with group finder for this reason.

Even if you think "maybe they don't know, I'll explain" you either get silence or they tell you to shut up, they're playing how they want.

Giraffon · September 2017

Brrrofski wrote: »

It is 100% the norm for group finder. I never do vet with group finder for this reason.

Even if you think "maybe they don't know, I'll explain" you either get silence or they tell you to shut up, they're playing how they want.

I agree. I still try though. For some reason I feel obligated to try. /facepalm

anitajoneb17_ESO · September 2017

Oh ! Yet another PUG-bashing thread.

How long ago was the last one ? Like, two days ?

Is it the norm ? Is it not the norm ?
Remember there is NO norm with PUGs. People are chosen randomly with the only criteria being availability.
You can get a good group, an excellent group, a bad group, a middle group, a newbie group, a friendly group, a toxic group, a crazy group, a funny group, a chatty group, a silent group, an elitist group, even a group of reborn oberyn martells.
You can get ANYTHING.

If you're not ready for ANYTHING, DO NOT PUG.

In my experience, most groups just adjust and people try to do their best to beat the content. Most times we complete the dungeon, sometimes we don't.

If people are not doing the mechanics, it's either because they don't know them, or because they're expecting the DPS to burn everything so quick that mechanics can be bypassed. And sometimes it's both.

Magdalina · September 2017

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

If people are not doing the mechanics, it's either because they don't know them, or because they're expecting the DPS to burn everything so quick that mechanics can be bypassed. And sometimes it's both.

Nah. Tbh at this point I'm inclined to believe that most...okay, a lot of the people don't do mechanics simply because they don't wanna do mechanics. They'd rather wipe the group 27 times in a row than bother to adjust their playstyle.

It's baffling to me, but it is what it is. Also there's nothing weird or wrong with threads expressing one's confusion and frustration on an ingame matter. There will be more threads like this. And more and more. Until either everyone interested in group content leaves the game or ZOS does something to reduce the gap between players.

zaria · September 2017

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Oh ! Yet another PUG-bashing thread.

How long ago was the last one ? Like, two days ?

Is it the norm ? Is it not the norm ?
Remember there is NO norm with PUGs. People are chosen randomly with the only criteria being availability.
You can get a good group, an excellent group, a bad group, a middle group, a newbie group, a friendly group, a toxic group, a crazy group, a funny group, a chatty group, a silent group, an elitist group, even a group of reborn oberyn martells.
You can get ANYTHING.

If you're not ready for ANYTHING, DO NOT PUG.

In my experience, most groups just adjust and people try to do their best to beat the content. Most times we complete the dungeon, sometimes we don't.

If people are not doing the mechanics, it's either because they don't know them, or because they're expecting the DPS to burn everything so quick that mechanics can be bypassed. And sometimes it's both.

This, you get all sort of players.
And yes expect that you die multiple times to get the mechanics even if you know them on harder dungeons.

Kanar · September 2017

Maybe healers/tanks have a different experience than damage role. I always queue as damage and usually have a good experience. My position is that trial-spec "all or nothing" builds aren't the best idea for vet pugs.

People seem to copy the latest trial builds (min/maxed DPS builds, or support oriented tank/healers) and then expect the build to do well with pugs. Problem is most of those builds assume team support to fill in gaps. Tank/healer running warhorn & etc isn't very effective when group DPS is low, you would be better off adding directly to DPS. If you're damage at least slot a survival skill or two, or bump your health up a bit. If you approach the dungeon like you're going to solo/duo it, then you won't be let down when half your group dies.

Brrrofski · September 2017

Kanar wrote: »

Maybe healers/tanks have a different experience than damage role. I always queue as damage and usually have a good experience. My position is that trial-spec "all or nothing" builds aren't the best idea for vet pugs.

People seem to copy the latest trial builds (min/maxed DPS builds, or support oriented tank/healers) and then expect the build to do well with pugs. Problem is most of those builds assume team support to fill in gaps. Tank/healer running warhorn & etc isn't very effective when group DPS is low, you would be better off adding directly to DPS. If you're damage at least slot a survival skill or two, or bump your health up a bit. If you approach the dungeon like you're going to solo/duo it, then you won't be let down when half your group dies.

As a tank, it's infuriating. As a dps I can at least help do what's needed to be done.

I agree with things like warhorn. I tank on my warden and just spam trees so at least people won't people die less when i have it up.

Kanar · September 2017

Brrrofski wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

Maybe healers/tanks have a different experience than damage role. I always queue as damage and usually have a good experience. My position is that trial-spec "all or nothing" builds aren't the best idea for vet pugs.

People seem to copy the latest trial builds (min/maxed DPS builds, or support oriented tank/healers) and then expect the build to do well with pugs. Problem is most of those builds assume team support to fill in gaps. Tank/healer running warhorn & etc isn't very effective when group DPS is low, you would be better off adding directly to DPS. If you're damage at least slot a survival skill or two, or bump your health up a bit. If you approach the dungeon like you're going to solo/duo it, then you won't be let down when half your group dies.

As a tank, it's infuriating. As a dps I can at least help do what's needed to be done.

I agree with things like warhorn. I tank on my warden and just spam trees so at least people won't people die less when i have it up.

It could be one of the tortures in coldharbor, where you know what needs to be done but have to rely on an incompetent, bumbling stranger to do it for you.

Magdalina · September 2017

Kanar wrote: »

Maybe healers/tanks have a different experience than damage role. I always queue as damage and usually have a good experience. My position is that trial-spec "all or nothing" builds aren't the best idea for vet pugs.

People seem to copy the latest trial builds (min/maxed DPS builds, or support oriented tank/healers) and then expect the build to do well with pugs. Problem is most of those builds assume team support to fill in gaps. Tank/healer running warhorn & etc isn't very effective when group DPS is low, you would be better off adding directly to DPS. If you're damage at least slot a survival skill or two, or bump your health up a bit. If you approach the dungeon like you're going to solo/duo it, then you won't be let down when half your group dies.

It's a lot easier to carry as a dps. That's also the reason why there're so few tanks and healers in the groupfinder, because you only need 1-2 4 hour long runs in a team with 6k group dps to realize you'd rather pug as a dd, if at all.

Healers actually have a tad bit more leeway because they can pull some dps at least but a tank? Yeah you're screwed.

Casul · September 2017

I'm a CP 600 tank, and I would say I'm pretty good at what I do. Beaten all the normal dungeons (easy) and starting into some of the tougher vet stuff (CoA 2 and CoS for example).

All I can say is even at my CP I'm still learning stuff because up till this point I've never tried the harder content (like going hard mode on CoA 2). So just have patience. Do your best to enlighten people. I mean heck I didn't even know until yesterday that the darkness in CoS gave enemies a massive defensive buff!

WuffyCerulei · September 2017

This isn't normal at all. The dps can't really be excused with that low health and disregard to stay alive in the least possible way. The tank tho, I say they're just learning on what not to do as a tank. They have a lot to do and experience is key. Also them face-tanking isn't a bad thing. One of the tank's jobs is not kite the boss around like a caffinated chicken if they don't need to.

bebynnag · September 2017

christopher.duvalub17_ESO wrote: »

Is this the norm for groups? Are people ignoring mechanics and just accepting deaths and healing through where possible, or is this just bad players that don't move?

YES

what is also normal is DDs just light attacking
nightblades activating cloak and hiding in the corner (close enough to receive XP)
dds who single target groups of ads
templars using radient on bosses at full health
dds using fully charge heavy attacks on ice staves & then shouting at the tank (me) for loosing agro
sorcs running <10k health using all their resources shield stacking then shouting at other team mates for stealing their healing ward (as if we did it on purpose)
dds using sword & shield pierced armour & then shouting at the tank (me) for loosing agro
dk dds trying to face tank everything while wearing 7 light or 7 medium because dks are 'all tanks' ????
dds using snipe at close range (not bis for a dungeon ever but if your gonna do it at least take advantage of the deal extra damage from a distance passive)
wardens running away from the group to activate group buffs for RP reasons!

bebynnag · September 2017

btw im currently pugging as a warden tank ultimate generating build, who uses the 'tree' ultimate so i can keep the team healed... if only they stopped running away from them!

Destruent · September 2017

Magdalina wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

If people are not doing the mechanics, it's either because they don't know them, or because they're expecting the DPS to burn everything so quick that mechanics can be bypassed. And sometimes it's both.

Nah. Tbh at this point I'm inclined to believe that most...okay, a lot of the people don't do mechanics simply because they don't wanna do mechanics. They'd rather wipe the group 27 times in a row than bother to adjust their playstyle.

It's baffling to me, but it is what it is. Also there's nothing weird or wrong with threads expressing one's confusion and frustration on an ingame matter. There will be more threads like this. And more and more. Until either everyone interested in group content leaves the game or ZOS does something to reduce the gap between players.

I'm pretty sure those who invested in group play will leave the game before ZOS even tries to close the gap...when they have left ZOS will call it a day bc the difference between best and worse player is a lot smaller than nowadays

And no....i'm not exaggerating...it gets harder and harder to fill raidgroups with good players and at the same time you hear from other groups disbanding and leaving...