DK's Dragon Fire Scales don't reflect Warden's Cliff Racer?

KeiruNicrom · September 2017

I have always considered the skill more of a summon than a projectile. The animation even alludes to such. You arent throwing teradactyl birds at people you arent launching them or anything, they dont even come from you, they fly in from the sky once you have told them who to attack. Why they are undodgable we may never know but they certainly shouldnt be refectable

Jade1986 · September 2017

Yes, lets jst make ranged classes even more irrelevant by making cliff racers reflectable, its not like there are add ons that completely poo all over ranged classes atm....wait.

Sneaky-Snurr · September 2017

Luigi_Vampa wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

The question is, why is the skill undodgable? Any reasonable answers from ZoS as of yet?

As mentioned a few times already in this thread, it is undodgeable because ZOS (Wrobel directly said this on an ESO Live) the animation and travel time for the Cliff Racer is so long and obvious that if it was dodgeable it would never hit anybody.

@Luigi_Vampa
Thank you for clarifying me what the braindead @Wrobel blurt out. So according to his logic, Snipe should be undodgable too?? What the ferkkkk?

MythicEmperor · September 2017

If anything, I find our cliff racers too weak. TES: 3 makes this clear. It will take a saint to stop them, and he isn't to free Vvardenfell from its feathery bondage for another era.

Betsararie · September 2017

MythicEmperor wrote: »

cliff racers too weak

That's simply untrue

Krayzie · September 2017

The funny thing is, if they never gave this pathetic excuse that "it cast slow, sorry, can't dodge it LOL" people wouldn't be pretending that this is fair and not a zergling spammable.

Dr.NRG · September 2017

Besides the cliff racer being such a broken skill, do you really expext to reflect a bird on impact flying back and the caster?? Lmao, this would be beyond dumb and unimersive.

starkerealm · September 2017

CarbonX wrote: »

LMar wrote: »

Birds are not projectiles. Cliff racer is not reflectable or dodgable

Anything can be/act as a projectile.

From the English dictionary:

projectile
n
1. an object or body thrown forwards
2. ...
3. ...
4. capable of being or designed to be hurled forwards

Yeah, but the bird isn't being thrown, it's chasing you under its own power, just like the cliff racers of old. The horrific, flying, screaming deathbuckets of old.

starkerealm · September 2017

Vapirko wrote: »

Cliff racer is not the only thing warden has going for it in pvp. The healing ulti is currently one of the most op skills in pvp. And I say this as someone who pairs with a friend using the ulti. It's essentially a giant no kill zone. And ulti gensso fast. It can bring any match to a stand still just about. I love having it on my team but it's crazy strong. And cliff racer is absolutely deadly because it can become a last ditch effort dpammable abilty that has no counterplay. So you can burst your opponent down but all they have to do is spam that ability at you and plenty of times they're strong enough to kill you.

Yeah, I think I've seen one kill inside the Healing Ultimate in PvP. I'm not sure it's overpowered, because it could just be I'm terrible at PvP. But, I doubt that's the issue.

starkerealm · September 2017

Krayzie wrote: »

The funny thing is, if they never gave this pathetic excuse that "it cast slow, sorry, can't dodge it LOL" people wouldn't be pretending that this is fair and not a zergling spammable.

Yeah, the real problem here is that you can animation cancel the cliff racer and still have the ability fire. So, not just spammable, ridiculously spammable.

R_K · September 2017

It's called Pay to Win. The goal was clearly to make Warden an attractive option at the launch of Morrowind.

Judging from the relatively low number of Wardrns that I have seen playing in the last week or so, I would say that that design goal failed.

starkerealm · September 2017

R_K wrote: »

It's called Pay to Win. The goal was clearly to make Warden an attractive option at the launch of Morrowind.

Judging from the relatively low number of Wardrns that I have seen playing in the last week or so, I would say that that design goal failed.

No offense, @R_K, but this thought process still cracks me up a bit.

Back before the Warden dropped, a handful of people climbed onto the forums and went, "no, it's going to be P2W, it's the end of all things!" And, hey, credit where credit's due, that's an absolutely legitimate fear, when you're dealing with a pay gated class in a game.

A lot of people who had the opportunity to actually spend time with the warden pretty quickly came to the conclusion that, "no, it's strong, but not so powerful that it's pay to win." I mean, there were some diverging perceptions there. But, the general consensus among people who knew what they were talking about was, "it's cool, it's got its own role, but it's not P2W."

However, because of the Morrowind NDA, no one in the beta could say anything. So a few people took their, "it's P2W" narrative on the road with the goal of leveraging concessions from ZOS... which didn't happen. They got ignored.

But, you still have a lot of players who had been told that the class was P2W, and trusted the people telling them this.

Then they actually got their hands on the class thinking it would be absurdly over powered. Turns out, it's not. It's okay. You can use it. It has a few annoying tricks up its sleeves, just like everyone else. It holds up well overall, but it's not an obscenely powerful class. So, for Skyreach Kids who bought the Warden hoping it would be their "I Win" button, it's not. It's cool, and just like the base 4 classes, you can leverage some fun and nifty stuff out of it. But, it was never hilariously overpowered the way a few members of the community claimed when they were performing their Chicken Little routine.

Betheny · September 2017

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYG0YWdkSKI

Magdalina · September 2017

I'm still trying to wrap my head around what the deep underlying difference is between Cliffracers, Frags and Dark Flare.

Cliffracers have no technical cast time(!!) afaik, just a sort of delay on first cast, visual tell, slow-ish travel time...so undodgeable and unreflectable, okay.

Frags have a cast time unless on proc, very clear tell, very slow travel times, dodgeable, reflectable and I think even cleanseable.

Flare always has a cast time(!!), has a visual and audio tell and slow travel time, is dodgeable and reflectable.

...it's not that I'd actually want Frags and Flare to be unavoidable, but how the heck does it make any sense?

Parrot1986 · September 2017

Magdalina wrote: »

I'm still trying to wrap my head on what the deep underlying difference is between Cliffracers, Frags and Dark Flare.

Cliffracers have no technical cast time(!!) afaik, just a sort of delay on first cast, visual tell, slow-ish travel time...so undodgeable and unreflectable, okay.

Frags have a cast time unless on proc, very clear tell, very slow travel times, dodgeable, reflectable and I think even cleanseable.

Flare always has a cast time(!!), has a visual and audio tell and slow travel time, is dodgeable and reflectable.

...it's not that I'd actually want Frags and Flare to be unavoidable, but how the heck does it make any sense?

If you're hard casting frags you deserve to have that **** reflected back to you but dark flare point is spot on, it doesn't make sense why cliff racer isn't reflectable but it's what Wrobel wanted so those two things seem to go hand in hand

Alcast · September 2017

Reflective Scales do not reflect anything anymore

Luigi_Vampa · September 2017

Magdalina wrote: »

I'm still trying to wrap my head on what the deep underlying difference is between Cliffracers, Frags and Dark Flare.

Cliffracers have no technical cast time(!!) afaik, just a sort of delay on first cast, visual tell, slow-ish travel time...so undodgeable and unreflectable, okay.

Frags have a cast time unless on proc, very clear tell, very slow travel times, dodgeable, reflectable and I think even cleanseable.

Flare always has a cast time(!!), has a visual and audio tell and slow travel time, is dodgeable and reflectable.

...it's not that I'd actually want Frags and Flare to be unavoidable, but how the heck does it make any sense?

It was also the fact that Wrobel and Co thought that reflecting a bird back would look stupid as all hell... and it would. It was a combination of all those things. Personally I hate the skill. Not because it is undodgeable or unreflectable but because I think it is one of the ugliest skills in this game. It looks stupid, it sounds stupid and it feels clunky. I would have preferred the Wardens spammable be an Ice Spear or something like that. Cliff Racer would have been better as a pet or just not added at all.

Magdalina · September 2017

Parrot1986 wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

I'm still trying to wrap my head on what the deep underlying difference is between Cliffracers, Frags and Dark Flare.

Cliffracers have no technical cast time(!!) afaik, just a sort of delay on first cast, visual tell, slow-ish travel time...so undodgeable and unreflectable, okay.

Frags have a cast time unless on proc, very clear tell, very slow travel times, dodgeable, reflectable and I think even cleanseable.

Flare always has a cast time(!!), has a visual and audio tell and slow travel time, is dodgeable and reflectable.

...it's not that I'd actually want Frags and Flare to be unavoidable, but how the heck does it make any sense?

If you're hard casting frags you deserve to have that **** reflected back to you but dark flare point is spot on, it doesn't make sense why cliff racer isn't reflectable but it's what Wrobel wanted so those two things seem to go hand in hand

Frags is reflected even if cast on proc. And while it generally procs often and most people only use it when proc'd, it means it cannot be spammed - frags don't prog frags so you gotta at least do a few other skills' cast after one to proc another. Meanwhile, dem 8k+(and that's no cp!) cliffracers? No issues whatsoever.

Logic>.<

Lylith · September 2017

Magdalina wrote: »

Parrot1986 wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

I'm still trying to wrap my head on what the deep underlying difference is between Cliffracers, Frags and Dark Flare.

Cliffracers have no technical cast time(!!) afaik, just a sort of delay on first cast, visual tell, slow-ish travel time...so undodgeable and unreflectable, okay.

Frags have a cast time unless on proc, very clear tell, very slow travel times, dodgeable, reflectable and I think even cleanseable.

Flare always has a cast time(!!), has a visual and audio tell and slow travel time, is dodgeable and reflectable.

...it's not that I'd actually want Frags and Flare to be unavoidable, but how the heck does it make any sense?

If you're hard casting frags you deserve to have that **** reflected back to you but dark flare point is spot on, it doesn't make sense why cliff racer isn't reflectable but it's what Wrobel wanted so those two things seem to go hand in hand

Frags is reflected even if cast on proc. And while it generally procs often and most people only use it when proc'd, it means it cannot be spammed - frags don't prog frags so you gotta at least do a few other skills' cast after one to proc another. Meanwhile, dem 8k+(and that's no cp!) cliffracers? No issues whatsoever.

Logic>.<

and yet i got hit by three frags from one player in under three seconds yesterday. no other damage, just frags.

magical.

Arobain · September 2017

need to understand that life itself does not go by the dictionary meaning of things, the bird is not what normal humans consider to be a projectile, thats the reason

MehrunesFlagon · September 2017

Parrot1986 wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

I'm still trying to wrap my head on what the deep underlying difference is between Cliffracers, Frags and Dark Flare.

Cliffracers have no technical cast time(!!) afaik, just a sort of delay on first cast, visual tell, slow-ish travel time...so undodgeable and unreflectable, okay.

Frags have a cast time unless on proc, very clear tell, very slow travel times, dodgeable, reflectable and I think even cleanseable.

Flare always has a cast time(!!), has a visual and audio tell and slow travel time, is dodgeable and reflectable.

...it's not that I'd actually want Frags and Flare to be unavoidable, but how the heck does it make any sense?

If you're hard casting frags you deserve to have that **** reflected back to you but dark flare point is spot on, it doesn't make sense why cliff racer isn't reflectable but it's what Wrobel wanted so those two things seem to go hand in hand

do we care what wrobel wants.I would say just get rid of the delay.

sphane · September 2017

It has been proven by angry birds franchise that birds are projectiles. Should be reflectable.

Reverb · September 2017

Magdalina wrote: »

I'm still trying to wrap my head on what the deep underlying difference is between Cliffracers, Frags and Dark Flare.

Cliffracers have no technical cast time(!!) afaik, just a sort of delay on first cast, visual tell, slow-ish travel time...so undodgeable and unreflectable, okay.

Frags have a cast time unless on proc, very clear tell, very slow travel times, dodgeable, reflectable and I think even cleanseable.

Flare always has a cast time(!!), has a visual and audio tell and slow travel time, is dodgeable and reflectable.

...it's not that I'd actually want Frags and Flare to be unavoidable, but how the heck does it make any sense?

While everything you've said here is true, the secondary effects deserve to be taken into consideration as well. Shards have a knockdown and stun, Flare defiles and empowers, and the bird is spammable, but has no effect other than damage.

I think to bring them more in line, shards should be left alone, Flare should be given a chance to insta-cast, and the bird should be made dodgable, but be given a secondary effect like a snare. I could make a case for it remaining unreflectable, but not undodgable.

R_K · September 2017

starkerealm wrote: »

R_K wrote: »

It's called Pay to Win. The goal was clearly to make Warden an attractive option at the launch of Morrowind.

Judging from the relatively low number of Wardrns that I have seen playing in the last week or so, I would say that that design goal failed.

No offense, @R_K, but this thought process still cracks me up a bit.

Back before the Warden dropped, a handful of people climbed onto the forums and went, "no, it's going to be P2W, it's the end of all things!" And, hey, credit where credit's due, that's an absolutely legitimate fear, when you're dealing with a pay gated class in a game.

A lot of people who had the opportunity to actually spend time with the warden pretty quickly came to the conclusion that, "no, it's strong, but not so powerful that it's pay to win." I mean, there were some diverging perceptions there. But, the general consensus among people who knew what they were talking about was, "it's cool, it's got its own role, but it's not P2W."

However, because of the Morrowind NDA, no one in the beta could say anything. So a few people took their, "it's P2W" narrative on the road with the goal of leveraging concessions from ZOS... which didn't happen. They got ignored.

But, you still have a lot of players who had been told that the class was P2W, and trusted the people telling them this.

Then they actually got their hands on the class thinking it would be absurdly over powered. Turns out, it's not. It's okay. You can use it. It has a few annoying tricks up its sleeves, just like everyone else. It holds up well overall, but it's not an obscenely powerful class. So, for Skyreach Kids who bought the Warden hoping it would be their "I Win" button, it's not. It's cool, and just like the base 4 classes, you can leverage some fun and nifty stuff out of it. But, it was never hilariously overpowered the way a few members of the community claimed when they were performing their Chicken Little routine.

So, in summary, we agree. Cool.

Korah_Eaglecry · September 2017

Its not being used as a projectile. Its an animal diving into you. Projectiles are something that in itself does not have the ability to move but rather is moved by an external force.

bmannb16_ESO · September 2017

Vapirko wrote: »

Cliff racer is not the only thing warden has going for it in pvp. The healing ulti is currently one of the most op skills in pvp. And I say this as someone who pairs with a friend using the ulti. It's essentially a giant no kill zone. And ulti gensso fast. It can bring any match to a stand still just about. I love having it on my team but it's crazy strong. And cliff racer is absolutely deadly because it can become a last ditch effort dpammable abilty that has no counterplay. So you can burst your opponent down but all they have to do is spam that ability at you and plenty of times they're strong enough to kill you.

This plus the broken Kill Wardens quest make them many peoples target of choice.

Sordidfairytale · September 2017

Vizikul wrote: »

Well, it would be kinda hilarious if a Beastmaster like the Warden got attacked by his own creatures.
You command your bird to attack a DK, he uses Dragon Scales and your bird is like "ooooh, those scales. Nope, not gonna sh*t on the dragonborn. I'm on his side now. Take that, a**hole!"
I guess you gotta tame them better.

Funniest thing I saw recently was a DK spamming attacks at Grobull while it was up in the air and then watching their Maw of the Infernal get summoned, turn round, and attack them.

Samadhi · September 2017

KeiruNicrom wrote: »

I have always considered the skill more of a summon than a projectile. The animation even alludes to such. You arent throwing teradactyl birds at people you arent launching them or anything, they dont even come from you, they fly in from the sky once you have told them who to attack. Why they are undodgable we may never know but they certainly shouldnt be refectable

It also functions as a summon in terms of passives,
after it hits, it procs the heal bonus from Bond With Nature for being unsummoned or killed
that has been its only saving grace to me to put it on my bar

Do not bother with this skill in PvP since Warden can do more interesting things than spam racer
but, presumably, it does not reflect since it would just launch it back into the sky rather than turning around and flying at the Warden
no personal objections to it being made reflectable tho

As an aside from DKs, can a Warden 'reflect' Cliff Racer with Crystallized Slab?
since it states it absorbs incoming objects then fires an Ice projectile back

Stannum · September 2017

Racer is not projectile, it's self guided summon.

Enslaved · September 2017

How on nirn would you reflect a 25kg screaming dinosaur flying into your f face, man? All you can do is block.