Dredlord wrote: »

Disregarding the fact it doesn't work anymore anyways, but it sounds like you just want to argue...

Disregarding the fact the resto ult wouldn't have worked on the overload bar, it was still a great spot for a more utility ulti.

It still works.

Resto ult also works on the overload bar. I´ve tested it shortly after the first comment about it no longer working was made a few days ago - and i´ve just tested it again 20s ago.

Waffennacht wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Break free cost, last I remember, is 4872. CC immunity is what 8 seconds?

You have 1100 Stam Regen? Cool every 8 secs you get 4400 Stam.

If you Only ever CC break (no block, no dodge roll, no conversion etc) you'll just barely (with CP) make enough to do so.

So that's how I run people outta Stam, esp with Siphoner passivr

cc break costs me 4200 stamina.

with potions (figuring in siphoning from you without siphoning its 1590 - 190 reduced rec from siphoning is probably too much) i get ~1400 stamina recovery putting me at ~42000 (+ 16k base) stamina to spend per minute.

assuming you manage to cc me every time on cooldown (cc break + 7s immunity) - which is very very very unlikely - you can drain me 31500 stamina per minute.

That means i have 10k stamina + base pool to work with with every second you don´t cc me on cooldown providing me an extra 700 stamina buffer.

I have never ran out of stam against a single player ever since patch 1.3. Never.

So you're accounting for using Pots, well first off, I'd definitely duel you until you run of pots to use lol.

And you're also saying you won't block or dodge roll.

That makes targeting an opponent behind you difficult yes? (Plus eliminates sorc mobility)

Of course you're gonna do well, you're an experienced player - my point remains.

If you and I went at it, either one of could win. You wouldn't simply win because of the shield stacking - or if by some chance I couldn't get through your wards, you won't get through my permablock. Seems balanced imo

Oh yeah it does seem balanced.

The thing is i´m arguing about every mechanic regularly resulting in 1v1 stalemates to be nerfed/altered.

That includes shields (which happens the topic i know most about bc i actually play the class that can stack them and i´ve made almost 90 million ap on it mainly solo and in groups no larger than 4).
But also: Restoult, sword and board ult, permablock, cloak and "counters", warden projectile absorb etc pp.

I´m pretty sure i couldn´t touch you on my sorc. It´s the design of the class being completely projectile based that allows wardens do completely shut down sorc offense by trading very favorable. Breaking a warden on sorc is harder than breaking another sorc.

But then again: I´m arguing about really easy mechanics that allow players to not die with minimal learning curve/skilldisplay. Pushing two buttons shouldn´t negate offense completely.
Being able to not die is bad for a pvp game (just as bad as untelegraphed instant deaths).

You forget i play on PC. Roots only impair movement on pc. You can target anyone behind you perfectly fine with mouselook. There is no requirement to ever break a root 1v1 unless you´re melee/get rooted in stupid. Only issue is it somewhat glitches CF animation but that´s workable.

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Killing shield stacking builds is the gateway to becoming a good pvp'er, they require you to monitor your resources, drain their resources, maintain pressure, and time burst.

Stacking hardened + harness (i morphed it just so i could make this point) costs me 6156 magica.
Harness returns 5895 magica.
You need 261 magica regeneration (that stat in your character sheet) to stack shields for infinite amounts of time against a magica build with these stats.
I think the lowest rec a maxlevel char can get is ~800.

This is on a build with 4 necro 5 amber 2x maxmagica (22k hp 48kmaxmag 16k stam 1.1k stamrec 1.8k magrec) putting you at ~48k. You can build to get up to around ~52k magica without sacrificing too much (hint: at that point stacking shields gains you magica).

It´s literally impossible to run a shieldstacker out of magica when using magica based attacks.

Show me the experienced pvp player that´s telling me shieldstacking isn´t overperforming with a face not looking like this:

Remember Sorcs use mag abilities too lol. You can counter their offense or their CC break. Constantly Purging Curse, Blocking or Dodging or reflecting frags will run any sorc dry. Along with these massive shields come a massive cost.

Once the resource heavy starts they are desperate. Then burst

Or

CC them every single chance. Also roots - believe it or not a heavy attack (to change where they are facing while rooted) really messed up burst and gives an opportunity to hard CC. Once Stam is low, CC burst GG

Also like the vast majority of the base doesn't know about heavy moving while rooted so they spend a ton of Stam dodge rolling

Are you trolling me?

I posted the stats i´m getting. How do you think you´ll run someone dry? Attacking their stampool with 1100 stamrec (without pot active mind you). Good luck with that.

I know you run a warden that can trolltank with the same potential a sorc can. That´s why stacking absorb + harness/dampen should be nerfed aswell.

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Killing shield stacking builds is the gateway to becoming a good pvp'er, they require you to monitor your resources, drain their resources, maintain pressure, and time burst.

Stacking hardened + harness (i morphed it just so i could make this point) costs me 6156 magica.
Harness returns 5895 magica.
You need 261 magica regeneration (that stat in your character sheet) to stack shields for infinite amounts of time against a magica build with these stats.
I think the lowest rec a maxlevel char can get is ~800.

This is on a build with 4 necro 5 amber 2x maxmagica (22k hp 48kmaxmag 16k stam 1.1k stamrec 1.8k magrec) putting you at ~48k. You can build to get up to around ~52k magica without sacrificing too much (hint: at that point stacking shields gains you magica).

It´s literally impossible to run a shieldstacker out of magica when using magica based attacks.

Show me the experienced pvp player that´s telling me shieldstacking isn´t overperforming with a face not looking like this:

Remember Sorcs use mag abilities too lol. You can counter their offense or their CC break. Constantly Purging Curse, Blocking or Dodging or reflecting frags will run any sorc dry. Along with these massive shields come a massive cost.

Once the resource heavy starts they are desperate. Then burst

Or

CC them every single chance. Also roots - believe it or not a heavy attack (to change where they are facing while rooted) really messed up burst and gives an opportunity to hard CC. Once Stam is low, CC burst GG

Also like the vast majority of the base doesn't know about heavy moving while rooted so they spend a ton of Stam dodge rolling

I literally can't believe anyone is arguing that a sustain build with very little damage shouldn't be able to turtle for prolonged periods of time(never mind that 3 people will wtfsmash your little shield stack no matter how good you sustain), if you build for sustain on any spec you can turtle forever, what is different?

Yeah that "sustain" build only gets a selfbuffed (no resource not procced not empowered) tooltip of 16500 for crystal fragments.

Ok, then battle spirit, armor mitigation, CP mitigation, block, damage debuffs, etc. what's that hitting for? 6k on a dodgeable, blockable, reflectable, ability. Crushing shock spam is literally harder to deal with 90% of the time

Idk what the meta is on PC EU, but the rest of us run defensive utility sets or take advantage of mechanics that allow the easy trashing of sorcs who aren't running significant damage. At that point you either turtle or die while hopelessly trying to kill an opponent with more damage and better defense than you. Skilled players are always going to perform and the ease of turtling on sorc allows you to wait out mistakes.

Clearly this thread is full of bads and as a good player, you're propping up their false opinions by arguing with logical, experienced players about this straw man you have constructed. Please just stop

Please point out to me where 24k of stacked shields with an effective cost of 261 magica (against a magica opponent) being unkillable for said magica opponent is a strawman argument?
What about this statement is wrong and what about it is a strawman?

How are you going to "trash" a sorc by running defensive utility. By also being unkillable? WOW YOU FINALLY GET TO THE POINT I`M ARGUING ABOUT - CONGRATS. I think being unkillable is idiotic.

Also what is that opponent with more dmg and better defense - i´m intrigued (CS gets a tt just short of 10k - idk what builds go that much higher especially when sustaining destrostaff without heavyattacks).

Edit: I´ve said it two times in this topic aswell. I only think of shieldstacking as problematic against players/builds that trigger harness. I don´t think sorc is op and i don´t think shields per se are op.
I have never met a player (especially since morrowind) that can put out ~11k noncrit dps on a magica build that is needed to break high magica shieldstacking.

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Killing shield stacking builds is the gateway to becoming a good pvp'er, they require you to monitor your resources, drain their resources, maintain pressure, and time burst.

Stacking hardened + harness (i morphed it just so i could make this point) costs me 6156 magica.
Harness returns 5895 magica.
You need 261 magica regeneration (that stat in your character sheet) to stack shields for infinite amounts of time against a magica build with these stats.
I think the lowest rec a maxlevel char can get is ~800.

This is on a build with 4 necro 5 amber 2x maxmagica (22k hp 48kmaxmag 16k stam 1.1k stamrec 1.8k magrec) putting you at ~48k. You can build to get up to around ~52k magica without sacrificing too much (hint: at that point stacking shields gains you magica).

It´s literally impossible to run a shieldstacker out of magica when using magica based attacks.

Show me the experienced pvp player that´s telling me shieldstacking isn´t overperforming with a face not looking like this:

Remember Sorcs use mag abilities too lol. You can counter their offense or their CC break. Constantly Purging Curse, Blocking or Dodging or reflecting frags will run any sorc dry. Along with these massive shields come a massive cost.

Once the resource heavy starts they are desperate. Then burst

Or

CC them every single chance. Also roots - believe it or not a heavy attack (to change where they are facing while rooted) really messed up burst and gives an opportunity to hard CC. Once Stam is low, CC burst GG

Also like the vast majority of the base doesn't know about heavy moving while rooted so they spend a ton of Stam dodge rolling

Are you trolling me?

I posted the stats i´m getting. How do you think you´ll run someone dry? Attacking their stampool with 1100 stamrec (without pot active mind you). Good luck with that.

I know you run a warden that can trolltank with the same potential a sorc can. That´s why stacking absorb + harness/dampen should be nerfed aswell.

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Killing shield stacking builds is the gateway to becoming a good pvp'er, they require you to monitor your resources, drain their resources, maintain pressure, and time burst.

Stacking hardened + harness (i morphed it just so i could make this point) costs me 6156 magica.
Harness returns 5895 magica.
You need 261 magica regeneration (that stat in your character sheet) to stack shields for infinite amounts of time against a magica build with these stats.
I think the lowest rec a maxlevel char can get is ~800.

This is on a build with 4 necro 5 amber 2x maxmagica (22k hp 48kmaxmag 16k stam 1.1k stamrec 1.8k magrec) putting you at ~48k. You can build to get up to around ~52k magica without sacrificing too much (hint: at that point stacking shields gains you magica).

It´s literally impossible to run a shieldstacker out of magica when using magica based attacks.

Show me the experienced pvp player that´s telling me shieldstacking isn´t overperforming with a face not looking like this:

Remember Sorcs use mag abilities too lol. You can counter their offense or their CC break. Constantly Purging Curse, Blocking or Dodging or reflecting frags will run any sorc dry. Along with these massive shields come a massive cost.

Once the resource heavy starts they are desperate. Then burst

Or

CC them every single chance. Also roots - believe it or not a heavy attack (to change where they are facing while rooted) really messed up burst and gives an opportunity to hard CC. Once Stam is low, CC burst GG

Also like the vast majority of the base doesn't know about heavy moving while rooted so they spend a ton of Stam dodge rolling

I literally can't believe anyone is arguing that a sustain build with very little damage shouldn't be able to turtle for prolonged periods of time(never mind that 3 people will wtfsmash your little shield stack no matter how good you sustain), if you build for sustain on any spec you can turtle forever, what is different?

Yeah that "sustain" build only gets a selfbuffed (no resource not procced not empowered) tooltip of 16500 for crystal fragments.

Ok, then battle spirit, armor mitigation, CP mitigation, block, damage debuffs, etc. what's that hitting for? 6k on a dodgeable, blockable, reflectable, ability. Crushing shock spam is literally harder to deal with 90% of the time

Idk what the meta is on PC EU, but the rest of us run defensive utility sets or take advantage of mechanics that allow the easy trashing of sorcs who aren't running significant damage. At that point you either turtle or die while hopelessly trying to kill an opponent with more damage and better defense than you. Skilled players are always going to perform and the ease of turtling on sorc allows you to wait out mistakes.

Clearly this thread is full of bads and as a good player, you're propping up their false opinions by arguing with logical, experienced players about this straw man you have constructed. Please just stop

Please point out to me where 24k of stacked shields with an effective cost of 261 magica (against a magica opponent) being unkillable for said magica opponent is a strawman argument?

How are you going to "trash" a sorc by running defensive utility. By also being unkillable? WOW YOU FINALLY GET TO THE POINT I`M ARGUING ABOUT - CONGRATS. I think being unkillable is idiotic.

Also what is that opponent with more dmg and better defense - i´m intrigued.

24k shield huh.

49400 outside of cyrodiil harness + hardened stacked with no healing ward.

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Killing shield stacking builds is the gateway to becoming a good pvp'er, they require you to monitor your resources, drain their resources, maintain pressure, and time burst.

Stacking hardened + harness (i morphed it just so i could make this point) costs me 6156 magica.
Harness returns 5895 magica.
You need 261 magica regeneration (that stat in your character sheet) to stack shields for infinite amounts of time against a magica build with these stats.
I think the lowest rec a maxlevel char can get is ~800.

This is on a build with 4 necro 5 amber 2x maxmagica (22k hp 48kmaxmag 16k stam 1.1k stamrec 1.8k magrec) putting you at ~48k. You can build to get up to around ~52k magica without sacrificing too much (hint: at that point stacking shields gains you magica).

It´s literally impossible to run a shieldstacker out of magica when using magica based attacks.

Show me the experienced pvp player that´s telling me shieldstacking isn´t overperforming with a face not looking like this:

Remember Sorcs use mag abilities too lol. You can counter their offense or their CC break. Constantly Purging Curse, Blocking or Dodging or reflecting frags will run any sorc dry. Along with these massive shields come a massive cost.

Once the resource heavy starts they are desperate. Then burst

Or

CC them every single chance. Also roots - believe it or not a heavy attack (to change where they are facing while rooted) really messed up burst and gives an opportunity to hard CC. Once Stam is low, CC burst GG

Also like the vast majority of the base doesn't know about heavy moving while rooted so they spend a ton of Stam dodge rolling

Are you trolling me?

I posted the stats i´m getting. How do you think you´ll run someone dry? Attacking their stampool with 1100 stamrec (without pot active mind you). Good luck with that.

I know you run a warden that can trolltank with the same potential a sorc can. That´s why stacking absorb + harness/dampen should be nerfed aswell.

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Killing shield stacking builds is the gateway to becoming a good pvp'er, they require you to monitor your resources, drain their resources, maintain pressure, and time burst.

Stacking hardened + harness (i morphed it just so i could make this point) costs me 6156 magica.
Harness returns 5895 magica.
You need 261 magica regeneration (that stat in your character sheet) to stack shields for infinite amounts of time against a magica build with these stats.
I think the lowest rec a maxlevel char can get is ~800.

This is on a build with 4 necro 5 amber 2x maxmagica (22k hp 48kmaxmag 16k stam 1.1k stamrec 1.8k magrec) putting you at ~48k. You can build to get up to around ~52k magica without sacrificing too much (hint: at that point stacking shields gains you magica).

It´s literally impossible to run a shieldstacker out of magica when using magica based attacks.

Show me the experienced pvp player that´s telling me shieldstacking isn´t overperforming with a face not looking like this:

Remember Sorcs use mag abilities too lol. You can counter their offense or their CC break. Constantly Purging Curse, Blocking or Dodging or reflecting frags will run any sorc dry. Along with these massive shields come a massive cost.

Once the resource heavy starts they are desperate. Then burst

Or

CC them every single chance. Also roots - believe it or not a heavy attack (to change where they are facing while rooted) really messed up burst and gives an opportunity to hard CC. Once Stam is low, CC burst GG

Also like the vast majority of the base doesn't know about heavy moving while rooted so they spend a ton of Stam dodge rolling

I literally can't believe anyone is arguing that a sustain build with very little damage shouldn't be able to turtle for prolonged periods of time(never mind that 3 people will wtfsmash your little shield stack no matter how good you sustain), if you build for sustain on any spec you can turtle forever, what is different?

Yeah that "sustain" build only gets a selfbuffed (no resource not procced not empowered) tooltip of 16500 for crystal fragments.

Ok, then battle spirit, armor mitigation, CP mitigation, block, damage debuffs, etc. what's that hitting for? 6k on a dodgeable, blockable, reflectable, ability. Crushing shock spam is literally harder to deal with 90% of the time

Idk what the meta is on PC EU, but the rest of us run defensive utility sets or take advantage of mechanics that allow the easy trashing of sorcs who aren't running significant damage. At that point you either turtle or die while hopelessly trying to kill an opponent with more damage and better defense than you. Skilled players are always going to perform and the ease of turtling on sorc allows you to wait out mistakes.

Clearly this thread is full of bads and as a good player, you're propping up their false opinions by arguing with logical, experienced players about this straw man you have constructed. Please just stop

Please point out to me where 24k of stacked shields with an effective cost of 261 magica (against a magica opponent) being unkillable for said magica opponent is a strawman argument?

How are you going to "trash" a sorc by running defensive utility. By also being unkillable? WOW YOU FINALLY GET TO THE POINT I`M ARGUING ABOUT - CONGRATS. I think being unkillable is idiotic.

Also what is that opponent with more dmg and better defense - i´m intrigued.

24k shield huh.

49400 outside of cyrodiil with no healing ward.

Must be running around with 50k~ magicka.

Sry hit the wrong number: 48400 harness + hard.

I posted the stats: 22.1k health 50.6k magica (reglyphed) 14.5k stam (~16 with 1p domi i don´t have) 1800 magrec 1100 stamrec.

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Killing shield stacking builds is the gateway to becoming a good pvp'er, they require you to monitor your resources, drain their resources, maintain pressure, and time burst.

Stacking hardened + harness (i morphed it just so i could make this point) costs me 6156 magica.
Harness returns 5895 magica.
You need 261 magica regeneration (that stat in your character sheet) to stack shields for infinite amounts of time against a magica build with these stats.
I think the lowest rec a maxlevel char can get is ~800.

This is on a build with 4 necro 5 amber 2x maxmagica (22k hp 48kmaxmag 16k stam 1.1k stamrec 1.8k magrec) putting you at ~48k. You can build to get up to around ~52k magica without sacrificing too much (hint: at that point stacking shields gains you magica).

It´s literally impossible to run a shieldstacker out of magica when using magica based attacks.

Show me the experienced pvp player that´s telling me shieldstacking isn´t overperforming with a face not looking like this:

Remember Sorcs use mag abilities too lol. You can counter their offense or their CC break. Constantly Purging Curse, Blocking or Dodging or reflecting frags will run any sorc dry. Along with these massive shields come a massive cost.

Once the resource heavy starts they are desperate. Then burst

Or

CC them every single chance. Also roots - believe it or not a heavy attack (to change where they are facing while rooted) really messed up burst and gives an opportunity to hard CC. Once Stam is low, CC burst GG

Also like the vast majority of the base doesn't know about heavy moving while rooted so they spend a ton of Stam dodge rolling

Are you trolling me?

I posted the stats i´m getting. How do you think you´ll run someone dry? Attacking their stampool with 1100 stamrec (without pot active mind you). Good luck with that.

I know you run a warden that can trolltank with the same potential a sorc can. That´s why stacking absorb + harness/dampen should be nerfed aswell.

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Killing shield stacking builds is the gateway to becoming a good pvp'er, they require you to monitor your resources, drain their resources, maintain pressure, and time burst.

Stacking hardened + harness (i morphed it just so i could make this point) costs me 6156 magica.
Harness returns 5895 magica.
You need 261 magica regeneration (that stat in your character sheet) to stack shields for infinite amounts of time against a magica build with these stats.
I think the lowest rec a maxlevel char can get is ~800.

This is on a build with 4 necro 5 amber 2x maxmagica (22k hp 48kmaxmag 16k stam 1.1k stamrec 1.8k magrec) putting you at ~48k. You can build to get up to around ~52k magica without sacrificing too much (hint: at that point stacking shields gains you magica).

It´s literally impossible to run a shieldstacker out of magica when using magica based attacks.

Show me the experienced pvp player that´s telling me shieldstacking isn´t overperforming with a face not looking like this:

Remember Sorcs use mag abilities too lol. You can counter their offense or their CC break. Constantly Purging Curse, Blocking or Dodging or reflecting frags will run any sorc dry. Along with these massive shields come a massive cost.

Once the resource heavy starts they are desperate. Then burst

Or

CC them every single chance. Also roots - believe it or not a heavy attack (to change where they are facing while rooted) really messed up burst and gives an opportunity to hard CC. Once Stam is low, CC burst GG

Also like the vast majority of the base doesn't know about heavy moving while rooted so they spend a ton of Stam dodge rolling

I literally can't believe anyone is arguing that a sustain build with very little damage shouldn't be able to turtle for prolonged periods of time(never mind that 3 people will wtfsmash your little shield stack no matter how good you sustain), if you build for sustain on any spec you can turtle forever, what is different?

Yeah that "sustain" build only gets a selfbuffed (no resource not procced not empowered) tooltip of 16500 for crystal fragments.

Ok, then battle spirit, armor mitigation, CP mitigation, block, damage debuffs, etc. what's that hitting for? 6k on a dodgeable, blockable, reflectable, ability. Crushing shock spam is literally harder to deal with 90% of the time

Idk what the meta is on PC EU, but the rest of us run defensive utility sets or take advantage of mechanics that allow the easy trashing of sorcs who aren't running significant damage. At that point you either turtle or die while hopelessly trying to kill an opponent with more damage and better defense than you. Skilled players are always going to perform and the ease of turtling on sorc allows you to wait out mistakes.

Clearly this thread is full of bads and as a good player, you're propping up their false opinions by arguing with logical, experienced players about this straw man you have constructed. Please just stop

Please point out to me where 24k of stacked shields with an effective cost of 261 magica (against a magica opponent) being unkillable for said magica opponent is a strawman argument?
What about this statement is wrong and what about it is a strawman?

How are you going to "trash" a sorc by running defensive utility. By also being unkillable? WOW YOU FINALLY GET TO THE POINT I`M ARGUING ABOUT - CONGRATS. I think being unkillable is idiotic.

Also what is that opponent with more dmg and better defense - i´m intrigued (CS gets a tt just short of 10k - idk what builds go that much higher especially when sustaining destrostaff without heavyattacks).

Edit: I´ve said it two times in this topic aswell. I only think of shieldstacking as problematic against players/builds that trigger harness. I don´t think sorc is op and i don´t think shields per se are op.
I have never met a player (especially since morrowind) that can put out ~11k noncrit dps on a magica build that is needed to break high magica shieldstacking.

This is a sorc is OP thread. It isn't a "people should not be able to turtle forever thread" choosing to focus on that logical fallacy is a joke.

Again, you're arguing about a mechanic that literally any magika spec can use and complaining about that in a sorc thread. That's a straw man and it's causing all these bads to latch onto your already flawed arguement. If you can't see that you've clearly buried your head in the sand. I'm done with this, have fun arguing your arguement about turtling and never running out of resources when the build you're talking about is one of the worst in the game at it.

Derra is backing his arguments up with math and examples. You offer bad jokes and no valid arguments. You have anything to back up your arguments? Or to actually counter his? If not your one of the bads

Waffennacht wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Killing shield stacking builds is the gateway to becoming a good pvp'er, they require you to monitor your resources, drain their resources, maintain pressure, and time burst.

Stacking hardened + harness (i morphed it just so i could make this point) costs me 6156 magica.
Harness returns 5895 magica.
You need 261 magica regeneration (that stat in your character sheet) to stack shields for infinite amounts of time against a magica build with these stats.
I think the lowest rec a maxlevel char can get is ~800.

This is on a build with 4 necro 5 amber 2x maxmagica (22k hp 48kmaxmag 16k stam 1.1k stamrec 1.8k magrec) putting you at ~48k. You can build to get up to around ~52k magica without sacrificing too much (hint: at that point stacking shields gains you magica).

It´s literally impossible to run a shieldstacker out of magica when using magica based attacks.

Show me the experienced pvp player that´s telling me shieldstacking isn´t overperforming with a face not looking like this:

Remember Sorcs use mag abilities too lol. You can counter their offense or their CC break. Constantly Purging Curse, Blocking or Dodging or reflecting frags will run any sorc dry. Along with these massive shields come a massive cost.

Once the resource heavy starts they are desperate. Then burst

Or

CC them every single chance. Also roots - believe it or not a heavy attack (to change where they are facing while rooted) really messed up burst and gives an opportunity to hard CC. Once Stam is low, CC burst GG

Also like the vast majority of the base doesn't know about heavy moving while rooted so they spend a ton of Stam dodge rolling

Are you trolling me?

I posted the stats i´m getting. How do you think you´ll run someone dry? Attacking their stampool with 1100 stamrec (without pot active mind you). Good luck with that.

I know you run a warden that can trolltank with the same potential a sorc can. That´s why stacking absorb + harness/dampen should be nerfed aswell.

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Killing shield stacking builds is the gateway to becoming a good pvp'er, they require you to monitor your resources, drain their resources, maintain pressure, and time burst.

Stacking hardened + harness (i morphed it just so i could make this point) costs me 6156 magica.
Harness returns 5895 magica.
You need 261 magica regeneration (that stat in your character sheet) to stack shields for infinite amounts of time against a magica build with these stats.
I think the lowest rec a maxlevel char can get is ~800.

This is on a build with 4 necro 5 amber 2x maxmagica (22k hp 48kmaxmag 16k stam 1.1k stamrec 1.8k magrec) putting you at ~48k. You can build to get up to around ~52k magica without sacrificing too much (hint: at that point stacking shields gains you magica).

It´s literally impossible to run a shieldstacker out of magica when using magica based attacks.

Show me the experienced pvp player that´s telling me shieldstacking isn´t overperforming with a face not looking like this:

Remember Sorcs use mag abilities too lol. You can counter their offense or their CC break. Constantly Purging Curse, Blocking or Dodging or reflecting frags will run any sorc dry. Along with these massive shields come a massive cost.

Once the resource heavy starts they are desperate. Then burst

Or

CC them every single chance. Also roots - believe it or not a heavy attack (to change where they are facing while rooted) really messed up burst and gives an opportunity to hard CC. Once Stam is low, CC burst GG

Also like the vast majority of the base doesn't know about heavy moving while rooted so they spend a ton of Stam dodge rolling

I literally can't believe anyone is arguing that a sustain build with very little damage shouldn't be able to turtle for prolonged periods of time(never mind that 3 people will wtfsmash your little shield stack no matter how good you sustain), if you build for sustain on any spec you can turtle forever, what is different?

Yeah that "sustain" build only gets a selfbuffed (no resource not procced not empowered) tooltip of 16500 for crystal fragments.

Ok, then battle spirit, armor mitigation, CP mitigation, block, damage debuffs, etc. what's that hitting for? 6k on a dodgeable, blockable, reflectable, ability. Crushing shock spam is literally harder to deal with 90% of the time

Idk what the meta is on PC EU, but the rest of us run defensive utility sets or take advantage of mechanics that allow the easy trashing of sorcs who aren't running significant damage. At that point you either turtle or die while hopelessly trying to kill an opponent with more damage and better defense than you. Skilled players are always going to perform and the ease of turtling on sorc allows you to wait out mistakes.

Clearly this thread is full of bads and as a good player, you're propping up their false opinions by arguing with logical, experienced players about this straw man you have constructed. Please just stop

Please point out to me where 24k of stacked shields with an effective cost of 261 magica (against a magica opponent) being unkillable for said magica opponent is a strawman argument?
What about this statement is wrong and what about it is a strawman?

How are you going to "trash" a sorc by running defensive utility. By also being unkillable? WOW YOU FINALLY GET TO THE POINT I`M ARGUING ABOUT - CONGRATS. I think being unkillable is idiotic.

Also what is that opponent with more dmg and better defense - i´m intrigued (CS gets a tt just short of 10k - idk what builds go that much higher especially when sustaining destrostaff without heavyattacks).

Edit: I´ve said it two times in this topic aswell. I only think of shieldstacking as problematic against players/builds that trigger harness. I don´t think sorc is op and i don´t think shields per se are op.
I have never met a player (especially since morrowind) that can put out ~11k noncrit dps on a magica build that is needed to break high magica shieldstacking.

This is a sorc is OP thread. It isn't a "people should not be able to turtle forever thread" choosing to focus on that logical fallacy is a joke.

Again, you're arguing about a mechanic that literally any magika spec can use and complaining about that in a sorc thread. That's a straw man and it's causing all these bads to latch onto your already flawed arguement. If you can't see that you've clearly buried your head in the sand. I'm done with this, have fun arguing your arguement about turtling and never running out of resources when the build you're talking about is one of the worst in the game at it.

Derra is backing his arguments up with math and examples. You offer bad jokes and no valid arguments. You have anything to back up your arguments? Or to actually counter his? If not your one of the bads

Lmfao, both @Lexxypwns and @Derra are really good. I wish I could just say, "Derra you're bad, therefore wrong" or "Lexxypwns you're good, you're right" but sadly not.

Quite frankly, I have been running into DKs and Wardens that make Sorcs look like they're made of Paper. Just for the sake of a chance to kill, I look forward to Sorcs.

I dunno wtf these new builds are running, but unless they over extend, they ain't dying

Him being a good player is not translating very well into a discussion about balancing a broken mechanic. He is demonstrating more feelings than actual counter arguments.

ShadowProc wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Killing shield stacking builds is the gateway to becoming a good pvp'er, they require you to monitor your resources, drain their resources, maintain pressure, and time burst.

Stacking hardened + harness (i morphed it just so i could make this point) costs me 6156 magica.
Harness returns 5895 magica.
You need 261 magica regeneration (that stat in your character sheet) to stack shields for infinite amounts of time against a magica build with these stats.
I think the lowest rec a maxlevel char can get is ~800.

This is on a build with 4 necro 5 amber 2x maxmagica (22k hp 48kmaxmag 16k stam 1.1k stamrec 1.8k magrec) putting you at ~48k. You can build to get up to around ~52k magica without sacrificing too much (hint: at that point stacking shields gains you magica).

It´s literally impossible to run a shieldstacker out of magica when using magica based attacks.

Show me the experienced pvp player that´s telling me shieldstacking isn´t overperforming with a face not looking like this:

Remember Sorcs use mag abilities too lol. You can counter their offense or their CC break. Constantly Purging Curse, Blocking or Dodging or reflecting frags will run any sorc dry. Along with these massive shields come a massive cost.

Once the resource heavy starts they are desperate. Then burst

Or

CC them every single chance. Also roots - believe it or not a heavy attack (to change where they are facing while rooted) really messed up burst and gives an opportunity to hard CC. Once Stam is low, CC burst GG

Also like the vast majority of the base doesn't know about heavy moving while rooted so they spend a ton of Stam dodge rolling

Are you trolling me?

I posted the stats i´m getting. How do you think you´ll run someone dry? Attacking their stampool with 1100 stamrec (without pot active mind you). Good luck with that.

I know you run a warden that can trolltank with the same potential a sorc can. That´s why stacking absorb + harness/dampen should be nerfed aswell.

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Killing shield stacking builds is the gateway to becoming a good pvp'er, they require you to monitor your resources, drain their resources, maintain pressure, and time burst.

Stacking hardened + harness (i morphed it just so i could make this point) costs me 6156 magica.
Harness returns 5895 magica.
You need 261 magica regeneration (that stat in your character sheet) to stack shields for infinite amounts of time against a magica build with these stats.
I think the lowest rec a maxlevel char can get is ~800.

This is on a build with 4 necro 5 amber 2x maxmagica (22k hp 48kmaxmag 16k stam 1.1k stamrec 1.8k magrec) putting you at ~48k. You can build to get up to around ~52k magica without sacrificing too much (hint: at that point stacking shields gains you magica).

It´s literally impossible to run a shieldstacker out of magica when using magica based attacks.

Show me the experienced pvp player that´s telling me shieldstacking isn´t overperforming with a face not looking like this:

Remember Sorcs use mag abilities too lol. You can counter their offense or their CC break. Constantly Purging Curse, Blocking or Dodging or reflecting frags will run any sorc dry. Along with these massive shields come a massive cost.

Once the resource heavy starts they are desperate. Then burst

Or

CC them every single chance. Also roots - believe it or not a heavy attack (to change where they are facing while rooted) really messed up burst and gives an opportunity to hard CC. Once Stam is low, CC burst GG

Also like the vast majority of the base doesn't know about heavy moving while rooted so they spend a ton of Stam dodge rolling

I literally can't believe anyone is arguing that a sustain build with very little damage shouldn't be able to turtle for prolonged periods of time(never mind that 3 people will wtfsmash your little shield stack no matter how good you sustain), if you build for sustain on any spec you can turtle forever, what is different?

Yeah that "sustain" build only gets a selfbuffed (no resource not procced not empowered) tooltip of 16500 for crystal fragments.

Ok, then battle spirit, armor mitigation, CP mitigation, block, damage debuffs, etc. what's that hitting for? 6k on a dodgeable, blockable, reflectable, ability. Crushing shock spam is literally harder to deal with 90% of the time

Idk what the meta is on PC EU, but the rest of us run defensive utility sets or take advantage of mechanics that allow the easy trashing of sorcs who aren't running significant damage. At that point you either turtle or die while hopelessly trying to kill an opponent with more damage and better defense than you. Skilled players are always going to perform and the ease of turtling on sorc allows you to wait out mistakes.

Clearly this thread is full of bads and as a good player, you're propping up their false opinions by arguing with logical, experienced players about this straw man you have constructed. Please just stop

Please point out to me where 24k of stacked shields with an effective cost of 261 magica (against a magica opponent) being unkillable for said magica opponent is a strawman argument?
What about this statement is wrong and what about it is a strawman?

How are you going to "trash" a sorc by running defensive utility. By also being unkillable? WOW YOU FINALLY GET TO THE POINT I`M ARGUING ABOUT - CONGRATS. I think being unkillable is idiotic.

Also what is that opponent with more dmg and better defense - i´m intrigued (CS gets a tt just short of 10k - idk what builds go that much higher especially when sustaining destrostaff without heavyattacks).

Edit: I´ve said it two times in this topic aswell. I only think of shieldstacking as problematic against players/builds that trigger harness. I don´t think sorc is op and i don´t think shields per se are op.
I have never met a player (especially since morrowind) that can put out ~11k noncrit dps on a magica build that is needed to break high magica shieldstacking.

This is a sorc is OP thread. It isn't a "people should not be able to turtle forever thread" choosing to focus on that logical fallacy is a joke.

Again, you're arguing about a mechanic that literally any magika spec can use and complaining about that in a sorc thread. That's a straw man and it's causing all these bads to latch onto your already flawed arguement. If you can't see that you've clearly buried your head in the sand. I'm done with this, have fun arguing your arguement about turtling and never running out of resources when the build you're talking about is one of the worst in the game at it.

Derra is backing his arguments up with math and examples. You offer bad jokes and no valid arguments. You have anything to back up your arguments? Or to actually counter his? If not your one of the bads

We'll ya but derra is arguing about turtling, which any class can do, in as nerf sorc thread. It somewhat implies only sorcs can do it which is not true. The longest duels are m sorc/nb v m sorc/nb (haven't dueled a good m warden yet) because they all use harness. Derra is correct in terms of hard facts but is skewing the data. Its kind of like proof by correlation. because a m sorc can be unkillable it is op because unkillable is op. But if all classes can be unkillabke than it's not op. Is being unkillable if you turtle op? Maybe. But that doesn't necessarily mean sorc is op. If it was an exam the data would be worth half marks. All the work is right but its relation to the conclusion isn't clearly defined.

Derra pointed out that he could indefinitely shield stack while still dishing out damage. That is not the same as turtling.
I still disagree that defense and offense should be tied to one stat. Change that or institute a major/minor shield design. Or no stacking outright.

"Indefinitely" is an ... Ambiguous word.

With or without Poisons?
With or without allies?
With or without potions?

If you have a 30% increased cost to mag abilities can you infinitely use shields? And even Derra pointed out, only against other mag builds. Are you saying because two magicka specific builds can't kill each other one must be nerfed in all engagements?

This discussion has been about rather specific scenerios in which both players have access to everything (potions, poisons, 1v1, magicka etc)

I still haven't been presented with facts that shields can be effective against everything, all the time

Dredlord wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Dredlord wrote: »

Disregarding the fact it doesn't work anymore anyways, but it sounds like you just want to argue...

Disregarding the fact the resto ult wouldn't have worked on the overload bar, it was still a great spot for a more utility ulti.

It still works.

Resto ult also works on the overload bar. I´ve tested it shortly after the first comment about it no longer working was made a few days ago - and i´ve just tested it again 20s ago.

How are you getting it to work, I have tried dragging it onto that bar and it flips out of overload and applies it to the normal bar. This worked in the past for me but I haven't played my Sorc in a while.

Just tested it again as well, not working for me.

Are you on console where you are a patch back atm?

Are you using an exploit to get it to work? if so shame on you...

I can´t post how i get it to work because that would be posting an exploit which is against the forum rules...

Lexxypwns wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Killing shield stacking builds is the gateway to becoming a good pvp'er, they require you to monitor your resources, drain their resources, maintain pressure, and time burst.

Stacking hardened + harness (i morphed it just so i could make this point) costs me 6156 magica.
Harness returns 5895 magica.
You need 261 magica regeneration (that stat in your character sheet) to stack shields for infinite amounts of time against a magica build with these stats.
I think the lowest rec a maxlevel char can get is ~800.

This is on a build with 4 necro 5 amber 2x maxmagica (22k hp 48kmaxmag 16k stam 1.1k stamrec 1.8k magrec) putting you at ~48k. You can build to get up to around ~52k magica without sacrificing too much (hint: at that point stacking shields gains you magica).

It´s literally impossible to run a shieldstacker out of magica when using magica based attacks.

Show me the experienced pvp player that´s telling me shieldstacking isn´t overperforming with a face not looking like this:

Remember Sorcs use mag abilities too lol. You can counter their offense or their CC break. Constantly Purging Curse, Blocking or Dodging or reflecting frags will run any sorc dry. Along with these massive shields come a massive cost.

Once the resource heavy starts they are desperate. Then burst

Or

CC them every single chance. Also roots - believe it or not a heavy attack (to change where they are facing while rooted) really messed up burst and gives an opportunity to hard CC. Once Stam is low, CC burst GG

Also like the vast majority of the base doesn't know about heavy moving while rooted so they spend a ton of Stam dodge rolling

Are you trolling me?

I posted the stats i´m getting. How do you think you´ll run someone dry? Attacking their stampool with 1100 stamrec (without pot active mind you). Good luck with that.

I know you run a warden that can trolltank with the same potential a sorc can. That´s why stacking absorb + harness/dampen should be nerfed aswell.

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Killing shield stacking builds is the gateway to becoming a good pvp'er, they require you to monitor your resources, drain their resources, maintain pressure, and time burst.

Stacking hardened + harness (i morphed it just so i could make this point) costs me 6156 magica.
Harness returns 5895 magica.
You need 261 magica regeneration (that stat in your character sheet) to stack shields for infinite amounts of time against a magica build with these stats.
I think the lowest rec a maxlevel char can get is ~800.

This is on a build with 4 necro 5 amber 2x maxmagica (22k hp 48kmaxmag 16k stam 1.1k stamrec 1.8k magrec) putting you at ~48k. You can build to get up to around ~52k magica without sacrificing too much (hint: at that point stacking shields gains you magica).

It´s literally impossible to run a shieldstacker out of magica when using magica based attacks.

Show me the experienced pvp player that´s telling me shieldstacking isn´t overperforming with a face not looking like this:

Remember Sorcs use mag abilities too lol. You can counter their offense or their CC break. Constantly Purging Curse, Blocking or Dodging or reflecting frags will run any sorc dry. Along with these massive shields come a massive cost.

Once the resource heavy starts they are desperate. Then burst

Or

CC them every single chance. Also roots - believe it or not a heavy attack (to change where they are facing while rooted) really messed up burst and gives an opportunity to hard CC. Once Stam is low, CC burst GG

Also like the vast majority of the base doesn't know about heavy moving while rooted so they spend a ton of Stam dodge rolling

I literally can't believe anyone is arguing that a sustain build with very little damage shouldn't be able to turtle for prolonged periods of time(never mind that 3 people will wtfsmash your little shield stack no matter how good you sustain), if you build for sustain on any spec you can turtle forever, what is different?

Yeah that "sustain" build only gets a selfbuffed (no resource not procced not empowered) tooltip of 16500 for crystal fragments.

Ok, then battle spirit, armor mitigation, CP mitigation, block, damage debuffs, etc. what's that hitting for? 6k on a dodgeable, blockable, reflectable, ability. Crushing shock spam is literally harder to deal with 90% of the time

Idk what the meta is on PC EU, but the rest of us run defensive utility sets or take advantage of mechanics that allow the easy trashing of sorcs who aren't running significant damage. At that point you either turtle or die while hopelessly trying to kill an opponent with more damage and better defense than you. Skilled players are always going to perform and the ease of turtling on sorc allows you to wait out mistakes.

Clearly this thread is full of bads and as a good player, you're propping up their false opinions by arguing with logical, experienced players about this straw man you have constructed. Please just stop

Please point out to me where 24k of stacked shields with an effective cost of 261 magica (against a magica opponent) being unkillable for said magica opponent is a strawman argument?
What about this statement is wrong and what about it is a strawman?

How are you going to "trash" a sorc by running defensive utility. By also being unkillable? WOW YOU FINALLY GET TO THE POINT I`M ARGUING ABOUT - CONGRATS. I think being unkillable is idiotic.

Also what is that opponent with more dmg and better defense - i´m intrigued (CS gets a tt just short of 10k - idk what builds go that much higher especially when sustaining destrostaff without heavyattacks).

Edit: I´ve said it two times in this topic aswell. I only think of shieldstacking as problematic against players/builds that trigger harness. I don´t think sorc is op and i don´t think shields per se are op.
I have never met a player (especially since morrowind) that can put out ~11k noncrit dps on a magica build that is needed to break high magica shieldstacking.

This is a sorc is OP thread. It isn't a "people should not be able to turtle forever thread" choosing to focus on that logical fallacy is a joke.

Again, you're arguing about a mechanic that literally any magika spec can use and complaining about that in a sorc thread. That's a straw man and it's causing all these bads to latch onto your already flawed arguement. If you can't see that you've clearly buried your head in the sand. I'm done with this, have fun arguing your arguement about turtling and never running out of resources when the build you're talking about is one of the worst in the game at it.

Derra is backing his arguments up with math and examples. You offer bad jokes and no valid arguments. You have anything to back up your arguments? Or to actually counter his? If not your one of the bads

Lmfao, both @Lexxypwns and @Derra are really good. I wish I could just say, "Derra you're bad, therefore wrong" or "Lexxypwns you're good, you're right" but sadly not.

Quite frankly, I have been running into DKs and Wardens that make Sorcs look like they're made of Paper. Just for the sake of a chance to kill, I look forward to Sorcs.

I dunno wtf these new builds are running, but unless they over extend, they ain't dying

Him being a good player is not translating very well into a discussion about balancing a broken mechanic. He is demonstrating more feelings than actual counter arguments.

The point is that this is a sorc op thread not a thread about the mechanics of harness magika, it's not even a sorc skill. Arguing that harness is overperforming, while mathematically supported, is irrelevant to this discussion.

I´m pretty convinced 80% of the "sorc OP" forum topics would end the instant shieldstacking becomes a thing of the past.

Also my only problem with harness at this point is that it´s not working according to ZOS own desired designgoals. They nerfed the living hell out of all % based sustain available in the game.
They kept harness a scaling resource return - it makes no sense and it´s overperforming with high resource pools.

The other 20% are probably related to streak (i´d love to see mobility brought back into the game btw).

Zendran wrote: »

Console wishes it had this add-on :'(