One thing I would change about sorcs

Laquey · August 2017

I see a lot of nerf sorcs threads on here with a whole lot of back and forth for the most part, well almost completely, I think Sorcs are in a good place. High performing? Yes. OP, not really, I win against them well enough and get beaten by better players with better ping most of the time; that or cyrodil lag so it's much of a muchness however there is one thing I think would change sorc to be that better tuned for balance.

I think Crystal frags as it's stands with proc on magica is a little to strong when used on the defensive for sorcs.

Take my stam Warden for instance, I dodge, I take damage, heal up engage, use crystal shield to control the burst damage from frags with vigor and we go back and forth. What I find is frustrating that I can't counter play effectively is when I get heavy preassure on the sorc and put their shield down and get them to low health and proceed to execute with a 2H. The sorc shield stacks with resto shield / class ability or armour shield and has a really good chance of proccing a crystal frag at this point. To press the execute against them I have to start ani cancelling light 2H execute with roll dodge which can't be sustained forever so I can dodge the frag or I have to slide back into slabs counter and reset for burst while they can heal up with their resto shield and instantly change gears from defensive to burst wtih no real effort.

No other mag class, or class I've played can manage their damage, heal themselves and switch within a global to heavy burst as sorcs can due to frags proccing off of shields. I've played magblade, mag temp and mag warden and they all have to shield stack then start their chain of burst or control or evasion after that while relying on their shields to hold to keep them alive. This gives the opportunity of the person with dominance to switch gears themselves and encourages interplay and prediction and seems to hold true to other classes except sorcer with crystal frags. Burst needs to be timed and set up when you have control or you risk losing because the other player can put you out the back before you can execute your burst.

I think players should be rewarded with kills for timing burst in pvp and limiting the other players options, players should always be rewarded for controlling that burst damage and working through that bad situation switching gears and going on offence again. The sorcs I've fought for many minutes did this really well and didn't have to rely on frags shield proc to win because I took that oppertunity away from them but it only gives me 2-3 globals to press their shields before I have to manage stam and switch back to slabs simply because a sorc can instantly change gears on defence rather than having to set up preassure on a fully / near fully healed opponent.

The change I would make to sorcs would be to make crystal frags not proc of damage shields, right now I think this gives sorcs options other class specs don't really have to change a situation instantly and they have a really good toolkit as it is. I'm quite happy for a sorc which is already on the offensive, or risks defences, to proc an offensive frag; that's fine. I just don't think there's much counterplay to shield auto procs, at least in the pvp I've done.

Just some thoughts.

Derra · August 2017

Laquey wrote: »

No other mag class, or class I've played can manage their damage, heal themselves and switch within a global to heavy burst as sorcs can due to frags proccing off of shields. I've played magblade, mag temp and mag warden and they all have to shield stack then start their chain of burst or control or evasion after that while relying on their shields to hold to keep them alive. This gives the opportunity of the person with dominance to switch gears themselves and encourages interplay and prediction and seems to hold true to other classes except sorcer with crystal frags. Burst needs to be timed and set up when you have control or you risk losing because the other player can put you out the back before you can execute your burst.

I´m sorry but i´m playing magblade right now to get some distraction from sorc and magblade is just so so so much better at controlling situations and spontanuous burst.
Literally skoria + any dmg ability puts out more damage than frags. You get to choose if you want to pair it with a root, knockback, undodgeable healdebuff or assassins will (which also just counts up if you don´t forget to lightattack during shieldding).

Also most sorcs run either only one shield frontbar (which leaves two not proccing frags). No shield frontbar. Or if they really can procc frags on all shield casts give up a barspace to doublebar frags.
No sorc has 3 shields on the same bar as crystal fragments.
So either they don´t get fragproccs on (all) of their defense or they give up a full barslot for that. I think that´s fine.

Third point would be that fragments is at best a mediocre CC and on top of that the only CC sorcs get. Streak is nothing more than free cc immunity (breaking free gives you an extra .3 to .4s over waiting out the stun.
Fear/petrify will have better results if the desire is a defensive CC. Same as subassault. The only class being in a more awkward position than sorc in terms of available cc is templar atm.

Last but not least - a random frag procc should never kill you (just as a random incap or a random assassins will or whatever else should not kill someone). If things like that kill you you´ve got other things to fix than sorcs burst potential.

All in all a poor solution to a nonexistant problem.

I get that frags can be frustrating when procced every other CD - but that´s just random chances. You´ll just as often go without any procc for 10+s.
A solution would be to make frags work like assassins will:
Casting a magica ability grants you one stack of accelerated fragments increasing dmg of your next crystal fragments by 4%, decreasing casttime by 34% and reducing it´s cost by 17%. Stacks up to 3 times.

Now we have predictable burst without getting a too different endresult for fragments.

Laquey · August 2017

Derra wrote: »

I´m sorry but i´m playing magblade right now to get some distraction from sorc and magblade is just so so so much better at controlling situations and spontanuous burst.
Literally skoria + any dmg ability puts out more damage than frags. You get to choose if you want to pair it with a root, knockback, undodgeable healdebuff or assassins will (which also just counts up if you don´t forget to lightattack during shieldding).

But you don't controll skoria, can't be commanded at will after proc to link it with other burst and requires you to have DoTs running on your target which doesn't work if someone has taken initiative on your from stealth or removed your dots somehow. To take advantage of skoria you need to be in an offensive position with some control to exploit it, frags you can cast to CC your opponent in the middle of their offense and can also time it with a haunting curse proc + other burst to force your opponent to move instantly defensive while your shields heal you up.

Derra wrote: »

Last but not least - a random frag procc should never kill you (just as a random incap or a random assassins will or whatever else should not kill someone). If things like that kill you you´ve got other things to fix than sorcs burst potential.

Random frags don't kill me but that's not the topic of this conversation is it, the topic is how frags stop an opponent from pressing an offense for free while being defensive for the sorc.

Derra wrote: »

I get that frags can be frustrating when procced every other CD - but that´s just random chances. You´ll just as often go without any procc for 10+s.

35% chance on cast is a high chance and two or three shields have a good chance of netting you this on the defence.

Beardimus · August 2017

So basically another nerf Sorc thread, and despite Frag losing 10% last patch ...

Betsararie · August 2017

It's so funny that people can actually think this. It's so hilarious

It's THE MOST EASILY DODGED SKILL IN THE GAME.

If you really can't avoid frags, the problem does not lie with the skill, it lies with you or your playstyle

Derra · August 2017

Laquey wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

I´m sorry but i´m playing magblade right now to get some distraction from sorc and magblade is just so so so much better at controlling situations and spontanuous burst.
Literally skoria + any dmg ability puts out more damage than frags. You get to choose if you want to pair it with a root, knockback, undodgeable healdebuff or assassins will (which also just counts up if you don´t forget to lightattack during shieldding).

But you don't controll skoria, can't be commanded at will after proc to link it with other burst and requires you to have DoTs running on your target which doesn't work if someone has taken initiative on your from stealth or removed your dots somehow. To take advantage of skoria you need to be in an offensive position with some control to exploit it, frags you can cast to CC your opponent in the middle of their offense and can also time it with a haunting curse proc + other burst to force your opponent to move instantly defensive while your shields heal you up.

Derra wrote: »

Last but not least - a random frag procc should never kill you (just as a random incap or a random assassins will or whatever else should not kill someone). If things like that kill you you´ve got other things to fix than sorcs burst potential.

Random frags don't kill me but that's not the topic of this conversation is it, the topic is how frags stop an opponent from pressing an offense for free while being defensive for the sorc.

Derra wrote: »

I get that frags can be frustrating when procced every other CD - but that´s just random chances. You´ll just as often go without any procc for 10+s.

35% chance on cast is a high chance and two or three shields have a good chance of netting you this on the defence.

1:
If someone has initiative on you from stealth while you´re playing a NB something went horribly wrong. Assassins will still fits the same way frag does. Deals way more dmg and snares with minimally more rampup time - but reliable.
Time it with curse: That´s the crux. You´ve made a mistake if the sorc can time it with curse and hits you because that´s the only thing you should always avoid without being prepared. You can do it bc curse is heavily telegraphed. Also why are we aruging from a position where curse is magically applied and not removed but dots that might procc skoria are not applied or are removed? Something smells like biasfish here.
I don´t think you need any offensive position for skoria. The only class that reliably removes dots would be a templar and if they try that they don´t dmg you which automatically ends their offense.

2:
Any real cc does the job of stopping offense better than fragments. Fiery reach is better. Javeline is better. Fear is better. Petrify is better.
All come at the same opportunity cost as frags. They need 1 gcd and do not have to be procced first.

3:
As stated in my original post: Most sorc builds will only grant you the chance on one of two or three shields. If you get it on more than you have frags doublebarred which is a huge tradeoff or two shields on your frontbar which is an even bigger tradeoff.
The functionality you speak about literally requires you do slot the skill two times (and for that circumstance it´s completely fine).

I honestly don´t see much difference to any other CC + going offensive maneuver apart from curse burst in which case eating the frag is a total noob mistake and should get you in trouble.

MirkoZ · August 2017

Blanco wrote: »

It's so funny that people can actually think this. It's so hilarious

It's THE MOST EASILY DODGED SKILL IN THE GAME.

If you really can't avoid frags, the problem does not lie with the skill, it lies with you or your playstyle

Ahahahah exactly

ShadowMole25 · August 2017

Derra wrote: »

Laquey wrote: »

No other mag class, or class I've played can manage their damage, heal themselves and switch within a global to heavy burst as sorcs can due to frags proccing off of shields. I've played magblade, mag temp and mag warden and they all have to shield stack then start their chain of burst or control or evasion after that while relying on their shields to hold to keep them alive. This gives the opportunity of the person with dominance to switch gears themselves and encourages interplay and prediction and seems to hold true to other classes except sorcer with crystal frags. Burst needs to be timed and set up when you have control or you risk losing because the other player can put you out the back before you can execute your burst.

I´m sorry but i´m playing magblade right now to get some distraction from sorc and magblade is just so so so much better at controlling situations and spontanuous burst.
Literally skoria + any dmg ability puts out more damage than frags. You get to choose if you want to pair it with a root, knockback, undodgeable healdebuff or assassins will (which also just counts up if you don´t forget to lightattack during shieldding.

So you choose to compare a class skill to a gear set that anyone could wear? How is that a fair comparison? What if the sorcs OP was having trouble were also using skoria?

Emma_Overload · August 2017

The problem with OP's complaint is that it makes the assumption that Sorcs typically have Crystal Frags slotted on the same bar as our damage shields... we don't.

Rianai · August 2017

Frags is only easy to avoid (reactively) if cast from high range and without a bunch of other skill effects clustering your screen. Which is often not the case in actual combat situations. Especially curse tends to block a good amount of your view and can basically make you blind for what your opponent does. There definitely exist skills that are a lot! easier to avoid than a procced frags. (That being said, i don't think, frag needs any nerfs).

And please don't treat gear procs the same as class skills. Just because something like Skoria synergizes better with some other classes than magsorc, it is still not a class ability and therefore more relevant for gear balance than class balance. Saying magblade has better burst because of skoria is kinda like saying magsorc has better access to Minor Maim and then talking about Shadowrend or Wizard's Riposte.

Solariken · August 2017

Blanco wrote: »

It's so funny that people can actually think this. It's so hilarious

It's THE MOST EASILY DODGED SKILL IN THE GAME.

If you really can't avoid frags, the problem does not lie with the skill, it lies with you or your playstyle

Haha, nope. Not even close. It's not dodgeable at all in melee range unless like the OP you start preemptively rolling when you know it's primed.

To the OP, I don't mind that frag proc on shield casts, the only thing I take issue with is the size of Healing Ward. That shield is very OP 1v1.

Derra · August 2017

ShadowMole25 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Laquey wrote: »

No other mag class, or class I've played can manage their damage, heal themselves and switch within a global to heavy burst as sorcs can due to frags proccing off of shields. I've played magblade, mag temp and mag warden and they all have to shield stack then start their chain of burst or control or evasion after that while relying on their shields to hold to keep them alive. This gives the opportunity of the person with dominance to switch gears themselves and encourages interplay and prediction and seems to hold true to other classes except sorcer with crystal frags. Burst needs to be timed and set up when you have control or you risk losing because the other player can put you out the back before you can execute your burst.

I´m sorry but i´m playing magblade right now to get some distraction from sorc and magblade is just so so so much better at controlling situations and spontanuous burst.
Literally skoria + any dmg ability puts out more damage than frags. You get to choose if you want to pair it with a root, knockback, undodgeable healdebuff or assassins will (which also just counts up if you don´t forget to lightattack during shieldding.

So you choose to compare a class skill to a gear set that anyone could wear? How is that a fair comparison? What if the sorcs OP was having trouble were also using skoria?

barely any dots to use it with so why would you?

I also compared the class skill to other defensive CC functionalities and it gets outperformed by all of them (even if it´s only due to having no prerequisite).

Rianai · August 2017

Derra wrote: »

barely any dots to use it with so why would you?

Entropy, Destructive Reach, lightning and/or resto heavy attack, (Boundless Storm), Soul Assault or Dawnbreaker, poisons, burning (from enchant and other fire dmg), ...
Would it be really that terrible with skoria? (serious question, i don't play magsorc myself, but was already wondering, why i never see one with skoria)
I mean, magblade doesn't have that many class DoTs that are actually worth slotting aside from cripple (and maybe path, if people were actually kind enough to sit in it). I doubt that's gonna make or break the use of skoria.

TarrNokk · August 2017

Another pathetic whine thread. I suggest, you guys who complain about "op" classes, should play them by yourselves instead of voting for nerfs.

Joy_Division · August 2017

Crystal frags is the easiest sorc skills to counter. Less time on the forums asking for nerfs, more time pew pewing in cyrodiil and getting better please

ak_pvp · August 2017

W0t.

Frags is super counterable. Block, dodge, reflect etc. Hell, some even get miats to do the thinking for them.

You want to complain? Try shields, streaking through roots, or a penalty for interrupting dark deal/convert.

Don't ask for nerf on decent abilities or you *** up the class. Instead give counters to things without them.

Master_Kas · August 2017

Blanco wrote: »

It's so funny that people can actually think this. It's so hilarious

It's THE MOST EASILY DODGED SKILL IN THE GAME.

If you really can't avoid frags, the problem does not lie with the skill, it lies with you or your playstyle

Wrong. Dark flare is easier to dodge

I'm not hoping on the nerf-frags-crusade tough, it already got nerfed.

Joy_Division · August 2017

Master_Kas wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

It's so funny that people can actually think this. It's so hilarious

It's THE MOST EASILY DODGED SKILL IN THE GAME.

If you really can't avoid frags, the problem does not lie with the skill, it lies with you or your playstyle

Wrong. Dark flare is easier to dodge

I'm not hoping on the nerf-frags-crusade. Just sayin'.

Dark Flare is so slow that it often messes up the timing of those seeking to dodge it.

casparian · August 2017

Joy_Division wrote: »

Master_Kas wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

It's so funny that people can actually think this. It's so hilarious

It's THE MOST EASILY DODGED SKILL IN THE GAME.

If you really can't avoid frags, the problem does not lie with the skill, it lies with you or your playstyle

Wrong. Dark flare is easier to dodge

I'm not hoping on the nerf-frags-crusade. Just sayin'.

Dark Flare is so slow that it often messes up the timing of those seeking to dodge it.

It's so bad it's good

Dredlord · August 2017

Blanco wrote: »

It's so funny that people can actually think this. It's so hilarious

It's THE MOST EASILY DODGED SKILL IN THE GAME.

If you really can't avoid frags, the problem does not lie with the skill, it lies with you or your playstyle

NO, SORRY! THAT WOULD BE DARKFLARE...

k thx bye

Betsararie · August 2017

Dredlord wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

It's so funny that people can actually think this. It's so hilarious

It's THE MOST EASILY DODGED SKILL IN THE GAME.

If you really can't avoid frags, the problem does not lie with the skill, it lies with you or your playstyle

NO, SORRY! THAT WOULD BE DARKFLARE...

k thx bye

lol. you say that as if it's such a sure thing

I think it's completely situational.

Frags is just so slow moving, if it's a problem for you, you may want to look into improving your reflexes.

just a suggestion

Dredlord · August 2017

Blanco wrote: »

Dredlord wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

It's so funny that people can actually think this. It's so hilarious

It's THE MOST EASILY DODGED SKILL IN THE GAME.

If you really can't avoid frags, the problem does not lie with the skill, it lies with you or your playstyle

NO, SORRY! THAT WOULD BE DARKFLARE...

k thx bye

lol. you say that as if it's such a sure thing

I think it's completely situational.

No, its just a measurement and one is bigger.

davey1107 · August 2017

Another pathetic whine thread. I suggest, you guys who complain about "op" classes, should play them by yourselves instead of voting for nerfs.

I play all the classes. Stamblades need a nerf to surprise attack and proc sets. Magplars need a bit of a nerf to radiant destruct. Wardens need the darn bird changed in some way, but I'm not sure how, it's just irritating. DKs have some odd issues going on with talons, but I don't play mine enough to understand exactly what's happening and if it's an exploit, broken, or just an odd feature now.

And yes, I play my magsorc, and he needs nerfed because the ability to stack shields on heals on shields on heals while dishing out dps and maintaining resources for so long is problematic.

However, all of the classes can use buffs as well. I think mag sorcs should actually get a dps buff on some of their core class abilities, in exchange for less powerful shields and less resource return capabilities.

leepalmer95 · August 2017

How to counter frag as a warden.

See glowing hands.

Put up shield

Profit.