adding difficult content and warframe

Wing · September 2017

so picked up warframe recently as I decided bungie would never again trick me into giving them my money and it was the best decision I ever made.

its grindy as heck but boy does it do it right. its a material grind and not rng based pretty much, so every time you do something you make constant progress.

anyway, the way the game approaches its difficulty is what amazed me, and I would love to see this in more games.

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standard dungeon procedure has the most difficult fight at the end, the boss fight. meaning if you get to then end and cannot win you wasted a lot of time, and you would not know you could not win UNTIL you got to the end fight. WE HAVE ALL wasted time fighting through a dungeon to fail at a boss and quit, its not fun.

what warframe does (and I'm using its survival quests as the main point) is you enter survival that takes place over the coarse of a dungeon (tile set) its pretty easy early on, after 5 mintues (not hard at all) of killing enemies and gathering loot and resources the mission "completes", you can proceed to the finish point and complete the dungeon.

HOWEVER

the survival keeps going, every 5 minutes you get another reward, you keep killing enemies and getting loot, and enemies continue to advance in difficulty. this goes on FOREVER to the point where you deal less and less damage and enemies are stronger and stronger.

AT ANY POINT during this time you can head to the finish and complete the dungeon (after the first 5 minutes)

what this means is you can play until you hit your exact point of cannot proceed any longer and leave, and be rewarded accordingly.

this has become an endgame bragging right (i know a 4 man that stayed in a survival for over 10 hours straight and now its on the global leaderboards for all to see)

this is a perfect mechanic to design content for all play levels, as its easy for anyone to play for a few minutes and leave, but end game players can test how long they can run for.

solo or small man

new or vet

everyone can play for as long as they feel they can.

I would LOVE to see more games (and ESO) adopt this gameplay.

Runefang · September 2017

I don't like the idea personally.

I feel like starting group content is like signing a contract. You're in with your team mates until the end, getting to the end is the only goal. Having shorter milestone rewards means somebody can jump out after 5 minutes and leave the rest of the group having to start again.

dpencil1 · September 2017

Left 4 Dead 2 had a pretty good Survival Mode. I think vMA is pretty close, though the lack of any randomness makes it more predictable.

Dymence · September 2017

I'm surprised you'd say warframe does it's grind right.

Warframe is INSANELY grindy and will burn you out after a few months. And to say it's not RNG based lol, I don't know what Warframe you are playing.

Anyway a survival type of game mode only suits that game since it's a 1vs1000 game where you just kill hordes of enemies. It doesn't fit into a game like ESO.

Wing · September 2017

Dymence wrote: »

I'm surprised you'd say warframe does it's grind right.

Warframe is INSANELY grindy and will burn you out after a few months. And to say it's not RNG based lol, I don't know what Warframe you are playing.

Anyway a survival type of game mode only suits that game since it's a 1vs1000 game where you just kill hordes of enemies. It doesn't fit into a game like ESO.

yes warframe is very grindy, the whole point is grinding new stuff. but if you enjoy the core gameplay its not going to feel like a grind at all (though I admit I don't like spy missions :C)

how its does this right compared to almost every other game is thus:

most games have a set weapon, or a weapon with set rolls on that weapon, (other MMO's, VMA, destiny, the division, etc) you then play content where that weapon / thing drops, and pray to RNG'sus that it shows up, then if it even shows up and has variable rolls, that its a "decent" or "god" roll and not trash (other MMO's, VMA, destiny, the division, etc)

how warframe works for the majority of stuff is you can get the blueprint of a weapon from the market or clan dojo for some credits (gold, money, cash, whatever) and then they have a list of materials (1000 rubedo hide, 500 tannin, 200 style mat, etc if I had to translate to eso) these mats drop from numerous quests simply from killing enemies or smashing containers.

no matter what you run, or how little you play at a time, every time you play you get more materials towards your goal (and often lots of materials you don't need yet but will for something else inevitably later)

you always make progress, measurable, tractable, plannable, progress. no doing a dungeon or VMA or whatever and hoping you get lucky (and seeing some first timer get what you were looking for)

yes it has some of the classical rng associated with it, but to have the majority of that core system built around this is just great after playing games were you are at the mercy of rng and can play for hours and make no progress towards your goal.

I would love it if ESO added a horde style mode and I feel with the engine built around having 100s of characters in battle at once (cyrodil) it should take advantage of that capacity more often.

its far more satisfying to kill 50 weak enemies in a horde then it is to roll there stats up into 1 monster and have you slug away at it. that's not saying the classic boss monster does not have its place. but the horde mode power fantasy should have its place too.

idk · September 2017

The continuous long term nature of what OP describes seems more like a lame design.

First, OP describes every player will most certainly fail at some point since there is not completion.

Second, it is merely a different grind that must be done over and over from what OP describes.

Third, there is no completion. Who cares if someone stood their ground for 10 hours and ultimately had to quit.

It is also not an MMORPG. It is a shooter game that has some multiplayer access. Not comparable in any manner.

OP even states the game is very grindy (and clearly a very lame grind). Fail to see how a different and lame grind is any sort of improvement.

MLGProPlayer · September 2017

I played a bit of Warframe but gave up early on because:

- The content is repetitive and uninspired (you're just killing hordes of copy and pasted mobs)

- It's insanely grindy

- The best heroes and weapons are only available for a limited time before they are discontinued and sold for real money (this makes it extremely difficult for new players to get into the game without spending real money); it's basically a P2W game

Dymence · September 2017

Wing wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

I'm surprised you'd say warframe does it's grind right.

Warframe is INSANELY grindy and will burn you out after a few months. And to say it's not RNG based lol, I don't know what Warframe you are playing.

Anyway a survival type of game mode only suits that game since it's a 1vs1000 game where you just kill hordes of enemies. It doesn't fit into a game like ESO.

yes warframe is very grindy, the whole point is grinding new stuff. but if you enjoy the core gameplay its not going to feel like a grind at all (though I admit I don't like spy missions :C)

how its does this right compared to almost every other game is thus:

most games have a set weapon, or a weapon with set rolls on that weapon, (other MMO's, VMA, destiny, the division, etc) you then play content where that weapon / thing drops, and pray to RNG'sus that it shows up, then if it even shows up and has variable rolls, that its a "decent" or "god" roll and not trash (other MMO's, VMA, destiny, the division, etc)

how warframe works for the majority of stuff is you can get the blueprint of a weapon from the market or clan dojo for some credits (gold, money, cash, whatever) and then they have a list of materials (1000 rubedo hide, 500 tannin, 200 style mat, etc if I had to translate to eso) these mats drop from numerous quests simply from killing enemies or smashing containers.

no matter what you run, or how little you play at a time, every time you play you get more materials towards your goal (and often lots of materials you don't need yet but will for something else inevitably later)

you always make progress, measurable, tractable, plannable, progress. no doing a dungeon or VMA or whatever and hoping you get lucky (and seeing some first timer get what you were looking for)

yes it has some of the classical rng associated with it, but to have the majority of that core system built around this is just great after playing games were you are at the mercy of rng and can play for hours and make no progress towards your goal.

I would love it if ESO added a horde style mode and I feel with the engine built around having 100s of characters in battle at once (cyrodil) it should take advantage of that capacity more often.

its far more satisfying to kill 50 weak enemies in a horde then it is to roll there stats up into 1 monster and have you slug away at it. that's not saying the classic boss monster does not have its place. but the horde mode power fantasy should have its place too.

The new Transmutation system coming in the next update for ESO will do away with trash & god tier rolls as you will just need the piece of gear and can then put whatever trait onto it that you like.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

- The best heroes and weapons are only available for a limited time before they are discontinued and sold for real money (this makes it extremely difficult for new players to get into the game without spending real money); it's basically a P2W game

This is false. The only frames that are discontinued are primes (which take a VERY long time to be discontinued) which are essentially just slightly stronger and better looking frames of the original. And then you can still trade them from other players that have parts. Getting the cash shop currency in that game is very easy without ever spending a single cent.

But it's enitrely offtopic concerning the OP's suggestion.

DeadlyRecluse · September 2017

TBH I'd rather have an RNG grind than the insane thing that is the warframe grind.

Don't get me wrong, I like warframe for what it is, but the grinds-on-grinds nature of it is really frustrating at times.