Trying to determine item sets for Dunmer magsorc using lightning front bar/ fire back bar

BrightOblivion · August 2017

As the title says, I'm playing a Dunmer magsorc and planning on using a lightning staff frontbar with an inferno staff back bar, to take advantage of both the lightning staff's heavy attacks and the Dunmer's bonus to fire damage, avoid running into stuff that's resistant to the vast majority of my damage (I'm not sure how much of this there is, but it seems like a bad idea to put all my eggs in one basket), and possibly provide better damage/utility in scenarios where a damage dealer is already dropping blockade of shock/ thundrous rage on everything. However, I'm running into difficulty in deciding which item sets to run. The abilities I'm planning on using are:

Front bar- Shock Clench, Hardened Ward, Force Pulse, Inner Light, Bound Aegis. Ulti: Shooting Star
Back bar- Blockade of Fire, Liquid Lightning, Mage's Wrath (maybe), Haunting Curse, Bound Aegis. Ulti: Fiery Rage

So yeah, essentially the Mystic build, but with an inferno backbar for kill-it-with-fire fun. I'm thinking Julianos still looks like a really nice set this update (833 Spell Critical, 1096 Max Magicka, 833 Spell Critical, 299 Spell Damage, and the added bonus of being able to pick my armor's weight and appearance). Since I'm planning on a fire back bar, however, Netch becomes less appealing, as do the sets which just boost fire damage, though I'm not really sure what percentage of dps from either source would make those a good idea, as opposed to something else. Given the nerf to sharpened, Spinners might be a good idea, assuming I'm not in a group that's pushing pen cap. I'm also not sure, with the 10% nerf to Ilambris (fire/lightning procs, yay!), if I should/want to go with it and 4 pieces in another set (in addition to Julianos), or a 1 piece monster set and 5 pieces in another set.

Really, I'm interested in any suggestions people might have and the reasoning behind those suggestions, even if it's "Bright, even as a Dunmer, it's alright/better to go with dual shock (and thus Netch or maybe something else), because..."

Some caveats to the above:

- I have yet to set foot in even the normal versions of MA/DSA, so suggestions to use Maelstrom/Master staves, while potentially valid, may not be the most helpful
- Likewise, while I have completed the three Craglorn trials and Maw, I've only done so on normal. Thus, the current/relevant set piece bonuses would be the superior (blue) versions due to the jewelry. I've also yet to do Halls of Fabrication, even on normal. I'd like to, but want to get this sorted out first.
- Please don't suggest I reroll my magsorc as an Altmer because reasons. She's a Dunmer and will remain that way.

I think that's it. If people need more information to make suggestions, please let me know and I'll endeavor to provide it.

At present, my spell pen is 8,234 (3250 from Spell Erosion, 4884 from concentration, and 100 base), my spell crit is 41.9% (another reason Juli looks like a good idea), and my spell damage is 2103. All of these are with 2 piece purple ilambris, 5 piece purple necro (been running a pet build), and 3 piece purple willpower jewelry with 2 purple spell damage glyphs (506 additional spell damage from set bonus+the two glyphs).

Taleof2Cities · August 2017

Looks like you're on the right track ...

I run Spinner's with Necropotence on my Pet Sorc ... which has several vMA clears.

But you're right, Julianos is one of the best all-around sets ... with the added advantage that it's crafted so you can dial in the style you want.

Netch's Touch moved into the top tier this patch. However, the data over on the PTS forums suggests a full spec into lightning ... which your character doesn't want to do.

If you haven't read some of the threads in PTS, head over there at your leisure.

Saint314Louis1985 · August 2017

i have a dunmer magic sorc and can promise you that the fire dmg bonus does not help. you are far better off running double lightning staves (i believe its due to elemental blockade setting enemies off balance thus increasing dmg).

Sigtric · August 2017

Saint314Louis1985 wrote: »

i have a dunmer magic sorc and can promise you that the fire dmg bonus does not help. you are far better off running double lightning staves (i believe its due to elemental blockade setting enemies off balance thus increasing dmg).

I wouldn't say it doesn't help - it just depends on the skills used. However I agree that I would choose the lightning bar for Elemental Blockade over the firebar. Concussed enemies better than burning enemies.

Burning is just a little DOT, which helps, but the minor maim from concussed will do you better on the harder hitting enemies and any mDK's you might be grouped with will love all the off balanced it causes.

BrightOblivion · August 2017

@Taleof2Cities

I've been watching @dpencil1 's math thread as he's been going through and testing stuff. The main problem is that it's pre-live patch and ZOS basically threw their papers into the air and went "Whee!" between 3.1.4 and live. I'm really interested to see what he comes up with regarding the updated math for what's live, but it just hasn't happened yet.

I may still get a set of netch (I already have the purple jewelry, just working on getting divines gloves and shoes) and make a juli lightning staff to put on my back bar for those times where others aren't dropping lightning destro skills everywhere. It's just not what I prefer and I'm looking for a set that I can use when I'm using fire instead.

After you mentioned it, I briefly went "Hmm... Necro+Spinners seems really interesting on a pet build. Waaaaiiiit... Wouldn't that entail getting either necro or spinners staves? Ouch!" What traits are you running on those, if you don't mind me asking? Also, do pets benefit from Spinners' spell pen, or is that mostly for other damage sources' benefit?

Juli+Necro also seems interesting, once I get some necro jewelry.

@Saint314Louis1985 and @Sigtric

I don't disagree that the offbalance and maim are handy. However, if other sorcs/magicka users are already using blockade of shock, and already proccing offbalance (and it seems like they would be, given how much damage it does and how widely reccomended it is), wouldn't I just be refreshing it and losing some degree of group utility/damage as a result? I'm also still concerned about those times where the game goes "Oh, you're almost entirely doing lightning damage? Surprise! These enemies are resistant to shock. Sucks to suck!"

Sigtric · August 2017

BrightOblivion wrote: »

@Taleof2Cities

I've been watching @dpencil1 's math thread as he's been going through and testing stuff. The main problem is that it's pre-live patch and ZOS basically threw their papers into the air and went "Whee!" between 3.1.4 and live. I'm really interested to see what he comes up with regarding the updated math for what's live, but it just hasn't happened yet.

I may still get a set of netch (I already have the purple jewelry, just working on getting divines gloves and shoes) and make a juli lightning staff to put on my back bar for those times where others aren't dropping lightning destro skills everywhere. It's just not what I prefer and I'm looking for a set that I can use when I'm using fire instead.

After you mentioned it, I briefly went "Hmm... Necro+Spinners seems really interesting on a pet build. Waaaaiiiit... Wouldn't that entail getting either necro or spinners staves? Ouch!" What traits are you running on those, if you don't mind me asking? Also, do pets benefit from Spinners' spell pen, or is that mostly for other damage sources' benefit?

Juli+Necro also seems interesting, once I get some necro jewelry.

@Saint314Louis1985 and @Sigtric

I don't disagree that the offbalance and maim are handy. However, if other sorcs/magicka users are already using blockade of shock, and already proccing offbalance (and it seems like they would be, given how much damage it does and how widely reccomended it is), wouldn't I just be refreshing it and losing some degree of group utility/damage as a result? I'm also still concerned about those times where the game goes "Oh, you're almost entirely doing lightning damage? Surprise! These enemies are resistant to shock. Sucks to suck!"

Group composition definitely will lead to one choice being better than the other, but it's just going to depend who you're with and what you decide to do as a team. IMO be flexible so you can do both, but in general I'd lean on lit Elemental instead of Flame in this case.

dpencil1 · August 2017

@BrightOblivion
I am waiting a little bit for the ESO Build Editor to get all of the set bonuses fully updated, which will probably be done some time late next week. I'd also like to see if we get any response fron the dev team on potentially reverting the changes to Shadow and Thief/Precise to their 3.1.4 versions.

That being said, any of the sets that did not have crit bonuses on them were not effected by the change to LIVE, so Necro and Spinner's, and for the most part Netch and BSW remain the same as my initial calculations. The bigger hit was to Julianos and most of all to Mother's Sorrow. I just made a thread yesterday examining the difference in Mother's Sorrow's dps contribution between Pre-Hotr, 3.1.4, and LIVE. So check that out if you haven't seen it. It's in the General forum.

BrightOblivion · August 2017

@Sigtric

My problem is that Netch, whose 5 piece boosts only lightning damage, isn't all that flexible in those (perhaps rare) situations where mood or circumstance would make a lightning staff less valuable. So I'm still trying to figure out which set to use in place of Netch, so that I have it on hand if it's needed. I'm just having considerable difficulty figuring out a 5 piece set that would go well with Juli and not be super-dependent on one element (netch wouldn't help fire, sun wouldn't help liquid lightning). I considered Scathing Mage briefly, but then went "Huh. That either means blue jewelry (and a blue set bonus) or spending quite a bit of time in the vICP that you haven't beaten yet." I also pondered Burning Spellweave, but am unsure just how reliably I could proc it using mostly blockade of fire as my source of fire abilities (maybe not massively well?). Then there's Spinners (will need to check with trial tanks- where I'm most likely to need a fire staff because others are using lightning destro, I guess- to see how much pen they're providing), or something to fit some other need (something to up spell crit or spell damage? Necro could give more magicka, which means more spells and better shields, but apart from that doesn't scale really well into damage?)

The other option, which would be quick and easy, would be to get netch epaulets, use them plus gloves/boots as part of that 5 piece, and switch them and the monster helm out with two piece light Ilambris for that proc on lightning and fire damage, since most of the 2,3,4 bonuses of sets provide a lot of the same thing (some combo of +mag, +spell crit, +spell damage, or +mag recovery, with the odd +max health), and netch provides one dose each of crit, mag, and spell damage. I'm just not sure how good that setup combined with juli would be off the top of my head, particularly compared to alternatives. Might absolutely be something to consider, though.

Mostly, I'm wondering if someone's already done this figuring, or has a set they're fond of using if/when they switch to inferno back bar. It probably won't be my main setup (which, as someone who has a mental image of sorcs as a pet summoner or master of multiple elements, makes me a little sad), but I'd like to have decent gear when I'm using it.

@dpencil1

Just to clarify, I wasn't grumbling or going "He hasn't done this and needs to hurry up." The changes in between (though I guess they're not as extreme in the case of your project as I thought they were) have thrown people for a loop and we're all trying to adjust, which will take as much time as it takes. I just meant that, while I had been reading your stuff, I wasn't sure how much of it had changed.

I did go and read your math on MS, juli, and necro. I'm a little vague on the big picture summary/ what it all means/ how good they each are now part, though. Basically, in a vacuum, the 55->21 on spell crit was a reasonable change, but with precise not changing and shadow being nerfed, it took a hit? With necro, I'm still not sure what to think about that change. It's not a super-massive hit, but that also means that its utility and damage contribution went down where other sets' went up.

Additional: Thanks to the wonderful folks over at Lone Wolf Help, part of the OP became invalid and has been changed. Did my first nMoL run with them this evening, and even served as a runner. It was really super fun, and I got an infused moondancer jerkin and two pieces of blue moondancer jewelry (I know, not epic, but still makes me happy) in the process, as well as my first dro'mathra page. Yay!

dpencil1 · August 2017

@BrightOblivion
No worries. I didn't take it as impatiece, I just wanted to offer some clarification on where things are at on my end.

As a Dunmer Sorc playing in a group context where you can reasonably rely on others to provide Exploiter for you, yes I would agree that running a Fire destro on the back bar for Wall of Fire, and probably using Force Pulse/Crushing Shock spam on the front bar would be the best utilization of your racial passive. You'd still probably be better off with a Lightning front bar for the extra AOE damage boost and easy AOE heavy attack damage, rather than going double Fire.

The standard 5 Julianos, 4 Moondancer/IA, 2 Ilambris is probably the most straightforward choice. Another setup might get you a little more.dpsx but likely not enough to really make you stress about. Without any trials sets, Willpower is a good substitute, and just use random staves. Necro is going to give you more pet damage, so at this point I think it doesn't stand far enough below Julianos to be dropped for that on a specific pet build. Across the board, though, it does feel like a nerf. It's going to be much harder to hit 40k dps now, no matter what setup you go with.

Right now, I would just stick with a pretty classic setup until more theory crafting can be done, and any final changes that might get in post-launch of HotR are in.

BrightOblivion · August 2017

@dpencil1

I definitely planned on sticking with shock front bar. Continuous heavy attack damage with AoE conclusion (as opposed to hold, wait, and fire), and shock clench? Absolutely.

A couple questions regarding your suggestion (which is really freaking good, looking at those set bonuses). First, if I'm going with a 5/4/2 setup, doesn't that mean I'll need juli staves instead of random ones, so I can keep that set at 5 pieces on both bars? (No problem either way. Was planning to get three juli staves, anyway- 2 shock, 1 fire- to use, since my two random sharpened staves are now less useful.)

Second, since I can't see myself completing vet trials in the nearish future, how much of a hit will I be taking by using the blue IA/MD jewelry/set bonus, as opposed to the purple jewelry/set bonus of another set? I've been trying to find the values for the blue set bonuses for those, but haven't had much luck. The sad thing is that I have an IA necklace and now 2 pieces of MD jewelry that I could check (assuming the numbers for those are the right ones for the blue set bonus), but can't get on the servers right now because they're down for maintenance. The value I'm having the hardest time mentally quantifying to compare to others is that minor slayer buff, which I suppose would be the same even with blue jewelry, and isn't on any sets outside of those.

That said, this suggestion would just entail me finding 1 ring and 1 glove/boot/sash in MD, or 2 rings and 1 glove/boot/sash in IA, plus light ilambris shoulders, in addition to the shoulders+glove/boot/sash in Netch's Touch. That's really not bad.

dpencil1 · August 2017

@BrightOblivion
This is how a 5/4/2 setups usually looks:
Head - Monster (med/heavy)
Shoulder - Monster (med/heavy, opposite of Head)
Body - 5 piece set (all light)
Jewelry - 4 piece set
Front bar - 4th part of 4 piece set
Back bar - vMA staff

So usually, the 4th set bonus for the trials set would only be active on the front bar. This requires getting a good trials staff though, which can be a big grind. And also having a vMA staff with a good trait too. Assuming you don't have either...

Head/Shoulders - same as above
Body - 4 parts of the 5 piece + 1 of the 4 piece
Jewelry - 3 parts of th 4 piece
Front/Back bar - 5th part of the 5 piece

With either of these setups, having a med/heavy monster set pairing will mean you can easily swap out Julianos for other light armor sets without sacrificing the Undaunted Mettle passive. Netch would probably not be a good choice for you if you're running Blockade of Fire. If your total dps is made of up less than 75% lightning damage, Netch is a loss compared to Julianos. You need more like 85-100% lightning damage for it to really shine (and pets don't count, unfortunately). Spinner or Necro can be good replacement set, depending on the rest of your build.

Regarding blue trails jewelry, you'd probably be losing enough from the bonuses that purple Willpower would be practically identical. Minor Slayer used to be more potent than it is these days, because ZOS changed it from a multiplicative bonus to an addative bonus. So you end up actually getting less than the full 5% damage boost value you'd expect. Honestly, if you want trials jewelry, the best thing to do is to join a semi-casual guild that runs trials regularly. Most of the veterans of the group will have all their own gear by this point, so you can just tell them what you're looking for and they will likely just give you all the drop they get for that set. I literally got all the gold jewelry and 2 divines body pieces for IA in one run of hard mode vet Sanctum with my guild.

Some other combinations worth looking at:
Pet build: Necropotence + Maw of the Infernal + Willpower/Trials set
Julianos + Spinner/Sorrow/Netch/BSW/Necro with 1 monster set piece

At this point, I would think less about which combination nets the most raw dps. Instead think about which combination looks most appealing for the kind of skills, playstyle, and other choices (like traits/mundus/CP) it synergizes well with. The most important thing is to have fun playing your build, not to stress over an extra 1-2k dps. Especially in you're not running competitive vet trials often, 25-30k dps is more than sufficient for pretty much any content in the game, which you should be able to achieve with any of these combos.

BrightOblivion · August 2017

@dpencil1

The main reasons I don't expect to run vet trials in the nearish future are

1) A lack of experience. I've run Hel Ra three times, Aa and SO once (mostly stack and burn without serious explanation of boss mechanics), and Maw once. I'd like to get more reps before getting into higher difficulty.

2) My "gaming rig," if a masochist would call it that, is a 3 year old laptop that AMD stopped updating the graphics driver for over 400 days ago. (I know it needs an upgrade, but don't have the funds right now/other stuff takes precedent.) As a result, on those occasions where waves of mobs spawn in (like that fight in Maw where you pull the levers), stuff takes time to spawn in on my screen so I can properly attack it, and I'm left dropping AoE in that approximate location and screaming, "Go, pet, go! Please, for the love of God, attack the right thing! Not the trash mobs! The sun eater! Attack the sun eater!" For the most part, it only happens when we've just killed stuff and new waves are spawning (or in Cyro where my siege will be invisible for most of the fight, or I won't be able to see anything at all at outposts except for the structure). It's not a terrible thing in normal- I look like an idiot for 15-30 seconds, maybe a bit longer, possibly/probably shorter, and I might get popped- but in vet, it seems like it'd be quite unpleasant. Like "You idiot! You got us all killed!" unpleasant. Maybe I'm wrong, though. I'm just not sure.(Interestingly, while it's still a thing, it didn't seem as bad without everyone else's visual effects noise.)

I will keep that in mind for when I'm ready and able to do vet trials, though.

With all of the additive/multiplicative switching from one thing to another and patch to patch how do they decide which does which? And how do we keep track, since they don't include that little nugget in the item tooltip?

Thanks for all the info, question-answering, and advice. I have a lot to consider, look at, and think about, it looks like.