Look OP if it's "everyone" else, it's your build. There are plenty of subpar builds out there, not everyone should be unkillable.

What are you running?

NBs, Dks, Sorcs, Wardens, and even Templars all have amazing builds available to them.

I can think of 15k will NBs
My Wardens
Permablocking Dks with whips
Templars that do things with stuff too

And you are well aware of Sorcs

So, what's up?

On ps4 EU the situation is really sad on cp.
Almost everyone is running a tanky build with high healing and sh*t dmg running in 4+ people group:it's solo player hell.
Survivability needs to be tuned down if you want damage and vice versa. So tired of those groups running 80%templars 20% mag dk crossing cyrodiil holding block.

Waffennacht wrote: »

Ocelot9x wrote: »

On ps4 EU the situation is really sad on cp.
Almost everyone is running a tanky build with high healing and sh*t dmg running in 4+ people group:it's solo player hell.
Survivability needs to be tuned down if you want damage and vice versa. So tired of those groups running 80%templars 20% mag dk crossing cyrodiil holding block.

If you're out numbered, I have no advice, but if this game are equal.

Bleed builds can wreck block builds

Defile with CP is INSANE (add minor defile poison to flavor)

You can be equally defensive as well with many selections

The PvP environment has changed, the same ol' isn't the best (well the fotm)

I really really recommend going through some PvP builds here on the forums, full of wonderful ideas

It's not about the build,it's just that the game is too much forgiving,people are carried by mechanics and numbers and not by their skill level. I remember before thieves guild even if you were xv1ing you had to be careful because one mistake and you were dead,now its so easy to survive because you have a lot of damage even if you build for survivability

I dunno, I play someone like @Lexxypwns and I'll probably get curb stomped, I play some Joe smo I'll be the one stomping. Seems pretty skill based to me.

And lexxy will do it with a NB, and I'll be a Warden and Smo will be a Sorc

I see DKs with mad whips killing Smo in 3 seconds, the DK takes 2 min to kill me lol, seems skill kept me alive a bit longer

RFA shows up with a Templar he's gonna rock, etc etc

There is most certainly more tanky builds. But there are a LOT of viable build variation right now (except for Sorc as always)

Maryal wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Crom_CCCXVI wrote: »

NA PS4 server.

I have been playing this game since launch, seen all kinds of phases to the PvP game--- but I will say right now in CP, it sucks.
I like Non-CP, but no one plays..

CP looks like this:
A whole bunch of sheild stacking sorcs with amazingly high survivability vs a whole bunch of tanky players with amazingly high survivability.. (with the occassional nightblade or something, who won't kill any of the above 1 v 1 ) 75% of the 1 v 1's end in a draw, you have players from all factions just walking around trolling on "No Death" builds.. and it's stupid.

[...]
This isn't meant to be a troll post, just a concerned post from a long time player who doesn't like the direction this game has gone.

Here we go again. Where do you get your data that there are so many sorcs? Let me provide some data from my kill counter addon which has been collecting data over my periodic play over the last two years.



Okay, so basically kill counter has not been updated to include data on wardens (I'll probably take a crack at it myself before too much longer), and the data on wardens would be skewed by the difference in time anyway.

But lets take a look at the kills/deaths dealt and received from each class with a bit of commentary.

Kills are actually pretty even across the board:

• Templars (27.57%): Commonly used for healing in raids and probably the most common class to solo heal/zerg surf. I'd say this class is unusually common just for that.
• DK (20.14%): This number is likely the lowest because of how many DKs actually just roll as tanks.
• NightBlades (25.97%): NBs are what I view as the common foot soldier. "There are always at least 2 NBs in every screenshot" - Lilith Arujo
• Sorcs (22.53%): So I guess this the point of interest from the OP's bold statement. Less sorc kills than NB or templar. Is this because sorcs are so hard to kill, or are they merely not as common as you and half these forums think?

Now lets look at the "killed by" stats:

• Templars (21.01%): Recognizing that templars often roll as pure healers with maybe j-beam or jabs as an only attack
• Dks (14.77%): Interestingly low here. I contribute this again to the number of DK's that basically roll tanks.
• NBs (33.34%): Well, over a third of my deaths are to NBs, isn't that interesting?
• Sorcs (28.32%): Given the "fury-spamming kill-stealing easy-god-mode sorc class" isn't it interesting that this number isn't higher?

As one would expect, the healing and tank classes kill me the least, and the classes with strong burst and utility/mobility skills get the most kills.

So what does this mean for population balance? With maybe DKs being slightly underpopulated (or just tanky enough to basically dodge the kill counter stats), the overall diversity of cyrodill appears to be pretty much balanced.


TL;DR
I essentially disagree with your state of Cyrodiil assertion. It is not just a bunch of unkillable magsorcs against unkillable tanks with presumably all other players on other builds or classes that simply get fed into some sort of AP meat grinder.

Ty! Actually someone willing to provide legit data, which ofc will see a bit of variation. Very rare we see stuff like this.

If you log onto these Forums you would think nearly everyone is a Magicka Sorcerer (except for the people commenting here ofc ) and that Magicka Sorcerers are super super super super super easy mode in all content while also simultaneously being #1 in all content. Likewise, ZOS hates NBs who require astronomical amounts of skill to play and are doomed to be behind Magicka Sorc in every way, but if you play one you are highly skilled and not, I repeat, NOT, a meta player....

It's the type of discussion that raging PvPers who fail a gank and then die to Endless Fury can create overtime.

Nice data, but is the data showing percentages of all kills on a server during the time in question or is it just kills done by one person?

Given that most experienced players generally don't even bother with wasting their time trying to kill extremely high health builds (for obvious reasons), I don't think we can use a 'kill counter' as a way of measuring a non-event (i.e., a non-kill, or a player one avoids fighting with).

I realize that not all 'draws' are due to unkillable 'builds' .... sometimes (albeit infrequently) you can have two fairly evenly matched players (skills/builds/experience) (<-- not 'un-killable builds), but, more often, it is due to one or more builds being what we call un-killable. Sadly, I don't think there is a way to collect this type of statistic, at least not by any available add-ons. Maybe ZOS has a way to independently collect this type of data, or maybe they don't ... or .....maybe the only way they have to measure the magnitude of this type of problem is by the number of player complaints.

The data I posted is actually for all the players that I tagged who subsequently wound up dead pretty soon after (whether or not I landed the killing blow personally). Since I run in some pretty decent small and large groups with above average players, most of the "unkillable" players go down with the rest of the players I face.

As such, the data I gave is reasonably representative of the Cyrodiil population I have encountered during my time. I was hoping a couple other people would share their data to see whether it was comparable.

Also, having just gone through a medium sized chunk of code for Kill Counter, I'm pretty sure it archives all player characters that are encountered in cyrodiil (on enemy factions at least), so I could probably get it to spit out an actual count for each class seen rather than just killed.

Sylosi wrote: »

Drummerx04 wrote: »

So what does this mean for population balance?

It means absolutely nothing, because numbers are dependent upon how you play (e.g - someone that always plays with a group would get different numbers from someone who always plays solo), class balance, what time / campaign / faction you play etc. Then beyond all that it is only your data, which would not be statistically reliable by itself.

Yes but OP's "data" is somehow relevant?

This data is representative of PvP over 2 years. If once class truly was so ever dominant as op claims then that would have shown. Instead it is pretty balanced. So it means absolutely something.

What is truly laughable is not only the fact that the amount of mag sorcs in Cyrodiil is overstated by many people, but also that the amount of truly terrible sorcs vastly outnumbers the number of good/dangerous sorcs.

SodanTok wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

What is truly laughable is not only the fact that the amount of mag sorcs in Cyrodiil is overstated by many people, but also that the amount of truly terrible sorcs vastly outnumbers the number of good/dangerous sorcs.

That's true for every class.

But the number is overstated. Not intentionally tho, people do see more sorcs than they see other classes. MagSorcs are the most spottable class/setup in this game.
They are very effective from long range so you notice them and their dmg the most from zerg perspective.
They are very effective in engaging big group (just to kill 1-2 players with the combo) and streak away. Ganking Nightblades do this almost always invisible. You don't see any other class waiting around the horizon like magsorcs do. And except some stam build trying to spring away (often in vain) you dont see any other class getting away so successfully.
Plus they are very good at the surviving part. Even if they like to argue that dodge scales better with numbers. You dont see dodge roller engaging big groups that often as sorcs do (at least from my perspective), because they cant get away (other than, again, the invisible nightblades)
Not to mention I suspect most people cant even tell difference between light armor nightblade casters and sorcs.

So it is all literally about seeing. In reality IMO the difference between least used and most used class in PVP was never more than 5% (as of total population) in any patch and meta. Ignoring wardens.

That and the very, very obvious looking boundless storm. So easy to look around and go...

"sorc, some other class, some other class, some other class, sorc, some other class, sorc... (with 3 hidden NB's around) then think.. Havn't seen any Templars... I only see sorcs and other stuff.. those sorcs are everywhere!
Hardly see any NB's anymore.."

Maryal wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Crom_CCCXVI wrote: »

NA PS4 server.

I have been playing this game since launch, seen all kinds of phases to the PvP game--- but I will say right now in CP, it sucks.
I like Non-CP, but no one plays..

CP looks like this:
A whole bunch of sheild stacking sorcs with amazingly high survivability vs a whole bunch of tanky players with amazingly high survivability.. (with the occassional nightblade or something, who won't kill any of the above 1 v 1 ) 75% of the 1 v 1's end in a draw, you have players from all factions just walking around trolling on "No Death" builds.. and it's stupid.

[...]
This isn't meant to be a troll post, just a concerned post from a long time player who doesn't like the direction this game has gone.

Here we go again. Where do you get your data that there are so many sorcs? Let me provide some data from my kill counter addon which has been collecting data over my periodic play over the last two years.



Okay, so basically kill counter has not been updated to include data on wardens (I'll probably take a crack at it myself before too much longer), and the data on wardens would be skewed by the difference in time anyway.

But lets take a look at the kills/deaths dealt and received from each class with a bit of commentary.

Kills are actually pretty even across the board:

• Templars (27.57%): Commonly used for healing in raids and probably the most common class to solo heal/zerg surf. I'd say this class is unusually common just for that.
• DK (20.14%): This number is likely the lowest because of how many DKs actually just roll as tanks.
• NightBlades (25.97%): NBs are what I view as the common foot soldier. "There are always at least 2 NBs in every screenshot" - Lilith Arujo
• Sorcs (22.53%): So I guess this the point of interest from the OP's bold statement. Less sorc kills than NB or templar. Is this because sorcs are so hard to kill, or are they merely not as common as you and half these forums think?

Now lets look at the "killed by" stats:

• Templars (21.01%): Recognizing that templars often roll as pure healers with maybe j-beam or jabs as an only attack
• Dks (14.77%): Interestingly low here. I contribute this again to the number of DK's that basically roll tanks.
• NBs (33.34%): Well, over a third of my deaths are to NBs, isn't that interesting?
• Sorcs (28.32%): Given the "fury-spamming kill-stealing easy-god-mode sorc class" isn't it interesting that this number isn't higher?

As one would expect, the healing and tank classes kill me the least, and the classes with strong burst and utility/mobility skills get the most kills.

So what does this mean for population balance? With maybe DKs being slightly underpopulated (or just tanky enough to basically dodge the kill counter stats), the overall diversity of cyrodill appears to be pretty much balanced.


TL;DR
I essentially disagree with your state of Cyrodiil assertion. It is not just a bunch of unkillable magsorcs against unkillable tanks with presumably all other players on other builds or classes that simply get fed into some sort of AP meat grinder.

Ty! Actually someone willing to provide legit data, which ofc will see a bit of variation. Very rare we see stuff like this.

If you log onto these Forums you would think nearly everyone is a Magicka Sorcerer (except for the people commenting here ofc ) and that Magicka Sorcerers are super super super super super easy mode in all content while also simultaneously being #1 in all content. Likewise, ZOS hates NBs who require astronomical amounts of skill to play and are doomed to be behind Magicka Sorc in every way, but if you play one you are highly skilled and not, I repeat, NOT, a meta player....

It's the type of discussion that raging PvPers who fail a gank and then die to Endless Fury can create overtime.

Nice data, but is the data showing percentages of all kills on a server during the time in question or is it just kills done by one person?

Given that most experienced players generally don't even bother with wasting their time trying to kill extremely high health builds (for obvious reasons), I don't think we can use a 'kill counter' as a way of measuring a non-event (i.e., a non-kill, or a player one avoids fighting with).

I realize that not all 'draws' are due to unkillable 'builds' .... sometimes (albeit infrequently) you can have two fairly evenly matched players (skills/builds/experience) (<-- not 'un-killable builds), but, more often, it is due to one or more builds being what we call un-killable. Sadly, I don't think there is a way to collect this type of statistic, at least not by any available add-ons. Maybe ZOS has a way to independently collect this type of data, or maybe they don't ... or .....maybe the only way they have to measure the magnitude of this type of problem is by the number of player complaints.

There are a grand total of three players on the entire PC NA server that fit the scenario you describe above in that I will walk away. And that's only if I am alone. If I run in a group like the poster's data you are questioning, than Hattori Hanzo, Serra Draconis, and Escop are going to die and be added to the kill counter list.

In short, while not perfect, that data is a pretty solid representation of what goes on in PC NA. His numbers, both killed and killed by are commensurate with my own data collected over the past year (I got a new computer then) on my templar, which 9 times out of ten I am not in any group (and thus a very different play experience than the other poster):



Kills:

• Templar 30%
• Dragonknight 20%
• Nightblade 22%
• Sorcerer 24%

Without question, there are some NBs and sorcerers who successfully escaped who might otherwise died. But that number should not be exaggerated because there are also some Templar and Dragonknight players who survived because of their "tankiness" and didn't end up on my counter like squishy NBs and Sorcerers.

This is fairly representative of who runs what in PC NA. For all the claims that everyone plays FOTM, the fact is that most people don't. They play "their" class, or they play they class they are more interested at that moment, or maybe they play a perceived class because they like a challenge, or they play a class needed to fulfill a role in a group, or they play a class because it's been a few months and they want to break it out. If I go to Alessia Bridge to a random bridge fight, I will find all four of the original classes well represented. For all the whining and complaining on the forums, a skilled player can have success and a fun time on all of the classes, and thus there isn't that great of a need to jump on what people think is FOTM. Only in super competitive environments might warrant a switch from one class to another, but even this is overstated: a NB "bomber" is the best for guild PvP play, but I did just fine on a sorcerer.

Killed by:

• Templars 29.5%
• Dragonknights 11%
• Nightblades 28.5%
• Sorcerers 28%

This data is more scewed because mDKs are utterly terribly at getting killing blows. For being supposed gods of PvP, I don't find sorcerers particularly dangerous. I would say the templar figure there is probably over-representative because a lot of those kills are from me getting Jesus Beamed while getting zerged down, though again there are a lot of templars running around cyrodiil so they are going to get kills.

Yes I know these %s don't add up to 100: Kill Counter has not been updated to include Wardens.

This isn't to say there isn't going to be differences across platform and EU/NA, but I would bet real money that ZoS's own data would demonstrate all four original classes are decently represented at any time in cyrodiil, somewhere in the neighborhood of that "killed X class" data that I and @Drummerx04 are showing. For those that don't believe me, let me ask this question: Are you that sort of player who is a slave to the perceived meta', who looks up some streamer's build on youtube and plays that class because you are incapable of either formulating your own build or having success on a class that's perceived to be average?

Joy_Division wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Crom_CCCXVI wrote: »

NA PS4 server.

I have been playing this game since launch, seen all kinds of phases to the PvP game--- but I will say right now in CP, it sucks.
I like Non-CP, but no one plays..

CP looks like this:
A whole bunch of sheild stacking sorcs with amazingly high survivability vs a whole bunch of tanky players with amazingly high survivability.. (with the occassional nightblade or something, who won't kill any of the above 1 v 1 ) 75% of the 1 v 1's end in a draw, you have players from all factions just walking around trolling on "No Death" builds.. and it's stupid.

[...]
This isn't meant to be a troll post, just a concerned post from a long time player who doesn't like the direction this game has gone.

This isn't to say there isn't going to be differences across platform and EU/NA, but I would bet real money that ZoS's own data would demonstrate all four original classes are decently represented at any time in cyrodiil, somewhere in the neighborhood of that "killed X class" data that I and @Drummerx04 are showing. For those that don't believe me, let me ask this question: Are you that sort of player who is a slave to the perceived meta', who looks up some streamer's build on youtube and plays that class because you are incapable of either formulating your own build or having success on a class that's perceived to be average?

As someone that has kill counter data only from Morrowind. Is playing on EU CP only (since Morrowind) and spends 99% fighting people that make these statistics ( = 99% of players = big AvA fights, no battle grounds or duels or camping in some tower or under bridge) its pretty much exactly as you say. My are 21%/21%/24%/25% for kills (T/DK/NB/Sorc)

Ocelot9x wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Ocelot9x wrote: »

On ps4 EU the situation is really sad on cp.
Almost everyone is running a tanky build with high healing and sh*t dmg running in 4+ people group:it's solo player hell.
Survivability needs to be tuned down if you want damage and vice versa. So tired of those groups running 80%templars 20% mag dk crossing cyrodiil holding block.

If you're out numbered, I have no advice, but if this game are equal.

Bleed builds can wreck block builds

Defile with CP is INSANE (add minor defile poison to flavor)

You can be equally defensive as well with many selections

The PvP environment has changed, the same ol' isn't the best (well the fotm)

I really really recommend going through some PvP builds here on the forums, full of wonderful ideas

It's not about the build,it's just that the game is too much forgiving,people are carried by mechanics and numbers and not by their skill level. I remember before thieves guild even if you were xv1ing you had to be careful because one mistake and you were dead,now its so easy to survive because you have a lot of damage even if you build for survivability

I think people forget that players are better now. Take the first year, I imagine people collectively didnt understand anything. You can now watch a handful of people on youtube with 3+ years of exp for advice on anything from builds to mechanics for explanation let alone from in game