I've used sunderflame on a stam tank to very good results, just throw in that 1 heavy attack inbetween taunts, works wonders.

If you had more than 2 Stamina DDs, with one running Sunderflame + NMG the others could go without TFS. For example use Hunding and VO. But as I said for a Stamina DK having plenty of heavy attack in the rotation the uptime on Sunderflame would be close to 100%. For the other DD the DPS increase would be about 6.9%. Running it on tank would work but Alkosh would work better since it also benefits the magicka DDs.

Yes. Stamina sorcerers also have a heavy attack bonus damage from bound armaments.

Asardes wrote: »

...but Alkosh would work better since it also benefits the magicka DDs.

This is a sticking point misconception that I am so tired of seeing. And point for it -- I run tanks, a couple of stam DD, and a mag dd -- the tank and mag dd are my alternating mains.

Roar of Alkosh does virtually nothing for Mag dd.

mob resistance: 18.5k (overshooting it, I think it's actually 18.2, but going to use 18.5 for this. If the lower value is correct, it just furthers the point)

Light Armor passive: 4884
Sharpened Weapon: 2752
Lover Mundus: 4196 (7 divines traits)
Major Breach: 5280 Penetration
= 17, 112 Penetration.
CP Penetration (Spell Erosion 10): 1002
=18,114 penetration.

So, there is less than 400 resistance to over to be doing "True" damage (tooltip value before % bonus modifiers)

Crushing Enchatment: 1622 Armor and Spell resistance reduction --- Mag DPS are now overpenetrating by 1.2k

Where is the Roar of Alkosh giving any real benefit, since mag DD's are already hitting their primary target near 0 or beyond 0 resistance?

Even if you aren't using a sharpened weapon, and opt for precise or nirnhoned, that's only around 1.5k resist you are looking at needing to overcome -- and this is all assuming you put ONLY 10 points into Spell Erosion. Because of how the Mage tree is split up, it's actually very feasible to be able to get 35-60 points into spell erosion (3049-4435 penetration) with only a minimal % loss on magdps desirable traits.

Roar of Alkosh benefits: Stam DPS. Mag DPS who are running utility builds (not sharpened, no cp into penetration, not wearing 5 Light for some reason, not running Lover mundus (viable reasons abound)).

If you are a magdps and not running Lover, then you should have points spent into Spell Erosion to make the other stone perform higher.

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

@hedna123b14_ESO

In a raid group would it be a good idea to have some members use either NMG or sunder, maybe both, to increase the pen for the group?

Of course that is with a group and means each of those players needs another set (TFS) for when they aren't running the group buffs.

If you have a consistent trials group, there are already people doing this.

Tank Debuff+Crusher
Set bonuses, both independent and group
So NMG, Sunderflame, Alkosh (if available/group prefers it), Kraghs, Sharpened weapons or CP distributions to make up the difference, Power of the Light.

That's why I like being a templar tank: Power of the Light, Crusher, Sunderflame (jewelery, weapon, 1 armor) is pretty easy to run as a tank and open up slots for dps to use something better.

Even allows some dps to wear Alkosh, since I'll be in position to activate the synergy where the boss is without having to dodge out of the way (most of the time).

Love your tanks. If they do it right, you only have to overcome 10k resistance most times.

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

@hedna123b14_ESO

In a raid group would it be a good idea to have some members use either NMG or sunder, maybe both, to increase the pen for the group?

Of course that is with a group and means each of those players needs another set (TFS) for when they aren't running the group buffs.

We dont use TFS...
1 DK in Alkosh/Sunder
1 DK in Alkosh/Morag Tong
1 Stamplar in WM/Hundings
1 NB in WM/NMG
If we have a 5th stam in group, we either do a DK in Hundings/VO or a Stamsorc in Hundings/Automaton...we are always at pen cap

Vajrak wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

@hedna123b14_ESO

In a raid group would it be a good idea to have some members use either NMG or sunder, maybe both, to increase the pen for the group?

Of course that is with a group and means each of those players needs another set (TFS) for when they aren't running the group buffs.

If you have a consistent trials group, there are already people doing this.

Tank Debuff+Crusher
Set bonuses, both independent and group
So NMG, Sunderflame, Alkosh (if available/group prefers it), Kraghs, Sharpened weapons or CP distributions to make up the difference, Power of the Light.

That's why I like being a templar tank: Power of the Light, Crusher, Sunderflame (jewelery, weapon, 1 armor) is pretty easy to run as a tank and open up slots for dps to use something better.

Even allows some dps to wear Alkosh, since I'll be in position to activate the synergy where the boss is without having to dodge out of the way (most of the time).

Love your tanks. If they do it right, you only have to overcome 10k resistance most times.

No one should be wearing Kragh this patch, since Velidreth is simply the only good choice...beside it being good ST normally it still hits certain bosses multiple times (such as Manti)...
As for tanks if there are two tanks, one goes Tava/BS/Dragon so major force is renewed every 15 sec and the other doea alkosh/ebon...if a group can get alkosh to be 75%+ with just 1 tank and 1 dps, one dps can runanother set...

Vajrak wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Vajrak wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

...but Alkosh would work better since it also benefits the magicka DDs.

This is a sticking point misconception that I am so tired of seeing. And point for it -- I run tanks, a couple of stam DD, and a mag dd -- the tank and mag dd are my alternating mains.

Roar of Alkosh does virtually nothing for Mag dd.

mob resistance: 18.5k (overshooting it, I think it's actually 18.2, but going to use 18.5 for this. If the lower value is correct, it just furthers the point)

Light Armor passive: 4884
Sharpened Weapon: 2752
Lover Mundus: 4196 (7 divines traits)
Major Breach: 5280 Penetration
= 17, 112 Penetration.
CP Penetration (Spell Erosion 10): 1002
=18,114 penetration.

So, there is less than 400 resistance to over to be doing "True" damage (tooltip value before % bonus modifiers)

Crushing Enchatment: 1622 Armor and Spell resistance reduction --- Mag DPS are now overpenetrating by 1.2k

Where is the Roar of Alkosh giving any real benefit, since mag DD's are already hitting their primary target near 0 or beyond 0 resistance?

Even if you aren't using a sharpened weapon, and opt for precise or nirnhoned, that's only around 1.5k resist you are looking at needing to overcome -- and this is all assuming you put ONLY 10 points into Spell Erosion. Because of how the Mage tree is split up, it's actually very feasible to be able to get 35-60 points into spell erosion (3049-4435 penetration) with only a minimal % loss on magdps desirable traits.

Roar of Alkosh benefits: Stam DPS. Mag DPS who are running utility builds (not sharpened, no cp into penetration, not wearing 5 Light for some reason, not running Lover mundus (viable reasons abound)).

If you are a magdps and not running Lover, then you should have points spent into Spell Erosion to make the other stone perform higher.

Not quite right. In the current DLC you shouldbt be using sharp weapons so your pen is as follows:
1. Major Breach (90% uptime unless you are humping valarial, its never 100%) - 4752
2. Light Armor CP - 4884
3. Base - 100
4. Lover - 4194
5. PotL (75% uptime) - 960
6. Alkosh (75% uptime) - 2257
7. Infused Crusher - (70% uptime) - 1476
Total - 18,623
The cap is 18,200, so if you drop alkosh you will need around 1840 into spell erosion. The issue is, with 75 into thaum for off-balance, that leaces you with only 145 CP yo put into other stars. Which is not enough to hit the severe diminishing returns that you get after 50 points into a CP star. This means that you need all the points that you can get and thus absolutely DO need alkosh. Also those buff uptimes I listed are fairly optimistic...like you can probably get them in AA, but mechanics heavy trials such as HoF would be a lot harder to get uptimes on, especially with all the boss movement.

630 total cp -- 210 per star.
1840 for spell erosion =20 points (for 1900)
75 into spell erosion = 95 points spent. Leaving you with 115 to spend in the Mage.
Another 75 into Elemental Expert -- still leaves you 40 points available to put into other places.

The difference between the weapon traits varies, and I should have included that my view is slightly skewed since my magdps is a Templar -- so penetration ends up being pretty useful, while Master-At-Arms applies to almost nothing (almost every skill on my bar has a DoT component).

I also had forgotten about the base 100 in my initial calculation.

So going with your numbers:
Major Breach -- 100% uptime is actually very feasible, it takes one person running Elemental Susceptibility which has it's full 24s duration refreshed every time the person who applied it damages the mob. If you can't get one damage tick in every 24 seconds, that would present an even bigger issue in terms of completing the trial.

so 100+5280+Light Armor passive (4884)=10,264. 7936 resistance left to overcome for True damage.

Lover, the value I have is 4196, but since we have similar numbers, lets split the difference and say 4195. That makes 3741 left to overcome.

IF you are using sharpened weapons (the difference between the weapons are all within 2% of each other, and on a Templar at least, the sharpened has been putting up better overall numbers when combined with the extra 10% innate crit damage bonus) --leaves 989 left to overcome. Which PotL leaves only 29 resistance left, and Crusher overshoots the target value.

Alkosh can give you allowance on changing weapon trait if you can keep good uptime on it, but even without it, the resistance you have left to overcome is very minimal.

Belated disclaimer: This is from a Magplar perspective, where sharpened still tends towards top performer, though nirnhoned becomes a close second, because of how Sweeps and Burning Light function, and where Master-At-Arms isn't really requiring much of an investment to raise performance since majority of the damage (Sweeps, Blockade, Sunfire morphs, Radiant Destruction) are DoT/Mag boosted, not Direct-Damage boosted.

Edit for clarity purpose: I can't find the page now, but Asayre probably has it, where Sharpened is still the best, performing on top by about 1% of the other traits, so the gap is closer than it was prior, but still makes penetration builds entirely viable and useful vs boss and high-resist-cap mobs (Trial mobs in general if I remember right all run at 18.2)

1. Im on PC - 660 CP.
2. With your CP distribution I would lose so much damage I should just play an RP'er...you need points into MaA and Elfborn...
3. Major Breach uptime can be 100% with Ele drain, but the goal is for the tank to keep it up so healers can run other ***...but Ill give you this one...
4. Lover is 2750 times divines...7 divines = 7.5 x 7 =52.5% increase. 2750 x 1.525 = 4194....
5. A magplar should be running Infused/precise this patch on the dual wield bar...
6. The resistance you have to overcome is NOT minimal because you wont be getting as high uptimes on buffs as you claim...I should know... I run with groups that post scores that are second only to Hodor...I know what average uptimes are...
7. Sharpened is NOT the best and if you're gonna reference my friend (Asayre) at least quote him right...his analysis confirmed Infused as the BiS trait...

Please stop putting up nonsensical info...

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

@hedna123b14_ESO

In a raid group would it be a good idea to have some members use either NMG or sunder, maybe both, to increase the pen for the group?

Of course that is with a group and means each of those players needs another set (TFS) for when they aren't running the group buffs.

We dont use TFS...
1 DK in Alkosh/Sunder
1 DK in Alkosh/Morag Tong
1 Stamplar in WM/Hundings
1 NB in WM/NMG
If we have a 5th stam in group, we either do a DK in Hundings/VO or a Stamsorc in Hundings/Automaton...we are always at pen cap

Thx for the followup. Your information is always very thorough.

Anytime:)

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Vajrak wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Vajrak wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

...but Alkosh would work better since it also benefits the magicka DDs.

This is a sticking point misconception that I am so tired of seeing. And point for it -- I run tanks, a couple of stam DD, and a mag dd -- the tank and mag dd are my alternating mains.

Roar of Alkosh does virtually nothing for Mag dd.

mob resistance: 18.5k (overshooting it, I think it's actually 18.2, but going to use 18.5 for this. If the lower value is correct, it just furthers the point)

Light Armor passive: 4884
Sharpened Weapon: 2752
Lover Mundus: 4196 (7 divines traits)
Major Breach: 5280 Penetration
= 17, 112 Penetration.
CP Penetration (Spell Erosion 10): 1002
=18,114 penetration.

So, there is less than 400 resistance to over to be doing "True" damage (tooltip value before % bonus modifiers)

Crushing Enchatment: 1622 Armor and Spell resistance reduction --- Mag DPS are now overpenetrating by 1.2k

Where is the Roar of Alkosh giving any real benefit, since mag DD's are already hitting their primary target near 0 or beyond 0 resistance?

Even if you aren't using a sharpened weapon, and opt for precise or nirnhoned, that's only around 1.5k resist you are looking at needing to overcome -- and this is all assuming you put ONLY 10 points into Spell Erosion. Because of how the Mage tree is split up, it's actually very feasible to be able to get 35-60 points into spell erosion (3049-4435 penetration) with only a minimal % loss on magdps desirable traits.

Roar of Alkosh benefits: Stam DPS. Mag DPS who are running utility builds (not sharpened, no cp into penetration, not wearing 5 Light for some reason, not running Lover mundus (viable reasons abound)).

If you are a magdps and not running Lover, then you should have points spent into Spell Erosion to make the other stone perform higher.

Not quite right. In the current DLC you shouldbt be using sharp weapons so your pen is as follows:
1. Major Breach (90% uptime unless you are humping valarial, its never 100%) - 4752
2. Light Armor CP - 4884
3. Base - 100
4. Lover - 4194
5. PotL (75% uptime) - 960
6. Alkosh (75% uptime) - 2257
7. Infused Crusher - (70% uptime) - 1476
Total - 18,623
The cap is 18,200, so if you drop alkosh you will need around 1840 into spell erosion. The issue is, with 75 into thaum for off-balance, that leaces you with only 145 CP yo put into other stars. Which is not enough to hit the severe diminishing returns that you get after 50 points into a CP star. This means that you need all the points that you can get and thus absolutely DO need alkosh. Also those buff uptimes I listed are fairly optimistic...like you can probably get them in AA, but mechanics heavy trials such as HoF would be a lot harder to get uptimes on, especially with all the boss movement.

630 total cp -- 210 per star.
1840 for spell erosion =20 points (for 1900)
75 into spell erosion = 95 points spent. Leaving you with 115 to spend in the Mage.
Another 75 into Elemental Expert -- still leaves you 40 points available to put into other places.

The difference between the weapon traits varies, and I should have included that my view is slightly skewed since my magdps is a Templar -- so penetration ends up being pretty useful, while Master-At-Arms applies to almost nothing (almost every skill on my bar has a DoT component).

I also had forgotten about the base 100 in my initial calculation.

So going with your numbers:
Major Breach -- 100% uptime is actually very feasible, it takes one person running Elemental Susceptibility which has it's full 24s duration refreshed every time the person who applied it damages the mob. If you can't get one damage tick in every 24 seconds, that would present an even bigger issue in terms of completing the trial.

so 100+5280+Light Armor passive (4884)=10,264. 7936 resistance left to overcome for True damage.

Lover, the value I have is 4196, but since we have similar numbers, lets split the difference and say 4195. That makes 3741 left to overcome.

IF you are using sharpened weapons (the difference between the weapons are all within 2% of each other, and on a Templar at least, the sharpened has been putting up better overall numbers when combined with the extra 10% innate crit damage bonus) --leaves 989 left to overcome. Which PotL leaves only 29 resistance left, and Crusher overshoots the target value.

Alkosh can give you allowance on changing weapon trait if you can keep good uptime on it, but even without it, the resistance you have left to overcome is very minimal.

Belated disclaimer: This is from a Magplar perspective, where sharpened still tends towards top performer, though nirnhoned becomes a close second, because of how Sweeps and Burning Light function, and where Master-At-Arms isn't really requiring much of an investment to raise performance since majority of the damage (Sweeps, Blockade, Sunfire morphs, Radiant Destruction) are DoT/Mag boosted, not Direct-Damage boosted.

Edit for clarity purpose: I can't find the page now, but Asayre probably has it, where Sharpened is still the best, performing on top by about 1% of the other traits, so the gap is closer than it was prior, but still makes penetration builds entirely viable and useful vs boss and high-resist-cap mobs (Trial mobs in general if I remember right all run at 18.2)

1. Im on PC - 660 CP.
2. With your CP distribution I would lose so much damage I should just play an RP'er...you need points into MaA and Elfborn...
3. Major Breach uptime can be 100% with Ele drain, but the goal is for the tank to keep it up so healers can run other ***...but Ill give you this one...
4. Lover is 2750 times divines...7 divines = 7.5 x 7 =52.5% increase. 2750 x 1.525 = 4194....
5. A magplar should be running Infused/precise this patch on the dual wield bar...
6. The resistance you have to overcome is NOT minimal because you wont be getting as high uptimes on buffs as you claim...I should know... I run with groups that post scores that are second only to Hodor...I know what average uptimes are...
7. Sharpened is NOT the best and if you're gonna reference my friend (Asayre) at least quote him right...his analysis confirmed Infused as the BiS trait...

Please stop putting up nonsensical info...

1. I'm on PC also -- I didn't even factor for 660 CP, I did for a 630 CP build. 660 opens it up even further. Current vid-card issues have severely limited my play time, so I haven't been able to run anything more intensive than dungeons lately.

2. That was one potential CP distribution, which as your CP correction shows, allows for more points available to go into MaA and Elfborn. But MaA on a Magplar doesn't boost anything but the initial hit of Sun fire (morphs) or Spears/Shards, and does nothing for the spam skill (Sweeps) or the Execute (R. Destruction)

3. ANY mag DPS can just as easily put it up from the backbar, and for a templar to utilize it makes sense since need to have a destro skill on both bars to get the 8% damage boost on both bars.

4. Lover is 2752. Small difference, we're talking about a +/- 1, thus why I split the difference for the 5.

5. Magplar has a multitude of "BiS" builds both with and without DW. Most of the ones I run with, myself included, utilize Lightning Staff front, Fire staff back -- for the 8% boost to relevant skills and the extra damage from the weaving putting it ahead of DW.

6. I utilized your uptimes and numbers -- with only a 1 point change on the calculation for Lover with 7 divines. What groups you run with has nothing to do with the math you posted and that I utilized, and showing above as a sharpened weapon -- yes, I count sub 1k resistance as a minimal amount to overcome. PotL uptime you gave as 960, thus the 29 resistance, crusher as 1476 -- thus the overshooting/overpenetration.

7. The Asayre reference I can not find the specific thread, but you are more than welcome to post it. The last one I read was a comparison of Mundus stones specifically, and did determine Infused with Oblivion damage the BiS for the specific simulation of the following: Breton Sorcerer with 2 Ilambris, 4 Infallible Aether (including 1 weapon) and varied the 5 piece set.

Already stated above, my variance is skewed by the fact that I play a Magplar DPS (who gets minimal gains from Master at Arms), and is utilizing a 5/5/1 setup instead of a 5/4/2. His optimizer for Breton Sorc isn't going to give the same results.


And to confirm that, I just utilized the tool with the adjusted values for his tool for Mundus Trait and CP optimization:
Brief summary, with the following CP Distribution (Elemental Expert 75, Spell Erosion 41, Elfborn 21, Thaumathurge 81):
Apprentice Infused 160229
Lover Infused 159935
Mage Infused 156684
Shadow Infused 156678
Thief Infused 158764
Apprentice Nirnhoned 166326
Lover Nirnhoned 166472
Mage Nirnhoned 162781
Shadow Nirnhoned 163081
Thief Nirnhoned 165252
Apprentice Precise 166959
Lover Precise 167040 --- 3rd
Mage Precise 163265
Shadow Precise 164073
Thief Precise 165102
Apprentice Sharpened 168866 --- 1st
Lover Sharpened 161202
Mage Sharpened 165130
Shadow Sharpened 165196
Thief Sharpened 167877 --- 2nd

So what does this show?

Using Asayre's own optimization tool -- sharpened leads, with Lover/Precise combo coming in 3rd, and Lover Sharpened ahead of ALL infused combinations. But feel free to disagree with the math and formulas figured out by your friend.

Vajrak wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Vajrak wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Vajrak wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

...but Alkosh would work better since it also benefits the magicka DDs.

This is a sticking point misconception that I am so tired of seeing. And point for it -- I run tanks, a couple of stam DD, and a mag dd -- the tank and mag dd are my alternating mains.

Roar of Alkosh does virtually nothing for Mag dd.

mob resistance: 18.5k (overshooting it, I think it's actually 18.2, but going to use 18.5 for this. If the lower value is correct, it just furthers the point)

Light Armor passive: 4884
Sharpened Weapon: 2752
Lover Mundus: 4196 (7 divines traits)
Major Breach: 5280 Penetration
= 17, 112 Penetration.
CP Penetration (Spell Erosion 10): 1002
=18,114 penetration.

So, there is less than 400 resistance to over to be doing "True" damage (tooltip value before % bonus modifiers)

Crushing Enchatment: 1622 Armor and Spell resistance reduction --- Mag DPS are now overpenetrating by 1.2k

Where is the Roar of Alkosh giving any real benefit, since mag DD's are already hitting their primary target near 0 or beyond 0 resistance?

Even if you aren't using a sharpened weapon, and opt for precise or nirnhoned, that's only around 1.5k resist you are looking at needing to overcome -- and this is all assuming you put ONLY 10 points into Spell Erosion. Because of how the Mage tree is split up, it's actually very feasible to be able to get 35-60 points into spell erosion (3049-4435 penetration) with only a minimal % loss on magdps desirable traits.

Roar of Alkosh benefits: Stam DPS. Mag DPS who are running utility builds (not sharpened, no cp into penetration, not wearing 5 Light for some reason, not running Lover mundus (viable reasons abound)).

If you are a magdps and not running Lover, then you should have points spent into Spell Erosion to make the other stone perform higher.

Not quite right. In the current DLC you shouldbt be using sharp weapons so your pen is as follows:
1. Major Breach (90% uptime unless you are humping valarial, its never 100%) - 4752
2. Light Armor CP - 4884
3. Base - 100
4. Lover - 4194
5. PotL (75% uptime) - 960
6. Alkosh (75% uptime) - 2257
7. Infused Crusher - (70% uptime) - 1476
Total - 18,623
The cap is 18,200, so if you drop alkosh you will need around 1840 into spell erosion. The issue is, with 75 into thaum for off-balance, that leaces you with only 145 CP yo put into other stars. Which is not enough to hit the severe diminishing returns that you get after 50 points into a CP star. This means that you need all the points that you can get and thus absolutely DO need alkosh. Also those buff uptimes I listed are fairly optimistic...like you can probably get them in AA, but mechanics heavy trials such as HoF would be a lot harder to get uptimes on, especially with all the boss movement.

630 total cp -- 210 per star.
1840 for spell erosion =20 points (for 1900)
75 into spell erosion = 95 points spent. Leaving you with 115 to spend in the Mage.
Another 75 into Elemental Expert -- still leaves you 40 points available to put into other places.

The difference between the weapon traits varies, and I should have included that my view is slightly skewed since my magdps is a Templar -- so penetration ends up being pretty useful, while Master-At-Arms applies to almost nothing (almost every skill on my bar has a DoT component).

I also had forgotten about the base 100 in my initial calculation.

So going with your numbers:
Major Breach -- 100% uptime is actually very feasible, it takes one person running Elemental Susceptibility which has it's full 24s duration refreshed every time the person who applied it damages the mob. If you can't get one damage tick in every 24 seconds, that would present an even bigger issue in terms of completing the trial.

so 100+5280+Light Armor passive (4884)=10,264. 7936 resistance left to overcome for True damage.

Lover, the value I have is 4196, but since we have similar numbers, lets split the difference and say 4195. That makes 3741 left to overcome.

IF you are using sharpened weapons (the difference between the weapons are all within 2% of each other, and on a Templar at least, the sharpened has been putting up better overall numbers when combined with the extra 10% innate crit damage bonus) --leaves 989 left to overcome. Which PotL leaves only 29 resistance left, and Crusher overshoots the target value.

Alkosh can give you allowance on changing weapon trait if you can keep good uptime on it, but even without it, the resistance you have left to overcome is very minimal.

Belated disclaimer: This is from a Magplar perspective, where sharpened still tends towards top performer, though nirnhoned becomes a close second, because of how Sweeps and Burning Light function, and where Master-At-Arms isn't really requiring much of an investment to raise performance since majority of the damage (Sweeps, Blockade, Sunfire morphs, Radiant Destruction) are DoT/Mag boosted, not Direct-Damage boosted.

Edit for clarity purpose: I can't find the page now, but Asayre probably has it, where Sharpened is still the best, performing on top by about 1% of the other traits, so the gap is closer than it was prior, but still makes penetration builds entirely viable and useful vs boss and high-resist-cap mobs (Trial mobs in general if I remember right all run at 18.2)

1. Im on PC - 660 CP.
2. With your CP distribution I would lose so much damage I should just play an RP'er...you need points into MaA and Elfborn...
3. Major Breach uptime can be 100% with Ele drain, but the goal is for the tank to keep it up so healers can run other ***...but Ill give you this one...
4. Lover is 2750 times divines...7 divines = 7.5 x 7 =52.5% increase. 2750 x 1.525 = 4194....
5. A magplar should be running Infused/precise this patch on the dual wield bar...
6. The resistance you have to overcome is NOT minimal because you wont be getting as high uptimes on buffs as you claim...I should know... I run with groups that post scores that are second only to Hodor...I know what average uptimes are...
7. Sharpened is NOT the best and if you're gonna reference my friend (Asayre) at least quote him right...his analysis confirmed Infused as the BiS trait...

Please stop putting up nonsensical info...

1. I'm on PC also -- I didn't even factor for 660 CP, I did for a 630 CP build. 660 opens it up even further. Current vid-card issues have severely limited my play time, so I haven't been able to run anything more intensive than dungeons lately.

2. That was one potential CP distribution, which as your CP correction shows, allows for more points available to go into MaA and Elfborn. But MaA on a Magplar doesn't boost anything but the initial hit of Sun fire (morphs) or Spears/Shards, and does nothing for the spam skill (Sweeps) or the Execute (R. Destruction)

3. ANY mag DPS can just as easily put it up from the backbar, and for a templar to utilize it makes sense since need to have a destro skill on both bars to get the 8% damage boost on both bars.

4. Lover is 2752. Small difference, we're talking about a +/- 1, thus why I split the difference for the 5.

5. Magplar has a multitude of "BiS" builds both with and without DW. Most of the ones I run with, myself included, utilize Lightning Staff front, Fire staff back -- for the 8% boost to relevant skills and the extra damage from the weaving putting it ahead of DW.

6. I utilized your uptimes and numbers -- with only a 1 point change on the calculation for Lover with 7 divines. What groups you run with has nothing to do with the math you posted and that I utilized, and showing above as a sharpened weapon -- yes, I count sub 1k resistance as a minimal amount to overcome. PotL uptime you gave as 960, thus the 29 resistance, crusher as 1476 -- thus the overshooting/overpenetration.

7. The Asayre reference I can not find the specific thread, but you are more than welcome to post it. The last one I read was a comparison of Mundus stones specifically, and did determine Infused with Oblivion damage the BiS for the specific simulation of the following: Breton Sorcerer with 2 Ilambris, 4 Infallible Aether (including 1 weapon) and varied the 5 piece set.

Already stated above, my variance is skewed by the fact that I play a Magplar DPS (who gets minimal gains from Master at Arms), and is utilizing a 5/5/1 setup instead of a 5/4/2. His optimizer for Breton Sorc isn't going to give the same results.


And to confirm that, I just utilized the tool with the adjusted values for his tool for Mundus Trait and CP optimization:
Brief summary, with the following CP Distribution (Elemental Expert 75, Spell Erosion 41, Elfborn 21, Thaumathurge 81):
Apprentice Infused 160229
Lover Infused 159935
Mage Infused 156684
Shadow Infused 156678
Thief Infused 158764
Apprentice Nirnhoned 166326
Lover Nirnhoned 166472
Mage Nirnhoned 162781
Shadow Nirnhoned 163081
Thief Nirnhoned 165252
Apprentice Precise 166959
Lover Precise 167040 --- 3rd
Mage Precise 163265
Shadow Precise 164073
Thief Precise 165102
Apprentice Sharpened 168866 --- 1st
Lover Sharpened 161202
Mage Sharpened 165130
Shadow Sharpened 165196
Thief Sharpened 167877 --- 2nd

So what does this show?

Using Asayre's own optimization tool -- sharpened leads, with Lover/Precise combo coming in 3rd, and Lover Sharpened ahead of ALL infused combinations. But feel free to disagree with the math and formulas figured out by your friend.

1. So you are giving advice and you dont even know that you have 630 CP?
2. Magplar utilizes Elfborn quite a bit...also you keep saying for magplars, but this thread is not about magplars its not even about alkosh...its about penetration, which every mag class needs to allocate points away from erosion into more meaningful stars....
3. Magdps dont run ele drain unless you are runnign a trial with a social guild.
4. Fair enough
5. It does not...please show me a staff parse thats better than a DW parse...ill wait...
6. You will need to overcome +/- 1.5k in the BEST possible scenario...however in difficult trials where tanks have to hold adds as well as boss and dps have to block, uptimes go down...Any guild calling itself top end is utilizing it in their makeup...
7. No one runs that setup anymore 5/5/1 is the new meta...clearly your information is outdated... Read the last 2 pages of his thread for updated info...

Vajrak wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Vajrak wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Vajrak wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Vajrak wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

...but Alkosh would work better since it also benefits the magicka DDs.

This is a sticking point misconception that I am so tired of seeing. And point for it -- I run tanks, a couple of stam DD, and a mag dd -- the tank and mag dd are my alternating mains.

Roar of Alkosh does virtually nothing for Mag dd.

mob resistance: 18.5k (overshooting it, I think it's actually 18.2, but going to use 18.5 for this. If the lower value is correct, it just furthers the point)

Light Armor passive: 4884
Sharpened Weapon: 2752
Lover Mundus: 4196 (7 divines traits)
Major Breach: 5280 Penetration
= 17, 112 Penetration.
CP Penetration (Spell Erosion 10): 1002
=18,114 penetration.

So, there is less than 400 resistance to over to be doing "True" damage (tooltip value before % bonus modifiers)

Crushing Enchatment: 1622 Armor and Spell resistance reduction --- Mag DPS are now overpenetrating by 1.2k

Where is the Roar of Alkosh giving any real benefit, since mag DD's are already hitting their primary target near 0 or beyond 0 resistance?

Even if you aren't using a sharpened weapon, and opt for precise or nirnhoned, that's only around 1.5k resist you are looking at needing to overcome -- and this is all assuming you put ONLY 10 points into Spell Erosion. Because of how the Mage tree is split up, it's actually very feasible to be able to get 35-60 points into spell erosion (3049-4435 penetration) with only a minimal % loss on magdps desirable traits.

Roar of Alkosh benefits: Stam DPS. Mag DPS who are running utility builds (not sharpened, no cp into penetration, not wearing 5 Light for some reason, not running Lover mundus (viable reasons abound)).

If you are a magdps and not running Lover, then you should have points spent into Spell Erosion to make the other stone perform higher.

Not quite right. In the current DLC you shouldbt be using sharp weapons so your pen is as follows:
1. Major Breach (90% uptime unless you are humping valarial, its never 100%) - 4752
2. Light Armor CP - 4884
3. Base - 100
4. Lover - 4194
5. PotL (75% uptime) - 960
6. Alkosh (75% uptime) - 2257
7. Infused Crusher - (70% uptime) - 1476
Total - 18,623
The cap is 18,200, so if you drop alkosh you will need around 1840 into spell erosion. The issue is, with 75 into thaum for off-balance, that leaces you with only 145 CP yo put into other stars. Which is not enough to hit the severe diminishing returns that you get after 50 points into a CP star. This means that you need all the points that you can get and thus absolutely DO need alkosh. Also those buff uptimes I listed are fairly optimistic...like you can probably get them in AA, but mechanics heavy trials such as HoF would be a lot harder to get uptimes on, especially with all the boss movement.

630 total cp -- 210 per star.
1840 for spell erosion =20 points (for 1900)
75 into spell erosion = 95 points spent. Leaving you with 115 to spend in the Mage.
Another 75 into Elemental Expert -- still leaves you 40 points available to put into other places.

The difference between the weapon traits varies, and I should have included that my view is slightly skewed since my magdps is a Templar -- so penetration ends up being pretty useful, while Master-At-Arms applies to almost nothing (almost every skill on my bar has a DoT component).

I also had forgotten about the base 100 in my initial calculation.

So going with your numbers:
Major Breach -- 100% uptime is actually very feasible, it takes one person running Elemental Susceptibility which has it's full 24s duration refreshed every time the person who applied it damages the mob. If you can't get one damage tick in every 24 seconds, that would present an even bigger issue in terms of completing the trial.

so 100+5280+Light Armor passive (4884)=10,264. 7936 resistance left to overcome for True damage.

Lover, the value I have is 4196, but since we have similar numbers, lets split the difference and say 4195. That makes 3741 left to overcome.

IF you are using sharpened weapons (the difference between the weapons are all within 2% of each other, and on a Templar at least, the sharpened has been putting up better overall numbers when combined with the extra 10% innate crit damage bonus) --leaves 989 left to overcome. Which PotL leaves only 29 resistance left, and Crusher overshoots the target value.

Alkosh can give you allowance on changing weapon trait if you can keep good uptime on it, but even without it, the resistance you have left to overcome is very minimal.

Belated disclaimer: This is from a Magplar perspective, where sharpened still tends towards top performer, though nirnhoned becomes a close second, because of how Sweeps and Burning Light function, and where Master-At-Arms isn't really requiring much of an investment to raise performance since majority of the damage (Sweeps, Blockade, Sunfire morphs, Radiant Destruction) are DoT/Mag boosted, not Direct-Damage boosted.

Edit for clarity purpose: I can't find the page now, but Asayre probably has it, where Sharpened is still the best, performing on top by about 1% of the other traits, so the gap is closer than it was prior, but still makes penetration builds entirely viable and useful vs boss and high-resist-cap mobs (Trial mobs in general if I remember right all run at 18.2)

1. Im on PC - 660 CP.
2. With your CP distribution I would lose so much damage I should just play an RP'er...you need points into MaA and Elfborn...
3. Major Breach uptime can be 100% with Ele drain, but the goal is for the tank to keep it up so healers can run other ***...but Ill give you this one...
4. Lover is 2750 times divines...7 divines = 7.5 x 7 =52.5% increase. 2750 x 1.525 = 4194....
5. A magplar should be running Infused/precise this patch on the dual wield bar...
6. The resistance you have to overcome is NOT minimal because you wont be getting as high uptimes on buffs as you claim...I should know... I run with groups that post scores that are second only to Hodor...I know what average uptimes are...
7. Sharpened is NOT the best and if you're gonna reference my friend (Asayre) at least quote him right...his analysis confirmed Infused as the BiS trait...

Please stop putting up nonsensical info...

1. I'm on PC also -- I didn't even factor for 660 CP, I did for a 630 CP build. 660 opens it up even further. Current vid-card issues have severely limited my play time, so I haven't been able to run anything more intensive than dungeons lately.

2. That was one potential CP distribution, which as your CP correction shows, allows for more points available to go into MaA and Elfborn. But MaA on a Magplar doesn't boost anything but the initial hit of Sun fire (morphs) or Spears/Shards, and does nothing for the spam skill (Sweeps) or the Execute (R. Destruction)

3. ANY mag DPS can just as easily put it up from the backbar, and for a templar to utilize it makes sense since need to have a destro skill on both bars to get the 8% damage boost on both bars.

4. Lover is 2752. Small difference, we're talking about a +/- 1, thus why I split the difference for the 5.

5. Magplar has a multitude of "BiS" builds both with and without DW. Most of the ones I run with, myself included, utilize Lightning Staff front, Fire staff back -- for the 8% boost to relevant skills and the extra damage from the weaving putting it ahead of DW.

6. I utilized your uptimes and numbers -- with only a 1 point change on the calculation for Lover with 7 divines. What groups you run with has nothing to do with the math you posted and that I utilized, and showing above as a sharpened weapon -- yes, I count sub 1k resistance as a minimal amount to overcome. PotL uptime you gave as 960, thus the 29 resistance, crusher as 1476 -- thus the overshooting/overpenetration.

7. The Asayre reference I can not find the specific thread, but you are more than welcome to post it. The last one I read was a comparison of Mundus stones specifically, and did determine Infused with Oblivion damage the BiS for the specific simulation of the following: Breton Sorcerer with 2 Ilambris, 4 Infallible Aether (including 1 weapon) and varied the 5 piece set.

Already stated above, my variance is skewed by the fact that I play a Magplar DPS (who gets minimal gains from Master at Arms), and is utilizing a 5/5/1 setup instead of a 5/4/2. His optimizer for Breton Sorc isn't going to give the same results.


And to confirm that, I just utilized the tool with the adjusted values for his tool for Mundus Trait and CP optimization:
Brief summary, with the following CP Distribution (Elemental Expert 75, Spell Erosion 41, Elfborn 21, Thaumathurge 81):
Apprentice Infused 160229
Lover Infused 159935
Mage Infused 156684
Shadow Infused 156678
Thief Infused 158764
Apprentice Nirnhoned 166326
Lover Nirnhoned 166472
Mage Nirnhoned 162781
Shadow Nirnhoned 163081
Thief Nirnhoned 165252
Apprentice Precise 166959
Lover Precise 167040 --- 3rd
Mage Precise 163265
Shadow Precise 164073
Thief Precise 165102
Apprentice Sharpened 168866 --- 1st
Lover Sharpened 161202
Mage Sharpened 165130
Shadow Sharpened 165196
Thief Sharpened 167877 --- 2nd

So what does this show?

Using Asayre's own optimization tool -- sharpened leads, with Lover/Precise combo coming in 3rd, and Lover Sharpened ahead of ALL infused combinations. But feel free to disagree with the math and formulas figured out by your friend.

1. So you are giving advice and you dont even know that you have 630 CP?
2. Magplar utilizes Elfborn quite a bit...also you keep saying for magplars, but this thread is not about magplars its not even about alkosh...its about penetration, which every mag class needs to allocate points away from erosion into more meaningful stars....
3. Magdps dont run ele drain unless you are runnign a trial with a social guild.
4. Fair enough
5. It does not...please show me a staff parse thats better than a DW parse...ill wait...
6. You will need to overcome +/- 1.5k in the BEST possible scenario...however in difficult trials where tanks have to hold adds as well as boss and dps have to block, uptimes go down...Any guild calling itself top end is utilizing it in their makeup...
7. No one runs that setup anymore 5/5/1 is the new meta...clearly your information is outdated... Read the last 2 pages of his thread for updated info...

1. Did the build with 630 -- look above where you said 660. I did no adjustments for a 660 CP (because I haven't checked if it went up, since I tend to not distribute all my red points on my dps....just been lazy about that one).

2. This side argument, which is off-topic, started because of the statement that Alkosh is good for Stam DPS (and it sure as hell is) but the information that it adds just as much for mag dps isn't true since mag dps doesn't often need the extra debuff it gives.

3. Mag DPS CAN utilize it -- so can healers, and look, all variants of shard currently have a DoT component which will continually renew it. Or did you not consider that?

4. Glad we agree on this point at least.

5. Going to be waiting a long time. I no longer save my parses, and not going to go hunting through others. I know someone (I don't remember who) did the math for it also, and the 8% bonus does a lot to put the staff ahead of the DW options, even with the extra set bonus, because of the average difference between light attack weaves (all mag stats apply to staff, while the same isn't true for dw weaving). While backbar for templar can make a difference for Radiant Oppression, the set I am utilizing (Destruction Mastery) gives a much better bonus to it overall even with a % modifier applying, and just lets me keep burning/fire DoTs up at the same time as lightning while using Radiant Beam of Holy-Jeebus-Kittens-That's-Bright. You can look at some of the numbers yourself though to draw a conclusion, or of course your own parses (check it on a dummy if you'd like) and compare the overall damage between the two and how much weaving contributes both % and pure damage wise. (If you have a templar and the gear to test it evenly).

6. I never said it wasn't being utilized, nor that it is a bad set. I simply said that it's benefit to magdps is overexaggerated/not needed. Aside from that, you can actually block cast PotL and several skills last I tried (~2 days ago).

7. I use a 5/5/1 setup. I've liked the 5/5/1 setup personally for a long time, just now it's lightning/fire instead of lightning/resto on my bars. 5/4/2 is the setup which Asayre utilized on his optimization build declaring Infused BiS. Stated in his own post, for what he ran the numbers for. Date of the original post: 7/15/17, here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/359916/mundus-trait-and-cp-optimisation-for-pve-damage-dealers/p1

So that's outdated since it's the setup/numbers that were run by your friend?

Ok man...you do you...I know that if you are in a good guild your leader will utilize Alkosh for the sake of both stam AND magicka because it benefits both and thus a no brainer in its necessity. Alkosh is worn by onyl tanks and stam DPS...issue with tanks wearing it is sometimes there are a lot better options for them such as ulti gen sets... If youthink that a lightning staff which gives an 8% bonus to some of your skills is better than a 5% bonus damage to all of your skills, plus 207 spell damage from dual wield plus the ability to proc two enchants, you do not really know how to play magplar well...Light attack on the templar are the reason why DW was the main weapon of choice for so long...there are not enough of them to warrant using a staff. All of this does not even account for the fact that you are losing a set piece... Destruction mastery is a garbage set...especially ona templar... The benefit to mag dps from alkosh in this patch is more significant than it ever was...especially if they want to consider running other munduses that arent lover...however even with love then benefits are huge... Finally you agreed that infused is the right trait...thank god you got some good information:)

Vajrak wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Vajrak wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Vajrak wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Vajrak wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Vajrak wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

...but Alkosh would work better since it also benefits the magicka DDs.

This is a sticking point misconception that I am so tired of seeing. And point for it -- I run tanks, a couple of stam DD, and a mag dd -- the tank and mag dd are my alternating mains.

Roar of Alkosh does virtually nothing for Mag dd.

mob resistance: 18.5k (overshooting it, I think it's actually 18.2, but going to use 18.5 for this. If the lower value is correct, it just furthers the point)

Light Armor passive: 4884
Sharpened Weapon: 2752
Lover Mundus: 4196 (7 divines traits)
Major Breach: 5280 Penetration
= 17, 112 Penetration.
CP Penetration (Spell Erosion 10): 1002
=18,114 penetration.

So, there is less than 400 resistance to over to be doing "True" damage (tooltip value before % bonus modifiers)

Crushing Enchatment: 1622 Armor and Spell resistance reduction --- Mag DPS are now overpenetrating by 1.2k

Where is the Roar of Alkosh giving any real benefit, since mag DD's are already hitting their primary target near 0 or beyond 0 resistance?

Even if you aren't using a sharpened weapon, and opt for precise or nirnhoned, that's only around 1.5k resist you are looking at needing to overcome -- and this is all assuming you put ONLY 10 points into Spell Erosion. Because of how the Mage tree is split up, it's actually very feasible to be able to get 35-60 points into spell erosion (3049-4435 penetration) with only a minimal % loss on magdps desirable traits.

Roar of Alkosh benefits: Stam DPS. Mag DPS who are running utility builds (not sharpened, no cp into penetration, not wearing 5 Light for some reason, not running Lover mundus (viable reasons abound)).

If you are a magdps and not running Lover, then you should have points spent into Spell Erosion to make the other stone perform higher.

Not quite right. In the current DLC you shouldbt be using sharp weapons so your pen is as follows:
1. Major Breach (90% uptime unless you are humping valarial, its never 100%) - 4752
2. Light Armor CP - 4884
3. Base - 100
4. Lover - 4194
5. PotL (75% uptime) - 960
6. Alkosh (75% uptime) - 2257
7. Infused Crusher - (70% uptime) - 1476
Total - 18,623
The cap is 18,200, so if you drop alkosh you will need around 1840 into spell erosion. The issue is, with 75 into thaum for off-balance, that leaces you with only 145 CP yo put into other stars. Which is not enough to hit the severe diminishing returns that you get after 50 points into a CP star. This means that you need all the points that you can get and thus absolutely DO need alkosh. Also those buff uptimes I listed are fairly optimistic...like you can probably get them in AA, but mechanics heavy trials such as HoF would be a lot harder to get uptimes on, especially with all the boss movement.

630 total cp -- 210 per star.
1840 for spell erosion =20 points (for 1900)
75 into spell erosion = 95 points spent. Leaving you with 115 to spend in the Mage.
Another 75 into Elemental Expert -- still leaves you 40 points available to put into other places.

The difference between the weapon traits varies, and I should have included that my view is slightly skewed since my magdps is a Templar -- so penetration ends up being pretty useful, while Master-At-Arms applies to almost nothing (almost every skill on my bar has a DoT component).

I also had forgotten about the base 100 in my initial calculation.

So going with your numbers:
Major Breach -- 100% uptime is actually very feasible, it takes one person running Elemental Susceptibility which has it's full 24s duration refreshed every time the person who applied it damages the mob. If you can't get one damage tick in every 24 seconds, that would present an even bigger issue in terms of completing the trial.

so 100+5280+Light Armor passive (4884)=10,264. 7936 resistance left to overcome for True damage.

Lover, the value I have is 4196, but since we have similar numbers, lets split the difference and say 4195. That makes 3741 left to overcome.

IF you are using sharpened weapons (the difference between the weapons are all within 2% of each other, and on a Templar at least, the sharpened has been putting up better overall numbers when combined with the extra 10% innate crit damage bonus) --leaves 989 left to overcome. Which PotL leaves only 29 resistance left, and Crusher overshoots the target value.

Alkosh can give you allowance on changing weapon trait if you can keep good uptime on it, but even without it, the resistance you have left to overcome is very minimal.

Belated disclaimer: This is from a Magplar perspective, where sharpened still tends towards top performer, though nirnhoned becomes a close second, because of how Sweeps and Burning Light function, and where Master-At-Arms isn't really requiring much of an investment to raise performance since majority of the damage (Sweeps, Blockade, Sunfire morphs, Radiant Destruction) are DoT/Mag boosted, not Direct-Damage boosted.

Edit for clarity purpose: I can't find the page now, but Asayre probably has it, where Sharpened is still the best, performing on top by about 1% of the other traits, so the gap is closer than it was prior, but still makes penetration builds entirely viable and useful vs boss and high-resist-cap mobs (Trial mobs in general if I remember right all run at 18.2)

1. Im on PC - 660 CP.
2. With your CP distribution I would lose so much damage I should just play an RP'er...you need points into MaA and Elfborn...
3. Major Breach uptime can be 100% with Ele drain, but the goal is for the tank to keep it up so healers can run other ***...but Ill give you this one...
4. Lover is 2750 times divines...7 divines = 7.5 x 7 =52.5% increase. 2750 x 1.525 = 4194....
5. A magplar should be running Infused/precise this patch on the dual wield bar...
6. The resistance you have to overcome is NOT minimal because you wont be getting as high uptimes on buffs as you claim...I should know... I run with groups that post scores that are second only to Hodor...I know what average uptimes are...
7. Sharpened is NOT the best and if you're gonna reference my friend (Asayre) at least quote him right...his analysis confirmed Infused as the BiS trait...

Please stop putting up nonsensical info...

1. I'm on PC also -- I didn't even factor for 660 CP, I did for a 630 CP build. 660 opens it up even further. Current vid-card issues have severely limited my play time, so I haven't been able to run anything more intensive than dungeons lately.

2. That was one potential CP distribution, which as your CP correction shows, allows for more points available to go into MaA and Elfborn. But MaA on a Magplar doesn't boost anything but the initial hit of Sun fire (morphs) or Spears/Shards, and does nothing for the spam skill (Sweeps) or the Execute (R. Destruction)

3. ANY mag DPS can just as easily put it up from the backbar, and for a templar to utilize it makes sense since need to have a destro skill on both bars to get the 8% damage boost on both bars.

4. Lover is 2752. Small difference, we're talking about a +/- 1, thus why I split the difference for the 5.

5. Magplar has a multitude of "BiS" builds both with and without DW. Most of the ones I run with, myself included, utilize Lightning Staff front, Fire staff back -- for the 8% boost to relevant skills and the extra damage from the weaving putting it ahead of DW.

6. I utilized your uptimes and numbers -- with only a 1 point change on the calculation for Lover with 7 divines. What groups you run with has nothing to do with the math you posted and that I utilized, and showing above as a sharpened weapon -- yes, I count sub 1k resistance as a minimal amount to overcome. PotL uptime you gave as 960, thus the 29 resistance, crusher as 1476 -- thus the overshooting/overpenetration.

7. The Asayre reference I can not find the specific thread, but you are more than welcome to post it. The last one I read was a comparison of Mundus stones specifically, and did determine Infused with Oblivion damage the BiS for the specific simulation of the following: Breton Sorcerer with 2 Ilambris, 4 Infallible Aether (including 1 weapon) and varied the 5 piece set.

Already stated above, my variance is skewed by the fact that I play a Magplar DPS (who gets minimal gains from Master at Arms), and is utilizing a 5/5/1 setup instead of a 5/4/2. His optimizer for Breton Sorc isn't going to give the same results.


And to confirm that, I just utilized the tool with the adjusted values for his tool for Mundus Trait and CP optimization:
Brief summary, with the following CP Distribution (Elemental Expert 75, Spell Erosion 41, Elfborn 21, Thaumathurge 81):
Apprentice Infused 160229
Lover Infused 159935
Mage Infused 156684
Shadow Infused 156678
Thief Infused 158764
Apprentice Nirnhoned 166326
Lover Nirnhoned 166472
Mage Nirnhoned 162781
Shadow Nirnhoned 163081
Thief Nirnhoned 165252
Apprentice Precise 166959
Lover Precise 167040 --- 3rd
Mage Precise 163265
Shadow Precise 164073
Thief Precise 165102
Apprentice Sharpened 168866 --- 1st
Lover Sharpened 161202
Mage Sharpened 165130
Shadow Sharpened 165196
Thief Sharpened 167877 --- 2nd

So what does this show?

Using Asayre's own optimization tool -- sharpened leads, with Lover/Precise combo coming in 3rd, and Lover Sharpened ahead of ALL infused combinations. But feel free to disagree with the math and formulas figured out by your friend.

1. So you are giving advice and you dont even know that you have 630 CP?
2. Magplar utilizes Elfborn quite a bit...also you keep saying for magplars, but this thread is not about magplars its not even about alkosh...its about penetration, which every mag class needs to allocate points away from erosion into more meaningful stars....
3. Magdps dont run ele drain unless you are runnign a trial with a social guild.
4. Fair enough
5. It does not...please show me a staff parse thats better than a DW parse...ill wait...
6. You will need to overcome +/- 1.5k in the BEST possible scenario...however in difficult trials where tanks have to hold adds as well as boss and dps have to block, uptimes go down...Any guild calling itself top end is utilizing it in their makeup...
7. No one runs that setup anymore 5/5/1 is the new meta...clearly your information is outdated... Read the last 2 pages of his thread for updated info...

1. Did the build with 630 -- look above where you said 660. I did no adjustments for a 660 CP (because I haven't checked if it went up, since I tend to not distribute all my red points on my dps....just been lazy about that one).

2. This side argument, which is off-topic, started because of the statement that Alkosh is good for Stam DPS (and it sure as hell is) but the information that it adds just as much for mag dps isn't true since mag dps doesn't often need the extra debuff it gives.

3. Mag DPS CAN utilize it -- so can healers, and look, all variants of shard currently have a DoT component which will continually renew it. Or did you not consider that?

4. Glad we agree on this point at least.

5. Going to be waiting a long time. I no longer save my parses, and not going to go hunting through others. I know someone (I don't remember who) did the math for it also, and the 8% bonus does a lot to put the staff ahead of the DW options, even with the extra set bonus, because of the average difference between light attack weaves (all mag stats apply to staff, while the same isn't true for dw weaving). While backbar for templar can make a difference for Radiant Oppression, the set I am utilizing (Destruction Mastery) gives a much better bonus to it overall even with a % modifier applying, and just lets me keep burning/fire DoTs up at the same time as lightning while using Radiant Beam of Holy-Jeebus-Kittens-That's-Bright. You can look at some of the numbers yourself though to draw a conclusion, or of course your own parses (check it on a dummy if you'd like) and compare the overall damage between the two and how much weaving contributes both % and pure damage wise. (If you have a templar and the gear to test it evenly).

6. I never said it wasn't being utilized, nor that it is a bad set. I simply said that it's benefit to magdps is overexaggerated/not needed. Aside from that, you can actually block cast PotL and several skills last I tried (~2 days ago).

7. I use a 5/5/1 setup. I've liked the 5/5/1 setup personally for a long time, just now it's lightning/fire instead of lightning/resto on my bars. 5/4/2 is the setup which Asayre utilized on his optimization build declaring Infused BiS. Stated in his own post, for what he ran the numbers for. Date of the original post: 7/15/17, here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/359916/mundus-trait-and-cp-optimisation-for-pve-damage-dealers/p1

So that's outdated since it's the setup/numbers that were run by your friend?

Ok man...you do you...I know that if you are in a good guild your leader will utilize Alkosh for the sake of both stam AND magicka because it benefits both and thus a no brainer in its necessity. Alkosh is worn by onyl tanks and stam DPS...issue with tanks wearing it is sometimes there are a lot better options for them such as ulti gen sets... If youthink that a lightning staff which gives an 8% bonus to some of your skills is better than a 5% bonus damage to all of your skills, plus 207 spell damage from dual wield plus the ability to proc two enchants, you do not really know how to play magplar well...Light attack on the templar are the reason why DW was the main weapon of choice for so long...there are not enough of them to warrant using a staff. All of this does not even account for the fact that you are losing a set piece... Destruction mastery is a garbage set...especially ona templar... The benefit to mag dps from alkosh in this patch is more significant than it ever was...especially if they want to consider running other munduses that arent lover...however even with love then benefits are huge... Finally you agreed that infused is the right trait...thank god you got some good information:)

chart above, optimizer, experience all show that infused isn't the right trait, and actually underperforms, by a lot. 160k vs 168k.

Agreed Alkosh is meant for wear by tanks and stam dps. Agreed it has a place in trials. These are all things we never disagreed on.

Light Attack was the main weapon on templar for a long time because for a LONG time: Staff gave no % bonus to damage (DW swords does), which made up more than what was lost on the light weaving. That's no longer the case.

Destruction Mastery max magicka bonus gives a healthy boost to Radiant Oppression, also keeps magicka at a better place when deciding to drop a few enchants for health bonuses.


edited for spelling error

Im not sure which numbers you ran but Infused on magicka builds is a the BiS straight... Staff weaves on a templar are a very small % of dps as compared to the other source of damage. Radiant Scales best with spell dmaage which dual wield gives a ton of via DW itself and via additional set bonuses gained....Destruction Mastery is not a good set...it has never been used for that reason..

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Vajrak wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Vajrak wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Vajrak wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Vajrak wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Vajrak wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

...but Alkosh would work better since it also benefits the magicka DDs.

This is a sticking point misconception that I am so tired of seeing. And point for it -- I run tanks, a couple of stam DD, and a mag dd -- the tank and mag dd are my alternating mains.

Roar of Alkosh does virtually nothing for Mag dd.

mob resistance: 18.5k (overshooting it, I think it's actually 18.2, but going to use 18.5 for this. If the lower value is correct, it just furthers the point)

Light Armor passive: 4884
Sharpened Weapon: 2752
Lover Mundus: 4196 (7 divines traits)
Major Breach: 5280 Penetration
= 17, 112 Penetration.
CP Penetration (Spell Erosion 10): 1002
=18,114 penetration.

So, there is less than 400 resistance to over to be doing "True" damage (tooltip value before % bonus modifiers)

Crushing Enchatment: 1622 Armor and Spell resistance reduction --- Mag DPS are now overpenetrating by 1.2k

Where is the Roar of Alkosh giving any real benefit, since mag DD's are already hitting their primary target near 0 or beyond 0 resistance?

Even if you aren't using a sharpened weapon, and opt for precise or nirnhoned, that's only around 1.5k resist you are looking at needing to overcome -- and this is all assuming you put ONLY 10 points into Spell Erosion. Because of how the Mage tree is split up, it's actually very feasible to be able to get 35-60 points into spell erosion (3049-4435 penetration) with only a minimal % loss on magdps desirable traits.

Roar of Alkosh benefits: Stam DPS. Mag DPS who are running utility builds (not sharpened, no cp into penetration, not wearing 5 Light for some reason, not running Lover mundus (viable reasons abound)).

If you are a magdps and not running Lover, then you should have points spent into Spell Erosion to make the other stone perform higher.

Not quite right. In the current DLC you shouldbt be using sharp weapons so your pen is as follows:
1. Major Breach (90% uptime unless you are humping valarial, its never 100%) - 4752
2. Light Armor CP - 4884
3. Base - 100
4. Lover - 4194
5. PotL (75% uptime) - 960
6. Alkosh (75% uptime) - 2257
7. Infused Crusher - (70% uptime) - 1476
Total - 18,623
The cap is 18,200, so if you drop alkosh you will need around 1840 into spell erosion. The issue is, with 75 into thaum for off-balance, that leaces you with only 145 CP yo put into other stars. Which is not enough to hit the severe diminishing returns that you get after 50 points into a CP star. This means that you need all the points that you can get and thus absolutely DO need alkosh. Also those buff uptimes I listed are fairly optimistic...like you can probably get them in AA, but mechanics heavy trials such as HoF would be a lot harder to get uptimes on, especially with all the boss movement.

630 total cp -- 210 per star.
1840 for spell erosion =20 points (for 1900)
75 into spell erosion = 95 points spent. Leaving you with 115 to spend in the Mage.
Another 75 into Elemental Expert -- still leaves you 40 points available to put into other places.

The difference between the weapon traits varies, and I should have included that my view is slightly skewed since my magdps is a Templar -- so penetration ends up being pretty useful, while Master-At-Arms applies to almost nothing (almost every skill on my bar has a DoT component).

I also had forgotten about the base 100 in my initial calculation.

So going with your numbers:
Major Breach -- 100% uptime is actually very feasible, it takes one person running Elemental Susceptibility which has it's full 24s duration refreshed every time the person who applied it damages the mob. If you can't get one damage tick in every 24 seconds, that would present an even bigger issue in terms of completing the trial.

so 100+5280+Light Armor passive (4884)=10,264. 7936 resistance left to overcome for True damage.

Lover, the value I have is 4196, but since we have similar numbers, lets split the difference and say 4195. That makes 3741 left to overcome.

IF you are using sharpened weapons (the difference between the weapons are all within 2% of each other, and on a Templar at least, the sharpened has been putting up better overall numbers when combined with the extra 10% innate crit damage bonus) --leaves 989 left to overcome. Which PotL leaves only 29 resistance left, and Crusher overshoots the target value.

Alkosh can give you allowance on changing weapon trait if you can keep good uptime on it, but even without it, the resistance you have left to overcome is very minimal.

Belated disclaimer: This is from a Magplar perspective, where sharpened still tends towards top performer, though nirnhoned becomes a close second, because of how Sweeps and Burning Light function, and where Master-At-Arms isn't really requiring much of an investment to raise performance since majority of the damage (Sweeps, Blockade, Sunfire morphs, Radiant Destruction) are DoT/Mag boosted, not Direct-Damage boosted.

Edit for clarity purpose: I can't find the page now, but Asayre probably has it, where Sharpened is still the best, performing on top by about 1% of the other traits, so the gap is closer than it was prior, but still makes penetration builds entirely viable and useful vs boss and high-resist-cap mobs (Trial mobs in general if I remember right all run at 18.2)

1. Im on PC - 660 CP.
2. With your CP distribution I would lose so much damage I should just play an RP'er...you need points into MaA and Elfborn...
3. Major Breach uptime can be 100% with Ele drain, but the goal is for the tank to keep it up so healers can run other ***...but Ill give you this one...
4. Lover is 2750 times divines...7 divines = 7.5 x 7 =52.5% increase. 2750 x 1.525 = 4194....
5. A magplar should be running Infused/precise this patch on the dual wield bar...
6. The resistance you have to overcome is NOT minimal because you wont be getting as high uptimes on buffs as you claim...I should know... I run with groups that post scores that are second only to Hodor...I know what average uptimes are...
7. Sharpened is NOT the best and if you're gonna reference my friend (Asayre) at least quote him right...his analysis confirmed Infused as the BiS trait...

Please stop putting up nonsensical info...

1. I'm on PC also -- I didn't even factor for 660 CP, I did for a 630 CP build. 660 opens it up even further. Current vid-card issues have severely limited my play time, so I haven't been able to run anything more intensive than dungeons lately.

2. That was one potential CP distribution, which as your CP correction shows, allows for more points available to go into MaA and Elfborn. But MaA on a Magplar doesn't boost anything but the initial hit of Sun fire (morphs) or Spears/Shards, and does nothing for the spam skill (Sweeps) or the Execute (R. Destruction)

3. ANY mag DPS can just as easily put it up from the backbar, and for a templar to utilize it makes sense since need to have a destro skill on both bars to get the 8% damage boost on both bars.

4. Lover is 2752. Small difference, we're talking about a +/- 1, thus why I split the difference for the 5.

5. Magplar has a multitude of "BiS" builds both with and without DW. Most of the ones I run with, myself included, utilize Lightning Staff front, Fire staff back -- for the 8% boost to relevant skills and the extra damage from the weaving putting it ahead of DW.

6. I utilized your uptimes and numbers -- with only a 1 point change on the calculation for Lover with 7 divines. What groups you run with has nothing to do with the math you posted and that I utilized, and showing above as a sharpened weapon -- yes, I count sub 1k resistance as a minimal amount to overcome. PotL uptime you gave as 960, thus the 29 resistance, crusher as 1476 -- thus the overshooting/overpenetration.

7. The Asayre reference I can not find the specific thread, but you are more than welcome to post it. The last one I read was a comparison of Mundus stones specifically, and did determine Infused with Oblivion damage the BiS for the specific simulation of the following: Breton Sorcerer with 2 Ilambris, 4 Infallible Aether (including 1 weapon) and varied the 5 piece set.

Already stated above, my variance is skewed by the fact that I play a Magplar DPS (who gets minimal gains from Master at Arms), and is utilizing a 5/5/1 setup instead of a 5/4/2. His optimizer for Breton Sorc isn't going to give the same results.


And to confirm that, I just utilized the tool with the adjusted values for his tool for Mundus Trait and CP optimization:
Brief summary, with the following CP Distribution (Elemental Expert 75, Spell Erosion 41, Elfborn 21, Thaumathurge 81):
Apprentice Infused 160229
Lover Infused 159935
Mage Infused 156684
Shadow Infused 156678
Thief Infused 158764
Apprentice Nirnhoned 166326
Lover Nirnhoned 166472
Mage Nirnhoned 162781
Shadow Nirnhoned 163081
Thief Nirnhoned 165252
Apprentice Precise 166959
Lover Precise 167040 --- 3rd
Mage Precise 163265
Shadow Precise 164073
Thief Precise 165102
Apprentice Sharpened 168866 --- 1st
Lover Sharpened 161202
Mage Sharpened 165130
Shadow Sharpened 165196
Thief Sharpened 167877 --- 2nd

So what does this show?

Using Asayre's own optimization tool -- sharpened leads, with Lover/Precise combo coming in 3rd, and Lover Sharpened ahead of ALL infused combinations. But feel free to disagree with the math and formulas figured out by your friend.

1. So you are giving advice and you dont even know that you have 630 CP?
2. Magplar utilizes Elfborn quite a bit...also you keep saying for magplars, but this thread is not about magplars its not even about alkosh...its about penetration, which every mag class needs to allocate points away from erosion into more meaningful stars....
3. Magdps dont run ele drain unless you are runnign a trial with a social guild.
4. Fair enough
5. It does not...please show me a staff parse thats better than a DW parse...ill wait...
6. You will need to overcome +/- 1.5k in the BEST possible scenario...however in difficult trials where tanks have to hold adds as well as boss and dps have to block, uptimes go down...Any guild calling itself top end is utilizing it in their makeup...
7. No one runs that setup anymore 5/5/1 is the new meta...clearly your information is outdated... Read the last 2 pages of his thread for updated info...

1. Did the build with 630 -- look above where you said 660. I did no adjustments for a 660 CP (because I haven't checked if it went up, since I tend to not distribute all my red points on my dps....just been lazy about that one).

2. This side argument, which is off-topic, started because of the statement that Alkosh is good for Stam DPS (and it sure as hell is) but the information that it adds just as much for mag dps isn't true since mag dps doesn't often need the extra debuff it gives.

3. Mag DPS CAN utilize it -- so can healers, and look, all variants of shard currently have a DoT component which will continually renew it. Or did you not consider that?

4. Glad we agree on this point at least.

5. Going to be waiting a long time. I no longer save my parses, and not going to go hunting through others. I know someone (I don't remember who) did the math for it also, and the 8% bonus does a lot to put the staff ahead of the DW options, even with the extra set bonus, because of the average difference between light attack weaves (all mag stats apply to staff, while the same isn't true for dw weaving). While backbar for templar can make a difference for Radiant Oppression, the set I am utilizing (Destruction Mastery) gives a much better bonus to it overall even with a % modifier applying, and just lets me keep burning/fire DoTs up at the same time as lightning while using Radiant Beam of Holy-Jeebus-Kittens-That's-Bright. You can look at some of the numbers yourself though to draw a conclusion, or of course your own parses (check it on a dummy if you'd like) and compare the overall damage between the two and how much weaving contributes both % and pure damage wise. (If you have a templar and the gear to test it evenly).

6. I never said it wasn't being utilized, nor that it is a bad set. I simply said that it's benefit to magdps is overexaggerated/not needed. Aside from that, you can actually block cast PotL and several skills last I tried (~2 days ago).

7. I use a 5/5/1 setup. I've liked the 5/5/1 setup personally for a long time, just now it's lightning/fire instead of lightning/resto on my bars. 5/4/2 is the setup which Asayre utilized on his optimization build declaring Infused BiS. Stated in his own post, for what he ran the numbers for. Date of the original post: 7/15/17, here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/359916/mundus-trait-and-cp-optimisation-for-pve-damage-dealers/p1

So that's outdated since it's the setup/numbers that were run by your friend?

Ok man...you do you...I know that if you are in a good guild your leader will utilize Alkosh for the sake of both stam AND magicka because it benefits both and thus a no brainer in its necessity. Alkosh is worn by onyl tanks and stam DPS...issue with tanks wearing it is sometimes there are a lot better options for them such as ulti gen sets... If youthink that a lightning staff which gives an 8% bonus to some of your skills is better than a 5% bonus damage to all of your skills, plus 207 spell damage from dual wield plus the ability to proc two enchants, you do not really know how to play magplar well...Light attack on the templar are the reason why DW was the main weapon of choice for so long...there are not enough of them to warrant using a staff. All of this does not even account for the fact that you are losing a set piece... Destruction mastery is a garbage set...especially ona templar... The benefit to mag dps from alkosh in this patch is more significant than it ever was...especially if they want to consider running other munduses that arent lover...however even with love then benefits are huge... Finally you agreed that infused is the right trait...thank god you got some good information:)

chart above, optimizer, experience all show that infused isn't the right trait, and actually underperforms, by a lot. 160k vs 168k.

Agreed Alkosh is meant for wear by tanks and stam dps. Agreed it has a place in trials. These are all things we never disagreed on.

Light Attack was the main weapon on templar for a long time because for a LONG time: Staff gave no % bonus to damage (DW swords does), which made up more than what was lost on the light weaving. That's no longer the case.

Destruction Mastery max magicka bonus gives a healthy boost to Radiant Oppression, also keeps magicka at a better place when deciding to drop a few enchants for health bonuses.


edited for spelling error

Im not sure which numbers you ran but Infused on magicka builds is a the BiS straight... Staff weaves on a templar are a very small % of dps as compared to the other source of damage. Radiant Scales best with spell dmaage which dual wield gives a ton of via DW itself and via additional set bonuses gained....Destruction Mastery is not a good set...it has never been used for that reason..

It's amazing how much DPS my enchantment accounts for with an infused weapon. It's around 8% of my total DPS. I have been using a staff, but I want to replace my old sharpened swords with infused ones and see how it performs compared to staves.

I have always used dual wield front bar for my Magplar, but have been trying out staves since the update. It's just a matter of gold to get the equipment I want to test, lol.

I am glad to see that their is some debate over staves and dual wield though, since to me the extra 5% damage to everything + ~200 SD, + 2 enchants + extra set bonus always seemed like a better deal than 8% damage to only AoE OR ST, and extra light attack damage.

Asardes wrote: »

Destruction Mastery is a good set for sorc, especially in PvP because it boosts the strength of the shields. Not much use beyond that, especially in PvE. As for mundus stones, apprentice/warrior are the strongest ATM especially if running a rotation where light and heavy attacks are an important source of damage (DK, Sorcerer). In a group there's no reason to run either lover mundus or more than a sharp weapon if DW; precise+infused is probably optimal for all DW builds). On staff or 2H melee/bow infused is best. So most penetration should come from debuffs such as major/minor fracture/breech, sunderflame, Alkosh, NMG, crusher.

Nirn or Precise bow*