How important is Minor Slayer in dungeons/trials?

humpalicous · August 2017

Stam Sorc Redguard:

So I dropped my VO set for Hundings yesterday (don't have the VO rings, so can't combine it with Hundings and still get a monster set) and combined it with Spriggans. Needless to say, I was getting much better numbers against world bosses (don't have a target skele) than with VO, which is leads me to my question:

How important is Minor Slayer that VO provides in dungeons/trials? How would it compare if tested correctly in a dungeon, compared to Hunding+Spriggan?

Curious if anyone has any numbers. I've done some testing myself, but nearly as detailed as say Gilliam.

ValkynSketha · August 2017

It depends on how much penetration you have.

Cage_Lizardman · August 2017

If you had like 40k dps minor slayer is very important. But if it's more like 20k, you can easily replace it.

I don't think world bosses were affected by minor slayer, but target dummies are.

humpalicous · August 2017

On my own I can easily get 8k penetration

DRXHarbinger · August 2017

How much other stam penetration are you running with?

if you are the only stamina player then not a lot, if you have an Alkosh Tank and 1 other stam deeps with NMG or something like that then it will be beneficial to use it, the reason you are seeing better numbers in overland using other sets like Spriggan is you are getting a lot more penetration and have more raw damage, also Minor Slayer doesn't work on World bosses so are wasting that 5% whilst not gaining the near 4% crit from hundings.

Vaoh · August 2017

It's stronger than any typical Max Stat/Damage/whatever bonus, but not much more than that.

In HotR the gap between a Minor Slayer bonus and other damage bonuses will get smaller, but Minor Slayer will always be the best typical set bonus to have equipped.

Remember that Minor Slayer is percentage-based, amplifying the damage you already dish out. In a trial setting, all of the group buffs you get cause Minor Slayer to grant far more damage than in 4-man/solo content. I'd say Minor Slayer is basically too good to pass up in a trial unless you have an incredible setup you're using without it.

It won't be as important in dungeons. However, it is almost always best to run a Minor Slayer set.

RoyJade · August 2017

Remember also that minor slayer stack additively with other percentage increase (mostly cp). The more % increase you have, the less effective slayer is. On a templar for example, it's nearly useless because of te additive increase with jab's multiplier.
On the other hand, as some says before, the more damage you have and the more slayer will be effective, to the point where in trial it's the absolute best single 1-4 bonus you can have. In dungeon, it's depend of your total damage output.

You can deal without it, especially if you don't have the ring. The day you'll do endgame trials or competitive one,you'll need it, but you'll probably get the gold jewelries before.

Last point, on vMA you absolutely need it as a stam player, firstly because most mobs' defense are easily out-penetrated, and secondly because the 5cp VO is just soooo good for vMA, only beaten by a few builds who mostly have an another source of minor slayer.

humpalicous · August 2017

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

How much other stam penetration are you running with?

if you are the only stamina player then not a lot, if you have an Alkosh Tank and 1 other stam deeps with NMG or something like that then it will be beneficial to use it, the reason you are seeing better numbers in overland using other sets like Spriggan is you are getting a lot more penetration and have more raw damage, also Minor Slayer doesn't work on World bosses so are wasting that 5% whilst not gaining the near 4% crit from hundings.

I mainly pug so I never expect anyone else to help with penetration.

Regarding Minor Slayer not working on WB's, yes I know. I will test on Slimcraw tonight, was just thinking if anyone else had any numbers Minor Slayer in dungeons. I haven't done enough testing to know if more penetration is more effective than minor slayer

DRXHarbinger · August 2017

humpalicous wrote: »

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

How much other stam penetration are you running with?

if you are the only stamina player then not a lot, if you have an Alkosh Tank and 1 other stam deeps with NMG or something like that then it will be beneficial to use it, the reason you are seeing better numbers in overland using other sets like Spriggan is you are getting a lot more penetration and have more raw damage, also Minor Slayer doesn't work on World bosses so are wasting that 5% whilst not gaining the near 4% crit from hundings.

I mainly pug so I never expect anyone else to help with penetration.

Regarding Minor Slayer not working on WB's, yes I know. I will test on Slimcraw tonight, was just thinking if anyone else had any numbers Minor Slayer in dungeons. I haven't done enough testing to know if more penetration is more effective than minor slayer

Dungeon figures are hard to produce, but look at it this way if you're rend is ticking for 10k add minor slayer in and it'll tick for 10,500, Steel Tornado critting at low health for 9k it'll hit for 9450.

Add up a burst of say a crit rush, sup attack, dawnbreaker if the whole combo is worth 40k it'll be 42k.

Now that is if you have the exact same stamina and weapon damage and crit rating, which typically using minor slayer sets you will have slightly lower stats than going Spriggan and Hundings.

These figures above as in reality worth nothing in a dungeon, take a 42k combo and trash is instantly killed.

This is where it becomes important in trials when you've got an 84M health boss and takes a while to kill, all those tiny little extras make a huge difference when you've got 8DPS all reaping the benefits of it. as a singular player you won't really see it.
Exception being with VO is in VMA where it truly shines, although now I prefer War Machine+Quick Serpent and just crit rush+ onslaught and instakill everything and maintain Major slayer through out.

FakeFox · August 2017

Generally major slayer is strong, but not as strong as you might think. It's scales very poorly with other percent amps. In conclusion it doesn't do 5% of your total DPS, usually it's more like 3-4%.

capper123 · August 2017

these sets would really shine with better 5 piece stats, like ia right now, till the take it out. moondancer keep it the same
and add crit or spell damage bunus.

Merlin13KAGL · August 2017

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

humpalicous wrote: »

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

How much other stam penetration are you running with?

if you are the only stamina player then not a lot, if you have an Alkosh Tank and 1 other stam deeps with NMG or something like that then it will be beneficial to use it, the reason you are seeing better numbers in overland using other sets like Spriggan is you are getting a lot more penetration and have more raw damage, also Minor Slayer doesn't work on World bosses so are wasting that 5% whilst not gaining the near 4% crit from hundings.

I mainly pug so I never expect anyone else to help with penetration.

Regarding Minor Slayer not working on WB's, yes I know. I will test on Slimcraw tonight, was just thinking if anyone else had any numbers Minor Slayer in dungeons. I haven't done enough testing to know if more penetration is more effective than minor slayer

Dungeon figures are hard to produce, but look at it this way if you're rend is ticking for 10k add minor slayer in and it'll tick for 10,500, Steel Tornado critting at low health for 9k it'll hit for 9450.

Add up a burst of say a crit rush, sup attack, dawnbreaker if the whole combo is worth 40k it'll be 42k.

Now that is if you have the exact same stamina and weapon damage and crit rating, which typically using minor slayer sets you will have slightly lower stats than going Spriggan and Hundings.

These figures above as in reality worth nothing in a dungeon, take a 42k combo and trash is instantly killed.

This is where it becomes important in trials when you've got an 84M health boss and takes a while to kill, all those tiny little extras make a huge difference when you've got 8DPS all reaping the benefits of it. as a singular player you won't really see it.
Exception being with VO is in VMA where it truly shines, although now I prefer War Machine+Quick Serpent and just crit rush+ onslaught and instakill everything and maintain Major slayer through out.

Another way you can compare it to other sets involves translating the Spell Damage/Weapon damage equivalent it would give you.

This will vary by skill, of course, but this method will give you a rough idea compared to other sets.

Determine your 'effective' Spell Damage/Weapon Damage
- Take your buffed SD/WD (Major brutality/sorcery active)and multiply by 10.5.
- Add this value to your max stat.
Now take this value and multiply by .05
Compare the value above to other sets' bonuses.
- +Mag/Stam gets compared 1:1
- +SD/WD gets compared by dividing the above by the same 10.5 ratio.
- Whichever gives you the bigger number, that's the one you'll most benefit from.

This will give you the approximate equivalent of Slayer vs another set bonus.

Since most skills hover around the 10.5:1 ratio of stat-to-damage-equivalent, you can reasonably assume that a 5% increase in your effective SD/WD/stat will produce a 5% increase in overall damage. There are exceptions, like raw damage having a greater effect on Heavy and Light attacks (40:1 on those) but you get the idea.

Of course this is greatly simplified, but it's a quick down and dirty method to get you in the ballpark.

That way you don't necessarily have to compare individual skills.

idk · August 2017

ValkynSketha wrote: »

It depends on how much penetration you have.

True. A build that is far from optimized may experience improved dps moving to a set like Spriggans. That doesn't mean Spriggans is better. It could be Spriggans with VO would be even better. (TFS would be even better than Spriggans).

Optimization also includes CP.