Level scaling is a deal breaker

kmontywrwb17_ESO · September 2017

Just want to let you know that level scaling has made this game unplayable for me. I get that a lot of people like it, and that's a good thing. It just destroys any progression for me. It's no longer an RPG.

I wish I'd remembered that before buying back into the game (after leaving it during the trial). My fault. If the game ever reverts, I'll be back, as it's beautiful and compelling in all other regards.

Betheny · September 2017

Uh huh.

Jamini · September 2017

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

AbysmalGhul · September 2017

Was this an open letter to your feelings?

kargen27 · September 2017

Why is it a deal breaker?

kmontywrwb17_ESO · September 2017

AbysmalGhul wrote: »

Was this an open letter to your feelings?

To the devs, actually. You never know, they may decide to address the issue in the future, and if so, they're aware quite of few of us would be playing if not for scaling. That's all, carry on.

Malacthulhu · September 2017

kmontywrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Just want to let you know that level scaling has made this game unplayable for me. I get that a lot of people like it, and that's a good thing. It just destroys any progression for me. It's no longer an RPG.

I wish I'd remembered that before buying back into the game (after leaving it during the trial). My fault. If the game ever reverts, I'll be back, as it's beautiful and compelling in all other regards.

You haven't really said how it destroys progression for you and on what level ypu consider an mmo to be an mmorpg. So I have to ask whats the point of your thread?

ParaNostram · September 2017

Level scaling is kind of one of the better things about this MMO, it's literally a selling point. Don't hold your breath for this to be reverted.

Also, there is still progression via Champion Points and gear.

kmontywrwb17_ESO · September 2017

Malacthulhu wrote: »

haven't really said how it destroys progression for you and on what level ypu consider an mmo to be an mmorpg. So I have to ask whats the point of your thread?

I explained why I posted above. If there is no power progression and everything scales to match where you're at, it's no longer an RPG system. It's something else. It's an absolute difference, and effects every other area of the game. What is the point of levels if there is no difference between a level 1 area and a level 50 area?

I didn't explain that because it's all been said before and the same counter arguments will now be proffered with the same disdain and disagreement. Fair enough, and hey ***. For many of us it's a deal breaker.

Zypheran · September 2017

I don't personally agree with the OP but for god sake, can a person not express a stance without being piled upon. OP doesn't like scaling and that's a valid stance to take. Its important that devs know how people like or dislike aspects of the game

Tandor · September 2017

Zypheran wrote: »

I don't personally agree with the OP but for god sake, can a person not express a stance without being piled upon. OP doesn't like scaling and that's a valid stance to take. Its important that devs know how people like or dislike aspects of the game

If the OP simply wanted to inform ZOS of his view then he could have PMd or emailed them. By posting his view on a discussion board he is inviting.... a discussion.

Personally, I like the One Tamriel system, it has enabled me to do DLCs at any stage in a character's progression rather than having to wait until they're level 50 for fear of over-leveling the base game content (which still happened to a lesser extent by the mid-30s anyway). Fighting grey mobs for no reward was for me as weak a form of progression as level scaling is for the OP.

I still feel the progression as a character levels every bit as much as I did before, the levels or CPs are increasing as are the skill levels and gear.

However, I appreciate that a few players don't share that view of One Tamriel, although clearly an awful lot do because not only have most players survived One Tamriel but many more players returned to ESO or were attracted to it for the first time precisely because of One Tamriel. Each to his/her own, and I wish the OP well in whichever other RPG/MMORPG he moves on to.

kargen27 · September 2017

kmontywrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Malacthulhu wrote: »

haven't really said how it destroys progression for you and on what level ypu consider an mmo to be an mmorpg. So I have to ask whats the point of your thread?

I explained why I posted above. If there is no power progression and everything scales to match where you're at, it's no longer an RPG system. It's something else. It's an absolute difference, and effects every other area of the game. What is the point of levels if there is no difference between a level 1 area and a level 50 area?

I didn't explain that because it's all been said before and the same counter arguments will now be proffered with the same disdain and disagreement. Fair enough, and hey ***. For many of us it's a deal breaker.

Don't assign your champion points and stay in low level gear. It won't give you tiers of difficulty like before the change but the game will at least provide some challenge as you progress. I didn't care for the change either but wasn't enough to make me quit.
I'm still unsure why your perceived lack of progression lends itself to destroying role playing. If you play a character that seeks challenges above his skill level there is still that opportunity in the game through world bosses and other content.

You said it is no longer an RPG system but you haven't said why, nor have you defined what the RPG system was. I just want to understand your perspective. For me the level scaling made most the content to easy so I've tried to adapt.

Malacthulhu · September 2017

Zypheran wrote: »

I don't personally agree with the OP but for god sake, can a person not express a stance without being piled upon. OP doesn't like scaling and that's a valid stance to take. Its important that devs know how people like or dislike aspects of the game

I was simply asking for more details. The posters above me were being jerks in my opinion. It is a game so it should reward a player through gameplay and learning mechanics not for vicariously grinding. I get some people like that but, the scaling system has no impact to a rp system. If anything why would wolf in zone a be stronger then wolf in zone b if its the same wolf, that breaks immersion otherwise. My apologies if me asking questions makes you feel like you are being piled up on.

geonsocal · September 2017

progression should come with a better understanding of game mechanics and most importantly - an increase in a players skill level...

seedubsrun · September 2017

I think what the OP means by destroying the RPG aspect of things is that some of us are more used to creating a toon and having them not quite be ready for a lot of the challenges in the game. As you level up and get better you can start taking on these challenges and it feels more like you're with your character as they grow into the hero they're meant to be. With level scaling that's basically non existent and since the overland questing is the biggest part of the RP experience in this game that left a bad taste in their mouth. I get it. I take issue with the ease of 90% of the game too. Especially when leveling a new toon where 1-50 can be soooooo boring. 1T brought in a bunch of people though and made the game much more accessible. That's money in Zos' pocket right there and they'll never go back now

Peekachu99 · September 2017

Except you keep accruing CP and better/ upgraded gear sets, so the traditional power creep is less apparent but still very present. Levelled enemies mean nothing to a fully gold-wearing 660 CP toon.

SirAndy · September 2017

kmontywrwb17_ESO wrote: »

What is the point of levels if there is no difference between a level 1 area and a level 50 area?

You clearly haven't leveled past 50 yet, otherwise you would not have written the above sentence ...

Asardes · September 2017

Want progression? Go into some harder content. Overland mobs were trash and remain trash. The melt from 2-3 AoE ticks. Solkin Voriak is waiting for you. As for scaling I was constantly outleveling the zones I went trough just exploring and doing quests. Not to mention the useless gear that was already 5-10 levels below. One Tamriel saved the game.

DMuehlhausen · September 2017

Malacthulhu wrote: »

kmontywrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Just want to let you know that level scaling has made this game unplayable for me. I get that a lot of people like it, and that's a good thing. It just destroys any progression for me. It's no longer an RPG.

I wish I'd remembered that before buying back into the game (after leaving it during the trial). My fault. If the game ever reverts, I'll be back, as it's beautiful and compelling in all other regards.

You haven't really said how it destroys progression for you and on what level ypu consider an mmo to be an mmorpg. So I have to ask whats the point of your thread?

I wouldn't quit over it but I'm with him.

It kills progression because when you go back to old/starter areas you don't feel anymore powerful than when you started. Mobs are all the same level as you same gear level etc. It's the same problem in the stand alone single player games. Yu kill some bandits in fur right out of the gate. Come back there 15 levels later and they are wearing ebon armor. They should be still wearing fur, or maybe a step above, but they shouldn't be on the same level as my character.

STEVIL · September 2017

kmontywrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Just want to let you know that level scaling has made this game unplayable for me. I get that a lot of people like it, and that's a good thing. It just destroys any progression for me. It's no longer an RPG.

I wish I'd remembered that before buying back into the game (after leaving it during the trial). My fault. If the game ever reverts, I'll be back, as it's beautiful and compelling in all other regards.

and then...

kmontywrwb17_ESO wrote: »

I explained why I posted above. If there is no power progression and everything scales to match where you're at, it's no longer an RPG system. It's something else. It's an absolute difference, and effects every other area of the game. What is the point of levels if there is no difference between a level 1 area and a level 50 area?

I didn't explain that because it's all been said before and the same counter arguments will now be proffered with the same disdain and disagreement. Fair enough, and hey ***. For many of us it's a deal breaker.

Fine enough but here is My POV.

As someone for whom playing RPGs "with progression" goes back to blue boxes showing red dragons, hardcover books with folks prying at the eyes of a large grinning statue and little black books wherein their be jump drives, i get the myth of progression ! levels. it has been there since the beginning. - this myth of the linkage between levels and progression.

It carried thru all the way to ESO and for a long while before they did get the idea to pull back the curtain and fess up that progression is not about levels and not about numbers but about capability.

Right now in DND 5e the "progression is levels is progression" is still there with at each new level threats dialed up to match and more Xp to make next level but more Xp for each kill and so on and so on and like most anyone with middle school math can tell you *when you adjust both sides of the equals by the same amount, you have not really changed things relatively speaking."

So now in ESO after 1T i no longer have to stay on the path to keep the "progression" on pace or in sync. Now i cannot "outlevel" the content or "outlevel" the rewards.

But i still get "more powerful" because "power" is gained by having mnay more options to make cohesively combine and yield more than the sum of their parts.

If progression was about "levels" then the keys to top end play would not be a well developed rotation and coordinated series of events - you got your level and your gear what more do you need?

But in fact "progression" in power in this game is achieved by getting the broad variety of skills and morphs and passives all in concert with the gear choices and so on (quite a bit of which can only be gotten from dungeons) and making them work together in the best way possible.

You gain more in terms of "able to beat opposition" from getting more unlocks and more elements to a well done rotation than you ever did by levels against similarly leveled content.

That still remains true.

And if you dont see a difference between a level 1 zone like say glenumbra and a level 50 one like bangkorai, you are playing a much different game. the "early zones" have many more "singles" and fewer multi-type threats. that is because it is expected they will be hitting characters with only a few unlocked skills, while the later zones aput more challenges at once at the PCs because they are built with the opposite ideas in mind.

take brand new characters with few skills and little gear into wrothgar or hews bane or gold coast or morrowind as start-off and compare how that plays out as compared to going thru the khenarthi, auridon etc.

my bet is most will see a difference.

its IMO one of the failings in morrowind. its billed as a starter zone but its setup more like a DLC in terms of questing. i dont mind the DLCish feel of it, but thats because i have no need to develop starter characters in that zone at DLC quest pacing.

So, to me, having long ago in my own mind and gameplay experience divorced the idea of "levels" from "progression" and long ago saw what the mathematical "property of equality" and the CR/XP model for RPGs meant to each other, the ESO "sclaec content" simply removed a lot of myth that was bogging down so much of the gameplay.

As a result, same feeling of progression and no longer "restricted" to only a few "worthwhile zones" at any given time.

So, win win.

FoolishHuman · September 2017

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

Malacthulhu wrote: »

kmontywrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Just want to let you know that level scaling has made this game unplayable for me. I get that a lot of people like it, and that's a good thing. It just destroys any progression for me. It's no longer an RPG.

I wish I'd remembered that before buying back into the game (after leaving it during the trial). My fault. If the game ever reverts, I'll be back, as it's beautiful and compelling in all other regards.

You haven't really said how it destroys progression for you and on what level ypu consider an mmo to be an mmorpg. So I have to ask whats the point of your thread?

I wouldn't quit over it but I'm with him.

It kills progression because when you go back to old/starter areas you don't feel anymore powerful than when you started. Mobs are all the same level as you same gear level etc. It's the same problem in the stand alone single player games. Yu kill some bandits in fur right out of the gate. Come back there 15 levels later and they are wearing ebon armor. They should be still wearing fur, or maybe a step above, but they shouldn't be on the same level as my character.

Only Daggerfall and Oblivion worked that way. Morrowind had static levels and Skyrim level locks dungeons and caves the first time you enter them; ESO doesn't scale enemies at all, players get scaled to cp160, which means every cp above that is pure progression. (I didn't play Arena, so don't know how it worked there)

vyndral13preub18_ESO · September 2017

While I like the fact that you can play with anyone at anytime, I think the scaling is to strong and can actually make your character feel like it is getting weaker as you level.

Sure you get more skills but if you were wearing a halfway decent set of equipment as you level your stats go down and your regen goes Down. For example at around level 25 you could have around 25k health unbuffed and never ever ever run out of resources since you regen so fast. At level 50 in the same set of equipment properly leveled your hp is around 14-15k and you run out of resources quickly unless you actively try to regen.

Not only does that make me feel like I'm not progressing. It makes me feel like I am actively going backwards.

SanTii.92 · September 2017

kmontywrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Malacthulhu wrote: »

haven't really said how it destroys progression for you and on what level ypu consider an mmo to be an mmorpg. So I have to ask whats the point of your thread?

I explained why I posted above. If there is no power progression and everything scales to match where you're at, it's no longer an RPG system.

Yes there is, you get new skills and passives as you lvl up, and then there is the cp, end game only gear, and, most importantly, actual skill power progress. You just have no idea what you are talking about.

PlagueSD · September 2017

kmontywrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Just want to let you know that level scaling has made this game unplayable for me. I get that a lot of people like it, and that's a good thing. It just destroys any progression for me. It's no longer an RPG.

I wish I'd remembered that before buying back into the game (after leaving it during the trial). My fault. If the game ever reverts, I'll be back, as it's beautiful and compelling in all other regards.

I'm betting he secretly thinks Guild Wars 2 has more character progression than ESO...

Linaleah · September 2017

I'm sorry OP that level scaling doesn't work for you. I'm normally not a fan of it, but the way its done in ESO litteraly made the game for me. One Tamriel is the reason why its now my primary MMO. so I really hope that ZOS never ever changes it back to the old way. why? becasue the whole world is now open to me to explore as I wish. it actualy feels like Elder scrolls game.

but progression you ask? I still have to unlock and level up skill lines and individual skills. I still have to gather skill points. I still have to earn champion points. my characters DO noticeably get more powerful and more versatile the longer I play them. I'm just not locked away from exploring anymore.

funny story. i used to play GW2 a lot. and the fact that you were scaled down, but never up - drove me away from the game. that is until I cam back a year later, and anniversary gifts were level boosts.. which allowed my characters to be at top level for the zone I was in, without essentially being blocked away from exploring and enjoying myself. i wasn't stuck in a narrow area, until I leveled up - anymore. I still much prefer ESO version of scaling, because it allows me more freedom than GW2 without needing all those leveling boosts/books. but the idea is the same. level scaling when done well (and ESO does it well) - opens up the world, without hindering actual character progression. because as I said.. you still need to earn your skill points and level up your skills, in order to expand repertoire of your abilities.

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO · September 2017

I understand what the OP means but, and here it is, the PvE side of the House when it comes to overland monsters and such, other than world bosses, is pretty damn easy, especially when you are all 160 cp Eqpt out and are at like Epic (purple) or Legendary (gold) gear.

I can tear through normal PvE enemies like butter..

That's why we have Vet Dungeons, DLC dungeons, group areas (Craglorn) and Trials for PvE.

progression is done with level 1-50 and then using CP (Champion points) after getting to level 50.

STEVIL · September 2017

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

While I like the fact that you can play with anyone at anytime, I think the scaling is to strong and can actually make your character feel like it is getting weaker as you level.

Sure you get more skills but if you were wearing a halfway decent set of equipment as you level your stats go down and your regen goes Down. For example at around level 25 you could have around 25k health unbuffed and never ever ever run out of resources since you regen so fast. At level 50 in the same set of equipment properly leveled your hp is around 14-15k and you run out of resources quickly unless you actively try to regen.

Not only does that make me feel like I'm not progressing. It makes me feel like I am actively going backwards.

Icymi... This is exactly how it worked before scaling with the one exception of labelling.

Before scaling if you were @25 wearing @25 gear vs @25 enemies you were fine. If you were @50 wearing @25 gear vs @50 enemies you were worse off relatively speaking. While the labels said you had more hp and the labels said you were doing more damage, the increases you had by the labels did not keep up with the increases the enemies got.

So, had you run those same two cases then, would feel much same as now.

CHOOSING then to fight in armor 25 with weapons 25 lower would do exactly what it does now, only the labels "gains" belied the actual performance against enemies at your level.

Now, when you.see your performance going down your labels reflect that.

That is what has changed as far as your leveling char vs leveling armor example.

badmojo · September 2017

At level 10 you lack skills and passives.

kichwas · September 2017

Level scaling is why I'm here right now instead of over in WoW or something...

I love that you can play any of the content here in any manner you want, and it always stays as viable relevant content.

I love how full of other players everywhere I go is... this game might not have WoW's 6 million players of FFXIV's 10 million... but it feels like it has 3 times as many as both combined...

And that is all due to the scaling.

I strongly suspect there are more people who joined this game after One Tamriel and the scaling came about, than there are who left because of it.

badmojo wrote: »

At level 10 you lack skills and passives.

So far at level 12-14 across a series of characters I've managed to tank, heal, and DPS for several dungeons, even DLC dungeons. My first clear of blood forge was level 16 or 18 I think.

You might not have everything at that level, but if you're smart about it you have enough.

PurpleDrank · September 2017

I really like the scaling. I like that a wolf is a wolf no matter where you go and they aren't level 1 baby wolves in one area and level 50 mega-death-hounds in another. If anything I don't think they've gone far enough. I wish they'd ditch traditional levels completely. Have stacks of skill lines (more than we have now) that can be trained up and a limited number of points in game to choose skills (so that you have to make meaningful choices in developing your character).

zaria · September 2017

Zypheran wrote: »

I don't personally agree with the OP but for god sake, can a person not express a stance without being piled upon. OP doesn't like scaling and that's a valid stance to take. Its important that devs know how people like or dislike aspects of the game

True, however I see scaling as one of the: yes it stupid but it works, that make it not stupid.
Downside of scaling, it removes much of the progression feeling. You get weaker playing in the same area unless you upgrade your gear. Also you can not simply level up some levels to get stronger and then return to kill the enemy, this is also much of the reason overland is so easy.

However the upsides is, you can do zones in any order and do other stuff too. In the old system you would out level content just by doing all the content in an zone so you would not get xp from the last quests. Now add pvp and group dungeons.
Then add dlc zones who had to be scaled to max level it was here they started using scaling outside of cyrodil battle scaling.

Remember in WOW the only place with single player end game content was an small zone, smaller than Hews bane, that area was packed dolmen zerg style, in the leveling zones you could sometimes play a day without seeing other players.